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From Babylon to Scandinavia!

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: From Babylon to Scandinavia!
    Posted: 30-Apr-2010 at 17:25

It was interesting for me when I found some similarites between Babylonian Aloros and Scandinavian Ollerus.

The original Babylonian (or rather Sumerian) name was Alulim.
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2010 at 09:57
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

[quote]
I'd like to see an explanation how an invading people manage to fool the locals that they are gods. How stupid wouldn't they have to be?
I think that's been done quite often throughout history, hasn't it? Herakles, Hektor, Akhilles, Alejandros have all each had his time. The masses are always eager to welcome a new, more glorious, more heroic 'God'.
 
If you have the power of life and death over everyone, then that's it. For all intents and purposes, you're 'God'! But you might need a little help from the local High Priest or High Priestess to facilitate the persuasion. Normally they'll only be too willing, cos they value their lives too!
 
You lead a vicious, formidable, ferocious band of warriors to victory over any tribe or nation, and then ... Voila! Lo & behold! You're the new true God of War!
 
I wouldn't underrate a young geek so much if I were ya. They do come up with some amazing stuff sometimes.
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2010 at 14:08
SoD, you did mean young Greek, rather than "geek" did you not? Laugh!

Wait, most young people who really understand computers are "geeks!", so perhaps I was wrong? LOL

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2010 at 05:15
Nope. I really meant a young 'geek'. In response to a post by Styrbion who had said: "May I suggest reading books written by historians (modern ones) instead of wikipedia and other websites written by teenage conspiracy nutters?"Approve
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2010 at 23:23
Odin came from the Celtic god Lugus-- Odin was first embraced by the Chatti ( a German tribe on the border of Celtic lands) Until this time Tyr was the norse god, Odin didn't play a role in Germanic relgions until the migration period.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2010 at 23:25
Also didn't the Franks claim to be descendents of the Trojans
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2010 at 23:48
Some guys say the name 'Frank' derived from "Fraggoi', which was what the Romans called the Phrygians, allies of the Trojans. As for Trojan lineage, many European royal houses seemed to have had a certain predisposition towards claiming Trojan ancestry, likely due to Troy having been the oldest n perhaps most glorious royal dynasty with any link to European history, whether proven or otherwise.
 
The Roman aristocracy and the Irish kings, for instance, both claimed ancestry from 2 royal geneaologies branching from Prince Aeneas, nephew of King Priam n cousin of Prince Hector.
 
Aeneas my hero, King and Protector of Dardania. The inspiration for my name.Approve
 
Anatolia-Levant having been a massive ethno-cultural melting pot, the Germanic Chatti also could have been linked to the Anatolian Khatti/Hatti, who along with Phrygians, Trojans, Assyrians, perhaps also Israelites, went out into Europe in a sort of large scale exodus, post-Troy. They all, of course, already had allies based in the Balkans, i.e. the Thracians.


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 13-May-2010 at 02:13
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2010 at 02:06
Now, let's just say, Prince Aeneas had an affair with a beautiful Assyrian princess, just before he got caught up in the politico-military complications of the Trojan War. The lovey-dovey, hopelessly-in-love couple soon married in secret, according to ancient Assyrian rites.
 
The said princess later bore a son, without Aeneas knowing anything about it. A descendant of that son eventually married into Babylonian royalty, thereby becoming an ancestor of Nebuchadnezzar I. An ancestor of Hastayaga (Astyages), a king of Medea, Nebuchadnezzar's  overlord, married Nebu's daughter in a political alliance. That union ultimately gave rise to Hastayaga.
 
Hastayaga was blessed with a beautiful daughter, named Mandane. Princess Mandane was later given in marriage to Kambujiya (Cambyses I), Persian co-ruler of Anshan (jointly with Arsames, father of Darius), again a political alliance. The union, of course, produced Khouroush-e-Bozorg (Cyrus the Great). Well, something like that. There ya go, now we have Khouroush-e-Bozorg (Cyrus the Great), descendant of Aeneas of Dardania. Sounds credible enough, I think.Approve


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 17-May-2010 at 18:27
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2010 at 12:01
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Odin came from the Celtic god Lugus-- Odin was first embraced by the Chatti ( a German tribe on the border of Celtic lands) Until this time Tyr was the norse god, Odin didn't play a role in Germanic relgions until the migration period.
Wasn't Odin a son of Thor/Tyr?
 
The Galati (of Anatolia) had the Khatti/Hatti as their neighbours. Centuries later, the Galli/Keltoi of Europe had the Chatti as their neighbours. Sounds familiar? A bit like history repeating itself, sort of ... deja vu ... or what?
 
Now, I just couldn't help thinkin, perhaps the usurpation of Thor/Tyr by Odin was simply an allegory to the conquest of Galli/Keltoi by Chatti ...


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 14-May-2010 at 12:30
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  Quote Nurica Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 09:32

infantile topic with infantile treatment... But it appears a lot of people need this kind of "history" in order to be related or to feel with all other humans a community; though is so simplistic as a method... And it is so easy to feel connected to all other humans by just being alive in the same century, or by understanding the obvious fact we are all member of the same still living species...

I have to conclude that wikipedia is the ravaging poison of our time, playing the same function like the ideological marxist or nazi texts of the 19th and 20th  c. or the religious texts of past millennia. Wikipedia is the convenient ersatz of all the scientific literature.
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:01
Odin was a late addition to the German Pantheon--It is thought that he orginated from the Chatti (Hessians) and came from the Celtic God Lugos
 
What strikes me as funny is the similitaries of celtic and germanic mythology.
 
Odin of course (wodan in west germanic) stikes a huge similartity to Lugus of the contiental celts. the magic spear, the rainbow, the ravens--Odin had one eye, Lugus closed one eye during combat. I wonder if the Norse and Germanic religions originated from the celtic.
 
I copied this from an online source
"It is also worth noting that parallels exist between the Irish Lugh, Gaulish Lugus, Germanic Wotan and Norse Odin. Odin was worshipped by the Norse as a god of war among other things including poetry and the arts. Odin appears to have replaced Tyr as god of war among north Germanic peoples. As such, it may be that Lugh was also worshipped as a god of war by the Irish. On that note it is worth noting that the ultimate Irish warrior hero Cu Chulainn is cited as the son of Lugh." end quote
As Odin is closely connected with a horse and spear, and transformation/shape shifting into animal shapes, an alternative theory of origin contends that Odin, or at least some of his key characteristics, may have arisen just prior to the sixth century as a nightmarish horse god (Echwaz), later signified by the eight-legged Sleipnir. Some support for Odin as a latecomer to the Scandinavian Norse pantheon can be found in the Sagas where, for example, at one time he is thrown out of Asgard by the other gods — a seemingly unlikely tale for a well-established "all father." Scholars who have linked Odin with the "Death God" template include E. A. Ebbinghaus, Jan de Vries and Thor Templin. The later two also link Loki and Odin as being one-and-the-same until the early Norse Period[citation needed].

Scandinavian Óðinn emerged from Proto-Norse *Wōdin during the Migration period, artwork of this time (on gold bracteates) depicting the earliest scenes that can be aligned with the High Medieval Norse mythological texts. The context of the new elites emerging in this period aligns with Snorri's tale of the indigenous Vanir who were eventually replaced by the Æsir, intruders from the Continent.[1]

Parallels between Odin and Celtic Lugus have often been pointed out: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry. Both have ravens and a spear as their attributes. Julius Caesar (de bello Gallico, 6.17.1) mentions Mercury as the chief god of Celtic religion. A likely context of the diffusion of elements of Celtic ritual into Germanic culture is that of the Chatti, who lived at the Celtic-Germanic boundary in Hesse during the final centuries before the Common Era. (It should be remembered that many Indo-Europeanists hypothesize that Odin in his Proto-Germanic form was not the chief god, but that he only gradually replaced Týr during the Migration period.)

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:03
Originally posted by Nurica

infantile topic with infantile treatment... But it appears a lot of people need this kind of "history" in order to be related or to feel with all other humans a community; though is so simplistic as a method... And it is so easy to feel connected to all other humans by just being alive in the same century, or by understanding the obvious fact we are all member of the same still living species...

I have to conclude that wikipedia is the ravaging poison of our time, playing the same function like the ideological marxist or nazi texts of the 19th and 20th  c. or the religious texts of past millennia. Wikipedia is the convenient ersatz of all the scientific literature.
 
You need to research more before entering to this discussion.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 01-Jun-2010 at 11:26
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You need to research more before entering to this discussion.
 
Really do you want the site that came from, It is a pretty recognized theory that Odin was a late addition and came from Lugus during the migration period
 
Didn't we already have this discussion, in a differnt forum
 
Here are some sites you can look at:
 
 
 
 

Worship of Odin dates back to early Germanic paganism. The most compelling evidence of this historical connection is found in the accounts of Tacitus and Julius Caesar, who describe the Germanic pagans participating in a cult of "Mercury" dedicated to a figure matching Odin in both attributes and areas of patronage.[10]

Thus, it is theorized that Scandinavian Óðinn emerged from Proto-Norse *Wōdin during the Migration period (especially 100 B.C.E. - 600 C.E.). The archaeological record bolsters this conjecture, as Vendel artwork (bracteates, image stones) depicts scenes that can be aligned with the High Medieval Norse mythological texts. Further, the context of the new elites emerging in this period aligns with Snorri's (euhemeristic) tale of the indigenous Vanir who were eventually replaced by the Aesir, understood as intruders from the continent.[11]

Additionally, parallels between Odin and Celtic Lugus have often been pointed out: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry. Both have ravens and a spear as their attributes, and both are one-eyed. A likely context of the diffusion of elements of Celtic ritual into Germanic culture is that of the Chatti, who lived at the Celtic-Germanic boundary in Hesse during the final centuries before the Common Era. However, it must be remembered that Odin in his Proto-Germanic form was not the chief god, but that he only gradually replaced Tyr during the Migration period.

also: Helene A. Guerber's 1909 book, "Myths of the Norsemen," and H.R. Ellis Davidson's 1964 book, "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe."



Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 01-Jun-2010 at 10:28
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:12
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus

Odin came from the Celtic god Lugus-- Odin was first embraced by the Chatti ( a German tribe on the border of Celtic lands) Until this time Tyr was the norse god, Odin didn't play a role in Germanic relgions until the migration period.
Wasn't Odin a son of Thor/Tyr?
 
The Galati (of Anatolia) had the Khatti/Hatti as their neighbours. Centuries later, the Galli/Keltoi of Europe had the Chatti as their neighbours. Sounds familiar? A bit like history repeating itself, sort of ... deja vu ... or what?
 
Now, I just couldn't help thinkin, perhaps the usurpation of Thor/Tyr by Odin was simply an allegory to the conquest of Galli/Keltoi by Chatti ...
 
The Chatti are Hessians in German Chatti is the Latinized version
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:45
This is from Penn state:
 

Origins

Worship of Odin dates to Proto-Germanic paganism.

Parallels between Odin and Celtic Lugus have often been pointed out: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry. (It must be remembered that Odin in his Proto-Germanic form was not the chief god, but that he only gradually replaced Tyr during the Migration period.)

Scandinavian Óðinn emerged from Proto-Norse *Wōdin during the Migration period, Vendel artwork (bracteates, image stones) depicting the earliest scenes that can be aligned with the High Medieval Norse mythological texts.

Some scholars have linked Odin with the "Death God" template. A few of them, such as Jan de Vries and Thor Templin, link Loki and Odin as being one-in-the-same until the early Norse Period.

Blót

It is attested in primary sources that sacrifices were made to Odin during blóts.

As the Swedes had the right not only to elect king but also to depose a king, the sagas relate that both King Domalde and King Olof Trätälja were sacrificed to Odin after years of famine. It has been argued that the killing of a combatant in battle was to give a sacrificial offering to Odin. The fickleness of Odin in battle was well-documented, and in Lokasenna, Loki taunts Odin for his inconsistency.



Read more: Odin - Characteristics, Origins, Blót, Edda, Odin and Jesus, Persisting beliefs in Odin http://encyclopedia.stateuniversity.com/pages/16246/Odin.html#ixzz0pcmr3m21
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:52
Here is another one for you:
 
CELTIC RELIGION.

By Professor Anwyl, Professor of Welsh at University College,
Aberystwyth.

THE MYTHOLOGY OF ANCIENT BRITAIN AND IRELAND.
By Charles Squire, Author of The Mythology of the British
 
Who says that celt and teuton myths are intertwined
 
 

The Celtic and Scandinavian Religions

 By J. A. MacCulloch
 
  1. Rundkvist, Martin (April 2003). Post festum. Solid gold in the Vendel Period.. ^ Skaldskaparmal, in Edda. Anthony Faulkes, Trans., Ed. (London: Everyman, 1996).

 

       2      ^ Lindow, John. Norse Mythology: A Guide to the Gods, Heroes, Rituals, and Beliefs, pages 280-281. (2001) Oxford: Oxford University Press.



Edited by Maximus Germanicus - 01-Jun-2010 at 11:01
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  Quote Maximus Germanicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 10:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You need to research more before entering to this discussion.
 
I wouldn't consider the sites you used as research sites. They are more alternate history really
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 11:58
I edited my post, that was in fact a reply to Nurica, not you, as you said we had also discussed about it in another thread, I also believe that there was a strong connection between Celtic and Germanic cultures, you probably know that the Germanic tribe of the Vandals have also been mentioned as Lugus/Lugii in some sources, as you read here: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Lygians it is not clear that Lugii were a Celtic or Germanic tribe and it is said that they were a compound tribe.
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 13:54
MG, I think that Cyrus was chastising Nurica for a somewhat inane post! I don't believe he challegened your sites!

As it is related to alernate history, there can be made an argument that what we call Persia today (Iran) is a creation of the 16th century CE, or earlier! I is alleged that the very use of the word "Franks" or "Frankish" to describe a particular part of our past, could also be confused with "France", and via that direction, confused with "Paris" and "Parisian!", and thus Persia / Persian!

Even the use of the city name "Babylon", is up to question! There also existed a Roman city in Egypt, near Heliopolis and Cairo, called Babylon! There even exists a great aqueduct / canal that brought water to the gardens found there! Ring any bells?

But, that is for the "alternate" history section,and not here!

Regards,
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2010 at 18:40
I think Odin-Adon-Adonis, as mentioned by Cyrus, is a valid speculative platform in relation to a broader pan-IE mythological canvas.
 
I don't know, but I would also speculate, personally, that the Indian Arjun a.k.a. Arjuna, demigod super archer and hero of the semi-mythical Kurukshetra War, the mainstay of the Mahabhrata story told in the Hindu holy scripture Bhagavad Gita (Song of God), is also somehow connected to that in the entire overarching IE mythological spectrum. Arjun, BTW, was one of the 5 princes of King Pandu of the Pandava tribe.
 
BTW, the legend says a Kambhoja (Himalayan Cymmerian, or maybe Himalayan Scytho-Cymmerian - not the Kambuja of Cambodia) prince-warrior named Sudakh Shina sided with the Kaurava, foe of the Pandava, against the Pandava and their allies.
 
One version says Sudakh Shina, on the 14th day of the 18-day war, at one time hit Arjun with a blow so powerful that it made Arjun swoon. But Arjun, benefitting from the divine aid of his cousin and brother-in-law Lord Krishna, somehow recovered and eventually slew Sudakh Shina with his divine arrow. Not such a valiant act, to me, but then there ya go.Approve
 
The loss of Sudakh Shina, a leading general on the Kaurava side, eventually led to their defeat by the Pandava.Cry
 
That Sudakh Shina, BTW, was a descendant of king-warrior Kambujiya, who the Kambhoja people believe that Khouroush-e-Bozorg (Cyrus the Great), founder of the Persian Hakhamanesh (Achaemenes) dynasty, ultimately descended from.
 
This Kurukshetra War, BTW, is postulated by many Indian scholars to have occurred in the time frame of 1,400 BC, at least. The name Kambujiya (Greek: Cambyses, sometimes also Cophen) later became a favourite among the Persian Hakhamanesh kings, post Khouroush.
 
As for Celtic, Teutonic and Gothic, why not? They all descended from Scytho-Cymmerio-Sarmatian, and before that Thracian, so some degree of ancient cultural interconnection would only have been a natural development.Smile


Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 01-Jun-2010 at 19:02
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