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Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?

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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?
    Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by Leonardo

 
This is the second time you accuse me to be a racist, whatever this means ... I'm not not a political-correctness worshipper so I don't care ...
 
About Kosovo, it was only an example in which immigration is not the principal issue but demographic divide between two ethnicities is the fundamental issue and in fact immigration from muslims lands is a threat to European ethnicities owing to their differential growth causing demographic divide. It would be the same thing if immigrants from whatever other background had greater birth rates but it's people from muslim background who actually have the gretest birth rates in the world.
 

hmmm...then instead of stopping the "Muslim invasion" you should encourage other ethnicities growth, and there will be no more trouble (for you, for I do not know who else consider this as a problem)
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:35
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Leonardo

Europe is becoming more and more a asshole


then get out of it before you become like it.




HEROI   dont wast your time with him, its obvious he has nothing to say in relation to the replays.



I do not know for Heroi but I like to discuss with whoever-he-may-be Smile
And it seems that he likes that too Wink (maybe I am wrong)


Edited by Illirac - 13-Apr-2008 at 16:35
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by Illirac

Originally posted by Leonardo

 
This is the second time you accuse me to be a racist, whatever this means ... I'm not not a political-correctness worshipper so I don't care ...
 
About Kosovo, it was only an example in which immigration is not the principal issue but demographic divide between two ethnicities is the fundamental issue and in fact immigration from muslims lands is a threat to European ethnicities owing to their differential growth causing demographic divide. It would be the same thing if immigrants from whatever other background had greater birth rates but it's people from muslim background who actually have the gretest birth rates in the world.
 

hmmm...then instead of stopping the "Muslim invasion" you should encourage other ethnicities growth, and there will be no more trouble (for you, for I do not know who else consider this as a problem)
 
 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 
 
 
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:02
Originally posted by Leonardo

 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 


Nor can you stop this invasion of yours
And still i fail to understand why "Dark continent"? Is it so bad that religion is "going down"
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:09
Originally posted by Illirac

Originally posted by Leonardo

 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 


Nor can you stop this invasion of yours
And still i fail to understand why "Dark continent"? Is it so bad that religion is "going down"
 
 
Maybe "religion going down" is only a sympton ot a fatal sickness.
Have you read the article I have posted before?
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:50
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:12
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos
 
I'm not sure whether you're talking about the IRA bombings in London or the more recent ones. Both however were fundamentally religious in origin.
 
There haven't been any non-religious terrorist bombings in London since the late 19th century as far as I'm aware.
 
Personally I myself count Soviet Communism as a religion, but since I'm aware I'm in a minority there I'll grant you the rest.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:31
I fail to see why this thead does not stay on topic. The opening post talks about the lack of relgiosity amoung Europeans. The article given shows fear of fundamentalism among Christians. Only one line was given to Islam and that was at the end where the writer says that Europeans may fill their void with Islam. I must disagree with that writer too. Europeans have a rich culture and rich Christian traditions. An interest to turn back to Christianity would be stonger than being a muslim no matter how great or small the number of muslims living there.
 
 Instead of discussing the effects of secularism on the religious practices among Europeans we have a little bit of muslim bashing going on again. I need to remind members to stick with the topic and not voice your personal fears in this thread. Go to one of the other threads in existance at Intellectual Discussions or Philosopy and Theology to voice them.  


Edited by Seko - 13-Apr-2008 at 20:45
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:33
Originally posted by HEROI

Why should muslim Imigrants be expelled or their numbers severely limited?
 
This is racist.And if you dont get it,is because you are racist.
 
Is the same as for me sain that being a white Europian i want Black people expelled from Europe,or at least their number severely cut.
 
 
Immigrants from Nigeria are among welthiest community in the UK -- they usually get good education and well payed jobs.
I do not think muslims should be expelled but I do believe that European states should change immigration laws in order to allow immigration of only those people who will work rather than live in council houses and get council benefits. This does not mean educated people but hard working people. I am not sure how these criterias can be achieved though.  
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 21:47
Originally posted by Leonardo

Yes, Europe is in the worst point of her entire history. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe owing to immigration. It's mandatory to stop this modern form of islamic invasion.  Muslim immigrants should be expelled or at least their number severely limited.


Nonsense, Europe, especially the west, is doing better than ever before. I certainly wouldn't prefer living in the Europe of 100 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago unless I was exceptionally rich and healthy. If this is a low point, well then there never was a
high point. Unless of course by high point one means that the European elite can conquer,
enslave and exploit other peoples - but that's not what we wish for, or is it? Shocked 

"Muslim" immigration does not hurt Europe, in fact any kind of immigration serves only to
sustain the continued financial growth of the EU, whose combined economy is larger than
that of the US. The reasons why some non-western immigrants contribute to increased crime are social and economic, they cannot be
attributed to any religious or ethnic identity. Sometimes I wonder if what people really fear from non-western immigration is the loss of racial purity, and that's not something we should bring with us into the future in any case.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:26
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Actually in Pais Basco religion is not important in the conflict. ETA is a communist organization. I agree religion is important in Balkans and N Ireland though I doubt it is a main reason of problems. There are also spcial and nationalist issues that matters.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:33
I wish other continents to have such troubles as Europe has and to be in a such a bad shape.
Still it's the best continent to live and this is what matters, not some polls or falling demographics statistics. 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:33
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos
 
I'm not sure whether you're talking about the IRA bombings in London or the more recent ones. Both however were fundamentally religious in origin.
 
There haven't been any non-religious terrorist bombings in London since the late 19th century as far as I'm aware.
 
Personally I myself count Soviet Communism as a religion, but since I'm aware I'm in a minority there I'll grant you the rest.
 
I was speaking of the more recent bombings in 2005 (July, wasn't it?). And yes, they were religious in origin, but that wasn't my point. My point was that the generalization was a silly one. Your point on communism is taken and appreciated; I think it serves to point out that we often overstate the degree of difference between religious adherents and faithful adherents of other stringent ideologies. We also have a tendency, when we adopt this sort of mindset -- dare I call it an ideology? -- to view only one side of the coin when it comes to "troubles", for many things could be classified in this category. Such a mindset leads to ideologically motivated, false generalizations, such as the one I was addressing. The issue is nowhere near simple enough to make the claim that "only the religious parts of Europe have troubles," nor even that "it is mostly the religious parts of Europe that have troubles," at least not in this context.
 
The implicit point of the generalization is that religious is the cause of, or at least an intrinsic contributing factor in, these troubles, and that secularism is a cause for their resolution, or at least does not exacerbate them. As we may obviously see from history, the adoption and implementation of any ideology is fraught with "troubles", even when its adherents are well meaning. Whether this is because the ideology itself is intrinsically flawed (communism), or because it is overblown (secularism and materialism, for proper secular values can be a source of ethical and moral strength, and material goods are not, in and of themselves, evil),or again because there are those who would corrupt it (Christianity, although I'm sure we disagree a bit with regard to specifics here), there will always be difficulty here on Earth.
 
-Akolouthos
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 23:27
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
 
The real threat is not islamic religion per se but demography. The fate of Kosovo is the future of Europe too if we don't stop immigration from muslim lands.
 
 
 
To start off; what exactly does Kosovo have to do with the lack of spirituallity in Europe? Furthermore, Kosovo is not a simple demographics case; nor a religious case. Kosovo seperated due to US interests among the 99 war and its aftereffects.
 
It is not Islamic immigration; Albanians as I have stated in another thread lived in that region as it is for centuries as did Serbs. While I am not a supporter of the Kosovo Indpendence movement; I am able to realize that both have claims in the region. Islam has never had a thing to do with it, Albanians have a high esteem to the Albanian ethnic background first. That is why most Albanians get along well inbetween each other, much more so than other multi religious ethnicities in the Balkans. Thus; no matter the religion (Kosovo is a prime example of secularism too, as are most of the Balkans in the last 20 years) Albanians would have wanted to be seperated. It was a case of ethnic clashing not of religious divides.
 
Stoping non-Christian immigration won't do a thing; a spiritual movement by the varoius churches will do more if you deem spirituallity to be a priority.
 
 
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 07:12
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...


Tell that to the People's Republic of China....


Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by HEROI

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic (the problem is Loyalist and Republicans instead)
Basque: Very Catholic (so is Spain,i dont get your point)
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious(not true,the bigest war fought in the Balkans was between Serbia and Croatia,two Christian States,and problems in the Balkans were ethnic,and not religios) 
...
 
In Northern Ireland the ones causing the trouble (which is a minority on both sides) are religiously divided. The whole partition of Ireland arose from religious differences, specifically the northern fear of Roman Catholic domination. Without that Ireland would have had Home Rule and later independence for the whole island from 1914 onward.
 
I agree about the Basques - I don't understand the point about them.
 
Serbia and Croatia are both Christian states (on the whole) but the first is Orthodox and the second Roman Catholic.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 12:39
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Your point on communism is taken and appreciated; I think it serves to point out that we often overstate the degree of difference between religious adherents and faithful adherents of other stringent ideologies. We also have a tendency, when we adopt this sort of mindset -- dare I call it an ideology? -- to view only one side of the coin when it comes to "troubles", for many things could be classified in this category. Such a mindset leads to ideologically motivated, false generalizations, such as the one I was addressing. The issue is nowhere near simple enough to make the claim that "only the religious parts of Europe have troubles," nor even that "it is mostly the religious parts of Europe that have troubles," at least not in this context.
 
The implicit point of the generalization is that religious is the cause of, or at least an intrinsic contributing factor in, these troubles, and that secularism is a cause for their resolution, or at least does not exacerbate them. As we may obviously see from history, the adoption and implementation of any ideology is fraught with "troubles", even when its adherents are well meaning. Whether this is because the ideology itself is intrinsically flawed (communism), or because it is overblown (secularism and materialism, for proper secular values can be a source of ethical and moral strength, and material goods are not, in and of themselves, evil),or again because there are those who would corrupt it (Christianity, although I'm sure we disagree a bit with regard to specifics here), there will always be difficulty here on Earth.
 
-Akolouthos
 
The causes of these troubles don't lie in religion or ideology or ethnicity or race. The causes lie in people, in particular people with personal political ambitions and power hunger, and especially ones who feel deprived of their rightful (in their eyes) power, or access to power, under the existing socio-political order. (cf bin Laden with regard to the political situation in Saudi Arabia: in a democratic Saudi Arabia I suspect bin Laden would have run for president as a reformer and probably won).
 
Religion, ideology, ethnicity then for them make handy excuses for political, frequently violent, action, and, sadly, they provide excellent motivators for their followers, in particular the ones who are themselves psychologically frustrated.
 
Violent terrorists, were their overt cause not to exist, would simply choose another one.
 
That's why it's not a coincidence that religion is connected with many outbreaks of violence: not because it is a cause, but because it provides a handy excuse.


Edited by gcle2003 - 14-Apr-2008 at 12:42
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 16:25

Personally I believe that rather than Europe being a "dark continent", it is in fact a desirable model to follow for the rest of world. This is a problem which should be approached from a global perspective, over space and time. Limiting it to the ethnic makeup and economic problems over the next few decades is myopic.

The fact is that the the biggest problem Earth will face in the upcoming century is overpopulation, which causes several other problems along with it: environmental degradation, global warming, wars and social unrest, and if these problems are pushed to their hypothetical limits, the collapse of global civilization.

Yes, over the course of human history, the recipe of population growth and economic growth have worked well for human civilizations. However, that was because this growth was achieved thanks to the large potential of the Earth to support such an increasingly demanding population. Not only are modern humans six times as numerous as they were a thousand years ago (a blink of an eye in ecologic terms), but they also consume orders of magnitude more energy. The demands of human civilization upon the environment have increased exponentially oevr the past few thousand years, but the environment only has a limited ability to meet them. If current trends of economic and demographic expansion will continue, we will quickly reach a point of no return, which will result in a decreased ability of the ecosystem to support us, and a subsequent catastrophe.

Viewed in this sense, Europe is a kind of model to follow. Fearmongers point to falling birth rates and potential social problems 20-30 years down the road. However, such a gradual reduction in population and footprint on the environment is in my opinion greatly desirable over rapid growth followed by collapse. Europe has an economic and social infrastructure which could enable it to gradually weather the problems caused by an aging population, better than any other continent. On top of this, Europe is also supported by the rest of the world, by virtue of the global system of economic and financial exchange, which should make the transition easier.

As far as the emigration "problem" is concerned, most of the immigrants to Europe are resourceful and often educated individuals. The second and third generations of immigrants will adapt to the European culture, and whatever cultural contribution they bring to the established culture will probably only help the intellectual and cultural life of the continent. In the long run, this will only help make Europe a more diverse and culturally rich continent.

Is the decline in christian values such a large concern after all? Is the rate of crime and social cohesion in Europe really skyrocketing? No, people still maintain many of the christian values which are at the base of society, through education from their parents and through  the secular system of values whcih succeeded it. The only area of life which is affected to a large extent is family planning, which is affected principally by costs such as housing. However, can the world still afford a "have as many children as God wills it" mentality, in an era when child mortality is lower than at any point during the humanity's history? Besides, as population decreases, the cost of housing will decrease as well, to the point where an equilibrium is reached.

So what I'm saying is that while Europe may undergo economic and demographic stagnation, this is actually a good thing.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 20:02
The population in Europe is not declining. It is true that all Europe is facing falling birth rates regardless of the west, centre or east, however the actual population, especially in the west, is growing quite fast. West Europe is facing a phenomenon of falling birth rates (among the natives) combined with fast growing overall populations. If you look at the population of each country and the size of each major city in Europe 10 or 20 years ago and compare it with the populations now, you will notice the growth.
From an ecological point of view, about whose importance I really agree with you Decebal, the most desirable condition is for a population to be able to be sustained by the land they inhabit, and not to be dependent on products imported from other lands. Many west European countries, such as the UK for example, have a growing population already beyond the sustainability of their own lands.
So from an ecological point of view too, it is actually good to control immigration.

It seems I pushed a few buttons of insecurity with my last post in this thread. I was thoroughly entertained by some of the responses.



Edited by omshanti - 16-Apr-2008 at 23:23
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 20:40
Leonardo
Its origin is outside Europe you are right, but after centuries of permanence on European soil it became an European "thing",
 
Religions are generally for humans, not for specific groups only.
Christianity has a long history in Europe, well so does Judaism and Islam so all can be considered European as well according to your logic.
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