Uyghur-Chinese relations
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24213
Printed Date: 23-Apr-2024 at 13:06
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Topic: Uyghur-Chinese relations
Posted By: calvo
Subject: Uyghur-Chinese relations
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 10:41
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Despite recent protests in Tibet stir up international sensation, the largest ethnic minority in China is actually the Uyghurs (how do you pronounce it?), a Turkic-Muslim people.
Consulting history sources, the Uyghur kingdom had developed close diplomatic and military relationships with the Chinese since the Tang Dynasty in the 7th century, as they replaced the Gokturks as the major steppe empire.
THe Chinese only managed to finally conquer them in the 18th cenutury under the Chin dynasty.
Today, the province of Sinkiang is still denominated as a "Uyghur Autonomous region", but apparently, the CHinese government has repopulated large areas with Han Chinese.
Does anyone know about how is the relation between Chinese and Uyghurs in Sinkiang?
Do Uyghurs share much solidarity with other Muslim peoples in CHina like the Hui and the Kazakhs?
After the independence of the Soviet Central Asian republics, are the Uyghurs also tempted to gain their independence?
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Replies:
Posted By: Julius Augustus
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 10:59
| they always have, I believe they tried making their own country a before as the east turkestan independence movement. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 00:51
the largest minoirty is the tai Zhuang group not the uighers.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 03:10
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Uygur is the 5th largest minority of China. Its population is nearly 8.4 million in 2000, is less than that of Zhuang, Manchus, Hui and Miao. There are two origins of Uygur: Turk and Indo-European. In early years, there are many Indo-European city countries in Tarim Basin, as ancient Greece. They were raided by Huns, and Han Dynasty defeated Huns and ruled this region. In 7th centry, Turks established Uygur Khanate in Mongolian Plateau, and then conquered Tarim Basin but lost Mongolian Plateau to Kyrkiz. In 10th century, Kara Khanate was established in Tarim Basin. In 13th century, Mongolian Period began, and Tarim Basin started to be under the rule of Chagadai Khanate until 16th century, when Ilibali was established and the capital was Ili, or Yining in modern times. In 17th century, Tarim Basim was conquered by Junger Khanate, and finally Junger Khanate was annexed by Qing Dynasty, so Mongolian Period in Xinjiang was ended.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 03:13
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In 10th century, Kara Khanate was established in Tarim Basin.
___________
Sorry, I forgot that in 12th century, Kara Khanate was conquered by Kara Kitan, which was successor of Kitan Empire or Liao Dynasty which was defeated by Juchens.
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 08:37
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How is the relationship between Uighurs and Han Chinese en Sinkiang today?
Have many Uighurs asimilated to Chinese ways, or do they still stick to their traditional ways?
How do they relate to the Hui people? Is there much solidarity?
I have the impression that one of the student leaders of Tienamen was Uighur.
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Posted By: kafkas
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 17:35
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Uighurs have always been relatively anti-Chinese compared to the other ethnic groups in the region. The Hui are pretty much just Chinese minus the pork, so I'm not sure how they feel about them. The Uighur community in Turkey was extremely pissed off about the Olympics being held in China. ------------- 
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 13:45
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Uighurs will not be assimilated to Chinese forever, because they are Caucasoid or semi-Caucasoid, who are completely different from Han. And their culture is very different from Han. China has not any plan to assimilate Uighurs. The Islamic culture remains wholly in Xinjiang.
The marriages between the 2 nations are very rare. If a Han is married to an Uighur, according to the ethnic policy, his/her will become a Uighur, and he/she will say good-bye to pork forever.
One of the student leader of the Tian'anmen Event, Wu'erkaixi, is an Uighur. But he had nothing to do with nationalism, but merely liberalism.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 13:58
| Hui is a nation with multi-origin: Arab, Turkic nations, Persia, Mongol, Han Chinese, even Malay. In history, many Chinese who converted to Islam became Hui. But from 1949, Han who converted to Islam were identified as Han Muslim, but not Hui, unless he/she was married to a Hui. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 16:16
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It's interesting that Hui dialect was recognized as a separate language in the Soviet Union (it's perhaps the only case with a so-called Sinitic language). Hui are called Dungans in Central Asia. Dungan language has an alphabet based on Cyrillic script. It's still taught in some schools in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and newspapers in Dungan are also published. ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 01:12
| Yes. In fact, Dungan is a dialect of Gansu in Qing Dynasty. |
Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 01:13
| Dungan is a dialect of Mandarin in Gansu in Qing Dynasty. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 02:36
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Yes. But in Central Asia "Dungan" became a desgination for Hui that live there. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 02:39
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http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%B9%B2%E6%97%8F - http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%B9%B2%E6%97%8F ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 06:24
| Ah, my meaning is that Dungan is Hui in Central Asia, but their language, DUNGAN, is one kind of dialect of Mandarin. As everybody known, Hui hasn't own language. They speak different dialects of Chinese. However, in many mosques in China, Arabic is taught, so many Hui can speak Arabic. In many Hui communities such as Niu Jiu street in Beijing, Arabic is used in some aspects, for example, automatic speech on bus. |
Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 06:25
| Niu Jiu street in Beijing -----------> Niu Jie street |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 06:54
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If you read my post attentively you would see that it was recognized as a separate language in the Soviet Union, not universally. But even the Chinese article from wiki said that the language of Hui in Central Asia is quite different from the rest of the Hui, mainly due to the Russian and other local influences. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 08:28
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What a complication....
So the Dungang are supposed to be Chinese Muslims (Hui) who migrated to Central Asia? Wouldn't that make their first language Han Chinese?
In ethnically mixed regions like Sinkiang, do the Hui identify themselves more with the Uighurs for their common religious practice, or more with the Chinese with their language and customs?
Having descended from diverse origins from the Middle East, Central Asia, and SE Asia, what are the origins, for example, of the Hui community in Xian and in Ningxia?
Do they have distant Turkic origins?
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 08:29
Are there many Uighurs living in Turkey? When did they migrate there?
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 08:35
I hope that being Caucasoid doesn't become an inpedement of assimilation into Chinese ethnicity. I thought that over thousands of years the Chinese have prided themselves on the basis that they have absorbed diverse foreign people of different languages and physical appereances. Supposedly, many Caucasoid peoples like the Yue-Chi, the Jie, and part of the Xienpei have dissolved into the Han population.
(or maybe I wrong, please correct me)
With regards to religion I can understand more about the barrier. The impression I get is that Han and Islamic customs are rather distinct, starting from the fact that the most consumed meat in Chinese cuisine is pork.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 15:46
Han Chinese speak many dialects. Perhaps you meant Mandarin Chinese, the official language of China. But Dungan dialect has in fact some notable differences from Mandarin. One of which is that it has only 3 tones, unlike 4 in Mandarin. Also the vocabularly is quite different with many loan words from Arabic, Farsi, Turkic languages and Russian (for Central Asian Dungans).
And also by now Central Asian "Dungans" are complitely illiterate in Chinese characters and accustomed to the use of Cyrrilic script. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 02:36
| Yes. Strictly speaking, Dungan was a language derived from a northwestern dialect of Mandarin more than 100 years ago. Since they emigrated to Russia, they hardly had any contact to Hui in China. Because Chinese changed greatly in the last century, especially borrowed a large number of words from Japanese, Dungan became very different to modern Chinese. I don't think a Chinese from Gansu Province can converse with a Dungan. |
Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 02:43
| In fact, Chinese is not a single language, but a group of languages. The most widely used one in this group is Mandarin, a language heavily influenced by Manchurian. Other languages include Wu (used in the Yantze Delta), Yue (used in Guangdong), Xiang (in Hunan), Gan (in Jiangxi), Min languages (in Fujian, and can be divided into many languages further), Hakka (in south Jiangxi and east Guangdong), etc. Each language has its own dialects. |
Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 03:03
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Mandarin is used by about 70% of Chinese now. It can be divided in these dialects:
Northeastern: in Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning and east Inner Mongolia. Representative city: Shenyang.
Beijing: in Beijing, north Hebei, middle Inner Mongolia. Representative city: Beijing.
Northern: in Hebei, Shandong. Representative city: Jinan.
Jiao-Liao: in east Shandong and south Liaoning. Representative city: Qingdao, Dalian.
Middle: in Henan and north Anhui. Representative city: Luoyang.
Jiang-Huai: in middle Anhui, north and central Jiangsu, east Hubei. Representative city: Nanjing, Hefei.
Southwestern: in Hubei, Sichuan, Chongqing, south Shaanxi, Yunnan, Guizhou. Representative city: Wuhan, Chengdu, Chongqing.
Qin-Long: in middle Shaanxi, east Gansu. Representative city: Xi'an.
Lan-Yin: in Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai. Representative city: Lanzhou, Yinchuan.
Jin: in Shanxi, north Shaanxi, west Inner Mongolia. It is sometimes thought a different language from Mandarin. Representative city: Taiyuan, Hohhot.
You can find various Mandarin dialects in Xinjiang, for Han Chinese migrants in Xinjiang are from different area. But the most used ones are Middle (most are Henan cotton farmers), Beijing (most are intellectuals from universities or institutes in Beijing) and Lan-Yin (historical migrants).
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 03:13
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Because Chinese changed greatly in the last century, especially borrowed a large number of words from Japanese, Dungan became very different to modern Chinese.
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Sorry, I mean that Chinese borrowed many words from Japanese nearly 100 years ago, so it is quite different from Dungan.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 05:23
Dear Xu Hua,
This is interesting. Can you specify more about the influence of Manchu language on Mandarin? ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:04
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There are many Manchurian words in spoken Mandarin, especially Beijing dialect. For example (number indicate the tone):
ting3 - very
shuai4 - handsome
ma3ma3hu1hu1 - careless
mo4ji - sluggish
zha4hu - bluster
ga1zhiwo1 - armpit
yang1gao4 - beg
la1ta - dirty
li4so - swift
ge4se - captious
kei1 - beat
luo1so - wordy
bie4niu - awkward
dao3teng - exchange
In pronounciation, the influence of Manchurian is very profound, too. The cacuminal consonants in Mandarin, such as ch, sh, zh, are introduced from Manchurian. The tail vowels except -n, -ng are completely lost, and a rolling-tongue decorate consonant -r is added to many words. These are very close to Manchurian pronounciation.
In gramma, Mandarin is still different from Manchurian. But the structure of many sentences in Mandarin can be converted into SOV from SVO with adding a word "ba3". SOV is the feature of Altaic languages.
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:22
| ^ interesting post! their is a lot of 'sh' or soft ' s's ' in Beijing pronunciation (much like the northern mandarin in general IIRC), is that a Manchu influence? |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:38
Is it really a Manchu influence? I thought Wenyan had a similar grammar pattern but just the word which is used in Wenyan is jiang, not ba.
So, does it mean that similar grammatical structure is absent in the Southen Chinese dialects? ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:41
'sh', 'ch', 'zh' are influences of Manchurian. These pronounciations are so unique that are only found in few languages such as Manchurian, Mongolian and Mandarin in East Asia.
Maybe 'zh' is from Mongolian. The word 'zhan' in Mandarin is from Mongolian, means 'station'. It is said that in Turkish it is pronounced as 'jam', is this right?
The words with these pronounciations become less and less with the increasing distance from Beijing, northeast China and Inner Mongolia. In south China, none languages or dialects contain these pronouciations.
Soften 'sh', 'ch', 'zh' are written as 'x', 'q', 'j'. They are not from Manchurian. They are all original Chinese pronounciations.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 07:59
Yes, 'jiang' and 'ba' are both used in Mandarin now. The latter one is more widely used. In Wenyan does SOV exist? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm wrong. Wenyan is still used in former situation in Qing Dynasty.
To my knowledge, in southern languages or dialects SOV is rarely used or absent. I think the PLA troop in the Civil War (1946-1949) is one reason why SOV penetrate into southern languages or dialects. Most of PLA soldiers are northerners.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:07
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"Mandarin" I've mentioned is indicated to "Guan Hua" (means official language) formally, but not "Pu Tong Hua". "Guan Hua" or "Mandarin" I've mentioned contains many dialects. "Pu Tong Hua" is Beijing dialect of "Guan Hua". Officially, "Pu Tong Hua" is called "Mandarin". So "Mandarin" I've mentioned is not "Mandarin" with offical meaning. |
Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:21
These are languages in Chinese language group. I prefer to use "language" but not "dialect", despite they share the same script.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 08:30
I think so. When O has a lot of adjectives or it needs to be emphasized. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:07
Hui is quite different from Uighurs, for Hui is a highly mixed-blood nation with too much Chinese bloodline in it. The appearance of Hui and Han Chinese is too close to discern. Differently, Uighur is a mere Turkic nation. In Xinjiang, most of Hui are descendants of migrants from Gansu, Ningxia and Shaanxi laterly, when they had already become mixed-blood. Because the custome of Hui is heavily influenced by Han Chinese, there is a limited psychological identification between Hui and Uighurs to each other.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:14
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:15
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:16
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:17
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 09:19
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Posted By: kafkas
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 18:48
There's different estimates of the Uighur population in Turkey, from 20,000 to over 100,000. It's difficult to tell since the Turkish government just calls anyone born in Turkey a Turk, so we don't even know if these numbers only refer to Uighurs who immigrated to Turkey or include the people with Uighur heritage. Uighurs have been coming to Turkey since the 1940's before the Communists really took over, and then there was sort of another group which started coming after the Chinese relaxed their laws to allow people out the country (mainly in the 90's). Most of them currently reside in Istanbul (some are in Kayseri, Konya, and Ankara) where they are a very respected community, they're very patriotic more so than many immigrants from the other Turkish Republics. They have their own radio shows and organizations. Actually during the Turkish language reforms the Turkish Republic looked to the Uighur Turkish language for vocabulary words and it helped a lot, since they speak the original Turkish dialect and didn't have much foreign influence until relatively recently. Uighur flag, the Gkbayrak (sky-blue flag):  Uighurs on Mount Erciyes in Turkey  Uighur bookshop:  Elihan Tore - President of the East Turkestan Second Republic  I thought these pictures were nice, they're from http://www.bootsnall.org/datw/archives/cat_29china_part_ii_xinjiang_province.shtml Neil (American) with a big Uighur hat on:  An Uighur man in the big hat:  A Chinese man in the big hat:  -------------
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 22:55
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Uighur hats look very similar to Turkmen ones. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2008 at 22:58
Actually, now it think that I perhaps was too fast to claim that it exists in wenyan. I was actually thinking about the more "official" form of modern Mandarin at that time. So, wenyan might indeed not have it. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 08:24
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The independence movement of East Turkistan is merely a strategy of Russia Empire and USSR to weaken China. Remember, there are far more Turkic nations in Russia than in China. In 1870s, the Tsar supported Yaqub's Yatta Shahar Khanate in Xinjiang. Yaqub was an invader from Kokand Khanate. Notice that the Tsar had annexed the vast land of Central Asia where were the home of Turkic people. In 1940s, USSR became to support the independence movement of East Turkistan. In 1960s, when the relationship between USSR and PRC became worse, USSR agitated Uighurs, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tatars to defect.
The independence movement is a pawn of world's big powers to weaken China.
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 29-Apr-2008 at 20:19
I see your point, but you also have to bear in mind that as far as Uyghurs are concerned, China is just another Imperialist power like Russia, Britain, or any of the empires that had dominated Central Asia.
Russia trying to weaken China is merely one imperialist power trying to muscle in on the interest of another. Subject nations like the Uyghurs, Kirgiz, and Tibetans are merely pawns in the dispute.
A parallel situation (although not identical) is the way in which the USA replaced Spain as the main imperial power in Latin America; and the way the French took over Ottoman interests in North Africa.
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Posted By: Xu Hua
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 02:52
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I see your point, but you also have to bear in mind that as far as Uyghurs are concerned, China is just another Imperialist power like Russia, Britain, or any of the empires that had dominated Central Asia.
Russia trying to weaken China is merely one imperialist power trying to muscle in on the interest of another. Subject nations like the Uyghurs, Kirgiz, and Tibetans are merely pawns in the dispute.
A parallel situation (although not identical) is the way in which the USA replaced Spain as the main imperial power in Latin America; and the way the French took over Ottoman interests in North Africa. [/QUOTE]
Well, it is quite true as you said, that China and Russia are both extraneous powers to rule Turkic people in Central Asia. After Kazak, Kirgiz, Uzbek and Turkoman got independence in 1990s, many Uighurs thought why they couldn't also get independence as theire neighbors? But I think the situation in Xinjiang is quite different from Russo-Turkistan.
The earliest Uighur country was Uighur Khanate (646-840) in Mongolia. It was conquered by Kirgiz in 840 and Uighur people moved to Xinjiang and west Gansu. They assimilated the local Indo-European people, and was known as "Xi Zhou Huihu" or "west territory Uighur" in Tarim Basin. This is the reason why I said that modern Uighur is a double-original nation, because a large part of them are descendant of aboriginal Indo-European already existed before ancient Uighur moved there. There had been many city-states before the 7th century, the most famous ones of them were Qiuzi, Yutian, Gaochang. And the most noticable is that Han Dynasty, West Jin Dynasty and Tang Dynasty had ruled the whole Tarim Basin, and these city-states were vassals of Chinese Dynasties. However, when China Empire was weak, its power in Tarim Basin was also weak, and the administration in Tarim Basin would bacome chaos, and Chinese power would retreat and other powers would occupy. So the fact is that China Empire ruled Tarim Basin earlier than Turkish Uighur, because Han Dynasty began to govern this region in the 1st century BC.
The first Uighur contry in Tarim Basin is Kara Khanate (940-1212), and in 1041 it was splitted into two parts: West Kara Khanate (1041-1212) and East Kara Khanate (1041-1211). Both parts was controlled by Kara Kitan or "Xi Liao", the successive country of Kitan Empire which was defeated by Juchens in 1125. In 1211, the eastern part was usurped by Quchulu, the refugee prince of Naiman which was conquered by Genghis Khan. In the next year, the western part was annexed by Khwarezm Sultanate. In the end, when Khwarezm was conquered by Genghis Khan, Tarim Basin became a part of Mongol Empire, under Chaghatai Khanate (1227-1369)'s rule. This region went into Mongol time over 400 years, until Qing dynasty annexed it in the late 17th century.
In the 14th century Chaghatai Khanate splitted into eastern part and western part. West Chaghatai was annexed by Timur the Lame, and East Chaghatai remained to 1514 and replaced by Yarkand Khanate, another Mongol country with Chaghtai bloodline. In 1678, it was conquered by Jungar Khanate, an Oirat Mongol country. In 1755, Jungar Khanate was annexed by Qing Dynasty, so Tarim Basin was ruled by China Empire again.
I think the history of Xinjiang is like the history of Thrace region, Greece. Thrace bacame a part of ancient Greece very early, although the people living there was different from Greeks. It was take over by other powers, such as Roman, Ottoman, but after all, it was reruled by Greece.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 03:42
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The problem in Xinjiang really exists. Of course one can say: " Yes, it's just the creation of imperialistic Russia and blah-blah-blah." "Imperialistic Russia" has been gone for almost 20 years already. But Uighur nationalism is still strong. Foreign powers might take advantage of the situation there but they didn't create the situation itself.
Besides, honestly speaking if we look back, Russian empire was rather interested in Xinjiang controlled by Qing empire in the 19th century. Yakub bek had quite hostile relations with the Russian empire and Russia was rather interested in Eastern Turkestan "pacified" by Chinese, rather than a Muslim khanate there. Russia peacfully returned the territory of Ili back to China although it could easily claim it and even continue to feed Uighur animosity to Chinese after 1877. Similarly for obvious reasons USSR only welcomed when PLA took over Xinjiang in 1949. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Forgotten
Date Posted: 09-May-2008 at 03:54
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"
I think the history of Xinjiang is like the history of Thrace region, Greece. Thrace bacame a part of ancient Greece very early, although the people living there was different from Greeks. It was take over by other powers, such as Roman, Ottoman, but after all, it was reruled by Greece "
This is not true, so you say because the han ruled it before the uyghurs then its a chinese land ?!!! what about the huns ? and the ancient huns ? they ruled the eastern turkistan before the hans ! and the huns are the ancestors of the uyghurs so the uyghurs are the real rulers of eastern turkistan.
dont say that uyghur fled from mongolia to eastern turkistan because of the kyrgyz, yes uyghur were defeated by kyrgyz and alot of them specialy the ruler family to eastern turkistan but before that happen alot of uyghurs and turks were living there, no one can believe that a whole tribe can fled to a very far place because of war !
chinese historians are always trying to claim alot of wrong things about uyghurs, like the today uyghurs are not a real uyghurs because they mixed with the locals of eastern turkistan and this is also is not correct, yes mixing between the two people happend but that doesnt happen to the uyghurs who lived there.
look at china wall and you will see the real map of china.
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Posted By: kafkas
Date Posted: 09-May-2008 at 04:53
There was no indigenous Indo-European civilization of East Turkestan. -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:41
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:42
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:44
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:45
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:46
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:52
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 14:54
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Uighurs mainly divided into 2 groups,1 is AntiChina,1 is ProChina,the proChina group are mainly the richer uighurs who got lots of Non-Uighur friends. |
Posted By: Bankotsu
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 15:05
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Anyone knows which country is supporting the East Turkestan movement to destabilise China? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_independence_movement - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2008 at 05:43
| Turkey has nothing to do with these Uighurs,they are different from them in terms of Lineage,Uighurs in Xinjiang was already an independent ethnic group since many centuries ago,and they were mixed with the hans and mongols.Talking about the relationship between the China uighurs and Turkey turks just like comparing the Japanese/koreans with the hans |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 00:30
i dont know you are a turk or chinese ,but it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about!
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 15:26
I think he has a point. The Turkish idea of "pan Turkinsim" leads the turks to support peoples that they are only distantly related to. The fact that Uighur resistance to the Han Chinsese is nationalistic and not Islamic makes it easier for the secular Turks to give support. Clearly, the Uighurs are a Turkic people and they do share cultural elements with Turkey. At the same time, Chinese and Japanese are both Asian peoples and share cultural elements as well. This does not make them close relatives.
I have a funny feeing that if the Uighurs were fundamentalist Muslims with Jihadist resistance groups, the Turkish government would suddenly consider them be an ethnically mixed people with only a little Turkic heritage. As such, they would not be welcomed to immigrate.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:18
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Turks and Uighurs are still much closer to each other than Chinese and Japanese. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:20
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Nice thread! I learned some things. I read about the current condition of the Uighurs recently. -------------  
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 16:45
I could imagine so because:
- Turks and Uighurs speak similar languages and can mostly understand each other without translation
- Turks and Uighurs are both Sunii Muslim
- The origins of both the Turks and Uighurs could be traced back to the Gokturk Empire in the 6th century
While between the Chinese and the Japanese:
- the begin with, spoken Chinese has nothing to do with Japanese, although the Japanese borrowed many written characters from the Chinese
- the Japanese are a predominantly Buddhist nation, while the Chinese are still mostly pagan.
- historically, the Chinese and the Japanese have never been the part of the same nation or state, except during the Japanese invasion of China during WWII.
I've personally never known any Uighurs, but I have known Turks, Chinese, and Japanese, and I have visited both China and Turkey; and from my personal impression, the Chinese and Japanese have rather different temporaments.
I cannot however, make the comparison in this aspects between Turks and Uighurs for I've never known any Uighurs.
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Posted By: sersan
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 01:39
You may be heavily influenced by the brain-wash education or too sensitive about China's headaches like East Turkistan.
It was true that ET independence movement was "supported" by Soviet. What kind of support? ET government could get a gun at the price of five sheep, five bullets for one sheep. Very expensive, right? But ET people were willing to do it. Why? Think about it.
If there had not been a strong support from the ET people themselves, how could Soviet have successfully made use of Uyghurs to realize its political goal? Why did Soviet choose ET/Uyghurs to play the game? Why not any Chinese provinces? You may know how Ottoman Empire collapsed. Western empires' strategy was only one of the reasons. The more important was that those Arabic people and South-eastern European peoples wanted to get independent. So you cannot say "it is MERELY" a strategy of Soviet to weaken China.
Since 1759, the year when China conquered the ET region (although Manchurians were the ruling class), Uyghurs have never given up fighting back. Hundreds of rebellions were recorded in history. By the way, Yaqub was not a foreigner to native people in ET. The foreign forces have been Chinese and Russian always.
Speaking of Uyghurs nowadays, I am sure that most of them are extremely pissed at Chinese just like those in Istanbul. The difference is that people under Chinese control don't express their real feeling just to survive while Uyghurs have such freedom in Turkey.
Don't convey illusions by repeating such brain-wash comments. When guns are no longer pointed to their heads, ET people will make their voice heard. Then the world will know whether it is because of a foreign strategy or the native people's desire.
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Posted By: sersan
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 02:23
Uyghurs have been living seperately and far away from Turks in Turkey since more than a thousand years ago. But the difference between them is much less than that between some of Chinese provinces. Maybe we can conclude the ancesters of Uyghurs and Turkish Turks might share much more similarities or they might be almost identical. Such similarities have nothing to do with Pan-turkism.
Despite abundant historical resourses, Chinese authority and people educated by its education system like to neglect such facts to insist on wrong conclusions for the sake of current political sistuation. The following is some examples.
What is Turk? Those who set up Gokturk Empire and later fled to Anatolia.
What is Uyghur? Those who set up Uyghur Empire in Mongolia and later fled to Xinjiang, which began to be part of China from very very ancient time.
What is Han? Those who has a 5000-year civilization and offered a land to later coming Uyghurs.
The definition of Turk or of Uyghur is minimized. If the same kind of definition is applied to Han, then we can conclude that Han people are those who set up Han Dynasty about 2000 years ago and later fled to Jiangxi, Fujian and Guangdong area and call themselves Kejiaren. How will Chinese react to this conclusion?
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 11:16
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 22:20
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The three main branches of Turkic, Oghuz, Chaghtai/Karluk, Kipchak can best be described as a "dialect continuum". The Turkish spoken in Turkey starts drifting towards Azerbaycan Turkish dialect as you move east across Anatolia. There is no start of cut off point. Azerbaycan Turkish drifts closer to the Turkmen in Southern Turkmenistan/Norther Iran, the Turkmen shifts to Ozbekistan dialect around the Khwarezm region. This is why people in Azerbaycan find the Turkic dialect of that region of Ozbekistan easy to understand and people in Turkey find it easier. The Turkic in Ozbekistan drifts to a language continuum with Eastern Turkistan/Xinjian. In the North of Turkmenistan the Karakalpak drifts to Kipchak. However, Chuvash and the Siberian Turkic languages do not fall into the dialect continuums, they have considerable differences. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: ychennay
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 07:10
I don't really think that is true at all. I am studying Turkish right now and have been examining some of the differences/similiarities between Turkic languages and Turkish. You can probably understand some basic phrases such as "iyi aksamlar" (good afternoon) but I highly doubt somebody knowing only Turkish would be able to hold meaningful conversations in the Uyghur language. However as I am only studying Turkish and am not fluent in it... I really cannot say definitively. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 21:45
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To be able to understand other language doesn't necessarily mean to be able to be able to speak it fluently. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 23:09
Listen to some Uygur Turkic http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=umMGVu2kYDU&feature=related http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl4ZvlbrOhU&feature=related As I said Turkic is a dialect continum, Turkish in Turkey merges with the Turkish spoken in Azerbaycan, Iran, Iraq with no clear distinction or boundry. This then happens with Turkmen of Turkmenistan. Khwarzemshah region of Ozbekistan/Turkmenistan is where this continues then into Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang. Karakalpak is a continum to Kipchak to the North. The closest main Turkic groups are Karluk/Chaghtay and Oghuz, this is due to historic regions, Karluk/Chaghtay was the lingua franca of Turkistan and most of the literature written was in this dialect, Oghuz was the lingua franca of the Ottoman Empire and had a strong presence in Azerbaycan/Northern Iran. These two had more interaction and influenced each other. Kiphak remained most distant but there are exceptions, such as Crimean Tatar and Caucasus Turkic regions are like a blend between Kipchak/Oghuz. Its not a Black and White issue, its mostly blurred and something inbetween. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 04:13
Closer in only certain aspects. But I can find other ways in which the Chinese and Japanese are closer to each other. Both the Chinese and Japanese use Kanji, the Uighur script and the Turkish script are nothing alike. Both the Chinese and Japanese are Mongoloids, the Uighur on the other hand has some mongoloid blood mixed with Caucasians while the Turks are mainly Caucasians. The Chinese and Japanese also share many common customs and family views which the Uighurs and the Turks have nothing in common. Even in clothing, Chinese and Japanese are far closer to each other today than Uighurs are to Turks. Its difficult, and sometimes impossible to tell whether a person is Japanese or Chinese, but I can tell fairly easily who is a turk and who is a Uighur. In fact the only relation between the Uighur and the Turk is a linguistic family which common mass don't really care about. |
Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 04:22
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""the Japanese are a predominantly Buddhist nation, while the Chinese are still mostly pagan."" Umm, thats not true at all. Japan is quite none-thiest just like China. There are many people who worship the Buddha, but the same can be said of China. """Despite abundant historical resourses, Chinese authority and
people educated by its education system like to neglect such facts to
insist on wrong conclusions for the sake of current political
sistuation. The following is some examples.""" There is no such thing as wrong or right conclusions. There is only constructionist interpretations of history adopted by each nation to suit the needs of their time. The Turkisk notion of Pan-Turkism is no less ridiculous than the Chinese doctrine of 56 ethnic nationhood. The fact is, the Uihgurs before the 19th century had no concept that they belonged to a bigger turkic family nor to the Chinese big nation. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 05:14
Yeah, and Japanese also have the alphabets which Chinese have no clue about.
False. Uighurs use different scripts and a Latin script similar to Turkish is also one of them
Turks have some Mongoloid racial features as well. Proves nothing
Like what? Turkish and Uighur customs are definitely no less similar to each other than Japanese to Chinese
What closing? Traditional Japanese and Chinese clothing is not the same
It's in fact very easy. As for me, it's very hard to confuse a Japanese and a Chinese. Similarly a lay person can easily confuse Turks, Iranian, Uighurs etc. as "Middle Easterners" and so on.
Yeah, and also customs and religion. More over, Turks think of Uighurs with sympathy and vice versa; but we can't say the same of Chinese and Japanese. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 07:16
The Japanese use Hiragana and Katakana, both of which were phonetically modeled on Kanji characters. The point is, Japanese Kanji are mostly the same as Chinese kanji, and are mutually comprehensible, if a Chinese person walks to Japan, they can get around by just reading kanji, I've been there and done that. My Japanese friends have done the same thing in China. Yet a Turk can't do the same in Xinjiang. And I also know that from experience since I lived in Urumchi for 3 years, the people there are nothing like the Turks of Turkey other than the fact that they are both muslims and has a supposed common linguistic and historical origin.
No its not false. Stop talking about things which you don't know. The so called "Latin script" just has Roman alphabets, the only similarity between the New Uighur Roman script with Turkish is its alphabet nothing more. The Uighur script is no more closer to the Turkish one than it is to Russian or English. Chinese and Japanese today also use Latin alphabets in the form of Pinyin and Romanji, yet they are far from mutually comprehensible. And that is the same situation with the Turkish and Uighur scripts, Latin or not. But Kanji on the other hand, IS mutually comprehensible for the most part.
Filial piety, family collectivism, and many other aspect of Confucianism as well as Buddhism. And these are just older traditions. East Asia is slowly starting to be highly economically and culturally integrated. The same can't be said about the Uighurs with the turks. With Japan's cultural influence, many modern Chinese adopted Japanese fashion, hairstyle, clothing, and the Japanese company's good luck attitude, especially in the big cities. Shanghai is almost like another Tokyo. You could only tell these if you actually lived in these places. But I suspect you are just talking out of what you read in outdated books and from the Chinese rural immigrants that are all over the world.
Modern clothing, they were practically the same thing. The Uighurs on the other hand usually don't wear the same thing as the Turks. Here are common Uighur clothings: http://tiongkokbaru.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/muslim-uighur2.jpg I haven't seen a single Turk who wears these. The Kimono is also modeled after ancient Chinese clothing and is very similar.
Please. It seems you've never been to Japan or China. Tell me if these guys are Chinese or Japanese. They are just some random people I sort out; http://www.urbanmodels.co.uk/nicksblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/Japanese%20Guy%201.jpg. http://www.sino.net/guide/images/japan/Japanese_man.jpg http://lh6.ggpht.com/elaing.zhang/Rz_YHpnsVfI/AAAAAAAAHB4/yHkPNJHtbzI/s800/6162755_m_6162757_1397.jpg http://www.veip.cn/upimg/photo/pic/mingxing/200712123040778032.jpg You can honestly tell me with a straight face that you can easily tell the difference from either their clothing or their appearance? At best, you can only tell a portion of the population, but not the majority. I lived in both countries for half of my life and trust me, there is a large number of people whom you can not tell at all. Usually, for most people, the differences are so subtle that only when they are in a group can you actually tell the difference, while some are completely indistinguishable.
Please tell me you are joking. Have you even seen a Uighur from Xinjiang? The only ones who could possibly confuse a Uighur with a Turk are people who probably never seen a middle easterner in their life(And there is no middle eastern appearance for your information, there are only caucasoid and mongoloid looks with internal variations). The turks are mostly Caucasians, whatever Mongoloid genes they have in the past, it is pretty much unnoticeable today. Here are typical Turks today: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/60076.html http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L6pDyjqqsvY/R64UcAYqxGI/AAAAAAAALJk/95xlCvTwHJU/s400/turkey3.jpg http://euro2008.football.co.uk/images/news/400x400_EmreNew2.jpg http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2008/06/Soccer_Euro_2008_Turk_Flah_Medium.JPG Here are the Uighurs: http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/60076.html http://www.theorientalcaravan.com/images/silk_road/Uighur_man_Kashgar_Market2.jpg http://www.theorientalcaravan.com/images/Lanzhou%20Postcard/Uighur%20girls%20at%20Gaochang%20copy.JPG You can clearly see heavy mongoloid features in the Uighurs but not the Turks. Sometimes I am amazed at how much 19th century ethnic theories could cloud common sense.
Nothing remains permanent, in the early 20th century, Chinese view of Japan and vice versa is also highly sympathetic, whats your point? They are so sympathetic that the Japanese wanted to eastablish a pan Asiatic race, and many Chinese, such as Wang Jing Wei actually bought into their doctrine. The fact is, all of these modern nationalist constructions based on linguistics of the 19th and 20th century are based on European categorizations. These cooncepts did not exist prior to European ascendence. Some people here took these theoretical constructs for granted as inherent and pre-existing truths and didn't even bother questioning their constructive nature. China don't have to play that game, it has its own tradition and methods of categorization, and if it becomes powerful, it will enforce its own perception on the world in opposition to the European one. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 12:27
I suggest you go and research customs in Turkey and Uygur regions in Turkey before making ridiculous comments. Which customs shall we start from, culinary? there are many common dishes, like Dolma's, Manti's, Kebab/Kewaps etc The Chaikhana (Chayhane) is a common meeting and social place for locals. Musically, Uygur music is similar to Turkish than to Chinese or Japanese, there are common legends, common literary figures and literatures, common carpet weaving traditions, etc etc Family views are similar and religion has a big role in this.
Language and religion are two very important aspects of any group of people, Japanease and Chinese share neither.
I don't think he's joking, the only person doing the joking is you, Uyghurs can easily be confused for middle easterners, I even know Chinese who say they look so different to Chinese. And if you want to get into showing pics, I can show you people in Turkey who look Scandanavian, Black African, Mediterannean and Mongoloid.
Chinese and Japanese, don't belong to the same linguistic group, religion or percieved ethnic group. The most neutral people in Turkey and Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang, know they are both Turkic peoples, there is a sense of religous and ethnic brotherhood between these peoples. Chinese and Japanese don't have any deep bonds and connections to have a sympathetic view of each other. Infact Japanese if you count Japanese as being an "Altaic" language they'd have more ties with Uygurs than Chinese  ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: honeybee
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 14:46
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Only the southern and Northern dialects has many differences, most of northern Chinese dialects are very similar and can be understood by each other.
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Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 15:01
If you read, I lived in Urumchi for 3 years. Have you? If not you should be the one who needs to visit and do research. I am bombarded with Uighur dance and music all around me, and I see little resemblance to the music or dances I hear in Turkey. So they share a few culinary dish and carpet weaving tradition, that is hardly enough for a claim that the two people resemble each other more than the Chinese and the Japanese, who share much more similar arts, cuisine, music, architecture, and you name it.
Religion is only important to countries with strong religious traditions. Language roots(not mutually comprehensible language, which the Uighurs and Turks don't share) are only important to linguists and modern ultranationalists, neither of which is important to China or Japan.
Bull. And you accuse me of not doing enough research? The Chinese and Japanese both have Buddhism and Zen. And both countries are mainly non-religious today. Even 60% of Japanese words has Chinese origin, and many modern Chinese word compounds have Japanese origin. Whether or not Uighurs share the same language family is a mute point, the point been that they and the Turks are mutually incomprehensible. So the language family bickering only has relevance to the linguists.
lol, From the nonsense you are talking its clear you haven't seen a Uighur at all next to a Turk. If he is not joking then he lacks common sense just like you, I see Uighur and talk to them frequently. They look nothing like the Turks.
Thats a mute point and a weak one. The fact is, the great majority of the Turks look completely Caucasian and that was my point. And this makes them easy to distinguish from the Uighurs who look like mixed bloods. Yet on the other hand, the great majority of the Japanese and Chinese can easily be confused even by someone who lived among them their whole life for the simple reason that both people are northern mongoloids. If you want to show me individual pictures, I can even show you individual pictures where some Europeans look Asian and some Mongoloid with caucasoid features.
Chinese and Japanese both have Buddhism and atheism, so you are simply wrong on the religion part. As for linguistic group, thats only of interest to the linguists. And ethnic group's categorization is largely subjective. But more decisively, Chinese and Japanese are of the same race; the Mongoloid, while the Uighurs are a mixed group with heavy reseamblances to both while most turks look completely caucasian.
Wrong and Wrong. The mutual hostility between Japan and China actually only began in the 80s when the prime minister of Japan visited the Yukusune. During Sui times the Japanese claimed to be descended from the kingdom of Wu. During Tang times and even in the 60s, the Japanese even made up the legend that they came from Xu Fu. China has only positive things to say about Japan prior to world war 2. In fact many looked up to Japan as a model of imitation and the entire Chinese revolution base of operation was first established in Japan. So the bond is very real and the modern hostility might well die out in just the next generation.
The fact is, sympathy is something that is ephemeral and changes easily in the context of strategic significance.
This blind emphasis on distant linguistic roots is getting ridiculous to the extent that nationalists like you put empty theories in front of common sense. None of these theories had any significance to the Asians intellectuals until the 20th century, and still remains irrelevant to the common mass. Tell this to a common Japanese and they won't even know what the word Altaic means. Associate them with Uighurs and they'll think you are on dope. And If linguistic root is all you go by for connection, then I guess you might as well say that Europeans and Indians are closer to each other than Indians are to Burmese since the former share linguistic roots. Jamaicans will also be closer to the British than to their African ancestors since they speak English. But somehow I think the great majority of Indians and Burmese will disagree with this ridiculous theory.
 In fact I think most of them don't even know anything about the Indo-European language theory. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 17:45
Just a little example. Nadira - Hasret Çektim نادىرە ھەسرەت چەكتىمhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZbGmnOylM Hasret Chektimhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7A7Yix4oE&feature=related Same song, one sung in Turkey one in Eastern Turkistan/Xinjian. There are similar and same instruments used, similar musical traditions and so on, claiming their is no resemblance is incorrect.
Religion can be so important that nations can be divided, like in Ireland. It can be one of the factor which influence a peoples culture or identity as it can have effect on how society does certain things.
Language, religion, identity, culture etc are the factors which differentiate groups of human societies called nations, without them were all simply humans, therefore if were discussing ethnics or nations characteristics these are the important factors. Otherwise, were all pretty much the same and their is no point of further discussion.
Japanese also have Shintoism, Chinese have Taoism and being non-religous isn't a shared belief.
So you can understand Japanese can you.
When you learn the language then you decide for yourself, there is a degree of mutual intellegibility between the two, if you knew either language you could get by in the other country, now I'm not saying they would be 100% fluent but would know enough to not be alienated and within a relatively short amount of time be more or less fluent after adjusting to the lexical differences.
Atheism is not a shared religous tradition. Japanese and Chinese lack the fundamental basics which unite ethnic groups, language, religion and they don't identify or have sympathies as being distant relatives either. Basically, "you" believe Chinese and Japanese are virtually the same, that's fine, nationhood can be subjective but if we look at what can be discussed objectively, like language, religion and so on they are not as close as you make out. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 17:47
Meaningless comment, since Chinese don't understand hiragana and katakana. Yes, Japanese adopted Chinese characters, so did other Asian nations. We can't however say based on this only that they are closer to each other than Uighurs to Turks.
Well. Are you talking about the Ancient Uighur script? It hasn't been used by Uighurs for more than a millenium. If you want to talk about the historical past, however, both Uighurs and Turks used Arabic script until very recently and a modern Uighur latic script is very close to Turkish script. And, please make some research about modern Uighurs alphabets before claiming it's far from being mutually comprehensive with a modern Turkish alpahabet.
Yeah, I lived there and I'm telling from my experience. Shanghai isn't like Tokyo at all except that both cities are very big. And although Japanese popular culture is very popular in the East Asia it doesn't influence Chinese so fully as you claim. Some Chinese like American pop culture very much as well. It doesn't make them culturally Americans.
"Modern clothing" all come from the West. And it's weared by all: Uighurs and Turks, Chinese and Japanese. Although Kimino is modeled on Tang clothings it doesn't meant that more recent Chinese traditional clothing are very close to Japanese.
Your picture shows nothing of a traditional Uighur costume. The boys are just wearing typical western shirts and skullcaps. Some people in rural areas of Turkey wear similar skullcaps even Chinese muslims wear them. So, you are actually proving that I'm right.
Perhaps, even if you lived there, you spent most of your time communicatting with the expats in English and showing zero interest in local culture, that's why it's still so hard for you to draw the lines between these peole. As for me, I did live in Taiwan and China and I traveled to Japan as well. I am fluent in Chinese language and graduated from graduate school there. And, honestly, for a person who has similar experience it's not difficult to distinguish between a Japanese and a Chinese. The way, that Japanese people behave is different from Chinese. So, sorry, but I don't trust you at all.
Yes, perhaps when if is a very "Mongoloid" Uighur he looks differently from an averarge Turk. But it's not always the case at all. And if you want to see the pictures. Please review the thread from the very beginning. Some members posted pictures of Uighur people that look very similar to Turks.
This comment by alone shows how few you really know about the "sympathies" between Japanese and Chinese. Especially, about Japanese "pan-Asiatic" race. Anybody can prove you wrong by asking any Chinese from PRC about how deep his "sympathy" is to the "Great Japanese Empire" and "pan-Asiatic race." ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 18:52
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Dick,
I have travelled in China, and I also have Chinese friends, but I haven't personally known many Japanese except on a very superficial level.
At least the impression I get through my Chinese friends is that they certainly DO NOT feel any type of pan-Asian solidarity with ANY other Asian nation, and CERTAINLY NOT with the Japanese.
Hostilities between China and Japan isn't something post-80s, but something that started in the late 19th century when Japan started invading China. Among all the colonial powers dividing up China in the early 20th century, Japan was the most brutal, who carried out "ethnic cleansing" in Manchuria not too dsimilar to what the German nazis did to the Jews.
It took the Chinese 8 years to expell the Japanese, and hatred still remains.
The "pan Asian race" was nothing but a fascist political slogan used by Japan for expansion purposes, similar to Hitler's "pan Aryan race". Few Asian nations fell for it.
If you call a Chinese person "Japanese" he would get VERY offended. This however, does not happen when you call a Uighur "Turkish"; because he does feel part of the greater Turkic cultural identity.
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Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 09:56
There are bound to have some influence in virtually anything. Even Chinese Pi pa came from central Asia, but the crux of the issue here is whether the Uighur and Turkish similarities are greater than Sino-Japanese-Korean similarities, since most aspect of traditional Japanese and Korean culture has traits of Chinese influence as well. While many modern Chinese cultural elements has Japanese influence. You also seem to be comparing traditional culture, if that was the case, Japan and China would be even more similar. But modern Turkish culture is quite different from modern Uighur culture because the Uighurs aren't as modernized.
The concept of modern nation is a European definition, a notion which even the Europeans themselves are slowly starting to abandon. Ancient East Asia did not follow any of that. Take the Koreans for example, despite the modern fuss about altaic origin by some ultranationalists today, ancient Koreans would feel ridiculous at such a categorization, if not outright offensive. Koreans of the 17th century felt far closer to the Chinese than to the Manchus or Mongols, when the Ming fell, the Koreans even started to call themselves "little Chinese civilization" and thought that they are the only ones who inherited Chinese culture.
Shinto only makes up 11% of the Japanese population. Most Japanese and Chinese are none-religious, followed by Buddhism as the major religion. You also need to have some grasp of the view of religion shared by East Asian countries, which is very different from the western ones(Islamic countries included). In the East, religion is not that important, at least to the central of focus in the west. A survey showed that for every second person religion has no importance at all in everyday life, for 38% it is a little bit important, and for only 12% it is either important or very important. 40% of the Japanese Christians indicated that religion is important or very important for them in everyday life, while for majorities of Buddhists and Shintoists religion has only a little importance in daily life. The same is true of China.
Nor is religion exclusive, one could easily be both Buddhist and shinto or Buddhist and Daoist. And many people who follow regular buddhist and ancestral worship rituals in both China and Japan would consider themselves none-religious. So all surveys on religion in the western manner is problematic. The only differences between Chinese and Japanese religion is that the traditional folk gods are different, but we also need to realize that in different locations within China and Japan the gods that were worship is different from other native locations as well. In another word, the religious mentality in China and Japan is actually very similar.
(I actually can understand Japanese because I studied it), and can you understand Uighur?
I can read lots of Japanese characters even before I learned the language.
You can say the same about Chinese, when before I studied Japanese, I was able to get around Japan fine too by reading the signs.
No, Chinese and Japanese athiesm is a shared religious mentality while buddhism IS a shared tradition. In fact most Japanese buddhist schools like the Zen and Tiantai are based on Chinese schools rather than Indian ones.
Thats not what I believe at all. I am merely questioning the notion that Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese are not as close to each other as the Uighurs and the Turks.
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Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 10:33
This question is directly addressing your comment that Uighurs and Turkish script today have similarities because they both use alphabets dervied from the Latin alphabets, so I told you that the Japanese alphabet also derived from Kanji characters. Its not meaningless, its attacking your double standard. However, Uighur and Turkish scripts are very different while at least the Kanji element is shared and understood by both the Chinese and Japanese, hence I can say that the Chinese and Japanese script are closer to each other than Uighur and Turkish script.
I think you are the one that needs to do some research on Uighur scripts today. The primary script of the Uighurs today is still the one based on the Arabic alphabet(only the alphabet, not the script) used since the 13th century(prior to that they used the old Uighur script) not the Latin script. The Latin script was just a creation of the PRC for phonetic purposes, created in 1976, in 1982, the Xinjiang authority decided that the Latin script was only to be used as an auxiliar to the actual Uighur script. So the Uighur Latin script is really just a Uighur version of the Han Chinese, Hanyu Pin yin, not the primary script. The Turks on the other hand completely use the Latin script as the primary script.
And if you do want to talk about the historical past, I should also remind you that Japanese also used Chinese scripts in its entirety in the very beginning. Hiragana and Katakana is only an invention of the 9th century.
Japanese and Korean culture are more influential than American ones in China, that is verified through a recent statistical research. And I also need to remind you that many Japanese like American pop as well. So the two countries still share the similarity of picking up American pop culture.
Modern fashion is not completely the same thing, there are still a variety of styles within these clothes. And most East Asian countries adopt the Japanese style primarily, although it must be admitted that the American influence is great too. Yet the origin is irrelevant to the fact that they are the same, while the Uighurs, do to their less modernized environment, is starting to be more and more different from the Turks.
lol, I AM an American born Japanese-Chinese(half-half). So I am far more qualified to tell you how we look than you do. I my first language is both Chinese and English, and picked up Japanese later as well), lived in China for 5 years, and lived in Japan for 2. The fact of the matter is, its impossible most of the time to tell the difference between the two people by mere appearance.
Wait, I don't care about some Uighurs, I care about the Majority, the fact of the matter is the Chinese and Japanese look far closer to each other than Uighurs and Turks do.
No, I think its you who need a history lesson. Whatever came out of modern PRC's anti-Japanese education, it doesn't change the fact that the ancient relation was very friendly. The original Japanese during the 5th century even claimed to be descended from the Wu kingdom of China. Anti-Japanese sentiment only really started in 1915, when Japan imposed the 21 demands. Prior to that Japan was the model which China followed. Even the Chinese revolution of 1911's organization, the Tong Meng Hui, was established IN Japan. As for the Pan-Asiatic race been bull, I need to remind you that many people, Chinese and Japanese, did actually buy into it. Look up a biography of Wang Jing Wei, and it'll tell you that he thought that Asia should unite against the Western white race, since the later is the real threat. |
Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 11:59
Who ever said Chinese today feel that way? My whole point is that identities are constructive and depends on the conditions of the time, ancient Japanese and Koreans considered themselves to be of the same origin as Chinese in lenged, so did the Xianbei and Xiongnu of the 16 kingdom period. Thats because China was strong at the time and culturally appealing, the whole Pan-anything we have today is due to modern constructions and needs, and will most likely dissappear in the future when the economic and political environment changes. Who said that language, or even ethnic group, mean the feeling of unity? The Taiwanese are the same ethnic group as the Mainland Chinese, but many of them don't feel unity because they are economically and politically different. Thats enough to debunk any claim that ethnicity alone calls for unity. There are already speculations and books written about a possible AU economic system, it might well be carried out in the future.
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Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 12:02
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 13:45
A very weak argument. I just game a basic example highlighting similarities, your just avoiding it because it conflicts with your views.
This is an obsurd argument. You do realise the difference between a "script" and "language"? a language can be written in any script. For example Ozbekistan and Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang Turkic is the same however during the Soviet era one used Cryllic one used Latin and Arabic script. Chinese and Japanese having a close script does not show closeness, unless you think people in Peru and New Zealand are ethnic brothers because they both use a similar script.
Did you buy into it aswell  Calvo summed it up Dick.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: dick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 14:19
Its not weak since it is completely relevent to the topic. You still haven't shown how Uighurs are closer to the Turks than the Japanese and Koreans are to the Chinese.
Its not absurd at all. And your samples are weak and shows that you do not understand some basic theories of script. The Uighurs did not use either the Latin or the Arabic script. They merely used their alphabet, which is very different from adopting the script. The alphabet is a mere tool for pronounciation, the Japanese hiragana is also based on the pronounciation of Chinese Kanji. By only adopting their alphabet, it means that you can only read that script but you won't understand a word of it. Thats different in the case of Kanji, their meanings are mutually comprehensible for the most part(there are exceptions).
By claiming language as more important than script, you are imposing a very western centric view of East Asia which is downright misleading. In Asia, its the script which unifies the people, not the language. Its the Chinese script that unified the empires of China and kept its central bureaucracy together, not the language, since all Chinese people spoke a different dialect.
Thats a strawman argument. There are many other factors that separates people from Peru and New Zealand, not just the script; the script is but ONE aspect of similarity, and the same can be said for language. I can also use your own argument against you; if language family is what you consider to determine unity then you are also telling me that people from Peru are ethnic brothers with the Italians since they both speak Romance languages?
No, I'm merely describing a historical fact
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 14:55
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There is one curious thing that I have noticed: this so-called pan-Asian identity exists somewhat more among Asian-Americans in the USA and in Asia itself. Chinese, Japanese, Vietanamese, and Philipinos are grouped together as "Asian" in the USA, therefore they feel a certain degree of solidarity; the same way that Anglo, Italian, and Russian Americans are all grouped together as "white". I've known a few Chinese Americans and Filipino Americans who feel part of this "Asian" community. In Asia itself I don't think that this Asian solidarity really exists. Most of the Chinese people I met in Spain do not feel any connections nor kinship to other Asian nationalities. The Japanese, in fact, are the nationality that they despise the most because of the atrocities of WWII. I don't think the anti-Japanese sentiment is really a creation of the Communist Party. Many of these Chinese I've met say that it's their grandparents who are the die-hard "anti-Japps" because they still have the memory of the genocide committed by the Japanese in China.
I just had a check on "Wang Jin Wei". He was considered by the Chinese as a traitor; and his political posture was very marginal at the time: probably similar to the Vichy regime in France who collaborated with the Nazis.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 15:51
Let's look at this objetively, without "our" personal opinions blurring our vision. People in Turkey and Uygur regions share; - Common language group - Common religion - Common Turkic heritage However, Chinese, Koreans and Chinese, don't share the same language, do not have a common supra-identity ie they arn't all branches of the Chinese or Japanese or Korean nation and they have various religions although their are common religous beliefs as well. Korean infact is sometimes classified as being "Altaic", now this is contraversial and Japanese being Altaic is even more contraversial, however, it shows that they don't have a common linguistic root with Chinese.
Have you got a problem with the West? all you do is blame them for everything. Its not misleading, its pretty simple, you can write a language in any script, its language which unifies people not a script, otherwise Colombians and Australians would be the same.
Well from a linguistic point of view they have more in common than Japanese, Korean and Chinese do.
This describes what's going on in this post. After a few generations, when alot of the cultural traits dissapear and all East-Asians are lumped together, they identify more with each other as they're from the same region and look quite similar. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 15:58
You're lying. Never a person whose first language is Chinese would call Chinese characters "kanji."
Even if you're an Asian-American, you first language is English. It's true that most of the young Asian Americans can't speak the languages of their ancestors.
And don't brag about how many years you lived there. I met people who have been living there for 20 years and speak not a word of a language.
Finally, Asian-Americans look different from real Asians from China and Japan. They look "American." It's also actually very easy to see whether a person is a Chinese or Japanese-American or China-Chinese or Japan-Japanese.
So, indeed, if you want to distinguish between Asian-Americans in the US and Canada; it would be some times very hard to say.
But if you see a person raised in Japan and compare it to a person raised in China the differnce is more then obvious. The environment has a great influence on the outlook and behavoir of the person. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 05:39
Chinese Japanese & Koreans are closer to each other than China's Islamic Uighurs and Turkish people.
I've worked with a native Turk for over 10 years,she and husband have " Mediterranean " looks oppose to more " Central-Asian " looking Chinese Uighurs.
I think modern day Turks are a mixed people,a small percentage can trace roots to ancient Central Asia.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 06:38
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Many people wouldn't agree with you. But in any case, we are not discussing here the closeness based on the outlook only. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 10:41
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Regarding ethnic or genetic relatedness,it can be a bias has aspects that reflect cultural/social/historical currents.
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Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 10:48
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 11:48
"ethnicity" is defined mainly by cultural and linguistic heritage, rather than physical appearance. If physical appearance defined ethnicity, then you could argue that Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Chechens, Syrians, and Armenians and closely related ethnicities.... and I'm sure that most people from these nationalities will strongly disagree with you, if not feel deeply offended.
Many people confuse the term "ethnic group" and "race", which have rather different meaning.
If Uighurs, Kazakhs, Turkmen, and Anatolian Turks all speak similar language and profess the same religion, they are certainly related some way.
Sometimes I reckon that the difference between Chinese and Japanese could be compared to Spain and Morocco. They 2 cultures have influenced each other in the past, but basis of their foundation is completely different.
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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 12:12
Of-course,on mutual ancestry by percentage but not overall general population
 White-Americans and European nationalities are centainly related in this regard but the other 35%-40% non-European origins of US population aren't.
By the way,foundation of Japanese civilization was " Chinese origin " including their engrained concept of Harmony 以和爲貴.
Shotoku's Seventeen-Article Constitution [Jushichijo Kenpo] 十七条憲法
http://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E4%B8%83%E6%9D%A1%E6%86%B2%E6%B3%95 - http://ja.wikisource.org/wiki/%E5%8D%81%E4%B8%83%E6%9D%A1%E6%86%B2%E6%B3%95
http://www.sarudama.com/japanese_history/jushichijokenpo.shtml - http://www.sarudama.com/japanese_history/jushichijokenpo.shtml
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 15:18
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I don't think that the founding population of Japan had its roots in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people#Origins - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_people#Origins
The common origin of the Turkic people, from Uighurs to the Anatolian Turks, is historically very established. They all originated from the Gokturk Khanate in the 6th-8th century; and they shared their origins in pastoral nomadism.
As far as I know, historical migrations between China and Japan had been very scarce, mainly due to the turbulent sea that divides them.
Anyway, my point is that common ancestry isn't the only factor that determines ethnic relativeness. All example. the Spanish and Italians often feel "ethnically close" due to similar language and customs and the common "Latin identity"; yet very few Spaniards alive today descend from migrations from Roman Italy. The Roman occupation imposed a cultural assimilation process rather than a population replacement.
The same could be applied to North Africa. The number of Arabs that invaded from the Middle East was very few compared to the native populations; yet when the native population adopted the customs and religion of the invaders, they gradually began to identify themselves as "Arabs".
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 15:49
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I believe pebbles didn't mean the foundation as the people that inhabited Japan. What he meant by the foundation is that there is a Confucian principle in the core of the Japanese culture/civilization 以和爲貴 which can be roughly translated from Chinese as "Harmony as the most precious, "important" (thing.)" In other words, the roots of the Japanese civilization lay in China.
However, regardless of this, Turks and Uyghurs are still closer to each other than Chinese and Japanese because besides the civilizational values they know of their linguistic, historical and genetic connection which is absent in the Chinese-Japanese case. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 16:49
What people arn't mixed? ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 18:52
AE thread on " Origins of Japanese people "
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24964&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24964&PN=1
There is the " East Asia indentity " and " closeness " among NE Asian populations but it's hijacked by Japan's Datsu-A Ron 脫亞論
 .Also,political rifts and historical events of 19th-20th centuries divide them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsu-A_Ron - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsu-A_Ron
However,it's the French regard Italians as their " cousins " tho
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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 18:55
Let me re-iterate," relatedness " is relative.
Linguistic, historical and genetic connections are well-established in the Chinese-Japanese case.
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