A question on Greeks
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
Forum Discription: Topics on archaeology and anthropology
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2891
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 16:17
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Topic: A question on Greeks
Posted By: Gazi
Subject: A question on Greeks
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 13:37
Can Greeks have blue eyes and blonde hair?I met someone like that but I used to think that they were a mediterrainean race ------------- “Freedom is the recognition of necessity.”-Friedrich Engels |
Replies:
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 13:42
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Sure. Greekness isn't determined by hair or eye colour. It is
statiscitly less common there than elsewhere, but light hair and eyes
are found all over Europe and the middle east, and in parts of Central
Asia AFAIK. That it is more common in Scandinavia does not make it an
exclusivly Scandinavian trait, much to the dismay of the Nordicist
wierdos.
-------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Teup
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 14:16
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And Hitler ------------- Whatever you do, don't |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 14:46
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Who was a shortassed swarthy Austrian, or would they say, Alpine?
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Molossos
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:37
| Gazi, why can't Greeks have such features? We belong to the Indo-European family after all and it is not strange for a Mediterranean to be like that. The question is if original Turks can be like that since they should have mongoloid anthropological characteristics. However, there are blonde people in Turkey... |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:43
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Actually it's strange, it's just not impossible.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 09:49
| Molossos, if a Greek happens to have blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with language. The term Indo-European isn't related to this question and shouldn't even be mentioned. We're talking about genes, not linguistics. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2005 at 12:45
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Original Turks have Mongoloid features, high cheel bones, yellowish skin...... but you can find blonde, blue eyed Turks. Yet instead of that, you find it interesting that the european characteristics can be found on a european people |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 03:24
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Isn't there a lot of slavic blood in today's Greeks? When the Roman Danube frontier collapsed after the 602 mutiny, the Slavs migrated en masse all the way down the Balkan peninsula, and only coastal districts (except for eastern Thrace) remained in Roman hands. It was in the early 800s before peninsular Greece was again under imperial rule, and even though there was a re-settlement campaign (from Anatolia) the ethnic composition of the Greek mainland had changed forever. ------------- http://www.forums.internationalhockey.net/index.php?/index.php?referrerid=8 - International Hockey Forums |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 04:13
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That's Falmerayer's theory that has been rejected by the bulk of scientific community. "Sklaviniae", did not have a lasting or major effect (but they surelly had some). For more info try google...
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Jazz
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 04:23
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Interesting....then I stand corrected, though I have read it in different sources. Either way there is some Slavic impact. Anyways, then did anything happen during the time the mainland slipped from imperial control? And what about about the effects of the re-settlement campaign in the 9th century? ------------- http://www.forums.internationalhockey.net/index.php?/index.php?referrerid=8 - International Hockey Forums |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 05:33
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In short (I'm short in time, but it's indeed an interesting topic). Slavs could not take any fortified cities. They limited themselves in the countryside of Northern Greece and made incursions all the way to the Peloponnese. Most of them were pushed out later on, but other have stayed and mixed with the local population. In the course of time they were totally Hellenized. What reminds this period even to this day are some pleacenames all over the Greek mainland countryside. It has to be made clear, that genetically there's no pure population anywhere in the world. Even more for the Balkans, which is a crossroad of civilizations and a melting pot of people.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 16:26
Indo European speaking people were white and many had blonde hair and blue eyes. The whole Indo European concept is very theoretical and nobody really has proven the original homeland of these tribes. My Papoo had blondish hair and blue eyes, he was from Thrace. I had blonde hair when I was younger but I could have gotten that from my German side. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:32
How do we know this? We don't even know where they came from, how the hell can we speculate on what they looked like? ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 17:56
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As Yannis said Falmerayer's theory that has been rejected. Of course the "modern Hellines aren't a pure "race" but he available data does demonstrate that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence, Fallmerayer's thesis has been disproved. I do not focus on the suggestion that we are not the righful heirs as Falmerayer suggests, but on his suggestion that the ancient Hellines underwent a natural extermination by consecutive waves of nomadic peoples and that what has come to be present-day Hellas is totally inhabited by Slavs, Albanians, and Hellinic-speaking Byzantine populations that have moved here from Anatolia. Now as for the Slavs, I think there is some kind of mix up here. The population wrongly considered to be Slavs are the Arvanites (also considered by some alleged historians to be Albanians), and the Vlachs also considered to be some kind of non-Hellinic people. All this, even though all historic records prove the opposite . The Arvanites Were a Hellinic race of people from the area of Epirus, their very name comes from the ancient Hellinic district of Arvonos. Without getting into the details of 16th-18th cent. I'll only mention the letter of Jacomo Barbarrigo towards the Germans in 1479 where he mentions: "The Arvanites and the Hellines are nothing more than the same people that hate every foreigner" and the Venetian Senate in 1471 that declared : "The major part of our mercenary troops are Hellines and Arvanites Hellines" The Vlachs: The theory of their origins to be somewhere in C.Europe, mention that this "migration" allegedly took place in (depends on the source) either during the 7th, 9th, 10th,12th, I've even seen a tzech source mention 17th cent. But unfortunately for all that attempt to claim the Vlachs as their own people that "migrated" towards Hellas, the first written evidence of the Vlah' s language we have, is that of the Byzantine collumnists, Theophanis is and Theophylactus (579 A.D.) while the word Vlahs (Armani) was mentioned for the first time in 976 A.D. from Kedrinos. You see Vlahs were not known with this name but with the word "Armani or Aromanoi". This word derives from the "Romanus lives" and it is related to the decree of Karakala (Edictum Antonianium), 212 A.D. According to this decree, the right of the Roman citizen was passed on to all the residents of the whole Roman province. If we were to accept that they were a foreign (non-Hellinic) people, why is there no mention of them in various Turkish or European sources, as we find the Slavs, Bulgarians and Albanians clearly being destinguished from the Hellines of Byzantium? See: Pouqueville (Voyage en Grece) Leak (Travels in Northern Greece), Heuzey (1858) Kouzinery (Voyages en Macedoine) Berard (Turkish domination and Hellenism), Wace- Thomson (Nomads of Balkans) Slavs (Sklavines) Anyway, most sources agree on the Slavic enclaves "Sklavinies" and we do find Byzantine sources mentioning them especially in west Macedonia and Thessaly. But these sources also mention the integration of the Slav into the Byzantine system (not the Hellinic society), by hellenising them. Many Byzantine sources mention military expeditions against the Slavs in the Hellinic area, which started from the mid-7th c and resulted in the gradual reestablishment of Byzantine authority. But there are also many souces : Maria Nystazopoulou - Pelekidou, "Les Slaves dans l' Empire Byzantin", The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers (Washington D.C., August 3-8, 1986) New York 1986, pp. 345-367, with the bibliography and the quotation of the sources; for the policy of Byzantium, see p. 355. Mention that, not only did Byzantium attempt to subjugate the new settlers but also forcibly transfered Slavic populations to Anatolia in order to achieve 2 things. 1) Slavic element in the Hellenic area was arithmetically weakened, and 2) assimilation was facilitated, since Slavs who were transferred to Anatolia found themselves among a flourishing and numerous Hellinic population. This demographic measure was even applied vice-versa, that is, Hellinic populations from Anatolia were transplanted into Slavic populations ("epi tas Sklabinias") in order to reinforce the Hellinic element in these areas. Thus we learn, for example, that emperor Nicephorus (802-811) established in the northern Hellinic area populations which he transferred from all administrative districts ("ek pantos thematos") of Anatolia. Beside the measures taken by the Byzantines, it is intering enough to note that during the time of Stefan Dusan (1331-1354), the Serbs expanded their domination into Makedonia but there is not one source to mention that the conquered population was Slavic. The Serbian expansion is mentioned in contemporary sources, as a conquest of Hellinic regions. It is also remarkable that a few years later, during the first siege of Thessaloniki by the Turks (1383-1387), King Manuel Palaeologus, in his speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki", urges the inhabitants to fight to death, fot this is what their historical tradition decrees: "because we are Romioi (= Byzantine Hellines) and our country is the one of Philip and Alexander". This means that he, as well as the inhabitants, were conscious of the historical continuity of Hellenism and of their Hellinic origin which had its roots in ancient times. See B. Laourdas, Ο "Συμβουλευτ ;ικός πρός τούς Θεσσαλονικ είς" τού Μανουήλ Κο_ 6;νηνού [= Manuel Komnenos' speech "Admonition to the people of Thessaloniki"], Makedonika 3 (1953-55), p. 297, 21-22; Cf. also p. 291, 1. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Atourian
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 22:14
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Consider that if both blonde hair and blue eyes are multiple-alle
traits and recessive for the most part they are not especially common
traits. I've never seen a Greek with those features. And with contact
lenses and hair colorings factored in I just give up. ------------- Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; the end of the world is evidently approaching. - Assyrian clay tablet 2800 B.C |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 07:50
| eaglecap, there is no gene for languages. Besides, how the heck aren't Persians or Indians blonde if Indo-Europeans? The people who originally spoke proto-Indo-European MAY have resembled southern Russians (the alleged homeland proto-IE), but don't know that for sure. In my opinion, proto-IE-speaking people can't have been blonde, since it isn't common to have blonde even today. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 09:04
I have. Not common, but present none-the-less. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: akýncý
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 11:03
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Not languages.Most have the common ancestry ------------- "I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!" |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2005 at 23:49
I did not say that but all the archaeological evidence I have seen points to the fact that these Indo European tribes were white, we are only talking about 5-6,000 years ago. This whole concept is based on theory so it has not been proven. Look at the Tarim Basin mummies, they had blonde and red hair. The indo European tribes who migrated into India and Persia have intermixed with other ethnic groups since then. But, if you look at the cast system in India the Brahma caste tend to have fairer skin. The Indo European tribes (Greek speaking) migrated into the southern Balkans also intermixed with pre Greek people we call; Helladic, Cycladic and Minoan. Of course, we know that the Balkans have been invaded many times since then. My papoo had blondish hair and blue eyes. Funny, no body on my Anglo side had blue eyes, that I know of. 
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Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 01:23
| Well, true, but the Indo-European invasion didn't bring a massive change to the European gene pool (according to Luigi Cavalla-Storsa or something, can't remember the name correctly), under 10%. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 01:30
Com'on, the IE theory is nothing more than a myth that has crumbled by archeologic finds. There has never again been any kind of attempt to question archeologic and antropologic finds with some manipulation of linguistics. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 01:40
He may differ with you!! 
In Search of the Indo-Europeans Author: J. P. Mallory Can you recommend any recent books that support your views? Also: Coming of the Greeks Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East Robert Drews |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 05:31
Not sure that there is anything to recommend since all this is still theoretical and nothing has actually been proven beyond doubt. As you know, the very basis of this "thoery" is continuously contradicted by its very supporters. They original dates for these "invasions" to have taken place were originally estimated between the 2nd and 1st millenium BC, but thanks to the continuous archeologic finds that prove the continuety of civilization in various areas, (I'm absolutely sure about the Balkans) they attempted to raise the date to the 3rd and after later finds to the 4th and then 5th millenium. (see a patern here??) Let's take the area of Hellas and the Balkans as an example (since it's the only example I happen to have proof of) The alleged IE brought with them some supreme technology that the "original" populations had NO knowledge of, some of this knowledge is among others horse-taming, pottery, metalworking ........ and of course the language. All of these alledgedly brought by the IE "new" technologies, have been proved to have existed in Hellas and I think in the area of Serbia at least since the 6th millenium all based on archeologic finds. Not to mention horse-taming that is proved to have been accomplished by the 7th from the stone carvings found at Pangeios mountain that do not only depict a horse but also a rider. It is true that there are some similarities among various languages, but the IE theory isn’t as simple as presented, where we simply find common or very similar words used that were allegedly given to the rest of the world by the invisibe IE race.. We must also take under consideration the fact that in order to "invent" the IE origin as G.Munnen(sp?) tells us, they have been comparing Sanscrit of the 1st mill., Hellinic of the 6th BC, Latin of the 2ndBC, Gothic of 4th AD....... so as anyone can see this can't stand. A reasonable question would be, how did the Minoans and Myceneans that already had a written script almost before Vedic has benn estimated to have been used and thus a language come into contact with these alleged IE with the allegedly supreme knowledge I recall reading of a French scholar Bufarteng(sp?) that suggested, that since writing hadn't been yet invented we would expect that the historians of India and Hellas would have mentioned something in their written history (at least the Hellines that had one) but not only are such records totally abcent in historic records but we find absolutely no mention in their myths and traditions of such people. So we come to the conveniently invented a Dorian invasion (according on who you quote you find a different date), totally ignoring the fact that NO historic text nor myth mention an invasion of Dorians but a return of the Heracledes!!! All texts speak of "KATHODOS" that clearly means "coming back, to return" and we know that the Herakledes were a Hellinic people decendants of Herakles that returned to their Dorian homeland in Peloponnese. We also find Xenophon's work titled "KATHODOS TON MYRION" (sorry but don't know the latin or english title of this) that also gives the meaning of "return" ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 08:07
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Calm down man. I think this also proves, that language can change whether there is a continuity in civilisation or not. So yes, Greece DID have technological civilisations even before the nomadic barbarians came (IE's). (I recall that the coming of the IE's was even remembered in Hellenic Greece, by a philosofer or something.) Besides, I don't know any professors have denied the existence of the IE language family. Thank you and goodbye. |
Where have I said the IE's were superior in anything? I'd think them as violent barbarians more like. I am just trying to prove, that linguistics and genetics aren't the same, with the fact that IE's didn't bring anything new to Europe, not even genes, so IE's can't have had blonde hair or blue eyes as their genetic features, since they aren't dominant features even today. Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 11:54
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The linguistic part of the whole IE thing is sound, its the
archeologists who want to be the ones to earn fame for finding the
'real IE' who are at fault, not he linguistics.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: iskenderani
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 12:50
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Greek mtDNA Some UNDENIABLES scientific facts , about Greeks and their origin , for those who r curious.... My best regards.. Isk. |
is inherited from one's mother and is thus a good way to establish the maternal ancestry of a population. Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 13:23
You must have misunderstood, (maybe my fault) I never rejected the existance of a IE language or some similarities that some have attempted to present as to have originated from one proto-language, what I do reject is the origin of this language. I would love to see the name of this philosopher or the text would actually be even better, since I can assure you that there is no such thing. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 15:34
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Well what do you think is the origin of the language (we are talking proto-IE, if I'm not completely mistaken?)? What do you think on the "refugium-theory", which Pavel Dolukhanov supports? Well, I might have misunderstood the text. It was a very old book from the 30's. I just got the impression. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 16:49
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Not really familiar to him nor to his theory. What's it all about?
------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 12:16
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It's a theory, that there were three refugium's in Europe during the
last Ice Age: Ukraine, Iberia and Balkan. There were three language
families, each within its own refugium: Uralic in Ukraine,
Franco-Cantabrian (predecessor language family of Basque) in Iberia,
and Indo-European in Balkan. There is a thing called language status,
agriculture being higher than hunter-gathering. The IE's brought
agriculture to Europe via the Balkans, which they had learned from the
Middle East. The Uralics, who wanted to rise in status, changed their
language to IE, creating the Germanic languages. Some
Franco-Cantabrians did it aswell, creating Celto-Italic languages. Its something like that in a nutshell. I'm not sure if it is correct though, since I'm not a supporter of it, so you'd better not ask me  . I found out I have bad memory, it was actually in a web site I attend. The ancient Greek philosopher (got the spelling right...) was called Hesiodos. He speaks about a tribe, called "the Golden tribe". This is usually thought to be a pre-IE civilisation, before the Akhaians, Ionians and Dorians came to Greece. After them came five tribes:"the Silver tribe", then "the Copper tribe", the last being a violent one. Then came the Akhaians, whose "only concerns were the sinnical, violent acts of Ares." Hesiodos calls the Mycenean culture these people created "the fourth tribe". They were peaceful and highly advanced. The "fifth tribe" of Hesiodos was that of the Dorians. Hesiodos writes: "I wish I didn't belong to this fifth tribe. I wish I'd died earlier or born sooner... man robs another man's city...justice is the same as power, and honour has ceased to exist." Its from Riane Eisler's "the Chalice and the Sword", p. 98. The IE-invasion brought devastating consequences to Europe, which had been non-militaristic and peaceful (mother goddess dominant, no significant weapon findings found). Hesiodos' text would show, that the era after the IE's was chaotic for centuries, and left a scar in the people. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 17:02
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I did a little search on Riane Eisler since I didn't know of this and
my results helped me understand why. This "theory" isn't very respected
from what I saw, even though some sites mentioned the book as a
best-seller. Weird if you ask me. What you mention is from Hesiods "Works and Days" and has nothing to do with invasions since there is no invasion mentioned but has to do strictly with the beliefs of the creation of man by presenting a continuous degrade of human values. If you read the text you'll find that the "golden race" can actually be compared to what is considered as heaven by Christianity. Since Hesiod mentions : "And they lived like gods We could also look at what Socrates has to say about this "golden race" in Plato's Cratylus: "-Why, I think he means that the http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=golden%20race&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - golden race was not made of gold, but was good and beautiful. And I regard it as a proof of this that he further says we are the iron race. -Don't you suppose that if anyone of our day is good, http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Hesiod&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Hesiod would say he was of that http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=golden%20race&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - golden race ? -But the good are the wise, are they not? -This, then, I think, is what he certainly means to say of the spirits: because they were wise and knowing ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dah%2Fmones&bytepos=64405&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0172" onclick="m()" target="morph - daêmones ) he called them spirits ( http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dai%2Fmones&bytepos=64405&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0172" onclick="m()" target="morph - daimones ) and in the old form of our language the two words are the same......." Cratylus (398a-398e) So we find that the "golden race" according to Socrates has to do with virtue and wisdom, If we look at Hesiod's text we find that they are virtuous, "foreign" to evil, age, violence and were honoured after death. If we continue to "examine" Hesiod's text we find that the chance of his presenting some invasion becomes more and more obscure. We come to the inferior to the Golden "Silver race" that Hesiod describes as (mega nepios) "a big child/he who acts childish", that did not respect the Gods, continuously sinned and wronged eachother.So Zeus did away with them. But again these even though inferior to the Golden are free to evil, violence and they too are honoured after death even if that is in the underworld. Now if you add what the Egyptian priest told Solon in Plato's Timaeus: "that the exploits of this city in olden days, the record of which had perished through time and the destruction of its inhabitants, were great and marvellous, the greatest of all being one which it would be proper" (Timaeus 20e) and "“O http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Solon&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Solon , http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Solon&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Solon , you http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Greeks&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Greeks are always children: there is not such a thing as an old http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Greek&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman" style=" - Greek .” And on hearing this he asked, “What mean you by this saying?” And the priest replied, “You are young in soul, every one of you. For therein you possess not a single belief that is ancient and derived from old tradition, nor yet one science that is hoary with age." (Timaeus 22b) Don't these 2 quotes give the exact meaning of Hesiod's "Works and Days"? It's obvious that both texts mention the degenerating values of their society their memory, being free of violence, evil, being honoured after death, all lost, due to the Gods in Hesiod and in Timaeus by fire and water. (remember the deluge of Deukalion?) Anyway, I think you get the point. There is no mention of any kind of invasion in the text. If you're interested in reading it yourself, here's a link: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3At ext%3A1999.01.0132 ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2005 at 11:33
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A very nice article about this question:
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Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 04:50
Funny, but this is absolutely not true, original turks have european and caucausian features, ie high cheekbones and coloured eyes and white skin, this is the main characteristic that differs them from the mongols.. those that intermixed ended up with european features but with a a more chinese type face.. eyes nose.. (eg Kazaks,Uzbeks) ------------- |
Posted By: Kenaney
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 05:33
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My father/grandfather are "kipchak Turks" who are green eyed Turks living in mountans in Kazachstan, but know were living in Afyon/Bolvadin/Özburun. There's lots of Kipchak Turks living in Turkey for example Tarkan... ------------- OUT OF LIMIT |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 06:22
It may be true that they are a "mixture" of people as we clearly see today but genetics prove that mongoloid genes and anthropology that mongoloid features were more than obvious. "To what extent are the Anatolians descended from Central Asian Turks? The study of http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14586639 - Cinnioglu et al. (2004) discovered an occurrence of 3.4% of Mongoloid Y-chromosomal haplogroups in Anatolia (haplogroups Q, O, and C)." "According to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15024688 - Tambets et al. (2004) the occurrence of Mongoloid haplogroups in present-day Central Asian Turkic Altaic speakers (Altaians) is at least 40%, with an additional 10% which might belong to haplogroup O which was not tested in this study. According to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12145751 - Zerjal et al. (2002) this percentage is for various Turkic speakers: Kyrgyz (22%), Dungans (32%), Uyghurs (33%), Kazaks (86%), Uzbeks (18%)." "It is clear that the percentage of Mongoloid ancestry among the Turkic speakers is very variable, yet it is clear that the Proto-Turks must have been partially Mongoloid in lieu of the fact that all current Turkic speakers possess some Mongoloid admixture. The average of the six Central Asian population samples listed above is 38.5% and may serve as a first-order estimate of the paternal contribution of early Turks, who (judging by their modern descendants in Central Asia) were more Caucasoid paternally and more Mongoloid maternally." "It would thus appear that the Turkish element is a minority one in the composition of the Anatolians, but it is by no means negligible." http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-turkish-are-anato lians.html ----------------- An article on the origin of the Nogays from the Caucasus (Phylogeographic Analysis of Mitochondrial DNA in the Nogays: A Strong Mixture of Maternal Lineages from Eastern and Western Eurasia, http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Bermisheva2004.pdf - pdf ) a convenient characterization of the mtDNA of a sample of 218 Turks, taken from Richards 2000 ( http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/%7Evincent/papers/richards_2000.pdf - pdf ). In this sample, the following non-Caucasoid haplogroups were detected:
We know of the fact that the Turks at some time during their "migrations" from C.Asia had "settled" at what is known as Russian Siberia is enough to understand exactly how they obtained the Caucasian features. No objection to that. But the fact that they left C.Asia at some time indicates that they were predominantly Mongoilian. Here are some examples of Ottoman Sultans I found. If you ask me they they do have Mongoloid features.      ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 07:37
|
... ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 08:22
|
Actually Russians today strive to prove anything, from the beginning of
civilization to connections to various people. I've seen no non-Russian
source to support their theories as strongly as they do by rejecting
any other "version" even though they seem more probable. I don't understand were you find the 5000yr date and I never mentioned any Russian people (as we mean tody) . I said : " during their "migrations" from C.Asia had "settled" at what is known as Russian Siberia is enough to understand exactly how they obtained the Caucasian features." So you must have misunderstood. I don't understand what "his personal cultural views" have to do with genetic research and of course he'd select a reletively small number, did you probably expect he'd use genetic results of 70.000.000 Turks???? Every single research is done in a similar way, they select a number of "specimens" from North, another from South....... and so on. It is impossible to compare the whole population. As for Makedonians, Spartans and Athenians (not to mention the rest) not being the ancestors of the "modern" Hellines. I suggest you read Isk's post above and when you're done, should you feel you need more info, I'll be more than happy to present Y-chromosomes, anthropologic reports, you name it, you got it. I've heard of a Negroid genes theory but Arabic????? Please.  ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 09:16
|
... ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 12:28
|
The "Afanasevs and the Andronovs" you mention, I must admit this is the
first I've ever heard of them, maybe some spelling mistake prevents my
finding any info on them cause all I came up with were these used as
last names and not to describe any kind of "tribe/people". As for DNA, everything is proven to have it's origin, without actually knowing alot about DNA, MtDNA, Y....... In any simple search we find that: "The Haplogroup I, I1, and I1a lineages are nearly completely restricted to northwestern Europe. These would most likely have been common within Viking populations. One lineage of this group extends down into central Europe." "I1a with ancestry in the British Isles and 22 at DYS390 then more likely Saxon origin. If I1a and 23 at DYS390 then more likely Norse origin" "The ancestors of Haplogroup I (defined by the P19 and M170 genetic markers) arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago and are associated with the Gravettian culture." "Haplogroup "I" is found in Central and Eastern Europe, but also accounts for almost all the HG2s in Northern Europe and the British Isles." So as you see scientists have mananged to "uncover" where and when these "elements" came from. So there would be no chance of any Russian naming the genes Arabic when they are of Mongoloid orign. Unless he knew even less than I do, which wouldn't make him much of a scientist I remeber there was a member here, not sure about his name though, I think it was Sarukin (or something like that), that could really help out on the DNA part of this discussion. Anyway, on your example of living in Turkey, that is the whole point. To state you are a totally pure nation is at least stupid, which was the reason I posted the pics. Every single "people" have been influenced, assimilated others...... ''' in general, not totally "pure", but neither can such an instance be rejected when based on scientific evidence, such as DNA and anthropologic finds. Putting up one pic in comparison to a statue means nothing. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 12:50
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.... ------------- |
Posted By: köroglu
Date Posted: 13-May-2005 at 22:54
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There were even blonde huns... WHY DO YOU GREEKS TRY TO GET GLORY WITH WRONG RACISM?? ------------- |
Posted By: Gorgi Makedonski
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 19:08
|
first, hi all second, there are several DNS studies who disagree with your statement more of them say you have sub-saharian-asian origin but about the topic: i saw blond greek, but he had painted hair, but it would NOT BE A MIRACLE if there are some natural blond greeks, like some1 wrote, the people who live or come from Balkan are so much mixed, that it is stuppid to search for "purity" @ relpic:
wasn´t it "Macedonians" ?
& you forgot to mention that Macedonians & Greeks have very litle common, exept few times they made aliance vs common enemies
but i dont want to flood with unendless "paste-ings" on my first post greetz all
------------- I breath Oxygen - you? |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 20:06
The several DNS studies from FYROM which you obviously mean, are considered jokes just like the people who still use them, since they have been refuted to death.
NEWSFLASH!!!!! The usual guiberish that you guys are copy/pasting from your usual propagandistic site, in all the forums that you participate, has been leveled from serious scientists. Too bad for you!!
Actually ancient Macedonians were part of Hellenic civilization unlike the FYROMIANs who were part of Slavic civilization.
How's that? All that you FYROMIAN guys are doing in forums is nothing else than copying/pasting stuff from your propagandistic sites!!! Ah, You are so kind that you skipped the flood of propaganda 'paste-ings' from your first post!!! Its sth unusual for you (plural) guys over there. Just out of curiocity...after Homer and Gorgi which is it gonna be the next name of the famous Makedonski family and that we will have the honour to meet here?
|
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 20:19
Please don't waste my time. I do mean it with the best intentions. ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 14-May-2005 at 20:31
|
I went through the article you provided and a couple more about Alexeev's theory. Isn't this all about IE origins??? (correct me if I'm wrong) And if so, what makes this correct since I've found that a large number of scolars find it totally incorrect. Just so you understand what I mean, the Institute of history and archaeology.Ural brunch of Russian Academy of Sciences.Chelyabinsk.Russia in an article I found states that : "Cultures of Scithian and Sarmatian world were not forming on the basis of the Late Bronze Age cultures placed from Dnieper river to the Altai. So called “Andronovo culture” is an archaeological myth. There are no features of “Steppe cultures” in cultures of India and Iran. And there are no Finno-Ugric borrowings in languages of Avesta and Rig Veda." and "The Early Afanasyevo culture was formed as a result of Indo-Iranian migration from Eastern Europe at the Early Bronze Age." What do you think? ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: baracuda
Date Posted: 15-May-2005 at 04:15
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.... ------------- |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 01:03
|
If Greeks were such a pure race why did Hitler dislike them?? ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 02:12
Your ignorance is stunning. Dislike??? Who exactly did Hitler consider his "friends", the Albanians???? Either post something of value or DON'T ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 10:13
|
He thought the Albanians were aryan race but not the Greeks.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 10:38
|
Your idiocy, bringing Adolf Hitler as "proof" of your ridiculus claims, is inconceivable! Please take action, see some specialist, before the damage to your brain is irreversable. I'm not even going to bother with the other BS on "pureness" etc... ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 11:47
I dont think he deserved these words by just claiming that you arent pure Aryans. He didnt defend or support Hitler (if he did, I would be the first person to reply his post with heavy insults Whatever kind of person Hitler was, he really had studied about a non-sense racist Aryan thingy, and according to him, Aryan was the superior European race, and he even considered the meditarrennean people of Spanish and Italians as Aryans. But he didnt consider Greeks as pure Aryans. It isnt such important what kind of categorization he used. But we know that it was about being pure Europeans. So even a guy like him could say that the Greeks arent pure Aryans. He didnt even consider Iranians as Aryans. And he didnt consider Greeks as Aryans, but some Greeks still believe they are pure blooded Aryans... ------------- |
) Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 12:03
Jesus Oguzoglu, did you ever see me (or anyone else) claiming anything about "Greeks being pure Aryans"??? Why do you put in my mouth words that I never said? Do you think that this is why I adorned him with these words? Come on...
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 13:10
|
I do not defend Hitlers actions or anything like that. Hitler however did a lot of reseach on races and peoples and he claimed that Greeks are not a pure race however Albanians are. Thus you can disprove him or his statement. Thats your choice. ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Kuu-ukko
Date Posted: 16-May-2005 at 15:06
Wow.... page 1: Can there be blonde Greeks? page 4: Greeks weren't pure Aryans by Hitler.......
|
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 03:55
|
What irritates me the most, is that you don't possess the basic intelligence to comprehend that since Albania was an ally to Fascist Italy (protectorate) and the Nazis, Hitler had every reason to support something like that. There were Albanian divisions fighting alongside the Vermacht. Let's also not forget that Hitler in WWII created greater Albania, by giving it Kossovo and W. Macedonia and exterminating hundreds of thousands of Slavs...
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 07:32
If you'd ask me I'd honestly prefer it if ancient Hellas wasn't idealized by people like him. Unfortunately it was, I suggest you do a simple google using the words Hitler + Sparta. You'll find exactly how many times he connects the Germans to the Spartans, he actually considers them as a prototype for German values, interestingly enough he never once mentioned Albanians in his "mein kampf". Everything is online, all you need to do is do an objective search. You can also find loads of "Great Albania" supporters that claim that you were part of the "Aryan race" and your language is a direct "decsendant" of them during the 40's. Using Hitler really isn't a argument that would suit your cause ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 11:12
|
Albania was an ally to Fascist Italy but only on paper... partizans in
Albania fought against the Nazis just like any other partizans in the
Balkans. Quite a few villages were wiped out in the north after German
soldiers were killed. While it is true that he had Albanian Kosovars
fighting for him this does not prove that Albania itself had in mind to
become "Greater Albania". Thats an idea that to this day has little
appeal to people living in Albania. Most of the people who like that
idea are Albanians outside living in Macedonia and Kosovo because well
they don't want to be outside of Albania plus the Albania is small as
it can't support 3 other million people. Most of the Slavs were exterminated by their own brethen tho,
the Croats might have killed up to 500000 Serbs during WW2.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 12:30
|
OK, so now you never assisted Italy and Germany in WW2 Must admit you know your history  As for "Greater Albania" I'll repost something from a different topic, just a couple of comments made by Albanian politicians. See what the following Albanian politicians have to say about Kosovo for starters: SOURCE: Kosova Sot, Pristina, in Albanian 13 Oct 04 p 3 Excerpt from interview with Naser Bresa, chairman of the Democratic National Front, by S. Ahmeti: "Bresa: "Ethnic Albania can be created with us", published by Kosovo Albanian newspaper Kosova Sot on 13 October Ahmeti What do you offer to the electorate that others do not? Bresa The Democratic National Front Balli Kombetar Demokratik - BKD in Albanian is one of the youngest political entities in Kosova Kosovo and it offers precisely what other entities in the Kosova Kosovo political scene have not offered so far. We offer the fulfilment of the historic aspiration for national unification, or said even more plainly, the formation of an ethnic Albania - an aspiration that dates back to the time of Mithat Frasheri, Abdyl Frasheri 19th century Albanian activists and all others that made huge sacrifices for our national cause, like the nationalists and patriots of the National Front platoons.a Source: Kosova Sot, Pristina, in Albanian 9 Oct 04 p 3 Text of interview with People's Movement of Kosovo chairman Emrush Xhemajli by S. Ahmeti: "Xhemajli: Me prime minister, Gafurr Elshani president", published by Kosovo Albanian newspaper Kosova Sot on 9 October (Ahmeti) What do you offer in your programme that the others do not offer? (Xhemajli) In the LPK's (People's Movement of Kosovo) programme for this election, we offer our honesty and what none of the political entities which have governed so far have offered until now. We are determined to realize the declaration on the independent state of Kosova (Kosovo) and the creation of the Kosova-Albania Union. (Ahmeti) With which parties would you not agree to co-govern? (Xhemajli) As the LPK, we do not even want to co-govern and be close to any of those who are not ready to name this country properly: the land of Albania divided in 1913, which wants natural unification and integration into Europe. SOURCE: Kosova Sot, Pristina, in Albanian 8 Oct 04 p 3 Excerpt from interview with Party of Albanian National Unity (UNIKOMB) chairman Muhamet Kelmendi by S. Ahmeti: "Shared governance unavoidable", published by Kosovo Albanian newspaper Kosova Sot on 8 October Ahmeti What do you offer in your programme that the others do not offer? Kelmendi As a party, UNIKOMB offers a state through which we believe we can move towards realization of the historic will of the Albanian nation to have a state and be one nation. We do not understand creation of a new nation in the Balkans, but we do understand unification of the Albanian nation, which is currently separated and divided in various parts of the Balkans. Passage omitted ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 15:08
|
like i said it has little appeal amongst the general Albanian populace
inside Albania...BDK and UNIKOMB have been around for a while but most
of the votes either go to the Democratic or Socialist Party when
there's elections.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 15:08
|
Yes we were complete Nazi's. We handed over every Jew we could find...Oh wait http://www.aacl.com/index11.html - http://www.aacl.com/index11.html
Check the numbers on the SS Skanderbeg. 60% deserted after the 3 months periods. Many left right after they were handed their weapons. It had to be dropped because of it. And Phallanx, your basing the whole "Greater Albania" deal on a few likely crooked Kosovo leaders? Then I might start taking the whole Megalo idea seriously also as quite a few nationalists seem to be for it. ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 19:44
|
Please, we may seem at times but we aren't that stupid!!!! The internet is a valuable source of knowledge, I suggest you use it correctly. Exactly how many jews were in Albania priop to ww2? Man if you guys don't know your history and exactly what the "Skanderbeg division" was all about, that isn't our fault but Hoxza's and your negligence of the source you're provided with (internet), in short use it to obtain the knowledge they've derived you of. Interestingly enough this is one of hundreds found on a simple google: Friday May 2, 1997 Only about 60 Jews were known to be in Albania before the outbreak of violence and armed conflict earlier this year. http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/s tory_id/6064/edition_id/113/format/html/displaystory.html Do I really need to post a previous census of the Jewish population??? ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:12
|
Cities down to Vlora had quite a jewish population during
WW2(which migrated there like they did in many other places at the
time)
which dissappeared afterwards(was there any reason for them to stay in
a backwards paper country?) Well then tell US phallanx. What WAS the SS Skanderbeg all about? We ignorant Albanians really need to know. Why would it be so suprising that we really didnt like the Nazi's. We were Commies. Anyway I dont know how this turned into an Albanian discussion. ------------- |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:37
|
Are you people trully Albanian or you just totally IGNORANT of your history??? If you don't know that the SS Skanderbeg was an Albanian "army" formed by H.Himler to literally cleanse Kosovo then what do you know and why on earth did you mention them???? Proof is out there as long as you want to obtain knowledge. Why would German, Italian, (Hellinic an Serb I could understand "NOT" to be non-credible), British...... all mention intentional cleansing of the Kosovo-Albanian area???? Don't give me the Turkish logic of "christian clubs/ everyone against islam" and that kind of crap . Objective search, DO IT!!! and then ask anything you like. (by objective I mean NO albanian, NO hellinic, NO serb sources) ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: TheodoreFelix
Date Posted: 17-May-2005 at 21:10
|
What you fail to mention is how the division was broken up because of disertion. It was formed in March 1944 and by Nov it had less then half its original number. On us being Nazi like here is an article written by a non-Albanian: http://kulturserver-hamburg.de/home/illyria/i.php3?p=2004_01_09_fisher_jews_in_albania&s=e - http://kulturserver-hamburg.de/home/illyria/i.php3?p=2004_01 _09_fisher_jews_in_albania&s=e
------------- |
Posted By: Nikos Tsakiris
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 07:02
|
Inhuman
refusal of entry and denaturalization
of ethnic Macedonians in The Greek
government continues to denaturalize members of the Macedonian
minority in The Greek
Authorities selectively implement law 3370, article 20 par. 1G (Greek law for
Citizenship), mainly against ethnic Macedonians (economical immigrants)
who are active as members of Macedonian associations and express their
Macedonian cultural, linguistic and national identity. The
ethnic Macedonians are informed about the Greek's State decision
only when they try to enter Recently (07 05 2005) Mr. George Mishalis tried
to enter Greek
border police authorities prohibited his entry, according to the
above-mentioned decision. It’s truly
unbelievable that in year 2005 and in a so-called modern European country
as EFA-
Rainbow was also recently informed about the denaturalization the Also of
one more Macedonian. Mr. Chris
Gagatsis was declared "undesirable" in Mr.
Gagatsis' place of birth is village Alritas / Buf, Florina / Lerin
Over the
past decades, Greek Governments have never given any data on the numbers
of denaturalized Macedonians. The victims of this policy are simply
notified about it upon their arrival to Greek border stations, exactly as it
happened in the 2 cases mentined above. This inhuman and racial discrimination
against George Misalis and Chris Gagatsis but also against other
Macedonian economic immigrants, the refusal of repatriation rights for
thousands of Macedonian political refugees that left their birthplaces
during the civil war (1946-1949**), the continuous refusal to grant any rights
for the Macedonian minority in Greece and the discrimination in terms
of ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity prove for yet another time
that there is a deficit of democracy in our
country. According to the EFA-
Rainbow denounces the continuous racist and inhuman treatment
that the Greek government holds in store for the
ethnic Macedonian minority in EFA-Rainbow
also calls all the Greek democrats to support our fight for a truly democratic
and European The
political Secretariat *Code for
Greek Citizenship Low 3370/1955 Chapter G Article 20 Denaturalization One can
lose his/her Greek Citizenship When-while residing abroad-he/she acted in
benefit of another State, in ways that do not comply to the Greek citizen
status and against ** Common Decision of the Ministers of Internal
Affairs and Public Order of Subject: Free repatriation
and return of the Greek citizenship to the political refugees. Taking under consideration: The provisions of the Law 400/76 "For
Ministerial Council and Ministries" as it was modified by the law N.
1266/1982 and within the framework of the Government's policy for
national reconciliation and unanimity, We decide that: All Greeks
in gender (nb: underline made by EFA-Rainbow) that during the civil
war 1946-49 and because of it fled abroad as political refugees, can
return to Greece, even if they had been were deprived of their Greek
citizenship. The
ministers of Internal
Affairs & nbsp; Public
Order G.
Gennimatas &nbs p; G.
Skoularikis |
Posted By: Phallanx
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 10:20
|
Not even those Rainbow propagandists support this crap ------------- To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 18-May-2005 at 10:55
|
This is way out of topic and definatelly not under the scope of Anthropology & Linguistics part of the forum. Thread closed, if anyone is interested, please start a new one in International relations... ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |