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pekau
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Topic: Was it a good strategy to push Hitler eastwards? Posted: 15-May-2008 at 19:29 |
Originally posted by deadkenny
Without getting too far into the debate over the extent to which 'pushing' Hitler east was acutally British foreign policy under Baldwin, the fact is that there is a problem which is quite evident in the map you've posted. That is, prior to the war, Germany and the Soviet Union did not share a common border. Practically speaking, Germany would have needed to go through Poland. Needless to say, the Poles were rather sensitive about this prospective, even being as anti-Soviet as they were. In fact, when it came down to it, British foreign policy was actually to try to avoid a war at all. After Germany violated the Munich agreement by occupying 'the rest' of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, Chamberlain offered 'guarantees' to various small states, including Poland. So that policy itself tended to negate the possibility of 'pushing' Germany east. At least not without involving Britain herself in a war against Germany. In spite of later Soviet attempts to 'blame' the west for the pact the Soviets signed with Nazi Germany ('blame' which took the form, in part, of accusing the west of planning to do what the Soviets themselve in fact did do, which was to 'turn' Germany in the 'other' direction) the fact is that 'pushing' the Germans east was not British policy under Chamberlain. In fact Chamberlain's policy was to try to avoid war entirely by addressing specific issues with direct negotiation with and concessions to Germany (i.e. appeasement), while 'freezing' the Soviets out of the negotiations. I'm not suggesting that it was the best strategy, or an effective strategy (self-defeating to some extent in fact). However, the later guarantee to Poland makes it clear that British policy was certainly not to 'push' Hitler east. If anything, it was Hitler who wanted to go east, but he first had to deal with that fact that Britain and France refused to allow him a 'free hand' in central and eastern Europe. |
Indeed, Britain desparately tried to make "balance of power" concept intact in European continent. And it is also true that Hitler was more leaning into Eastern expansion rather than to west. (Hitler tried to forge alliance with Britain, and he himself admired British Empire.) Hitler didn't really hate French (Except French resistance... but that's different topic here). Lebensraum was his grand and detail plan of how to takeover Eastern Europe. (Maybe his Austrian blood has some connection to this? Anyone know the answer?) Hitler's armies occupied Western Europe, but no huge Nazi influence affected Western Europe. Other than hunting down non-Aryan race and collecting supplies for war effort, the governments in Western Europe remained intact. (ex. Hitler didn't really care whether Spain was part of his regime or not, as long as he was his ally) Generalplan Ost was part of Hitler's meticulous planning of what to do once these regions are conquered.
Clearly, it should be agreed that Hitler prioritized East. Why, I can't really say...
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deadkenny
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 19:11 |
Without getting too far into the debate over the extent to which 'pushing' Hitler east was acutally British foreign policy under Baldwin, the fact is that there is a problem which is quite evident in the map you've posted. That is, prior to the war, Germany and the Soviet Union did not share a common border. Practically speaking, Germany would have needed to go through Poland. Needless to say, the Poles were rather sensitive about this prospective, even being as anti-Soviet as they were. In fact, when it came down to it, British foreign policy was actually to try to avoid a war at all. After Germany violated the Munich agreement by occupying 'the rest' of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, Chamberlain offered 'guarantees' to various small states, including Poland. So that policy itself tended to negate the possibility of 'pushing' Germany east. At least not without involving Britain herself in a war against Germany. In spite of later Soviet attempts to 'blame' the west for the pact the Soviets signed with Nazi Germany ('blame' which took the form, in part, of accusing the west of planning to do what the Soviets themselve in fact did do, which was to 'turn' Germany in the 'other' direction) the fact is that 'pushing' the Germans east was not British policy under Chamberlain. In fact Chamberlain's policy was to try to avoid war entirely by addressing specific issues with direct negotiation with and concessions to Germany (i.e. appeasement), while 'freezing' the Soviets out of the negotiations. I'm not suggesting that it was the best strategy, or an effective strategy (self-defeating to some extent in fact). However, the later guarantee to Poland makes it clear that British policy was certainly not to 'push' Hitler east. If anything, it was Hitler who wanted to go east, but he first had to deal with that fact that Britain and France refused to allow him a 'free hand' in central and eastern Europe.
Edited by deadkenny - 15-May-2008 at 19:12
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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Guests
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 16:09 |
The British considered war between the two likely and not disadvantagous to UK's interests.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 16:00 |
Originally posted by Bankotsu
[quote]
The decision to push Germany east to attack USSR was made in 1936 by the British conservative government. These are all facts.
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No such facts but has been theorised before without any real evidence
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pekau
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 15:43 |
Just like to add that Britain had little reason to support the losing side. USSR had huge advantage over Hitler's collapsing nation with their numerical advantage. Their troops and armour units were getting better equipment thanks to improvement of mass production, and their soldiers were much more experienced in contrast of freshly recruited soldiers. (Much of experienced officers and soldiers were not in service or killed)
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pekau
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 15:40 |
Nothing to worry about, Bankotsu. We had worse in many dark times... and this kind of question isn't offensive from my prospective... it's just pure military strategy questions.
Was it good? I personally don't think it would have been a great choice in the long-term for Britain. British economy was devastated by the war, and they needed to restabilize their economy by making wrecked European economy stable again ASAP. And let's not also forget that Hitler lied to Britain straight in the face numerous times... so why would Britain dare to trust Hitler again? Public opinion against Hitler and his "evil" regime was so strong in Britain, especially after German barrages in London and other coastal regions of UK. Churchill will lose his support steadily gained from the momentum of war.
And it's not just Britain. What would Holland, Belgium, France and other nations/resistance movement think if Germans are so easily forgiven against the "evil" USSR? I am pretty sure that France will never buy into truce with Hitler's Germany, and the moral of Allies will collapse.
Oh, and let's not forget that USA was heavily supporting USSR at that time. USA thought they need all the support they could get from USSR to defeat Germans and Japanese... so imagine the diplomatic disaster when Britain requests to switch side by supporting Hitler against USSR.
Note: My arguement can be proven wrong. I didn't even think straight (Easily observed by my disorganized arguments)
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Bankotsu
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 14:43 |
Just watch out for some of the more medieval characters round here who will gang up on you pretty soon... |
Why should they gang up on me? Britain pushing Hitler eastwards to destroy Soviet Union is nothing new. Then in July 1936 the Spanish civil war began. Tory ideological dread was brought to a fine edge. The Spanish civil war could lead to a European conflict between ideological blocs; and war could provoke the spread of communist revolution or Soviet influence. It was better, a lot of Tories thought, to turn Germany eastward against the USSR. "Let gallant little Germany glut her fill of reds in the East...," suggested one Tory M.P. (Henry Channon, September 1936). Even the British prime minister, Stanley Baldwin was attracted by the idea.
http://gozips.uakron.edu/%7Emcarley/COLDWAR.html
If last week's news had no other effect, it certainly pepped up diplomatic
gossip. Around the embassies went the story about Yang Chieh, Chinese
Ambassador to Moscow: The day before the German-Russian pact was
announced, Yang Chieh called on Russian Premier Viacheslav Molotov and
asked what was up.
Said he with Oriental suavity, he had heard rumors of a
German-Russian plan to dismember Poland. . . . Thunderstruck, Premier Molotov
gasped, drew back, while the veins of his forehead stood out in his apoplectic
fury: this, he reminded his visitor, was the Soviet of Socialist Republics, the
fatherland of the toiling masses, the vanguard of the antifascist struggle; that
any ambassador could believe such a slander of the
Socialist State made him, Molotov, wonder if he was the proper
ambassador to be accredited to it. The Chinese Ambassador left, to read
in Pravda the next day the laconic notice that the agreement had been
made. Molotov hadn't been told. Premier Molotov, whose name in Russian means Hammer (Stalin means
Steel), whose pretty wife Paulina is Commissar of Fisheries and is very
close to Stalin, may well have been taken by surprise. If so, his
astonishment last week must have mounted hourly. No sooner had the
German-Russian pact been hailed as thwarting the foul design of British
Tories to direct German expansion to the East than the German Army did
what (in the Russian view) Tories had failed to accomplish—i.e.,
directed German expansion to the East... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,761966-1,00.html
The decision to push Germany east to attack USSR was made in 1936 by the British conservative government. These are all facts.
Edited by Bankotsu - 15-May-2008 at 15:03
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Parnell
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 14:12 |
Also I'm skeptical that that was a plan from the British. I think it was more of a case of 'if theres going to be war, better be against the Soviets than against us', most likely working on the principle that a conflict would leave both weaker after it.
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Parnell
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 14:10 |
Watch out newcomer. Even suggesting the pre WWII narrative was any different around here will probably lead to accusations of supporting genocide and eating babies. Just watch out for some of the more medieval characters round here who will gang up on you pretty soon...
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Bankotsu
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Posted: 15-May-2008 at 10:28 |
British Prime Minister Stanley Baldwin wanted to push Nazi Germany eastwards to destroy the Soviet Union, was this a good strategy? Two weeks after Munich Baldwin said in a conversation with Lord
Hinchingbrooke: "Can't we turn Hitler East? Napoleon broke himself
against the Russians. Hitler might do the same".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Baldwin#Later_life
Edited by Bankotsu - 15-May-2008 at 10:29
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