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Gazi
Earl
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Topic: A question on Greeks Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 13:37 |
Can Greeks have blue eyes and blonde hair?I met someone like that but I used to think that they were a mediterrainean race
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Freedom is the recognition of necessity.-Friedrich Engels
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Cywr
King
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Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 13:42 |
Sure. Greekness isn't determined by hair or eye colour. It is
statiscitly less common there than elsewhere, but light hair and eyes
are found all over Europe and the middle east, and in parts of Central
Asia AFAIK. That it is more common in Scandinavia does not make it an
exclusivly Scandinavian trait, much to the dismay of the Nordicist
wierdos.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Teup
Earl
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Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 14:16 |
Originally posted by Cywr
That it is more common in Scandinavia does not make it an exclusivly Scandinavian trait, much to the dismay of the Nordicist wierdos. |
And Hitler
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Whatever you do, don't
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Cywr
King
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Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 14:46 |
Who was a shortassed swarthy Austrian, or would they say, Alpine?
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Arrrgh!!"
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Molossos
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Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:37 |
Gazi, why can't Greeks have such features? We belong to the Indo-European family after all and it is not strange for a Mediterranean to be like that. The question is if original Turks can be like that since they should have mongoloid anthropological characteristics. However, there are blonde people in Turkey...
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Yiannis
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Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:43 |
Originally posted by Molossos
it is not strange for a Mediterranean to be like that. |
Actually it's strange, it's just not impossible.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Kuu-ukko
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Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:49 |
Molossos, if a Greek happens to have blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with language. The term Indo-European isn't related to this question and shouldn't even be mentioned. We're talking about genes, not linguistics.
Edited by Kuu-ukko
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Phallanx
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Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 12:45 |
Original Turks have Mongoloid features, high cheel bones, yellowish skin...... but you can find blonde, blue eyed Turks.
Yet instead of that, you find it interesting that the european characteristics can be found on a european people
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Jazz
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 03:24 |
Isn't there a lot of slavic blood in today's Greeks?
When the Roman Danube frontier collapsed after the 602 mutiny, the
Slavs migrated en masse all the way down the Balkan peninsula, and only
coastal districts (except for eastern Thrace) remained in Roman
hands.
It was in the early 800s before peninsular Greece was again under
imperial rule, and even though there was a re-settlement campaign (from
Anatolia) the ethnic composition of the Greek mainland had changed
forever.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 04:13 |
That's Falmerayer's theory that has been rejected by the bulk of scientific community. "Sklaviniae", did not have a lasting or major effect (but they surelly had some). For more info try google...
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Jazz
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 04:23 |
Interesting....then I stand corrected, though I have read it in different sources. Either way there is some Slavic impact.
Anyways, then did anything happen during the time the mainland slipped
from imperial control? And what about about the effects of the
re-settlement campaign in the 9th century?
Edited by Jazz
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Yiannis
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 05:33 |
In short (I'm short in time, but it's indeed an interesting topic). Slavs could not take any fortified cities. They limited themselves in the countryside of Northern Greece and made incursions all the way to the Peloponnese. Most of them were pushed out later on, but other have stayed and mixed with the local population. In the course of time they were totally Hellenized. What reminds this period even to this day are some pleacenames all over the Greek mainland countryside.
It has to be made clear, that genetically there's no pure population anywhere in the world. Even more for the Balkans, which is a crossroad of civilizations and a melting pot of people.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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eaglecap
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 16:26 |
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko
Molossos, if a Greek happens to have blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with language. The term Indo-European isn't related to this question and shouldn't even be mentioned. We're talking about genes, not linguistics. |
Indo European speaking people were white and many had blonde hair and blue eyes. The whole Indo European concept is very theoretical and nobody really has proven the original homeland of these tribes.
My Papoo had blondish hair and blue eyes, he was from Thrace. I had blonde hair when I was younger but I could have gotten that from my German side.
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Cywr
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:32 |
Indo European speaking people were white and many had blonde hair and blue eyes. |
How do we know this?
We don't even know where they came from, how the hell can we speculate on what they looked like?
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Arrrgh!!"
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Phallanx
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:56 |
As Yannis said Falmerayer's theory that has been rejected.
Of course the "modern Hellines aren't a pure "race" but he available data does demonstrate that any potential introgression
into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the
indigenous people. Hence, Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved.
I do not focus on the suggestion that we are not the righful heirs as Falmerayer suggests, but
on his suggestion that the ancient Hellines underwent a natural
extermination by consecutive waves of nomadic peoples and that what has
come to be present-day Hellas is totally inhabited by Slavs, Albanians,
and Hellinic-speaking Byzantine populations that have moved here from
Anatolia.
Now as for the Slavs, I think there is some kind of mix up here.
The population wrongly considered to be Slavs are the Arvanites (also
considered by some alleged historians to be Albanians), and the Vlachs
also considered to be some kind of non-Hellinic people. All this, even
though all historic records prove the opposite .
The Arvanites
Were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos.
Without getting into the details of 16th-18th cent. I'll only mention
the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he
mentions:
"The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner"
and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared :
"The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines"
The Vlachs:
The theory of their origins to be somewhere in C.Europe, mention that
this "migration" allegedly took place in (depends on the source) either
during the 7th, 9th, 10th,12th, I've even seen a tzech source mention
17th cent.
But unfortunately for all that attempt to claim the Vlachs as their own
people that "migrated" towards Hellas, the first written evidence of
the Vlah' s language we have, is that of the Byzantine collumnists,
Theophanis is and Theophylactus (579 A.D.) while the word Vlahs
(Armani) was mentioned for the first time in 976 A.D. from Kedrinos.
You see Vlahs were not known with this name but with the word
"Armani or Aromanoi". This word derives from the "Romanus lives" and it is related
to the decree of Karakala (Edictum Antonianium), 212 A.D. According to
this decree, the right of the Roman citizen was passed on to all the
residents of the whole Roman province.
If we were to accept that they were a foreign (non-Hellinic) people,
why is there no mention of them in various Turkish or European sources,
as we find the Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians clearly being
destinguished from the Hellines of Byzantium?
See: Pouqueville (Voyage en Grece) Leak (Travels in Northern Greece),
Heuzey (1858) Kouzinery (Voyages en Macedoine) Berard (Turkish
domination and Hellenism), Wace- Thomson (Nomads of Balkans)
Slavs (Sklavines)
Anyway, most sources agree on the Slavic enclaves
"Sklavinies" and we do find Byzantine sources mentioning them
especially in west Macedonia and Thessaly. But these sources also
mention the integration of the Slav into the Byzantine system (not the
Hellinic society), by hellenising them. Many Byzantine sources mention
military expeditions against the Slavs in the Hellinic area, which
started from the mid-7th c and resulted in the gradual reestablishment
of Byzantine authority.
But there are also many souces :
Maria Nystazopoulou - Pelekidou, "Les Slaves dans l' Empire Byzantin",
The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington
D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367, with the
bibliography and the quotation of the sources; for the policy of
Byzantium, see p. 355.
Mention that, not only did Byzantium attempt to subjugate the new
settlers but also forcibly transfered Slavic populations to Anatolia in
order to achieve 2 things. 1) Slavic element in the Hellenic area was
arithmetically weakened, and 2) assimilation was facilitated, since
Slavs who were transferred to Anatolia found themselves among a
flourishing and numerous Hellinic population.
This demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, that is, Hellinic
populations from Anatolia were transplanted into Slavic populations
("epi tas Sklabinias") in order to reinforce the Hellinic element in
these areas. Thus we learn, for example, that emperor Nicephorus
(802-811) established in the northern Hellinic area populations which
he transferred from all administrative districts ("ek pantos thematos")
of Anatolia.
Beside the measures taken by the Byzantines, it is intering enough to
note that during the time of Stefan Dusan (1331-1354), the Serbs
expanded their domination into Makedonia but there is not one source to
mention that the conquered population was Slavic. The Serbian expansion
is mentioned in contemporary sources, as a conquest of Hellinic regions.
It is also remarkable that a few years later, during the first siege of
Thessaloniki by the Turks (1383-1387), King Manuel Palaeologus, in his
speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki", urges the
inhabitants to fight to death, fot this is what their historical
tradition decrees: "because we are Romioi (= Byzantine Hellines) and
our country is the one of Philip and Alexander".
This means that he, as
well as the inhabitants, were conscious of the historical continuity of
Hellenism and of their Hellinic origin which had its roots in ancient
times.
See B. Laourdas, Ο "Συμβουλευτ ;ικός πρός τούς Θεσσαλονικ είς" τού Μανουήλ
Κο_ 6;νηνού [= Manuel Komnenos' speech "Admonition to the people of
Thessaloniki"], Makedonika 3 (1953-55), p. 297, 21-22; Cf. also p. 291,
1.
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To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Atourian
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Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 22:14 |
Consider that if both blonde hair and blue eyes are multiple-alle
traits and recessive for the most part they are not especially common
traits. I've never seen a Greek with those features. And with contact
lenses and hair colorings factored in I just give up.
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Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; the end of the world is evidently approaching.
- Assyrian clay tablet 2800 B.C
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Kuu-ukko
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Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 07:50 |
eaglecap, there is no gene for languages. Besides, how the heck aren't Persians or Indians blonde if Indo-Europeans? The people who originally spoke proto-Indo-European MAY have resembled southern Russians (the alleged homeland proto-IE), but don't know that for sure. In my opinion, proto-IE-speaking people can't have been blonde, since it isn't common to have blonde even today.
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Cywr
King
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Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 09:04 |
I've never seen a Greek with those features. |
I have. Not common, but present none-the-less.
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Arrrgh!!"
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aknc
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Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 11:03 |
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko
eaglecap, there is no gene for languages. Besides, how the heck aren't Persians or Indians blonde if Indo-Europeans? The people who originally spoke proto-Indo-European MAY have resembled southern Russians (the alleged homeland proto-IE), but don't know that for sure. In my opinion, proto-IE-speaking people can't have been blonde, since it isn't common to have blonde even today. |
Not languages.Most have the common ancestry
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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
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eaglecap
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Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 23:49 |
Originally posted by Kuu-ukko
eaglecap, there is no gene for languages. Besides, how the heck aren't Persians or Indians blonde if Indo-Europeans? The people who originally spoke proto-Indo-European MAY have resembled southern Russians (the alleged homeland proto-IE), but don't know that for sure. In my opinion, proto-IE-speaking people can't have been blonde, since it isn't common to have blonde even today. |
I did not say that but all the archaeological evidence I have seen points to the fact that these Indo European tribes were white, we are only talking about 5-6,000 years ago. This whole concept is based on theory so it has not been proven. Look at the Tarim Basin mummies, they had blonde and red hair. The indo European tribes who migrated into India and Persia have intermixed with other ethnic groups since then. But, if you look at the cast system in India the Brahma caste tend to have fairer skin.
The Indo European tribes (Greek speaking) migrated into the southern Balkans also intermixed with pre Greek people we call; Helladic, Cycladic and Minoan. Of course, we know that the Balkans have been invaded many times since then.
My papoo had blondish hair and blue eyes. Funny, no body on my Anglo side had blue eyes, that I know of.
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