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Was it a good strategy to push Hitler eastwards?

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was it a good strategy to push Hitler eastwards?
    Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:18
Originally posted by Bankotsu

It's a fact that Brittain and France pushed Germany to the East.
No it isn't. The historical FACT is that Germany attacked France and the rest of western Europe north of the Pyrenees before it attacked any communist country.
 
That's the FACT. Everything else is speculation and/or fantasy and/or Stalinist propaganda.
 
Germany wasn't 'pushed to the east' by any country, except when his attack on Britain was defeated and there was nowhere else for him to go in the west. What was Britain supposed to do - allow Hitler to occupy it?

That is true. Britain's strategy of turning Germany eastwards to destroy Soviet Union is historical fact.
No it isn't. See above. Once appeasement failed, Britain OPPOSED Germany moving east. The worldwide Communist movement publicly opposed Britain and France going to war against Germany at all, and approved Stalin's alliance with Hitler.
 
Apart from short term considerations, this conformed to then current Marxist predictions that capitalism would lead to some form of right-wing tyranny like Nazism or Fascism in order to grease the path to world revolution. (A contemporary parallel would be the the religious ultra-right seeking Israeli domination of Palestine as a prelude to the second coming of Christ.)
 
Those are the FACTS.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:44
Originally posted by Bankotsu

The above is hardly the most unbiased of links.


It is completely biased in favour of USSR, as it is after all published by a soviet propaganda agency.

Below source by American historian Carroll Quigley would be more neutral:

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html
 

However, I still await any EVIDENCE other than comments, alleged conversations etc. None of these are evidence of what British policy was.
 
Before we touch on the issue of evidence, I hope that there could be some agreement on the basic facts.

(1) The Chamberlain government in 1937 made the decision to reach a general anglo-german settlement and to resolve differences between Germany and Britain.

(2) This policy was executed by Chamberlain government in the years 1937-1939 and eventually failed. The first diplomatic act to carry out this plan for anglo-german settlement was carried by Halifax by his visit to Hitler in November 1937.

Anyone is in disagreement with the above two points?
 
The first one is wrong, so the second doesn't matter very much. It wasn't an 'Anglo-German' settlement that was being sought, but a general European one - in particular Italy-France-Germany-Britain as the leading powers, the SU having already aligned itself with Germany.
 
Up until the Anschluss, in March 1938, it was generally expected that Mussolini would oppose German expansion, seeing Hitler as a dangerous rival. Mussolini's 1938 turnabout took everyone by surprise. Still, since technically the Anschluss was invited by the Austrians, there wasn't too much Britain, France and Italy could do about it (even though it contravened Versailles). Italy was the only country that could possibly have used force in the area.
 
'Appeasement' only became a fixed policy with the demand on the Sudetenland later that year, resulting in the Munich agreement of September 1938. It ended the following March with the occupation of what is now the Czech republic and the 'independence' of Slovakia.
 
That led immediately to the decision to step up the preparations for war that had started the previous summer in the 1938 'crisis' when I remember buildings being sandbagged for protection and air raid shelters being made available. It also of course led to the guarantees made to other eastern countries, and eventually to the declaration of war in September 1939.
 
So the policy of appeasement lasted only six months. And in any case the hope behind it was the somewhat naive one that Hitler's territorial ambitions could be satisfied in any direction. If you're 'pushing someone to the east' you don't give guarantees to all its eastern neighbours.
 
Meanwhile the Soviet Union had continued with the pursuit of its own interests leading at its height to the agreement of August 1938 and the subsequent carving up between Germany and the SU of the remaining countries of north-east Europe (though Finland did manage fight off the Red Army and keep its independence).
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 14:31
A lot of that is in error gcle2003.

'Appeasement' only became a fixed policy with the demand on the Sudetenland later that year, resulting in the Munich agreement of September 1938.


What about this:

On 26 November 1937, one week after Halifax’s conversation with Hitler, Chamberlain wrote to his sister that he hoped to satisfy German colonial demands by giving them the Belgian Congo and Angola in place of Tanganyika.  He then added:  “I don’t see why we shouldn’t say to Germany, ‘Give us satisfactory assurances that you won’t use force to deal with the Austrians and Czechoslovakians, and we will give you similar assurances that we won’t use force to prevent the changes you want if you can get them by peaceful means.' ”

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html

The evidence shows that policy of appeasement was from 1937 onwards to 1939.




Edited by Bankotsu - 11-Jun-2008 at 14:48
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 17:11
 
....sorry, this is another collection of 'picked information from a similar thread, seems lazy i know, but its still relevant to what is beeing discussed here...

 

…..In the 1930’s Britain was the greatest world, colonial and imperial power. After the WWI, the imperial position had significantly improved with Britain gaining many new Arab and African territories; however, there was a loss to be considered in marketing and investment. World War I cost Britain £4 billion in money rates even then. Despite this, Britain remained an economic power until WWII when relative economic decline had set in for good. The prevailing view in government circles was that another war would not be good and costly even if you win! By 1926, Britain had no territorial ambitions and wanted to keep the peace. War was felt to be harmful to commercial and financial interests and the overriding factor to maintain peace and stability…….

 

…..The British attitude towards Hitler in the 1930’s was the same, there was moral opposition but it was not commercially viable to physically oppose the regime in Nazi Germany, Britain firmly remained a bastion of self-interest. In addition, a significant amount of pacifist sentiment found expression in Britain. Many feared a war even worse than the WWI. There were deep memories of WWI and few believed that another political leader would use war as an instrument of foreign policy again, but without bargaining for the fanatical and disturbed Adolf Hitler.(remember we know this now with the benefit of historical hindsight, it was not so clear cut then what Hitler’s ambitions were)….

..another reason that led to the policy of appeasement was the English channel. The British navy was no longer the protective body it once was and there was a fear of the new superiority of airpower. Many felt that in the event of war, it would be the bombers that would get through. Chamberlain believed this, and his fear was grounded in not being able to protect British cities, the logic therefore was not to go to war…..

..another reason for the policy of appeasement  was that Britain was now an overstretched power with a colonial empire far too big to manage effectively, which again caused worry over issues of defence. What if Italy, Japan, and Germany attacked parts of the empire? How could Britain defend against this? How to defend what they already had? Such predominant thinking encouraged and developed into a strong ‘defensive attitude’….

..one economic reason for applying a policy of appeasement arose when the government considered the cost of Defence expenditure. In 1918, £2.5 billion was spent on defence and in 1924, this had been reduced to £130 million, but there was still the need to make this figure even lower. In 1928, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was Winston Churchill. Churchill had enquired with the Joint Chiefs of Staff if war was coming and when the answer was no, there was no raise in expenditure…..

..as a direct result of these concerns, in the late 1930’s the minister of Coordination of defence, Thomas Inskip, produced a report which dealt with Britain’s ability to catch up with Germany’s defence spending. There were two factors to consider in this report. One, the UK had too many enemies to fight at once. Two, the UK could only win a long drawn out war using economic advantage. As a result of this report, Britain minimised naval spending, did not spend any more on the army and put most of the budget into fighter aircraft for defence. Britain could then use its ‘4th arm’ of defence by using financial advantage to economically starve the enemy to ‘death.’ The idea was implicitly to  ‘buy off’ potential enemies until military ‘defence’ is ready. This is where the idea of ‘appeasement’ came from and there is logic to this policy. Britain at the tail end of the 1930’s was a cautious, introspective nation looking to avoid war….

 

..if appeasement was only designed to push Hitler into aggressive action against the Soviet Union? Why did Britain eventually go to war? I tell you why. Once again, it was total British self-interest; there was no such plan to ‘kill two birds with one stone,’ and no ‘plan’ to aid Hitler in defeating Communism. To put it even more simply, just take a look at British imperial policy throughout the country’s history, total self-interest all the way. So why is it so difficult to comprehend these were the exact same reasons why Britain chose appeasement, and conversely, then went to war….

….so why was there an ardent decision to go to war in September 1939 and not in September 1938? Did ‘appeasement’ still exist in 1939? One answer is yes it did, so why did Chamberlain decide to got to war. By the time 1939 arrived, the reasons had nothing to do Czechoslovakia, Poland, or even the Danzig Port. In the greater scheme of things, these issues are irrelevant as far as British interests go. The answer is simple and clear-cut. The ‘reasons’ were that empire, trade, power, self-interest were all more important to Britain in 1939 than in 1938…..

 

..on the 15th March 1939, Germany moved to occupy Prague. The German forces invade through Bohemia and Moravia, but Slovakia maintains ‘independence’ for the time being by becoming a German ‘satellite.’ So is this the turning point on the road to war? After all, this is the first time that non-German peoples have been ‘absorbed’ by German actions. This is not a revision of the Versailles treaty, and all Hitler’s rhetoric has been proved false. Hitler’s intentions are now clear, the total domination of central and south-eastern Europe. Chamberlain’s reaction to this is two-fold with differing outlooks. His first reaction is in a speech at the House of Commons on the 15th March 1939. In this statement, Chamberlain is still looking at ‘appeasement’, and the chance for negotiation through peaceful means. Chamberlain’s second reaction came two days later on the 17th March 1939 at a speech in Birmingham Town Hall, his own constituency. This time chamberlain’s attitude is firmer. He is more harder on Hitler and points to the dangers of a coming war, and appears ready to stand firm on the issue of further Nazi aggression. It has been pointed out that the ‘human aspect’ to Chamberlain’s reaction on the 15th might have been an automatic reaction. By the 17th, Chamberlain had time to think about the situation and possibly felt cheated, fooled, and hence the more non-appeasing stance and more bitter statement concerning Hitler’s action. In addition, Chamberlain was feeling the pressure from more hard-line anti-Nazi’s in British government, and the harder stance was Chamberlain’s attempt to consolidate his leadership in a bid to keep power of the Conservative Party. It might be that Chamberlain was still following ‘appeasement’ but was being reluctantly drawn away from the policy. The Munich settlement can now be seen as moral and practical mistake with Hitler viewed in a different light. This is particularly highlighted by the ‘Night of Broken Glass’ (Kristallnacht), which reinforces the moral mistake of dealing with someone who cannot be dealt with on a rational basis. Such issues usher in a shift of government policy and a change in opinion in Chamberlain who is now questioning the validity of appeasement. He is less convinced that the policy will now work……..

 

….so why the change in policy and viewpoint for Chamberlain and government? During January and February of 1939, a series of rumours about Hitler’s next move are beginning to circulate amongst government members, and remember that this is shortly after the ‘Munich Settlement’ (30th September 1938). There is some speculation about Nazi intentions. This includes possible threats to Holland, Ukraine, the Danzig port and even Switzerland, however these rumours are all false (for the time being). Nevertheless, these rumours are taken seriously enough that perhaps shows a lack of confidence in the ‘finality’ of the Munich Settlement. (Some of these rumours were deliberately circulated by anti-Nazi opposition in Germany in a bid to push Britain into action against Hitler and the Nazi’s, and as far as this goes, the tactic is fairly successful, and Britain does begin to act!)….The prime ministerial cabinet decided that if Holland was threatened, Britain would go to war with Germany. This is no vague statement, but a firm statement of intention, most definitely not appeasement, however such threats are just rumour for now. Nevertheless, by February 1939, the cabinet made a decision that ushered in an increase in the British army. The British were now talking more positively with the French, and formulating the idea of sending a British Expeditionary Force to Europe. It now looks like Britain is getting psychologically ready to go to war and events are looking inevitable. The conclusion that could be drawn is that even before Prague was occupied, Britain was slowly abandoning ‘appeasement’, so in effect, Prague was ‘not’ the great turning point in policy and the decision to go to war…..

 

….the British reaction to the Czechoslovakian ‘crisis’ is important. How much of a turning point was all this in Anglo-French thoughts towards Hitler’s actions? By the 15th of March, the Czechoslovakian episode was done and dusted. However, by the end of March 1939, there was an Anglo-French guarantee to Poland. Why was this? What were Britain and Chamberlain’s motivation in this issue? The answer to these questions lies in the fact that both Poland and Romania were seen as important to British self-interests. Before the Czech crisis was concluded there was a Polish ‘crisis’ that remained largely undetected until the Czech episode was finalised. The Versailles treaty seems to be at the heart of this crisis.  Before the end of World War I, there was no Polish state since the 18th century when the Pole’s were absorbed into Russia. Nevertheless, Polish nationalism survived and negotiations at the ‘Peace of Paris’ (1918) conference allowed the birth of a ‘new’ Poland and national recognition.  In 1919, the geographical problem was where this ‘new’ Poland should be. There were no obvious boundaries and physical limits to the new country’s borders. In addition, how would Poland conduct its domestic affairs? The ongoing crisis in Polish affairs came to ahead in 1938/1939. Poland needed access to the sea and was granted the port of Danzig, but this was a German town and it was 'given’ to Poland. Danzig was to be overseen by the League of Nations to help ease tensions, but trouble was still brewing among those who believed that Danzig should be totally German…..

 

…. By October 1938, the problem started to present itself in more serious terms. Berlin started to put pressure on Warsaw to deal with this issue. Ribbentrop attempted to ‘talk’ to the Pole’s to end this ‘situation’, but the Pole’s were naturally unwilling to budge on the issue. This is the crisis that preceded the Czechoslovakian episode. Hitler wanted short-term co-operation with Poland and desired Poland becoming a ‘semi-satellite’ to Germany. Hitler also wanted access to Danzig via a road/rail system that would go through the ‘Polish corridor’. (this was not to be an invasion just yet). It has been stated that the ‘Danzig problem’ was a barometer of German/Polish relations according to what was happening with the port. Hitler felt that there would not be problem with this and believed the Pole’s would concede to his demands. On the other hand, the Pole’s, in western eyes, were not a people in the ‘good books’. Poland had played a poor part in the Czech crisis and demanded their part of territory and they took it after Munich! The Polish government was also distrusted because of the slippery nature of their Foreign Minister Josef Beck (However, he did not give in to Hitler’s demands for influence in Polish affairs). There was also an agreement/peace pact in 1934 between Poland and Germany, which Hitler thought would aid the concession to his demands. However, it did not! Strangely enough, in 1938/39, the port of Danzig was not very important to the Pole’s either. Poland had another port in the west called ‘Gdynia’ that was more successful in trading and commerce. Despite this, Poland did not want to give up Danzig as this would set a dangerous precedent by allowing Germany a strategic gain; what would the Nazi’s demand next? For Poland, this was a fine political balancing act between German demands and the prospect of having Russia on its borders ready to pounce (there being no great enmity between USSR and Poland)…..

 

….As far as Britain was concerned, the government requested an explanation about what was is going on, but no answer was given by the Polish Foreign Minister Josef Beck, who believed that Poland could handle the issue on its own. Poland at this time, held onto a self-belief in its military strength and enough self-confidence to turn down help. In addition, the Polish believed that if Britain and France got involved, it would make Hitler more determined to act aggressively. In Britain, it was seen as if the Pole’s were playing down the crisis. So why did Britain suddenly help Poland by extending a guarantee to help militarily?…

 

..the answer is Romania. Here lies Britain’s main concern at the time. There were primary British interests in Romanian oilfields and grain supplies. Rumours were again still filtering throughout Whitehall. A Romanian diplomat and junior official called ‘Tilea’ made an appearance at Whitehall on the 16th March 1939 claiming that Berlin was putting pressure on Bucharest to fall in line with Nazi thinking or face invasion. There was no real substance to this claim, but Britain was sufficiently alarmed to respond to these statements. When Tilea met Chamberlain, the thought was in the Prime Ministers’ mind that Hitler was not just focusing on Czechoslovakia but also Romania as well. This gave the British Government reason to be concerned…..

 

…Chamberlain’s reaction to all this was to attempt to construct an ‘eastern front’ against Hitler and bring in as many states in Eastern Europe to rally against Hitler’s perceived intentions. (France, Britain, USSR, that is the USSR and Poland were to be employed to protect Romania). However, the fundamental key in all this was Poland. Poland was in a good position to protect Romania but it was recognised that Poland would refuse to accept Russian influence within its borders, so effectively Romania cannot be adequately protected. The advice to Chamberlain was that the ‘best bet’ was to safeguard Poland and create an association that will help protect Romania. In the process of trying to develop this ‘eastern front’, the German and Polish situation erupts. At the end of March 1939, Ian Colvin, a newsman in Berlin, heard rumours that Poland not Romania was going to be the next point of crisis, and that the Nazi’s would invade over the Danzig issue. Chamberlain had by now switched his attention to Poland instead of Romania (not Danzig however, but Poland the country). The Anglo French guarantee now comes about, but not over Danzig, but Poland. On the 13th April, a guarantee is given to Greece, and in May 1939, a guarantee is given to Turkey, perhaps as a part of the eastern front policy? It now looks like that appeasement has been effectively compromised as Chamberlain was willing to negotiate away Danzig but would not let Poland go?…

 

….Although here is a rational and logical reason for this action, it is a  bit cynical. The problem that remained was how to support Poland. As there was no difference between Poland and Czechoslovakia, there is nothing practical to do, so Britain did not offer military or economic resources to Poland, and this aspect has brought Chamberlain much criticism.  However, there is logic in these actions. Firstly, why waste valuable British resources when Britain can preserve its hardware to defend or attack Germany in the future. Secondly, a cynical view is that Chamberlain believed that he had to take the initiative by stating to the world and Germany that Britain will be active in ‘drawing the line’ in Poland. Thirdly, there is the idea that Hitler would have to respond to Britain’s threat and take Poland where there would be border disputes with USSR that would hopefully weaken Germany in any later conflict with Britain. (use of the USSR again, but not a freehold wish to allow Hitler to destroy the Soviet union, just real-politic). However, for the time being Poland was seen as the best place to make a stand. As far as chamberlain was concerned, it was choice between ‘two devils?’ Chamberlain may have still been looking for a negotiated settlement, but by now, was most likely ‘hoping for the best, but preparing for the worst’. however, as we all know, Hitler attacked Poland and Britain went to war….the attack on Poland was against British economic interests in that Romania was believed to be next. On the 1st September 1939, Hitler invaded Poland, but the declaration of war from the British came on the 3rd September. the delay in declaring war was Partly because the French refused to declare immediately before they had fully mobilised and Britain was waiting to synchronise. This most definitely is not appeasement…….

 

..appeasement had nothing to do with forcing Hitler and Stalin together in mutual defeat….by now appeasement had been grounded and there were pragmatic and self-interested reasons why Britain gave up the policy and went to war. Economic considerations meant that in 1938, Britain could not have entered into a long drawn out war, (as was usual with British tactics to starve the enemy into defeat), as the economy was not strong enough. However, in 1939, the situation appeared different to Chamberlain. Intelligence reports from Germany indicated that the German economy was in a poor state due to rearmament, and could not sustain the growth, and there appeared to be some resistance to the Nazi’s from the working class. Chamberlain was by now receiving advice that the British economy was improving and that it was now possible for Britain to fight a long term conflict as well as in the short-term. However, the economy was believed to be at the peak of its performance and if there was any delay in action, the situation could worsen, ‘this was the optimum moment to act’…..with regards to Allies, France was now better prepared militarily and more confident in its position. The USA were on the fringe providing economic supplies and they appeared more inclined to deal with the Japanese, thus removing the ‘tripartite alliance’ problem solely from Britain’s shoulders (that meant there was less threat to the Empire). For Britain, there was now only Germany to deal with. Italy was showing no signs of entering into a conflict and Japan was facing pressure from the USA…..the imperial dominions were generally appeasers (apart from New Zealand, South Africa, Australia,) but in 1939, the view had changed and they were expressing the opinion that if London was prepared to go to war, then the Empire would follow….

 

..while there are several criticisms to be aimed at Chamberlain’s actions, using appeasement as a policy to induce Hitler and Stalin to wipe each other out was not one of them.  Perhaps if Britain knew that Poland could not be saved, there should have been firmer negotiations with the USSR? There were indeed talks, but there remained a fear of Communism infiltrating into Europe and Britain’s half-hearted negotiation techniques caused a collapse of talks with the USSR. Besides, the Pole’s did not want to deal with the USSR and certainly did not want Soviet troops in Polish territory, they might not leave at a later date. (Later Proven to be a true). In addition, Hitler was very much aware of the USSR and in the summer of 1939, he was approaching the Russian’s to do a deal through diplomatic talks and the offer of possible treaties and pacts. A pragmatic Stalin does not want to deal with the Soviet’s ideological enemies, but he ‘shrugs shoulders’ and does do a deal. Stalin realises that by siding with the west will only bring war (an event he to wished to avoid until a future date), and Hitler is offering territorial gains as part of the deal. The August 1939 ‘pact’ contained a hidden agenda that Poland would be divided between Germany and Russia. (This deal was not a shock to Britain who had received intelligence reports noting the proposed deal, but Chamberlain believed that it would come to nothing, in this respect Chamberlain was short-sighted in not bringing in the Russians at an earlier opportunity)…..

 

….If there was going to be war, then this was the best time to enter into a conflict. It was not wanted but now there appeared to be no choice…..at no time did the British government and Chamberlain entertain the idea of aiding Hitler in his eastern policy….some may have thought such things, but this was most certainly not the intention of appeasement policy…some may have thought that is what was happening, but they were on the fringes of government, critics and opponents of Chamberlain both personally and professionally, and not directly involved in the planning and execution, this was Chamberlain’s ‘baby’…and he wanted a total peace in Europe and did what he could to try and achieve this…
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 03:08
Originally posted by gcle2003

No it isn't. See above. Once appeasement failed, Britain OPPOSED Germany moving east. The worldwide Communist movement publicly opposed Britain and France going to war against Germany at all, and approved Stalin's alliance with Hitler.
 
Apart from short term considerations, this conformed to then current Marxist predictions that capitalism would lead to some form of right-wing tyranny like Nazism or Fascism in order to grease the path to world revolution. (A contemporary parallel would be the the religious ultra-right seeking Israeli domination of Palestine as a prelude to the second coming of Christ.)
 
Those are the FACTS.
 
Britain ignored all the USSR attempts to conclude alliance against Germany.
Britain sold Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany.
Britain didn't express any meaningful will to conclude the defence alliance with the USSR in the summer of 1939, British represantatvie on the negotiations didn't even have enough power to sign any agreement or give any assurances (see Churchill).
Britain didn't provide any military aid to its Polish ally despite all the "guarantees."
Britain for half a year after Polish defeat didn't make any serious attempt to military threaten Germany (Phoney War).
 
Those are facts.
 
And honestly I think its strange not to recognize that the best scenario for the British foreign policy would be to stay neutral in the confrontation between Germany and the USSR. IMO it was a very wise policy complitely in the interests of Britain. And nobody really knew at this time how "bad" Nazist were. But what for sure is that the Nazist were viewed as more "civil" than the Soviets.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 12-Jun-2008 at 03:09
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 03:27
Originally posted by Sarmat12

  
It's just a poster. Not a scientific research on  exact European foreign policy before WWII.
 
But it's funny, however, when one tries to argue how good and wise was the "Munich treason," in fact, the same animal with the "Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact."
 
I am curious as to who exactly tries to argue that the Munich was good and wise from the Allies' perspective (I assume that is what you meant).  I would be quite happy to enthusiastically argue against that view of it.  As far as I'm concerned, the Munich agreement was an unmitigated disaster for the Allies.  That was probably their last chance to stop Hitler early on at relatively little cost.  It was 'thrown away' for nothing more than Hitler's worthless 'promise' that he would behave.  I could certainly go on, but that would be diverging ever further from the original point of discussion of this thread.  Bottomline is that I agree that Munich was much 'the same animal' as the M-R Pact.  Only I would say that Munich was worse.
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 04:09
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Britain ignored all the USSR attempts to conclude alliance against Germany.
Britain sold Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany.
Britain didn't express any meaningful will to conclude the defence alliance with the USSR in the summer of 1939, British represantatvie on the negotiations didn't even have enough power to sign any agreement or give any assurances (see Churchill).
Britain didn't provide any military aid to its Polish ally despite all the "guarantees."
Britain for half a year after Polish defeat didn't make any serious attempt to military threaten Germany (Phoney War).
 
Those are facts.
 
And honestly I think its strange not to recognize that the best scenario for the British foreign policy would be to stay neutral in the confrontation between Germany and the USSR. IMO it was a very wise policy complitely in the interests of Britain. And nobody really knew at this time how "bad" Nazist were. But what for sure is that the Nazist were viewed as more "civil" than the Soviets.
 
Not quite true that Britain ignored all such attempts by the Soviets, but it is true that Chamberlain initially did 'freeze out' the Soviets from the Munich negotiations.  Later, after Hitler had violated Munich, Chamberlain was in an awkward position with respect to the Soviets.  Although he was willing at that point (finally) to cooperate with them in an anti-Nazi alliance, Poland was adamant that the Red Army would not be allowed on Polish soil (nor even to overfly it) under any circumstances.
 
Recall that Churchill was both writing after the fact, and from the perspective of an 'outsider' who was highly critical of the government at the time.   Even with as much respect as I have for Mr. Churchill and his role in history, I'm not sure I would simply accept everything he has to say on this without question.
 
I tend to agree with you regarding the lack of practical assistance for Poland.  The fact is that Chamberlain was only in a position to 'guarantee' that Britain would declare war on Germany if Germany attacked Poland.  Britain was not in a position to prevent Germany from doing pretty much what they wanted for 6 months or 1 year.  That being said, it was really France who let down Poland the most.  France had the 'original' treaty with Poland and was obligated to assist given the circumstances - and France at least had the army in a position to do something (unlike Britain).  However, perhaps all of that is a topic for another thread.
 
As for Britain remaining neutral in a conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union - that was difficult.  First, as I previously mentioned, Britain had created circumstances under which it was practically impossible for Germany to 'get at' the Soviet Union without finding themselves at war with Britain.  If Britain had 'stood aside' while Germany and the Soviet Union fought it out, there was perhaps a greater risk that the Nazi's might win.  Finally, if the Soviet Union had defeated Germany 'single-handedly' in such a scenario, there was a risk of even more of Europe ending up on the 'wrong' side of the 'Iron Curtain'.   Britain fighting against Germany was probably the 'best' way to 'salvage' some sort of balance after the war, although the 'destruction' of Germany was of course extremely disruptive to the 'status quo' and the best possible 'solution' from Britain's perpsective was to attempt to avoid such a war entirely (which they tried, but not very effectively).


Edited by deadkenny - 12-Jun-2008 at 04:15
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 05:50
Originally posted by Bankotsu


deadkenny's interpretation of history is mostly the british propagandist version, which is not accurate.

It takes time to unlearn the british propagandist version and learn the more factual and accurate interpretation of history....

Britain turn Germany east is true, british propagandist version is false.

That is completely true....
 
No, that is simply not true.  In fact the 'British propaganda version' would go something like - the British were 'forced' to 'sell out' Czechoslovakia because they needed to 'buy time' in order to rearm.  The Germans had gained a considerable head start in building up their airforce, and British cities were wide open to a bombardment that could knock Britain out of the war right at the start.
 
Now that version I would say is false because it appears to me that Chamberlain sincerely believed that he had won 'peace' at Munich.  Furthermore, the truth is that the British didn't get really serious about rearmament until after the Germans had violated the Munich agreement in March 1939.  So what I would say the truth is as follows:
 
Hitler publically claimed that he wanted to 'save' the Sudetenland Germans from Czech domination by including the predominantly German areas in the Reich.  Of course, that was not his true objective, he wanted to occupy all of Czechoslovakia and was only using the Sudetenland issues as a plausible pretext for acting against the Czechs.  However, Chamberlain took Hitler at his word (foolishly) and attempted to avoid a war by getting Hitler what he wanted (or at least what Hitler publically claimed that he wanted) by negotiation.  THAT was what 'appeasement' was about - avoiding war by granting concessions in negotiated settlements.  When Germany violated the Munich agreement only a few months afterwards, the policy of appeasement was at an end. However, British policy had never been about 'forcing Hitler east', as has been claimed.  It had been about avoiding war by making concessions to (apparently) reasonable demands in the course of negotiations.  Once Hitler demonstrated that he would not live up to his agreements, British policy actually become the exact opposite of 'forcing Hitler east' - it became trying to avoid war by making it clear that Germany would have to fight Britain (and France) if Germany attacked any other small country.  This 'forcing Hitler east' theory is nothing but an attempt to 'excuse' Stalin for making a deal with Hitler himself.  If Britain was in fact trying to 'force Hitler east', then Stalin 'forcing Hitler west' simply becomes a case of 'turn about is fair play'.  If on the other hand one admits that Britain was simply trying to avoid a war entirely by a couple of ill-conceived and failed policies, then one will tend to see Stalin's deal with Hitler as the cynical self-serving deal that it in fact was.  


Edited by deadkenny - 12-Jun-2008 at 05:53
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 06:01

Deadkenny, I want to clarify my position. I don't think that Britain was "forcing" Hitler to the East. I actully think that British didn't apply any "force" to Germany although they should have done that. But I do think that British thought that directing the German aggression (if such happen) to the East would be the more favorable scenario.

And I aslo think that Munich and Molotov Ribbentrop pact were equally cynnically self-serving deals.

But do you really think that Hitler and Stalin view the pact as something more meaningful than tactical temporary gain and buying some time before the final confrontation?

Apparently, they didn't.
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 06:52
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Deadkenny, I want to clarify my position. I don't think that Britain was "forcing" Hitler to the East. I actully think that British didn't apply any "force" to Germany although they should have done that. But I do think that British thought that directing the German aggression (if such happen) to the East would be the more favorable scenario.

And I aslo think that Munich and Molotov Ribbentrop pact were equally cynnically self-serving deals.

But do you really think that Hitler and Stalin view the pact as something more meaningful than tactical temporary gain and buying some time before the final confrontation?

Apparently, they didn't.
 
We've had a similar debate previously regarding our differing views of the M-R Pact.  However, in this thread I was trying to focus more on the original 'theory' being put forward. 
 
Regarding the 'directing' of German aggression east, again I will just point to the guarantee to Poland which was, IMHO, intended to try to prevent German aggression and certainly operated in the 'opposite' sense of 'directing' German aggression east - i.e. by forcing Germany to fight France and Britain before they could possibly 'get at' the Soviet Union.
 
Regarding Hitler's and Stalin's own views of the pact - Hitler's is completely clear.  Yes, it was a short term expediency 'forced' on him by Britain.  Hitler wanted to go east in the first place.  He was temporarily frustrated in that by the British guarantee to Poland.  He even hoped that Britain and France were bluffing and might end the 'war' after Poland was destroyed.  When they refused, Hitler was 'forced' to go west first.  With France defeated but Britain still defiant, Hitler was faced with something of a dilemma.  There was no major 'western front' in France, so he decided to go east then rather than fight a prolonged war against Britain before going east. 
 
With Stalin, it is less clear.  Certainly Hitler broke the deal first, and clearly achieved a significant measure of 'surprize'.  So clearly Stalin was not expecting to have to fight as early as summer 1941.  In fact, Stalin probably expected the fighting in France to drag on for a number of years, as it had in WWI.  He probably also expected Germany to be weakened after a drawn out battle of attrition.  The quick collapse of France probably 'shocked' Stalin as much as anyone.  However, Stalin's reaction was his own version of 'appeasement'.  Molotov was sent to Berlin to 'complain' about various German 'transgressions' of their agreement - Finland and Rumania were supposed to be in the Soviet 'sphere of influence' and yet Germany had sent troops to both and had 'guaranteed' Rumanian territory in the wake of the Soviet annexation of Bessarabia and Bukovina and the 'Vienna Award' (the settlement of the Hungarian / Rumanian dispute over Transylvania).  However, as Hitler started to take a harder line and mass troops in the east, Stalin backed off and started to ensure that Soviet deliveries of raw materials were maintained on time, even when German payments lagged.  However, I do not believe that Stalin hoped to avoid a conflict with Germany indefinitely at that point.  The Red Army was in the middle of a major re-org and re-equipment effort.  I believe that Stalin was desperate to avoid a conflict in 1941, however with the re-org complete and the new equipment deployed (e.g. T-34's) I believe the Soviets would have been ready in 1942.  Stalin also viewed the deal as 'short term', especially in the wake of the collapse of France.  He just hoped / expected to have one more year than he got. 


Edited by deadkenny - 12-Jun-2008 at 06:54
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 06:59
One important fact that is usually not pointed out in english history books when discussing Munich agreement was that Hitler in 1938 did not want to annex sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia.

I must repeat this fact.

Hitler original intent in 1938 was not to annex sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia.

Hitler intent in 1938 was to use the crisis between the Czech government and the Sudeten German Party as a pretext to unleash a war against Czechoslovakia and split it up into smaller states.

Here is Hitler's directive for "Operation Green":

It is my unalterable decision to smash Czechoslovakia by military action in the near future. It is the business of the political leadership to await or bring about the suitable moment from a political and military point of view...

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~pv/munich/czdoc05.html

Hitler's intent was to liquidate off Czechoslovakia and end its existence as a state.

Annex sudetenland region and thus leave Czechoslovakia alive was not his original intent.


... The details do not concern us here, but it should be mentioned that the dispute arose over the position of the Sudeten Germans within the Czechoslovak state, and as late as 15 September 1938 was still being expressed in those terms. 


Up to that day, Hitler had made no demand to annex the Sudeten area, although on 12 September he had for the first time asked for “self-determination” for the Sudetens.

Konrad Henlein, Hitler’s agent in Czechoslovakia and leader of the Sudeten Germans, expressed no desire “to go back to the Reich” until after 12 September. 

Who, then, first demanded frontier rectification in favor of Germany?

Chamberlain did so privately on 10 May 1938, and the Milner Group did so publicly on 7 September 1938. 

The Chamberlain suggestion was made by one of those “calculated indiscretions” of which he was so fond, at an “off-the-record” meeting with certain Canadian and American newspaper reporters at a luncheon arranged by Lady Astor and held at her London house.  On this occasion Chamberlain spoke of his plans for a four-power pact to exclude Russia from Europe and the possibility of frontier revisions in favor of Germany to settle the Sudeten issue. 

When the news leaked out, as it was bound to do, Chamberlain was questioned in Commons by Geoffrey Mander on 20 June but refused to answer, calling his questioner a troublemaker.

This answer was criticized by Sir Archibald Sinclair the following day, but he received no better treatment.  Lady Astor, however, interjected, “I would like to say that there is not a word of truth in it.” 

By 27 June, however, she had a change of heart and stated:  “I never had any intention of denying that the Prime Minister had attended a luncheon at my house.  The Prime Minister did so attend, the object being to enable some American journalists who had not previously met him to do so privately and informally, and thus to make his acquaintance.”

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html

Neville Chamberlain intervened in the Czech crisis of 1938 in order to stop Hitler's plans to invade Czechoslovakia.

He did so because if Hitler attacked Czechoslovakia, there might be a risk that a european war might break out. France and USSR were bound by treaty to come and assist Czechoslovakia if it was attacked.

Chamberlain's plan was to hand over Sudetenland region to Hitler and avoid war.

When Hitler met Chamberlain on 15 September 1938, he changed his mind and instead asked for sudetenland region. Chamberlain accepted this plan because he was the one who pushed for it in the first place, not Hitler.


...It is worthy to note that no public demand was made by either Henlein or Germany to detach the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia until after September 12, 1938, although influential persons in the British government were advocating this, both in public and private, for months before this date.

...In the meantime the British had been working out a plan of their own. It involved, as we have said, (1) separation of the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia, probably through the use of a plebiscite or even by outright partition; (2) neutralization of the rest of Czechoslovakia by revising her treaties with Russia and France, and ( 3 ) guarantee of this rump of Czechoslovakia (but not by Britain). This plan was outlined to the Czech ambassador in London by Lord Halifax on May 25th, and was worked out in some detail by one of Lord Halifax's subordinates, William (now Lord) Strang, during a visit to Prague and to Berlin in the following week. This was the plan which was picked up by Lord Runciman and presented as his recommendation in his report of September 21, 938.

    It is worthy of note that on September 2nd Lord Runciman sent a personal message by Henlein to Hitler in which he said that he would have a settlement drawn up by September 15th.

What is, perhaps, surprising is that Lord Runciman made no use whatever of the Karlsbad Demands or the extensive concessions to meet them which the Czechs had made during these negotiations, but instead recommended to the British Cabinet on September 16th, and in his written report five days later, the same melange of partition, plebiscites, neutralization, and guarantee which had been in the mind of the British Foreign Office for weeks.

It was this plan which was imposed on the Czechs by the Four-Power Conference at Munich on September 30th.

http://real-world-news.org/bk-quigley/13.html#45



Edited by Bankotsu - 12-Jun-2008 at 08:39
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:08
And why did Chamberlain wanted Hitler to devour Sudetenland region?

Why did he insist on it?

Here is the real reason, which cannot be found in any english history textbook:


Beijing, February 18, 1973, 2:43–7:15 p.m.

Talks between Chou En-lai, Premier of China and Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs:

PM Chou: Originally Western Europe had hoped that Germany would go eastwards.

Dr. Kissinger: Western Europe.

PM Chou: At Munich.

Dr. Kissinger: Yes, at Munich. Western Europe had very superficial leaders. They didn’t have the courage to pursue any policy towards a conclusion. Once they had done Munich it made no sense to fight for Poland. But that is a different issue. And I don’t blame Stalin, because from his point of view he gained himself the essential time...

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/100320.pdf
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/xviii/


We are told sometimes that the criminal plot of the two dictatorships –  Stalin’s and Hitler’s – was legitimate under the international law of the time. What’s more, it constituted a justified or even essential defense in view of the Munich Agreement concluded in September 1938 among Nazi Germany, Italy, the United Kingdom and France.

That treaty was designed to channel German aggression eastward.

True, it was a shameful Agreement conceived to appease the aggressor at the expense of Czechoslovakia.

-
Statement by His Excellency Mr. Adam Daniel ROTFELD, Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland. Fifty-ninth session of the General Assembly of the United Nations.

http://www.polandun.org/templates/statementRotfeld09may.html


...But why the assumption that Chamberlain's concessions at Munich, and Canberraís involvement in those concessions, were a disaster for the West? Seen from other directions, the conventional view of Munich as weak-kneed appeasement can easily be turned on its head.

In Japan, for example, Munich is seen a stroke of hard-headed realpolitik and perfidious British diplomatic genius. In 1938 Hitler was torn between go-West and go- East strategies. The Munich concessions were crucial in persuading him to look East, the Japanese believe, which led him eventually to the attack on the Soviet Union. But for that attack, Germany would easily have won out against the West, and Japan would then have been able to consolidate its victories in Asia.

The Soviets used to be even more critical. They too saw the Munich concessions and Moscow's exclusion from the September 1938 Munich Conference as part of a clever conspiracy by Western anti-communists to encourage Hitler to attack East...

http://www.gregoryclark.net/mun.html
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:20
Two weeks after Munich Baldwin said in a conversation with Lord Hinchingbrooke: "Can't we turn Hitler East? Napoleon broke himself against the Russians. Hitler might do the same".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Baldwin#Later_life

The notion of "avoiding another Munich" means something wholly different when we understand that Chamberlain was not trying to prevent war at all costs but was, in fact, promoting a war against the hated Soviet Union.

http://www.h-net.org/~hns/articles/1998/090998a.html

In Our Time: The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0853459991/qid=1150459458/


...A very important book, Hitler’s Spy Chief: The Wilhelm Canaris Mystety, was published in November, 2005. It received very little attention but it contained some very interesting new information about the relationship between the British government and Nazi Germany.

The author, Richard Bassett, found some very interesting documents that helps to explain the peace negotiations that went on between the two governments.

Bassett shows that in July, 1938, a powerful group from within Nazi Germany that included Canaris, were on the verge of overthrowing Hitler because they feared war with Britain and France.

The British government became aware of this plot. However, they were determined that Hitler should not be removed from power. The reason, they were expecting Hitler to destroy communism in the Soviet Union...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=7149
http://www.amazon.ca/Hitlers-Spy-Chief-Wilhelm-Canaris/dp/0304367184


The British strategy for dealing with Germany found initial expression in Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain's 'appeasement' policy. The purpose of Chamberlain's 1938 Munich agreement to give the Sudetenland to Germany was, in fact, to push the Germans to the east and into confrontation with the Soviet Union.

http://rwor.org/a/076/ww2-en.html



Edited by Bankotsu - 12-Jun-2008 at 07:36
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:37
Originally posted by Bankotsu

One important fact that is usually not pointed out in english history books when discussing Munich agreement was that Hitler in 1938 did not want to annex sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia.

I must repeat this fact.

Hitler original intent in 1938 was not to annex sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia.

Hitler intent in 1938 was to use the crisis between the Czech government and the Sudeten German Party as a pretext to unleash a war against Czechoslovakia and split it up into smaller states....
 
You are wrong in so far as 'English' history books (or at least history books in English) do not claim that it was Hitler's aim to only annex the Sudetenland.  In fact, as I posted previously, it was Hitler's intent to occupy at least all of Moravia and Bohemia.  However, what Hitler wanted and planned in private, and what he said publically were two different things.  Publically he was only interested in the predominantly German populated areas of the Sudetenland.  Hitler was clearly trying to use what appeared on the surface to be a 'reasonable' demand in order to justify a conflict with Czechoslovakia.  However, Chamberlain took Hitler at his word and attempted to broker a deal that would give Hitler what he had publically said he wanted.  Privately, far from being pleased, Hitler was frustrated at the Munich agreement, as it had eliminated any legitimate pretext for war with Czechoslovakia. 
 
However, again, none of this supports the theory that Britain wanted to 'push' or 'force' Germany east.  It simply points to the fact that Britain was willing to see a chunk of territory, largely populated by Germans, taken from Czechoslovakia and given to Germany in order to 'appease' Germany and thereby avoid a war.  Germany was only supposed to get the Sudetenland, and the remainder of Czecho-Slovak territory was to have been 'guaranteed' by the signatory powers.  Later Hitler 'stage managed' the separation of Slovakia in order to claim that the Czecho-Slovak state had 'disintegrated' and therefore the previous agreement was null and void.  Although Chamberlain 'accepted' this rationale (there wasn't much he could do at that point in any case) to justify failing to fullfill his own guarantee to the Czechs, it did cause Chamberlain to realize that his policy of 'appeasement' was a failure, and therefore resulted in the switch to the policy of 'guarantees' to other small countries against German aggression.  That change in policy is the key point that refutes your theory regarding the 'forcing of Germany eastward'.  If your theory is correct, then Britain's policy was working, as Germany occupied the remaining Czech territory and started to 'target' Poland next.  So all Britain had to do was wait for Germany to take Poland next and then attack the Soviet Union afterwards.  Yet Britain then guaranteed Poland against German aggression, which was a total 180 degree turn from what they should have done if your theory is correct.  The Polish guarantee ensured that Germany in fact could not go east without also fighting France and Britain.  You can post all of the irrelevant Chou / Kissenger transcripts that you want, but unless you address the key issue of the British guarantee to Poland you are consistently missing the mark and failing to support your own claim.


Edited by deadkenny - 12-Jun-2008 at 07:39
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 15:18
Originally posted by deadkenny

I believe that Stalin was desperate to avoid a conflict in 1941, however with the re-org complete and the new equipment deployed (e.g. T-34's) I believe the Soviets would have been ready in 1942.  Stalin also viewed the deal as 'short term', especially in the wake of the collapse of France.  He just hoped / expected to have one more year than he got. 
 
That is true. Stalin simply expected the war to start in 1942, the which was set as the deadline for the complete technical and organizational upgrade of the Red Army.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 19:36
Originally posted by Bankotsu

A lot of that is in error gcle2003.

'Appeasement' only became a fixed policy with the demand on the Sudetenland later that year, resulting in the Munich agreement of September 1938.


What about this:

On 26 November 1937, one week after Halifax’s conversation with Hitler, Chamberlain wrote to his sister that he hoped to satisfy German colonial demands by giving them the Belgian Congo and Angola in place of Tanganyika.  He then added:  “I don’t see why we shouldn’t say to Germany, ‘Give us satisfactory assurances that you won’t use force to deal with the Austrians and Czechoslovakians, and we will give you similar assurances that we won’t use force to prevent the changes you want if you can get them by peaceful means.' ”

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html

The evidence shows that policy of appeasement was from 1937 onwards to 1939.
 
No it doesn't. It shows that making offers to Hitler to appease him was something Chamberlain was considering in November 1937. But thinking of possibly doing something is not adopting a policy. No appeasement policy was adopted until submission to Hitler's demand on the Sudetenland, as I said.
 
From 1938 on Chamberlain was already thinking of going to war against Hitler, if necessary: that's not the same as adopting a policy of guaranteeing making war in support of the eastern European countries, which didn't happen until 1939.
 
You have to learn to recognise what policy actually is, rather than wool-gather around speculations by politicians on what they might do in the future.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 06:37
But thinking of possibly doing something is not adopting a policy. No appeasement policy was adopted until submission to Hitler's demand on the Sudetenland, as I said.


Your statement is in error.

The evidence clearly shows that the policy was adopted and diplomacy executed to carry out the british plan of appeasing Hitler:


...It might be noted that when John W. Wheeler-Bennett, of Chatham House and the Milner Group, wrote his book on Munich:  Prologue to Tragedy, published in 1948, he relegated the last quotation to a footnote and suppressed the references to the Belgian Congo and Angola.

This, however, was an essential part of the appeasement program of the Chamberlain group. 

On 3 March 1938, the British Ambassador in Berlin, Nevile Henderson, one of the Chamberlain group, tried to persuade Hitler to begin negotiations to carry out this plan but did not succeed. 

He repeated Lord Halifax’s statement that changes in Europe were acceptable to Britain if accomplished without “the free play of forces,” and stated that he personally “had often expressed himself in favour of the Anschluss.” 

In the colonial field, he tried to interest Hitler in an area in Africa between the 5th parallel and the Zambezi River, but the Fuhrer insisted that his interest was restricted to restoration of Germany’s 1914 colonies in Africa...

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html


Edited by Bankotsu - 14-Jun-2008 at 06:46
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 11:11
From 1938 on Chamberlain was already thinking of going to war against Hitler, if necessary:


The above statement also seems to be wrong.

According to Carroll Quigley's analysis:

There is no evidence whatever that the Chamberlain government intended to fight over Czechoslovakia unless this was the only alternative to falling from office. 
Even at the height of the crisis, when all ways out without war seemed closed (27 September), Chamberlain showed what he thought of the case by telling the British people over the BBC that the issue was “a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing.”

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html


Chamberlain's speech on 27 Sep 1938 to british public:

...However much we may sympathise with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbour, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that...

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7Epv/munich/czdoc09.html



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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 12:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by gcle2003

No it isn't. See above. Once appeasement failed, Britain OPPOSED Germany moving east. The worldwide Communist movement publicly opposed Britain and France going to war against Germany at all, and approved Stalin's alliance with Hitler.
 
Apart from short term considerations, this conformed to then current Marxist predictions that capitalism would lead to some form of right-wing tyranny like Nazism or Fascism in order to grease the path to world revolution. (A contemporary parallel would be the the religious ultra-right seeking Israeli domination of Palestine as a prelude to the second coming of Christ.)
 
Those are the FACTS.
 
Britain ignored all the USSR attempts to conclude alliance against Germany.
Britain sold Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany.
Britain didn't express any meaningful will to conclude the defence alliance with the USSR in the summer of 1939, British represantatvie on the negotiations didn't even have enough power to sign any agreement or give any assurances (see Churchill).
Britain didn't provide any military aid to its Polish ally despite all the "guarantees."
Britain for half a year after Polish defeat didn't make any serious attempt to military threaten Germany (Phoney War).
 
Those are facts.
Not all of them, they are distortions. Czechoslovakia wasn't 'sold'. That's a silly expression to use. 'Let down', possibly. That there was a policy of appeasement for a short while isn't denied by anyone. That didn't go as far as training the German air force however, which is what Stalin did.
 
Stalin's alliance with Hitler included parcelling out between them the countries of north-eastern Europe. Stalin if you like sold western Poland and Czechoslovakia to Germany, and what he sold them for was eastern Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania.  Are you really suggesting that Britain should have sold those countries to the Soviet Union?
 
Now Britain can be criticised for not doing enough to help the Finns against the Soviets. In fact there was considerable popular feeling we weren't doing enough. But support the Soviets against the Finns and the Baltics? Never.
 
There were two wannabe empires in Europe in the thirties, bent on territorial aggrandisement: Germany and the Soviet Union. They both invaded and conquered their neighbours. Britain and France did not ally themselves with either side, though they did try to keep them at bay.
 
I fail entirely to see how you can criticise Britain for not doing enough to stop the Soviet-German alliance from conquering Poland without mentioning Finland. The problems were much the same in both cases: no access, and no time. The Soviets and the Germans conquered Poland in a month - how was Britain supposed to mount a serious attack in that time? As for coming to the aid of the invaded countries against the Soviet Union, how could Britain have got serious forces into action against Russia? Where would you suggest Britain would attack them?
 
And honestly I think its strange not to recognize that the best scenario for the British foreign policy would be to stay neutral in the confrontation between Germany and the USSR. IMO it was a very wise policy complitely in the interests of Britain. And nobody really knew at this time how "bad" Nazist were. But what for sure is that the Nazist were viewed as more "civil" than the Soviets.
 
 
There was no conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union in the thirties. Moreover if you think Britain only acts or acted 'completely in the interests of Britain' you are wrong.
 
As for the last comment, some people preferred the Nazis, some people preferred the Soviets, most people disliked both of them. Read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia for an accurate view of British feelings in general towards both of the monstrous tyrannies.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by Bankotsu

From 1938 on Chamberlain was already thinking of going to war against Hitler, if necessary:


The above statement also seems to be wrong.

According to Carroll Quigley's analysis:

There is no evidence whatever that the Chamberlain government intended to fight over Czechoslovakia unless this was the only alternative to falling from office. 
Even at the height of the crisis, when all ways out without war seemed closed (27 September), Chamberlain showed what he thought of the case by telling the British people over the BBC that the issue was “a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing.”

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html


Chamberlain's speech on 27 Sep 1938 to british public:

...However much we may sympathise with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbour, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve the whole British Empire in war simply on her account. If we have to fight it must be on larger issues than that...

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/%7Epv/munich/czdoc09.html
 
Can you really not see the difference between considering possibilities and adopting a  policy? In any case the point was not that he considered going to war over Czechoslovakia, but going to war eventually. The British rearmament program began in 1935, around the time Hitler occupied the Rhineland. In 1937 Chamberlain (then Chancellor of the Exchequer) raised profits taxes on industry to further rearmament, calling the tax the 'National Defence Contribution', which is pretty plain talk.
 
Remember Britain had suffered badly from the Depression. But the government started its 'rationalisation programme', buying up old factories and mines, and building new ones in their place - one of the things that gave Britain a big boost in preparing for the war.
 
In 1938 five new battleships were building for the Royal Navy, part of the rearmament scheme. From 1918 to 1938 only two had been built. The five new ones weren't laid down because Chamberlain had no idea of fighting a war: they were laid down in preparation for it.
 
Chamberlain's  appeasement bought Britain valuable time that it needed to catch up, but it's childish to think he wasn't already considering the necessity of war (and ignorant of the facts to claim he wasn't doing that).
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