So your only criteria for the Jews being the most oppressed people is that they managed to preserve their religion?
Then what about Zoroastrians? Havent they preserved their religion against all odds?
The fact of the matter is that there is no single most oppressed people, Jews have just been very successful in marketing their suffering for political purposes. Other than that, all ethnicities have been oppressed throughout the course of history, some have been completely wiped out!
I'd say that the most oppressed are the ones that didnt even make it to present times.
What is the ratio of Persian Zoroastrians to Persian Muslims? The fact is that the majority of Persian Zoroastrians didn't preserve their religion and just a small number of them who lived in some isolated lands, like in the deserts around Yazd, could do it.
It is said Shah Ismail gathered a large number of Sunni clerics in Tabriz and ordered them to insult Abu Bakr, Umar and other Sunni holy figures in public, one of them abstained and was immediately beheaded, and then all other ones did what the king had ordered. For this simple reason, the majority of Iranians became Shia Muslims.
But we know several times in the history, Jews were killed, exiled, or taken as slaves and the majority of them never changed their values, for example we know after the famous battle of the trench (Khandaq), the Prophet said this people never change their relgion, so he ordered to behead all the men of Banu Qurayza Jewish tribe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_the_Banu_Qurayza
They Preserved their Religion in Hindu India.There are
More Zoroastrians(Parsis) in India than anywhere else in the world.
According to
Parsi lore theyspent nineteen years on the island of Diu, after
which they set sail againand landed in Sanjan
also on the west coast of India, either in the year936AD or in 716AD
Permission to
settle was granted by Jadhav Rana, The Hindu ruler. These newly arrived
strangers were called Parsis - to denote the region from where theyhad come - Pars,
(Persia), once the birthplace of mighty empires, now thedistant dream of a band
of refugees.
Hindu India was
kind to the refugees from Pars. They suffered no persecution, nofear.They were allowed
to prosper and grow. They built the first fire temple in AD 721, installedwith due ceremony the
holy fire which they called the Iranshah, the Kingof Iran; lived largely
peaceful, obscure existences in various villagesand towns of Gujarat as
farmers, weavers and carpenters.
For about three
hundred years after landing at Sanjan, Parsisare said to have lived
in peace and without molestation. By that timetheir numbers had
greatly increased. Many moved from Sanjan to other partsof India with their
families: to Cambay, Navsari, Anklesvar, Variav,Vankaner and Surat in
the north, and to Thane and Chaul in the south.Pockets of Parsis were
also found in Upper India, mentioned by early travellers: in Sind, Dehra-Dun
and Punjab.
Whenever they
left Sanjan to settle elsewhere, they carried apart of the Iranshah
with them-the first fire they had consecrated onIndian soil. But not all
climes were as hospitable as Sanjan. In Sind,Ibrahim the Ghaznavid
perceived the Parsis as a colony of fire-worshippersand attacked them. In
Thana, which was ruled by the Portuguese, they wereseen as idolaters and
put upon by missionaries to convert to Christianity.
However, Islam
did follow them even to India. In 1465 Sanjan wassacked and destroyed by
the Muslim Sultanate. Parsis fought valiantly,side by side with their
Hindu benefactors. Many lost their lives, but thepriests managed to
rescue the sacred fire and carried it safely to a caveon a hill, where,
protected by jungle and sea, they guarded it for thenext twelve years.
Though they
didn't completely lose touch with the Persianlanguage, Gujarati
(their version of it), started to become their mothertongue. They adopted
many Hindu customs. Parsi women dressed like theirIndian counterparts.
They even wore nose rings.
Parsis are a
people who uprooted themselves and moved to adifferent
world to save
their religion. Parsis migrated to India one thousandyears ago. The Parsi experience
is
about dilemmas that most minoritycommunities
face; questions about religion and
race, survival andextinction,
assimilation and identity, tradition and the modern
world.There are only 100,000
Parsis in the world today, mostly in India,particularly
in Bombay. Demographically, they are a dying community-ourdeaths outweigh our
births. Parsis like to quote a remark that MahatmaGandhi once reportedly made,
"In
numbers Parsis are beneath contempt, butin
contribution, beyond compare." Out of
an Indian
population of more thanone
billion, Parsis number a mere 76,000.
Tatas
theBiggest business conglomerate of India is chaired by parsis.Godrej& Wadia Group two other business houses
of India are also owned by parsis.
Hanging Gardens
and temple of silence of Bombay are famous.Temple of Silence is a Parsi Fire
temple.
I`m interested why young East-Asian islamist like you (you proved it in almost all your previous posts in this forum) worship modern Turkish state so much? Because Turkey is direct successor of long dead Ottoman empire and Ottoman Sultan was the last Caliph of all Sunni muslims? You talking about Turkish imperialist future, but you forget about grim reality which is quite different from your wishes my friend. Turkey is absolute nothing without European and western support and even now Turkey is far low from their standard. It`s very hard to reach it. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk created modern Turkey as western copy and put Turkey on western way. Turkey don`t have enough resources to be an empire anymore in this world order. Every turn back will destroy it. Crazy leaders like Erdogan can`t do anything and they will obviously end worse. Turkey have some success today not because follow Taliban lifestyle, and you can use computer and mouse not on account of any Taliban аchievements. I`m not right?
Guys, today is the era of services and ICT. A country does not need to be a manufacturing heavyweight to advance and grow rich. It's the skills in organisation, management, logistics etc. that are more important to propel the country forward. In relation to these, Turkey's Ottoman experience as an imperial power will be an immense asset, if it's channeled and exploited in the right way.
Of course, manufacturing prowess helps, but it's no more the end-all-and-be-all of economic development. BTW, Turkey is also no mean player in the building and construction sector. Its construction firms have won and completed serious-scale construction jobs throughout Europe.
Geee, Turkey is the great player in construction sector! I personally refuse to live in building construct from Turkish company, because it`s life hazard. They too much like to economize materials like reinforcing bars and use one of the lowest quality cement in the world. For reference remember Izmit earthquake 1999:
Golcuk's mosque remains intact, while surrounding residential
Soddy Haven't you been banned yet--Nothing you say is ever right. So I just dismiss you out of hand.
What about the Christians in the Middle east just 30 years ago they made up 20% of the middle east now just 5%
The document said relations between Christians and Muslims were often difficult “principally because Muslims make no distinction between religion and politics, thereby relegating Christians to the precarious position of being considered noncitizens, despite the fact that they were citizens of their countries long before the rise of Islam.” http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/world/europe/07pope.html?ref=global-home
So if we follow the same logic that returns parts of Israel to the Palistinians, I want to see Christian lands returned also.
Oh by the way here are the latest updates:
2010.06.05 (Basilan, Philippines) - Abu Sayyaf members kidnap and murder three villagers.
2010.06.05 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Muslim terrorists set off a bicycle bomb, killing a bystander.
2010.06.05 (Marib, Yemen) - An al-Qaeda ambush leaves three locals dead.
2010.06.04 (Malgobek, Ingushetia) - An attack on a shop by Islamic militants leaves one person dead.
2010.06.04 (Sagapshi, Ingushetia) - A grocery store clerk is gunned down by Islamists who plant a bomb that then kills a rescue worker.
2010.06.04 (Datta Khel, Pakistan) - An elderly man is beheaded by Religion of Peace zealots.
Date
Country
City
Killed
Injured
Description
2010.06.05
Afghanistan
Kandahar
1
15
Muslim terrorists set off a bicycle bomb, killing a bystander.
2010.06.05
Philippines
Basilan
3
0
Abu Sayyaf members kidnap and murder three villagers.
2010.06.05
Yemen
Marib
3
0
An al-Qaeda ambush leaves three locals dead.
2010.06.04
Iraq
Mosul
2
4
Terrorsts murder two civilians with a roadside bomb.
2010.06.04
Dagestan
Makhachkala
1
1
Muslim radicals shoot a rival imam to death in front of his mosque.
2010.06.04
Iraq
Missan
2
2
Two Iraqis are killed when Muslim radicals rocket an airport.
2010.06.04
Pakistan
Miranshah
1
0
A civilian is captured by the Taliban and shot to death.
2010.06.04
Pakistan
Datta Khel
1
0
An elderly man is beheaded by Religion of Peace zealots.
2010.06.04
Ingushetia
Sagapshi
2
21
A grocery store clerk is gunned down by Islamists who plant a bomb that then kills a rescue worker.
2010.06.04
Ingushetia
Malgobek
1
16
An attack on a shop by Islamic militants leaves one person dead.
2010.06.03
Turkey
Iskenderun
1
0
A Catholic bishop is stabbed to death by a Muslim who says it was Allah's will.
2010.06.03
Pakistan
Quetta
2
0
A man murders his sister and her lover for having 'illicit relations'.
2010.06.03
Thailand
Pattani
1
0
A Buddhist schoolteacher is gunned down by Religion of Peace proponents.
2010.06.03
Iraq
Abu Ghraib
8
0
Eight victims of a Shiite death squad are found in a mass grave.
2010.06.03
Iraq
Sinjar
4
14
Four people are killed when Islamic fundamentalist bombers target and liquor stores.
2010.06.02
Iraq
Mosul
1
0
Islamic militants kidnap a local soldier and slit his throat.
2010.06.02
Iraq
Abu Ghraib
1
3
A Jihad bomb blast leaves one Iraqi dead.
2010.06.02
Afghanistan
Nawzad
4
0
Two young boys are among four civilians taken out by Islamist roadside bomb.
2010.06.02
Afghanistan
Marjah
4
0
Four civilians are killed in their home during a Taliban ambush on a security patrol.
2010.06.01
Pakistan
Karachi
1
0
A Shia is brutally shot to death in a sectarian attack.
2010.06.01
Pakistan
Mohmand
3
0
Three civilians are gunned down by Taliban militants.
2010.06.01
Iraq
Mosul
3
1
Mujahid successfully kill three Iraqis with an incendiary bomb.
2010.06.01
Pakistan
Muslimabad
2
0
A woman and her new husband are murdered by her former in-laws in an honor killing.
Ok, maybe Mexico is a better comparison for Turkey than Brazil. Look back at the economic data I posted. Turkey is not far behind Mexico, with a more comparable population. But Mexico is much richer than Turkey in terms of natural resources. Which makes Turkey's economic performance even more impressive.
Turkey will get even better when it increases its economic engagement further with West Asia, Central Asia and East Asia, something which hasn't been fully developed up to this point in time, no thanks to its previous one-sided love affair with Europe.
The Turkey of tomorrow will be a much more multi-directional player. It can no more afford to be besotted with Europe alone. The sooner it realises that and adjust its bearings accordingly, the better.
Guys, today is the era of services and ICT. A country does not need to be a manufacturing heavyweight to advance and grow rich. It's the skills in organisation, management, logistics etc. that are more important to propel the country forward. In relation to these, Turkey's Ottoman experience as an imperial power will be an immense asset, if it's channeled and exploited in the right way.
Of course, manufacturing prowess helps, but it's no more the end-all-and-be-all of economic development. BTW, Turkey is also no mean player in the building and construction sector. Its construction firms have won and completed serious-scale construction jobs throughout Europe.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 06-Jun-2010 at 03:43
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
Ive flown Turkish Airlines and the food was surprisingly good and the longhaul flights were very comfy and it was at a dman good price too.
Actually you can compare Turkey and Brazil or India for that matter in terms of economy and industry, saying that you can not is just foolishness and laziness to be fair.
I dont hate Turkey, just because one says something that makes Turjey not loog great, or makes it look inferiror to something else doesnt mean you hate it, and its not BS to state that Brazil is set to excell on the world stage much sooner and better than Turkey will. Thats just the way things are because of the fortunate situation that Brazil andindeed India find themselves in.
How about Turkish Airlines? Who are also official sponsor of football teams like Barcelona, Manchester City.
In production and industry, Turkey and Brazil cannot be compared. Turkey are top 20 economy without oil, gas and actually any considerable natural resource.
Just because you hate Turkey, you cannot spread BS.
Turkey are far more advanced then Brazil, thats for sure.
And what you post are most likely from Kurdish regions.
Think twice and read more before talk. Brazilian aerospace company Embraer is world`s fourth bigger producer of commercial aircraft after Boing, Airbus and Bombardier. Is Turkey produce something like this?
Many Brazilian companies are world leaders in their sector. Like Petrobras (Energy and petrochemicals), WEG Industries (Industrial equipment and machinery) and Gerdau (steel). There is also many Brazilian companies which produce their own high-tech products like Gradiente and Bravox in computers and electronics. Iochpe-Maxion, Marcopolo and Troller in automaking. Is Turkish company a world leader in any sector? Or to produce anything without joint-venture and know-how purchase?
Kurds aren`t culpable to all misery and problems in Turkey. The photographs are from villages just outside of Ankara.
I can`t compare India with Brazil, because they are too different. Brazil is a country create from Europeans and somehow European project. India is unique country with long history. Both have huge population, resources and can make power to their own way.
Turkey and Brazil are at the same level pretty much, the difference is that Brazil has a much larger population which makes spreading out the wealth harder.
But likewise, because of Brazil's large amount of natural resources and large population, it is set to become a world power, just as China, India, and Russia are.
I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
For comparison:
Mexico, per capita income, nominal: US$10,000, PPP: US$14,500. Brazil, per capita income, nominal: US$8,000, PPP: US$10,500.
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.
In your unique style you try to compare Brazil with Turkey?! Be careful because Brazil is just like entire continent. There is not only the Amazon, but also regions with standard of living absolute equal to European or North American. With huge European population. Germany is a major weakness to every Turkish citizen. Ask anyone Turk where he want to work and to live and hear the answer. I can imagine how would react one ordinary Turk when he see photo`s of this Brazilian cities
He will prepare to emigrate immediately with a whole family, and soon we often will see Brazilian landscape like this
Females as spoils of war has been an ongoing phenomenon for millenia. Everybody knows that. Don't you pretend you don't. Not only the Arabs did it. It's happened everywhere, all throughout history. In Greece, Persia, Rome, Byzantium, you name it.
It couldn't be simply stopped in short order. It had become ingrained as a part of military culture. But the practice was progressively phased out in Islam.
The differnce is the west has evolved in The Mid east women are mere property-- When the Taliban blows up little girls becuase they want to go to school, that should tell you something. They don't want an educated female population, why you ask---Becuase women tend to be a liberalizing force in the reform of governments.
Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 04-Jun-2010 at 05:41
Females as spoils of war has been an ongoing phenomenon for millenia. Everybody knows that. Don't you pretend you don't. Not only the Arabs did it. It's happened everywhere, all throughout history. In Greece, Persia, Rome, Byzantium, you name it.
It couldn't be simply stopped in short order. It had become ingrained as a part of military culture. But the practice was progressively phased out in Islam.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
People still work on some farms, in certain places, with horses and steer even in Germany, England and France. Even is certain places in Switzerland, the country with the highest per capita income in the world. What's the big deal about that?
Learning the Quran by memory is an Islamic tradition that has gone on for over centuries. Why do you have a problem with that? It's a tradition some folks still like to follow voluntarily. There is absolutely no compulsion to it. Absolutely none at all.
You have to understand. Turkey is a country that was at one time almost totally crushed by the combined might of Russia, Britain and France. With countries like Greece and Bulgaria making opportunistic attempts to do some land grabbing. It's a miracle that they've actually survived to the extent they did. It's only natural that a country with Turkey's experience is extremely sensitive regarding matters pertaining to territorial integrity.
Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.
I take it you didn't read the post above.
Here is some more of Islams awesome treatment of women:
After military conquests, Muhammad would dole out captured women as war prizes to his men. In at least one case, he advocated that they be raped in front of their husbands. Captured women were made into sex slaves by the very men who killed their husbands and brothers. There are four Qur’anic verses in which "Allah" makes clear that a Muslim master has full sexual access to his female slaves, yet there is not one that prohibits rape.
The Qur’an gives Muslim men permission to beat their wives for disobedience. It plainly says that husbands are “a degree above” wives. The Hadith says that women are intellectually inferior, and that they comprise the majority of Hell’s occupants.
Under Islamic law, a man may divorce his wife at the drop of a hat. If he does this twice, then wishes to remarry her, she must first have sex with another man. Men are exempt from such degradations.
Persons like Shield of Dardania (-Great Turkey?!) spread official Turkish propaganda in this forum not for the first time. I`m amazed about their awareness in this matter from one hand, and totally turning a blind eyes to the obvious things from another.
Did anybody going to Turkey outside big cities of Istanbul, Ankara, Bursa and Izmir? Situation is very very miserable! There is numerous villages without electricity, water supply and sanitation in 21 century. People work on the fields with horses and steer, like they did hundreds of years before. Many send their children to work as cheap labor all across Europe (especially Germany) and lived almost for the money they bring back to them. Every village have at least one mosque and many people can`t read, but know Quran by rote absolute brainwashed from Islamist priests. Is this your modern country, seeking to measure forces with Europe!? If you go forward in easternmost Turkish region, you will see is a military zone. Soldiers in every step, barbed wire, emplacements, checkpoints and silent people scared to talk it`s Kurd language on public.
Turkish economy depend on "pussy footing" Europe and other foreign investment (Japan and USA). European companies build a factory and plants in Turkey, not Turkish itself because they don`t have any potential to produce anything without foreign help. Only a food products. Outside NATO and with Islamist aggressive government on top all this investment will escape immediately, be sure about it. Tha`s why Erdogan is cautious to this moment, but obviously he begin to lose correct idea of things from awhile.
People still work on some farms, in certain places, with horses and steer even in Germany, England and France. Even in certain places in Switzerland, the country with the highest per capita income in the world. What's the big deal about that? That's what you keep a workhorse for, to work your farm.
Learning the Quran by memory is an Islamic tradition that has gone on for over 14 centuries. Why do you have a problem with that? It's a tradition some folks still like to follow voluntarily. There is a certain method to it, it needs a certain special ability, not to mention commitment, and not every Tom, Dick and Harry can do it even if he's crazy about it. There is absolutely no compulsion to it. Absolutely none at all.
You have to understand. Turkey is a country that was at one time almost totally crushed by the combined might of Russia, Britain and France. With countries like Greece and Bulgaria making opportunistic attempts to do some land grabbing. It's a miracle that they've actually survived to the extent they did. It's only natural that a country with Turkey's experience is extremely sensitive regarding matters pertaining to territorial integrity.
Turkey's GDP (nominal) for 2009 was over US$600 billion, and per capita income (nominal) was almost US$9,000. Translated into Purchasing-Power-Parity (PPP) terms, its GDP was close to US$900 billion, while its per capita income was close to US$13,000. For an Asian country, okay, Eurasian if you like, with negligible oil resources, that's rather quite impressive economic data, one has to admit. Don't you think so?
For comparison:
Mexico, per capita income, nominal: US$10,000, PPP: US$14,500. Brazil, per capita income, nominal: US$8,000, PPP: US$10,500.
I agree, things perhaps can be better there. But they aren't that bad either.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 04-Jun-2010 at 03:34
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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