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Was it a good strategy to push Hitler eastwards?

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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was it a good strategy to push Hitler eastwards?
    Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 19:17
Originally posted by Bankotsu



Originally posted by gcle2003



The 'Milner group' and all the associated stuff about the Round Table and secret plans for world domination by the Anglo-Saxons are simply rubbish even as conspiracy theories go.

What about neo-con group?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projhttp://www.amazon.com/Bushhttp://www.amazon.com/Imper


I seem to think that gcle2003, could reply in a manner that might well curl you hair?

That is if he/she ever shows themselves here again?
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 19:14
I wrote above;

"There was of course another thing, that is Hitler, like most Germans despised Russia and those stupid peasants who lived there! (note the previous statement is not my opinion but merely my opinion of the typical German opinion!) Got it?

Of course I could be wrong?"

Of course it seems I forgot some words! Typical of a 63 year old brain!

I should have finished my sentence! So the above should have read;

""There was of course another thing, that is Hitler, like most Germans, despised Russia and those stupid peasants who lived there! (note the previous statement is not my opinion but merely my opinion of the typical German opinion!) Thus they deserved leadership! Got it? "

It was mostly attitude and superiority beliefs that ruled those days!
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2010 at 18:30
Boy, the above conversation ended weirdly? But, I have not yet read all of the posts!

Perhaps there is something I can get from it?

Oh! Here is an old quote I can speak about.

"Clearly, it should be agreed that Hitler prioritized East. Why, I can't really say... "

Since the person who made the above remark is gone, I will not mention his/her name, but the words make me want to remark.

East was three things to Hitler; 1. Vast Fields of grain! 2. Vast Fields of OIL! 3. A Vast Field of Slaves (Slavs!)

There was of course another thing, that is Hitler, like most Germans despised Russia and those stupid peasants who lived there! (note the previous statement is not my opinion but merely my opinion of the typical German opinion!) Got it?

Of course I could be wrong?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 16-Mar-2010 at 19:57
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 10:35
What about the so-called neo-con group ?
 
Your links seem to really relate to President Bush and his alleged ideas
 
BTW The Round Table properly speaking is a charitable organisation and certainly not political
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 05:27
Originally posted by gcle2003

The 'Milner group' and all the associated stuff about the Round Table and secret plans for world domination by the Anglo-Saxons are simply rubbish even as conspiracy theories go.


What about neo-con group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proj

http://www.amazon.com/Bush
http://www.amazon.com/Imper


Edited by Bankotsu - 19-Jul-2008 at 05:27
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 19:56
This is getting extremely boring and repetitive, so it's my last word. That's not 'another link', it's the same old source.
 
The 'Milner group' and all the associated stuff about the Round Table and secret plans for world domination by the Anglo-Saxons are simply rubbish even as conspiracy theories go.
 
The 'Cliveden set' stuff is almost as bad tabloid nonsense, certainly if it's supposed to have anything to do with government policy. The only place they were the 'most-talked-about' political clique' was in the society papers and the tabloids, since they were rich, and, like Lindbergh, celebrities. The Times was not anything like as powerful a political voice as the Daily Express and the Daily Herald (the time of the Daily Mirror was yet to come) and even the radical and then highly successful Picture Post, all of them anti-appeasement to the point of jingoism.
 
The Daily Mail is interesting because it DID support appeasement but - to repeat the point continually emphasised by deadkenny - it changed its policy after March 1939 and demanded that Chamberlain prepare to go to war against Germany. It wasn't however as powerful at the time as the Express and the Herald.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 15:33
deadkenny here is another link if you are interested:


...Those who are familiar with the activities of the “Cliveden Set” in the 1930s have generally felt that the appeasement policy associated with that group was a manifestation of the period after 1934 only.  This is quite mistaken.  The Milner Group, which was the reality behind the phantom-like Cliveden Set, began their program of appeasement and revision of the settlement as early as 1919.  Why did they do this? To answer this question...

http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/quigley/anglo_12.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroll_Quigley

The most-talked-of political clique in 1938 was the "Cliveden Set," the name applied to a group of eminent Britons who frequented Cliveden, Buckinghamshire estate of Lord & Lady Astor. Occasional visitors to Cliveden are Prime Minister & Mrs. Neville Chamberlain; Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England; Geoffrey Dawson,' editor of the potent London Times, which is owned by Lady Astor's brother-in-law. Major John Jacob Astor; and Colonel & Mrs. Charles Augustus Lindbergh...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,771279,00.html
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by bankotsu

  
....This plan would work only if Germany and the Soviet Union could be brought into contact with each other by abandoning to Germany Austria, Czechoslovakia, and the Polish Corridor. This became the aim of both the anti-Bolsheviks and the three-bloc people from the early part of 1937 to the end of 1939 (or even early 1940)....
 
Surprizingly I don't actually disagree with everything in that quote.  However, it is of course slanted towards a 'communist' perspective of the west.  One also needs to appreciate the context.  Much of what is said with respect to the views of various groups seems to imply some desire or willingness to accept massive German conquest and expansion, as long as directed 'eastward'.  That was not the context within which those views were expressed.  The Soviet Union was viewed as the bigger political threat.  The idea was to contain the Soviet Union and prevent the spread of communism, not to facilitate Germany becoming a continental 'superpower'  by the conquest of eastern Europe.  It seems pathetically wrong with hindisight, but that was the view at the time.  As another part of your quote mentions, the British viewed Versailles as having gone 'too far' in disarming Germany and 'crippling' them with reparations (it is in retrospect questionable as to just how 'crippling' those reparations really were).  So in that context, one can see that the British view was that Germany was too weak and France had been left too dominant in western Europe and the Soviet Union was a threat in eastern Europe and thus this led to a willingness (excessive willingness in hindsight) to make concessions to Germany, in order to 'balance' France and 'contain' the Soviet Union. 
 
As to the specific piece that I quoted above, that is simply incorrect.  None of Austria, Czechoslovakia nor Danzig / the corridor, individually or in combination, provide Germany with a common border with the Soviet Union.   From a practical perspective, the bulk of Polish territory was necessary for that (the Baltic States and Rumania to a lessor extent, in combination).  
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 10:43
Sarmat12?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 10:35
Bankotsu it probably is meaningful that you so far haven't got anyone to agree with you.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2008 at 05:46
Originally posted by deadkenny

 Beyond simply the fact that people got to vote, it meant that there were various people with various points of view who had some power or influence.  So, while there were no doubt the 'arch-appeasers' who were willing to cave in to just about anything Germany demanded, there were also others who vehemently disagreed.


What you said above is true deadkenny.

For more detailed analysis of british policy see:


Any analysis of the motivations of Britain in 1938-1939 is bound to be difficult because different people had different motives, motives changed in the course of time, the motives of the government were clearly not the same as the motives of the people, and in no country has secrecy and anonymity been carried so far or been so well preserved as in Britain. In general, motives become vaguer and less secret as we move our attention from the innermost circles of the government outward.

As if we were looking at the layers of an onion, we may discern four points of view:
(1) the anti-Bolsheviks at the center,
(2) the "three-bloc-world" supporters close to the center,
(3) the supporters of "appeasement," and
(4) the "peace at any price" group in a peripheral position.

The "anti-Bolsheviks," who were also anti-French, were extremely important from 1919 to 1926, but then decreased to little more than a lunatic fringe, rising again in numbers and influence after 1934 to dominate the real policy of the government in 1939. In the earlier period the chief figures in this group were Lord Curzon, Lord D'Abernon, and General Smuts. They did what they could to destroy reparations, permit German rearmament, and tear down what they called "French militarism."

     This point of view was supported by the second group, which was known in those days as the Round Table Group, and came later to be called, somewhat inaccurately, the Cliveden Set, after the country estate of Lord and Lady Astor.

It included Lord Milner, Leopold Amery, and Edward Grigg (Lord Altrincham), as well as Lord Lothian, Smuts, Lord Astor, Lord Brand (brother-in-law of Lady Astor and managing director of Lazard Brothers, the international bankers), Lionel Curtis, Geoffrey Dawson (editor of The Times), and their associates. This group wielded great influence because it controlled the Rhodes Trust, the Beit Trust, The Times of London, The Observer, the influential and highly anonymous quarterly review known as The Round Table (founded in 1910 with money supplied by Sir Abe Bailey and the Rhodes Trust, and with Lothian as editor), and it dominated the Royal Institute of International Affairs, called "Chatham House" (of which Sir Abe Bailey and the Astors were the chief financial supporters, while Lionel Curtis was the actual founder), the Carnegie United Kingdom Trust, and All Souls College, Oxford.

This Round Table Group formed the core of the three-bloc-world supporters, and differed from the anti-Bolsheviks like D'Abernon in that they sought to contain the Soviet Union between a German-dominated Europe and an English-speaking bloc rather than to destroy it as the anti-Bolsheviks wanted. Relationships between the two groups were very close and friendly, and some people, like Smuts, were in both.

     The anti-Bolsheviks, including D'Abernon, Smuts, Sir John Simon, and H. A. L. Fisher (Warden of All Souls College), were willing to go to any extreme to tear down France and build up Germany.

Their point of view can be found in many places, and most emphatically in a letter of August I l, 1920, from D'Abernon to Sir Maurice (later Lord) Hankey, a prot้g้ of Lord Esher who wielded great influence in the inter-war period as secretary to the Cabinet and secretary to almost every international conference on reparations from Genoa (1922) to Lausanne (1932).

D'Abernon advocated a secret alliance of Britain "with the German military leaders in cooperating against the Soviet." As ambassador of Great Britain in Berlin in 1920-1926, D'Abernon carried on this policy and blocked all efforts by the Disarmament Commission to disarm, or even inspect, Germany (according to Brigadier J. H. Morgan of the commission).

     The point of view of this group was presented by General Smuts in a speech of October 23, 1923 (made after luncheon with H. A. L. Fisher). From these two groups came the Dawes Plan and the Locarno pacts. It was Smuts, according to Stresemann, who first suggested the Locarno policy, and it was D'Abernon who became its chief supporter. H. A. L. Fisher and John Simon in the House of Commons, and Lothian, Dawson, and their friends on The Round Table and on The Times prepared the ground among the British governing class for both the Dawes Plan and Locarno as early as 1923 (The Round Table for March 1923; the speeches of Fisher and Simon in the House of Commons on February 19, 1923, Fisher's speech of March 6th and Simon's speech of March 13th in the same place, The Round Table for June 1923; and Smuts's speech of October 23rd).

     The more moderate Round Table group, including Lionel Curtis, Leopold Amery (who was the shadow of Lord Milner), Lord Lothian, Lord Brand, and Lord Astor, sought to weaken the League of Nations and destroy all possibility of collective security in order to strengthen Germany in respect to both France and the Soviet Union, and above all to free Britain from Europe in order to build up an "Atlantic bloc" of Great Britain, the British Dominions, and the United States.

They prepared the way for this "Union" through the Rhodes Scholarship organization (of which Lord Milner was the head in 1905-1925 and Lord Lothian was secretary in 1925-1940), through the Round Table groups (which had been set up in the United States, India, and the British Dominions in T 910- 1917), through the Chatham House organization, which set up Royal Institutes of International Affairs in all the dominions and a Council on Foreign Relations in New York, as well as through "Unofficial Commonwealth Relations Conferences" held irregularly, and the Institutes of Pacific Relations set up in various countries as autonomous branches of the Royal Institutes of International Affairs.

This influential group sought to change the League of Nations from an instrument of collective security to an international conference center for "nonpolitical" matters like drug control or international postal services, to rebuild Germany as a buffer against the Soviet Union and a counterpoise to France, and to build up an Atlantic bloc of Britain, the Dominions, the United States, and, if possible, the Scandinavian countries.

     One of the effusions of this group was the project called Union Now, and later Union Now with Great Britain, propagated in the United States in 1938-1945 by Clarence Streit on behalf of Lord Lothian and the Rhodes Trust. Ultimately, the inner circle of this group arrived at the idea of the "three-bloc world."

It was believed that this system could force Germany to keep the peace (after it absorbed Europe) because it would be squeezed between the Atlantic bloc and the Soviet Union, while the Soviet Union could be forced to keep the peace because it would be squeezed between Japan and Germany.

This plan would work only if Germany and the Soviet Union could be brought into contact with each other by abandoning to Germany Austria, Czechoslovakia, and the Polish Corridor. This became the aim of both the anti-Bolsheviks and the three-bloc people from the early part of 1937 to the end of 1939 (or even early 1940).

These two cooperated and dominated the government in that period. They split in the period 1939-1940, with the "three-bloc" people, like Amery, Lord Halifax, and Lord Lothian, becoming increasingly anti-German, while the anti-Bolshevik crowd, like Chamberlain, Horace Wilson, and John Simon, tried to adopt a policy based on a declared but unfought war against Germany combined with an undeclared fighting war against the Soviet Union. The split between these two groups appeared openly in public and led to Chamberlain's fall from office when Amery cried to Chamberlain, across the floor of the House of Commons, on May 10, 1940, "In the name of God, go!"

     Outside these two groups, and much more numerous (but much more remote from the real instruments of government), were the appeasers and the "peace at any price" people. These were both used by the two inner groups to command public support for their quite different policies. Of the two the appeasers were much more important than the "peace at any price" people.

The appeasers swallowed the steady propaganda (much of it emanating from Chatman House, The Times, the Round Table groups, or Rhodes circles) that the Germans had been deceived and brutally treated in 1919. For example, it was under pressure from seven persons, including General Smuts and H. A. L. Fisher, as well as Lord Milner himself, that Lloyd George made his belated demand on June 2, 1919, that the German reparations be reduced and the Rhineland occupation be cut from fifteen years to two.

The memorandum from which Lloyd George read these demands was apparently drawn up by Philip Kerr (Lord Lothian), while the minutes of the Council of Four, from which we get the record of those demands, were taken down by Sir Maurice Hankey (as secretary to the Supreme Council, a position obtained through Lord Esher).

It was Kerr (Lothian) who served as British member of the Committee of Five which drew up the answer to the Germans' protest of May, 1 919. General Smuts was still refusing to sign the treaty because it was too severe as late as June 2 3, 1919.

     As a result of these attacks and a barrage of similar attacks on the treaty which continued year after year, British public opinion acquired a guilty conscience about the Treaty of Versailles, and was quite unprepared to take any steps to enforce it by 1930. On this feeling, which owed so much to the British idea of sportsmanlike conduct toward a beaten opponent, was built the movement for appeasement.

This movement had two basic assumptions: (a) that reparation must be made for Britain's treatment of Germany in 1919 and (b) that if Germany's most obvious demands, such as arms equality, remilitarization of the Rhineland, and perhaps union with Austria, were met, Germany would become satisfied and peaceful.

The trouble with this argument was that once Germany reached this point, it would be very difficult to prevent Germany from going further (such as taking the Sudetenland and the Polish Corridor).

Accordingly, many of the appeasers, when this point was reached in March 1938 went over to the anti-Bolshevik or "three-bloc" point of view, while some even went into the "peace at any price" group.

It is likely that Chamberlain, Sir John Simon, and Sir Samuel Hoare went by this road from appeasement to anti-Bolshevism. At any rate, few influential people were still in the appeasement group by 1939 in the sense that they believed that Germany could ever be satisfied. Once this was realized, it seemed to many that the only solution was to bring Germany into contact with, or even collision with, the Soviet Union.

     The "peace at any price" people were both few and lacking in influence in Britain, while the contrary, as we shall see, was true in France. However, in the period August 1935 to March 1939 and especially in September 1938, the government built upon the fears of this group by steadily exaggerating Germany's armed might and belittling their own, by calculated indiscretions (like the statement in September 1938 that there were no real antiaircraft defenses in London), by constant hammering at the danger of an overwhelming air attack without warning, by building ostentatious and quite useless air-raid trenches in the streets and parks of London, and by insisting through daily warnings that everyone must be fitted with a gas mask immediately (although the danger of a gas attack was nil).

     In this way, the government put London into a panic in 1938 for the first time since 1804 or even 1678. And by this panic, Chamberlain was able to get the British people to accept the destruction of Czechoslovakia, wrapping it up in a piece of paper, marked "peace in our time," which he obtained from Hitler, as he confided to that ruthless dictator, "for British public opinion."

Once this panic passed, Chamberlain found it impossible to get the British public to follow his program, although he himself never wavered, even in 1940. He worked on the appeasement and the "peace at any price" groups throughout 1939, but their numbers dwindled rapidly, and since he could not openly appeal for support on either the anti-Bolshevik or the "three-bloc" basis, he had to adopt the dangerous expedient of pretending to resist (in order to satisfy the British public) while really continuing to make every possible concession to Hitler which would bring Germany to a common frontier with the Soviet Union, all the while putting every pressure on Poland to negotiate and on Germany to refrain from using force in order to gain time to wear Poland down and in order to avoid the necessity of backing up by action his pretense of resistance to Germany. This policy went completely astray in the period from August 1939 to April 1940.

Chamberlain's motives were not bad ones; he wanted peace so that he could devote Britain's "limited resources" to social welfare; but he was narrow and totally ignorant of the realities of power, convinced that international politics could be conducted in terms of secret deals, as business was, and he was quite ruthless in carrying out his aims, especially in his readiness to sacrifice non-English persons, who, in his eyes, did not count...

http://real-world-news.org/bk-quigley/12.html#42


...there were also others who vehemently disagreed.


...In February 1938, Lord Lothian, “leader” of the Group, spoke in the House of Lords in support of appeasement. This extraordinary speech was delivered in defense of the retiring of Sir Robert Vansittart.

Sir Robert, as Permanent Under Secretary in the Foreign Office from 1930 to 1938, was a constant thorn in the side of the appeasers. The opening of the third stage of appeasement at the end of 1937 made it necessary to get rid of him and his objections to their policy.

Accordingly, he was “promoted” to the newly created post of Chief Diplomatic Adviser, and the Under Secretaryship was given to Sir Alexander Cadogan of the Cecil Bloc.

This action led to a debate in February 1938.  Lord Lothian intervened to insist that Sir Robert’s new role would not be parallel to that of the new Under Secretary but was restricted to advising only on “matters specifically referred to him by the Secretary of State, and he is no longer responsible for the day to day work of the Office.”...

http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html





Edited by Bankotsu - 18-Jul-2008 at 10:57
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 21:04
I guess we'll only know if they bother to post something.  Even if its just their 'personal opinion'. 
 
One point that I believe it is important to keep in mind was that unlike Germany and the Soviet Union at the time, Britain was a 'democracy'.  Beyond simply the fact that people got to vote, it meant that there were various people with various points of view who had some power or influence.  So, while there were no doubt the 'arch-appeasers' who were willing to cave in to just about anything Germany demanded, there were also others who vehemently disagreed.  Basically there were 3 groups, the 'appeasers', the 'hawks' (e.g. Churchill) and then those somewhere inbetween.  This is important because while the 'hawks' strongly opposed Munich, the appeasers 'sold' the agreement to those in the middle as a possibility of peace but also as 'buying time' for Britain to re-arm, and in particular to get her air defenses in shape.  Once Germany occupied Moravia and Bohemia in March 1939, violating the Munich agreement, British policy changed.  What primarily changed was that those in 'the middle', would no longer 'buy' appeasement.  So while there may be some statements to the effect that appeasers might still like to appease over Poland, the fact of the matter is that no British government could have stayed in office at that time while trying to carry out another Munich, after Germany had just blantantly violated that agreement.   
 
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 14:42
Ah, yes, Peteratwar was also opposed to the view that Britain turned Germany eastwards to destroy Soviet Union.

What about other forummers?


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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 13:00
Asking for others' opinions - fine (btw I believe you missed Peteratwar as one of those who rejects your conspiracy theory).  However, the following oft repeated yamaguchy sourced quote I will respond to:
 
Originally posted by Bankotsu

...

In order to carry out this plan of allowing Germany to drive eastward against Russia, it was necessary to do three things:

(1) to liquidate all the countries standing between Germany and Russia; 

(2) to prevent France from honoring her alliances with these countries;  and

(3) to hoodwink the English people into accepting this as a necessary, indeed, the only solution to the international problem. 

The Chamberlain group were so successful in all three of these things that they came within an ace of succeeding, and failed only because of the obstinacy of the Poles, the unseemly haste of Hitler, and the fact that at the eleventh hour the Milner Group realized the implications of their policy and tried to reverse it.

 
The countries that could potentially have provided Germany with a common border with the Soviet Union (some singly, others in combination) were Poland, Rumania and the Baltic States.  When the Germans attacked the first of that group (i.e. Poland) Britain declared war on Germany and 'pushed' the French to do likewise (reference previous comments about the French DoW coming 6 hours after the British, and with considerable British 'prompting').  So much for points (1) and (2).  Arguably point (3) has some validity for the period of 'appeasement', up to March 1939.  After Germany blatantly violated the Munich agreement, British policy changed and Chamberlain was arguing in favour of the necessity of 'deterring'  further Germany aggression by offering unilateral British 'guarantees' to potentially threatened states, Poland in particular.  
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2008 at 05:02
What are the thoughts of forummers on the view of Britain turning Germany eastwards to destroy Soviet Union?

I am curious as not many people have participated on this thread. The main opponents of this view in this thread so far are deadkenny and gcle2003.

To some people, I believe that this interpretation of history is new to you. To others, this is taught in school textbooks and common knowledge.

What are the thoughts of forummers to this view of Britain turning Germany eastwards to destroy Soviet Union?


And by this date, certain members of the Milner Group and of the British Conservative government had reached the fantastic idea that they could kill two birds with one stone by setting Germany and Russia against one another in Eastern Europe.

In this way they felt that the two enemies would stalemate one another, or that Germany would become satisfied with the oil of Rumania and the wheat of the Ukraine. 

It never occurred to anyone in a responsible position that Germany and Russia might make common cause, even temporarily, against the West. Even less did it occur to them that Russia might beat Germany and thus open all Central Europe to Bolshevism.

In order to carry out this plan of allowing Germany to drive eastward against Russia, it was necessary to do three things:

(1) to liquidate all the countries standing between Germany and Russia; 

(2) to prevent France from honoring her alliances with these countries;  and

(3) to hoodwink the English people into accepting this as a necessary, indeed, the only solution to the international problem. 

The Chamberlain group were so successful in all three of these things that they came within an ace of succeeding, and failed only because of the obstinacy of the Poles, the unseemly haste of Hitler, and the fact that at the eleventh hour the Milner Group realized the implications of their policy and tried to reverse it.


http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html


Edited by Bankotsu - 17-Jul-2008 at 10:28
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 15:35
Originally posted by Bankotsu

Originally posted by deadkenny

Furthermore, if Britain didn't really want to fight, and still wanted the Germans to expand eastward and attack the Soviet Union, why didn't they end the war, as Hitler offered, after Poland was conquered and divided up by the Nazi's and their Soviet allies?


Would british public accept it?
 
The majority of Parliament would not accept ending the war with Germany occupying Poland.  Nor would most of cabinet accept it.  Again, this just points to the fact that British policy was not, and nor could it become, one of 'pushing Germany eastward into a war with the Soviet Union'.  Cabinet, Parliament and the public were not ready to accept further German aggression without action.  Once war was declared, it had to be followed through until the purpose for starting the war had been achieved, i.e. Germany evacuating Polish territory.  Chamberlain could either implement that policy, or be replaced by someone else who would.  There was no possiblity at that point of a policy of 'pushing Germany eastward' taking place, as that would have been directly contradictory to what British policy actually was, and the actions Britain actually took historically.  THAT is the entire point.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 10:20
Originally posted by Bankotsu

It was also not Chamberlain's plan to fight Germany.

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/reading/h
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/reading/

Originally posted by deadkenny

Britain didn't have an army on the continent, so any land warfare would depend entirely upon the French.


Why no bombing?


Because given the disparity in relative strengths, any British bombing offensive would have been even more a disaster than the German attacks on Britain the following year..

Not only were German fighters as good as or better than British ones, but bombers had much further to fly to attack Germany from Britain than German bombers had to fly to attack Britain.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 05:09
Originally posted by Peteratwar

When I read the article I would say yes very definitely


Why?

Is there evidence?
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 05:08
Originally posted by deadkenny

Furthermore, if Britain didn't really want to fight, and still wanted the Germans to expand eastward and attack the Soviet Union, why didn't they end the war, as Hitler offered, after Poland was conquered and divided up by the Nazi's and their Soviet allies?


Would british public accept it?
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  Quote deadkenny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 17:20
Originally posted by Bankotsu


Why no bombing?
 
I've already addressed this issue previously as well.  Britain was just starting to get their air defenses in place.  France basically had none.  The concern was that the Luftwaffe had the advantage, and if the Allies started bombing German cities, the Allies would get hit harder in retaliation.  Furthermore, the bombers available to Britain were not very good.  Proper heavy bombers were not available until late 1940 (Halifaxes) and 1942 (Lancasters).  Even if the British had bombed, you might then question why no poison gas was used?  Just because a particular weapon wasn't used doesn't prove that the British would not fight, just that they weren't ready to do anything effective using those particular weapons.  As I pointed out to Sarmat previously, the 'shooting war' started at sea immediately.  I suggest you read up on it.  Furthermore, if Britain didn't really want to fight, and still wanted the Germans to expand eastward and attack the Soviet Union, why didn't they end the war, as Hitler offered, after Poland was conquered and divided up by the Nazi's and their Soviet allies? 


Edited by deadkenny - 11-Jul-2008 at 17:21
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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