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Uyghur-Chinese relations
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kafkas View Drop Down
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Posts: 117 		  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Uyghur-Chinese relations
    Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 18:48
Originally posted by calvo

Originally posted by kafkas

Uighurs have always been relatively anti-Chinese compared to the other ethnic groups in the region.

The Hui are pretty much just Chinese minus the pork, so I'm not sure how they feel about them.

The Uighur community in Turkey was extremely pissed off about the Olympics being held in China.
 
Are there many Uighurs living in Turkey? When did they migrate there?


There's different estimates of the Uighur population in Turkey, from 20,000 to over 100,000. It's difficult to tell since the Turkish government just calls anyone born in Turkey a Turk, so we don't even know if these numbers only refer to Uighurs who immigrated to Turkey or include the people with Uighur heritage. Uighurs have been coming to Turkey since the 1940's before the Communists really took over, and then there was sort of another group which started coming after the Chinese relaxed their laws to allow people out the country (mainly in the 90's). Most of them currently reside in Istanbul (some are in Kayseri, Konya, and Ankara) where they are a very respected community, they're very patriotic more so than many immigrants from the other Turkish Republics. They have their own radio shows and organizations. Actually during the Turkish language reforms the Turkish Republic looked to the Uighur Turkish language for vocabulary words and it helped a lot, since they speak the original Turkish dialect and didn't have much foreign influence until relatively recently.

Uighur flag, the Gkbayrak (sky-blue flag):


Uighurs on Mount Erciyes in Turkey


Uighur bookshop:


Elihan Tore - President of the East Turkestan Second Republic



I thought these pictures were nice, they're from http://www.bootsnall.org/datw/archives/cat_29china_part_ii_xinjiang_province.shtml

Neil (American) with a big Uighur hat on:


An Uighur man in the big hat:


A Chinese man in the big hat:




Edited by kafkas - 27-Apr-2008 at 18:56
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 22:55
Uighur hats look very similar to Turkmen ones.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 22:58
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Xu Hua

In Wenyan does SOV exist?
 
I think so. When O has a lot of adjectives or it needs to be emphasized.
 
Actually, now it think that I perhaps was too fast to claim that it exists in wenyan.  I was actually thinking about the more "official" form of modern Mandarin at that time. So, wenyan might indeed not have it.
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Posts: 85 		  Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 08:24
The independence movement of East Turkistan is merely a strategy of Russia Empire and USSR to weaken China. Remember, there are far more Turkic nations in Russia than in China. In 1870s, the Tsar supported Yaqub's Yatta Shahar Khanate in Xinjiang. Yaqub was an invader from Kokand Khanate. Notice that the Tsar had annexed the vast land of Central Asia where were the home of Turkic people. In 1940s, USSR became to support the independence movement of East Turkistan. In 1960s, when the relationship between USSR and PRC became worse, USSR agitated Uighurs, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tatars to defect.
 
The independence movement is a pawn of world's big powers to weaken China.
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Posts: 846 		  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 20:19
Originally posted by Xu Hua

The independence movement of East Turkistan is merely a strategy of Russia Empire and USSR to weaken China. Remember, there are far more Turkic nations in Russia than in China. In 1870s, the Tsar supported Yaqub's Yatta Shahar Khanate in Xinjiang. Yaqub was an invader from Kokand Khanate. Notice that the Tsar had annexed the vast land of Central Asia where were the home of Turkic people. In 1940s, USSR became to support the independence movement of East Turkistan. In 1960s, when the relationship between USSR and PRC became worse, USSR agitated Uighurs, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tatars to defect.
 
The independence movement is a pawn of world's big powers to weaken China.
 
I see your point, but you also have to bear in mind that as far as Uyghurs are concerned, China is just another Imperialist power like Russia, Britain, or any of the empires that had dominated Central Asia.
Russia trying to weaken China is merely one imperialist power trying to muscle in on the interest of another. Subject nations like the Uyghurs, Kirgiz, and Tibetans are merely pawns in the dispute.
 
A parallel situation (although not identical) is the way in which the USA replaced Spain as the main imperial power in Latin America; and the way the French took over Ottoman interests in North Africa.
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Posts: 85 		  Quote Xu Hua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 02:52
I see your point, but you also have to bear in mind that as far as Uyghurs are concerned, China is just another Imperialist power like Russia, Britain, or any of the empires that had dominated Central Asia.
Russia trying to weaken China is merely one imperialist power trying to muscle in on the interest of another. Subject nations like the Uyghurs, Kirgiz, and Tibetans are merely pawns in the dispute.
 
A parallel situation (although not identical) is the way in which the USA replaced Spain as the main imperial power in Latin America; and the way the French took over Ottoman interests in North Africa.
[/QUOTE]
 
Well, it is quite true as you said, that China and Russia are both extraneous powers to rule Turkic people in Central Asia. After Kazak, Kirgiz, Uzbek and Turkoman got independence in 1990s, many Uighurs thought why they couldn't also get independence as theire neighbors? But I think the situation in Xinjiang is quite different from Russo-Turkistan.
 
The earliest Uighur country was Uighur Khanate (646-840) in Mongolia. It was conquered by Kirgiz in 840 and Uighur people moved to Xinjiang and west Gansu. They assimilated the local Indo-European people, and was known as "Xi Zhou Huihu" or "west territory Uighur" in Tarim Basin. This is the reason why I said that modern Uighur is a double-original nation, because a large part of them are descendant of aboriginal Indo-European already existed before ancient Uighur moved there. There had been many city-states before the 7th century, the most famous ones of them were Qiuzi, Yutian, Gaochang. And the most noticable is that Han Dynasty, West Jin Dynasty and Tang Dynasty had ruled the whole Tarim Basin, and these city-states were vassals of Chinese Dynasties. However, when China Empire was weak, its power in Tarim Basin was also weak, and the administration in Tarim Basin would bacome chaos, and Chinese power would retreat and other powers would occupy. So the fact is that China Empire ruled Tarim Basin earlier than Turkish Uighur, because Han Dynasty began to govern this region in the 1st century BC.
 
The first Uighur contry in Tarim Basin is Kara Khanate (940-1212), and in 1041 it was splitted into two parts: West Kara Khanate (1041-1212) and East Kara Khanate (1041-1211). Both parts was controlled by Kara Kitan or "Xi Liao", the successive country of Kitan Empire which was defeated by Juchens in 1125. In 1211, the eastern part was usurped by Quchulu, the refugee prince of Naiman which was conquered by Genghis Khan. In the next year, the western part was annexed by Khwarezm Sultanate. In the end, when Khwarezm was conquered by Genghis Khan, Tarim Basin became a part of Mongol Empire, under Chaghatai Khanate (1227-1369)'s rule. This region went into Mongol time over 400 years, until Qing dynasty annexed it in the late 17th century.
 
In the 14th century Chaghatai Khanate splitted into eastern part and western part. West Chaghatai was annexed by Timur the Lame, and East Chaghatai remained to 1514 and replaced by Yarkand Khanate, another Mongol country with Chaghtai bloodline. In 1678, it was conquered by Jungar Khanate, an Oirat Mongol country. In 1755, Jungar Khanate was annexed by Qing Dynasty, so Tarim Basin was ruled by China Empire again.
 
I think the history of Xinjiang is like the history of Thrace region, Greece. Thrace bacame a part of ancient Greece very early, although the people living there was different from Greeks. It was take over by other powers, such as Roman, Ottoman, but after all, it was reruled by Greece.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 03:42
The problem in Xinjiang really exists. Of course one can say: " Yes, it's just the creation of imperialistic Russia and blah-blah-blah." "Imperialistic Russia" has been gone for almost 20 years already. But Uighur nationalism is still strong. Foreign powers might take advantage of the situation there but they didn't create the situation itself.
 
Besides, honestly speaking if we look back, Russian empire was rather interested in Xinjiang controlled by Qing empire in the 19th century. Yakub bek had quite hostile relations with the Russian empire and Russia was rather interested in Eastern Turkestan "pacified" by Chinese, rather than a Muslim khanate there. Russia peacfully returned the territory of Ili back to China although it could easily claim it and even continue to feed Uighur animosity to Chinese after 1877. Similarly for obvious reasons USSR only welcomed when PLA took over Xinjiang in 1949.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 30-Apr-2008 at 03:56
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Posts: 63 		  Quote Forgotten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2008 at 03:54
 
 
"
I think the history of Xinjiang is like the history of Thrace region, Greece. Thrace bacame a part of ancient Greece very early, although the people living there was different from Greeks. It was take over by other powers, such as Roman, Ottoman, but after all, it was reruled by Greece "
 
This is not true, so you say because the han ruled it before the uyghurs then its a chinese land ?!!! what about the huns ? and the ancient huns ? they ruled the eastern turkistan before the hans ! and the huns are the ancestors of the uyghurs so the uyghurs are the real rulers of eastern turkistan.
 
dont say that uyghur fled from mongolia to eastern turkistan because of the kyrgyz, yes uyghur were defeated by kyrgyz and alot of them specialy the ruler family to eastern turkistan but before that happen alot of uyghurs and turks were living there, no one can believe that a whole tribe can fled to a very far place because of war !
 
chinese historians are always trying to claim alot of wrong things about uyghurs, like the today uyghurs are not a real uyghurs because they mixed with the locals of eastern turkistan and this is also is not correct, yes mixing between the two people happend but that doesnt happen to the uyghurs who lived there.
 
look at china wall and you will see the real map of china.
 
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Posts: 117 		  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2008 at 04:53
Originally posted by Xu Hua

This is the reason why I said that modern Uighur is a double-original nation, because a large part of them are descendant of aboriginal Indo-European already existed before ancient Uighur moved there.


There was no indigenous Indo-European civilization of East Turkestan.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:41
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:54

Uighurs mainly divided into 2 groups,1 is AntiChina,1 is ProChina,the proChina group are mainly the richer uighurs who got lots of Non-Uighur friends.
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Posts: 511 		  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 15:05
Anyone knows which country is supporting the East Turkestan movement to destabilise China?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism


Edited by Bankotsu - 01-Aug-2008 at 15:10
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2008 at 05:43
Turkey has nothing to do with these Uighurs,they are different from them in terms of Lineage,Uighurs in Xinjiang was already an independent ethnic group since many centuries ago,and they were mixed with the hans and mongols.Talking about the relationship between the China uighurs and Turkey turks just like comparing the Japanese/koreans with the hans
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 00:30
Originally posted by keerisahaizu

Turkey has nothing to do with these Uighurs,they are different from them in terms of Lineage,Uighurs in Xinjiang was already an independent ethnic group since many centuries ago,and they were mixed with the hans and mongols.Talking about the relationship between the China uighurs and Turkey turks just like comparing the Japanese/koreans with the hans
 
i dont know you are a turk or chinese ,but it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about!
 
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:26
Originally posted by Alp Ertunga

Originally posted by keerisahaizu

Turkey has nothing to do with these Uighurs,they are different from them in terms of Lineage,Uighurs in Xinjiang was already an independent ethnic group since many centuries ago,and they were mixed with the hans and mongols.Talking about the relationship between the China uighurs and Turkey turks just like comparing the Japanese/koreans with the hans
  
i dont know you are a turk or chinese ,but it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about! 
I think he has a point. The Turkish idea of "pan Turkinsim" leads the turks to support peoples that they are only distantly related to.  The fact that Uighur resistance to the Han Chinsese is nationalistic and not Islamic makes it easier for the secular Turks to give support. Clearly, the Uighurs are a Turkic people and they do share cultural elements with Turkey. At the same time, Chinese and Japanese are both Asian peoples and share cultural elements as well. This does not make them close relatives. 
 
I have a funny feeing that if the Uighurs were fundamentalist Muslims with Jihadist resistance groups, the Turkish government would suddenly consider them be an ethnically mixed people with only a little Turkic heritage. As such, they would not be welcomed to immigrate.  


Edited by Cryptic - 02-Sep-2008 at 03:58
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