What if Tamerlane lived long enough to invade China as his plan?

Originally posted by Omnipotence "Maybe a part of China, but not China as a whole.. " I have to agree there. Sometimes the Chinese would just send tribute if they think it costs less than the war. Considering that both empires are very prosperous and powerful, I think that's what the Chinese would do(I give you this and that if you go away) right when they are in the border.    "he's not even mentioned in chinese history books unlike the earlier mongols, jerchens, kitans, tibetans etc..." Actually he is. My friend claimed to have read him in a Chinese history book and he's planned invasion of China, which was stopped by his death. But that was a long time ago<like the 1970s-1980s>, maybe they stopped mentioning him now, I don't know.

Tamerlane's plan was not just for economic purpose. He meant to convert all Chinese into Muslim through his conquest. So I don't think some tribute from Ming court could stop him. On the other hand, given the personality of Yongle Emperor,he was too self-esteem and bellicose to make such a compromise without a real fight. 

As what I mentioned in my post, this topic is a hot stuff on Chinese military or historian wetsite. Tamerlane is more well known than what you imagined among Chinese, coolstorm.

(The portait of Yongle Emperor, Zhu Di)

either way though this would be a good match.  Neither Timur or Zhu Di ever came to grips with an enemy as talented as each other.  With both armies also being largely cavalry and somewhat Mongol influenced it would have been a great campaign no matter who won, almost makes my military history side wish it had happened...

Originally posted by coolstorm yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people. is that what u want them to continue to do? i don't do that however.

       please...go ahead...

    there is no such thing as "my fellow people"...that dun work on me...there's only me and everyone else.

Originally posted by babyblue Originally posted by babyblue Originally posted by coolstorm yeah, most people look down on mainland cantonese, too, your fellow people. is that what u want them to continue to do? i don't do that however.        please...go ahead...     there is no such thing as "my fellow people"...that dun work on me...there's only me and everyone else...

 

Oh, bluebaby and coolstorm, r u 2 just "mix up the bones"? (you know this cantonese idiom)

" My friend claimed to have read him in a Chinese history book and he's planned invasion of China, which was stopped by his death. "

 

Which is in modern books, the Ming Shi mentions nothing about Timerlane's political designs, simply because he was too far away to matter. Anyone studying the geography of the Taklamakan desert cwould know the difficultly invovled in crossing that frontier. As for Timerlane taking the whole of Ming in one campaign, its as ridiculous as the Ming sailing to Hermuz and land a troop there and march to Samarkand. Even Genghis with all that proximity and horsepower advantage with roughly the same forces that Timerlane set out could not take the Jin in two campaigns and he also had the support of the Xia as a right hand. Add to this is the deterioration of the Jin both militarily and politically and the fact that it only ruled the North. To take the South, a powerful fleet is essential, and there is little time remains in Timerlane's life to fight another half a century even assume he wipes out every Ming army that is sent against him, which is highly unlikely to begin with, since Zhu Di's army is known to have crushed the Oirats who deployed the same tactics plentity of times.

For a huge country like Ming China, it was impossible to conquer it by only one or two vitories in the battlefield. Looking into the history, it usually took a emerging power decades or even generations to fully defeat the declining central regime and become the master of the Middle Empire after a series of bloody wars.

 

Tamerlane would have won any battle against the Ming. He would not have kept the country though. He was a lousy statesman.

I think Timur would have conquered Beijing. His army was the best in the world of his time. He had even defeated the "Sword of Islam", the Osman sultan Bajazid I in the famous battle of Ankara. He had no enemy left on his way to become self-proclaimed Conqueror of the World (see his personal emblem, the three circles in a triangle, representing the three know continents), except the Ming Emperor. Sure Ming China was s formidable enemy. But numbers, which favoured China, do not always matter. Military prowess are as important. See WW II. Anyway there exist many parallels between Timur and Hitler. I think the "Battle of Beijing" would have been a major battle of world military history. Not only by numbers: 200.000 well-trained Turkic warriors (plus satellites) against 900.000 less-well trained Chinese warriors. Both sides had at their disposal cannons. It would have been highly interesting to see how the two sides used them. After defeat, the Ming emperor would have withdrawn to the south. Maybe Timur would have been content with pillaging Beijing as he did with Delhi. But maybe he would have tried to restore the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China. He saw himself as Genghis Khan's heir. He may have tried to push south. But the Ming emperor had a counter strategy. Possibly the greatest strategy of whole human military history. Who wants to guess?

Originally posted by erwin I think Timur would have conquered Beijing. His army was the best in the world of his time. He had even defeated the "Sword of Islam", the Osman sultan Bajazid I in the famous battle of Ankara. He had no enemy left on his way to become self-proclaimed Conqueror of the World (see his personal emblem, the three circles in a triangle, representing the three know continents), except the Ming Emperor. Sure Ming China was s formidable enemy. But numbers, which favoured China, do not always matter. Military prowess are as important. See WW II. Anyway there exist many parallels between Timur and Hitler. I think the "Battle of Beijing" would have been a major battle of world military history. Not only by numbers: 200.000 well-trained Turkic warriors (plus satellites) against 900.000 less-well trained Chinese warriors. Both sides had at their disposal cannons. It would have been highly interesting to see how the two sides used them. After defeat, the Ming emperor would have withdrawn to the south. Maybe Timur would have been content with pillaging Beijing as he did with Delhi. But maybe he would have tried to restore the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China. He saw himself as Genghis Khan's heir. He may have tried to push south. But the Ming emperor had a counter strategy. Possibly the greatest strategy of whole human military history. Who wants to guess?

Whatever the case China's population would have surely dropped another 20-30,000,000 if Timur would manage to get to Ming's major cities.



A colored picture of Yong Le.