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Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?

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Topic: Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?
Posted By: Paul
Subject: Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 03:27
Is Europe the New ‘Dark Continent’?
By Dale Hurd
CBN News Sr. Reporter



http://www.cbn.com/ - CBN.com(CBN News) - When the Gospel went forth from Jerusalem, one of the places it took root was Europe. And Europe became a center of Christian civilization for more than 1,000 years. But there are signs that Europe's Christian era has come to an end.

A big deal was made of the fact that the first draft of the new European Union Constitution did not include a single mention of God. But most Europeans act as if the Christian God of history no longer exists. Although Europeans say they believe in some type of God, church attendance in most European countries is less than five percent.

Less than half of the British public can name any of the four New Testament Gospels. Almost a third of all Dutch no longer know why we have Christmas day.

There is a new dark continentthe land that used to be known as Christian Europe. Today, many of its cathedrals are simply large museum pieces. They are artifacts of an ancient religion, and a dead faith.

Jessica Elgood is an analyst at the British research firm, MORI. She said, "Our polling shows that large proportions of the British public still believe in God concepts of a Christian God. But very few actually practice that faith through an organized religion."

She continued, "Only three percent of the public regularly attend church. And of those three percent, half of those are blackblack Britonswho only make up about five percent of the population."

Richard Miniter lives in Brussels and is a correspondent for The London Sunday Times. He said, "When, as an American in Europe, you tell Europeans that you go to church on Sunday, they look at you like a museum piecesomething strange."

Miniter also said, "There are more practicing Muslims in France than there are baptized Catholics. Out of a nation of more than 60 million Frenchmen, less than four million are baptized Catholics. A generation ago, that just wouldn't have been so."

Near Brussels, at Christian Center, an Assemblies of God church, Belgian Pastor Paul Devos preaches to a culture that no longer believes Christian faith is the answer to anything.

Devos said, "In the United States, people would more quickly turn toward, at least Christ, in general, and Christianity, because it's still somewhat part of the culture, in general. Here in Europe, we have gone beyond that point, and people do not expect anything from religion, apart from some very abstract hope that there is something after this life. [They think] for this life, there is no hope to be found in the church."

Reverend Alan Baker is an American pastor at Christian Center. He said, "Something I hear a lot is an ancient spirit of hopelessness.'"

Baker added, "I've had people tell me, when they come off the plane getting into Belgium, it's as if there are spiritual hands around their throat. They just can't seem to breathe. It's a very heavy, heavy thing, a hopelessness."

It's not just a feeling. While most Americans say they are hopeful about the future, most Europeans in this poll admitted they are literally hopeless.

A poll conducted in 2002 found that while 61 percent of Americans had hope for the future, only 42 percent of U.K. residents had that hope. On the European continent it was even worse, with only 29 percent of the French saying they have hope for the future, and only 15 percent of Germans.

Miniter said, "The loss of faith, in Europe, is like an unseen black star that still has a tremendous gravitational pull. They don't understand why their culture is failing. They don't understand why divorce rates and suicide rates are so high. They don't understand why so few European women have more than one child, and why on most European streets, you see more dogs than children. This is the impact of the death of real Christian belief in Europe."

Yet the European media never tires of mocking America's high church attendance as "something weird," or portraying President Bush's faith as a "weapon of mass destruction."

In a typical comment, written in the Sunday Herald, the writer says President Bush is "under the influence of the crackpot TV evangelism that is so peculiar to America."

European elites are especially worried that Bush prays a lot.

A writer for Britain's The Economist magazine wrote, "To Europeans, religion is the strangest and most disturbing feature about [America]."

European elites worry that "fundamentalists" are "hijacking" the country. They find it extraordinary that three times as many Americans believe in the virgin birth as in evolution.

Elgood said, "I actually think we don't understand it [American Christianity] at all, and it's one of these gaps between our cultures, that actually leaves us scratching our heads at each other. We don't understand it. It hasn't been a part of our life here for 40 years."

When Elgood's firm asked the British to name an 'inspirational' figure, Jesus finished at the bottom.

The Mori poll found that 65 percent of Britons named Nelson Mandela, 14 percent picked Prime Minister Tony Blair, 10 percent said 'none of the above', and six percent said Britney Spears. Astonishingly, only one percent named Jesus Christ as an inspirational figure.

Religion is an especially dirty word in European politics; many European leaders are atheists.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair is not one of them, but during the Iraq war, when Blair wanted to end a televised address to the nation with the words "God Bless You," his aides talked him out of it.

Some analysts say religious differences between America and Europe are reaching the point of driving the two continents apart.

But could Europe be poised for revival?

A licensed Christian broadcaster in the U.K. at Premier Radio, Managing Director Peter Kerridge believes the demise of the church in Europe has been greatly exaggerated.

Kerridge said, "It doesn't matter how many Times headlines there are, saying the church is dead. The truth is, the church will never die."

Kerridge added, "We are seeing some decline, in some branches of the established church and huge growth in other areas of the church.

In London, the black Pentecostal church is exploding. Huge growth. And one of the hopes for the church in the UK is the re-evangelization of England by ethnic minorities. "

But in Europe, evangelization can be tough going.

Devos said, "What I always tell the congregation, our congregation, is that if we want to reach out, it has to go through personal contacts. We cannot go ringing doorbells and going from home to home trying to reach them, because they do not trust us."

Pastor Baker says the hopelessness of many Europeans can be seen in a conversation he had with a successful Belgian businessman.

Baker said, "[The businessman] was trembling, with tears in his eyes, and he said to meliterally face to faceNow pastor, if you believe the Bible is God's word, if you believe it's the message of life and hope, give me one reason, today -- give me one reason to go on living. If you can't do it, I'm taking my life right now. I can't take it anymore! Then he says, 'Don't look at me that way. There's nothing wrong with me. It's not just me, it's my wife, it's my children, it's all our friendswe have nothing to live for'it's all across my nation!"

Though the church buildings still remain, European secularists assumed that Modernism would do away with religion. But secularism has created a spiritual void, a vacuum in Europe that beckons faith to return.

There is a real worry that if Europe tires of this spiritual chaos, then the religion they will turn to is Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe.

 
http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040301a.aspx - http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/News/040301a.aspx
 


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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

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Replies:
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 04:06
I wouldn't mind seeing the Religions of old come back. Think it's possible they can grow to high numbers? Or do you think that people are used to the culture of Christianity and the Abrahamic Religions that it would be far to alien for most people?

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 06:44
One of the worst article read in a long time. The low fertility rate has nothing to do with religion or almost. The price of flats, the availability of pre-schools, etc. are more important.

The Americans are weird when it comes to religion. No later than yesterday, there was a guy singing in front of the local supermarket asking people to pray with him. The same way, amongst amenities listed around my flat #2 after the grocery store was the local church.

Then comes the most important issue, people getting are not going to church because it is BORING. In the US, the sociability of the community is often built around the church. In Europe, where people actually use the streets and the bars etc. there to meet people.

More importantly, no ideas come out of European churches. They repeat the same old things for ever (no condoms, give to the poor, etc.). In the US they are bold enough to have some ideas that create a debate and thus an interest for churches. Moreover, the intellectual Christian elite has pretty much died out in most countries (maybe there are still a few in Italy but that's it). I was shocked to realize that in the readings of the pope, there were so many Jewish authors. The Catholic church seems to have lost its brain power.

Regarding Belgium, CBS should read a little bit. Of course they are hopeless, that is the very core principle of Belgianness.


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I am a free donkey!


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 07:32
Yes, Europe is in the worst point of her entire history. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe owing to immigration. It's mandatory to stop this modern form of islamic invasion.  Muslim immigrants should be expelled or at least their number severely limited.
 
 


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 09:38
Well what hope has left to Europeans? Every time a war comes out it's in Europe, the last two most bloodiest wars were started in here. And yes, most of the churches are now museums because as Maharbbal already wrote: it's boring... but why "The Dark Continent"?

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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 10:04
I have lived in so many countries and continents in the world, and I have to say that my impression of Europe is that it does not seem to be doing well and is in a state of rapid disintegration.
I would not say that the decline of religious belief is the reason however. It is more a symptom (an insignificant symptom in my opinion, since I am not really interested in organized/institutionalized religions) rather than a reason.
In my opinion the reasons are more likely to be financial stresses of survival , bad government, rapid loss of sense of community and continuity due to immigration, ....etc.

The living expense in Europe is becoming higher and higher every year while the average earning is not catching up, the taxes are extremely high (and becoming higher even) while it is not that difficult for people who do not work to get benefits/help making it harder to live honestly and easier if you are tricky.
The rate of immigration is unbelievably high (as high as the rate of the ethnic Han chinese migration into Tibet and the replacement of the ethnic Tibetans by them) and becoming higher and higher every year changing the demography very rapidly, while anybody who shows a concern and expresses an opinion about it is labeled ''racist'' and is silenced by the suffocatingly sensitive political correctness which dominates the atmosphere.
The rapid drop in the level of education and its system, loss of sense of unity, isolation of individuals from each other and the decline in morality combined with fast growing crime-rates,....etc all in my opinion add to the growing sense of hopelessness in Europe, and this dark sense of sorriness and weariness in the air, about the past/history of Europe and anything European, that makes people flock on and idealize non-European beliefs, causes and life-styles such as Yoga, Buddhism, Shamanism....etc more due to their trendy exoticism rather than their true essence. Europeans in Europe are in growing need of somewhere to escape, both physically and mentally, and they are not being offered (or offering themselves) anything in Europe which is their home.

These are the things I have seen and felt so far.
So from my point of view, Europe does not seem to be doing well and is becoming more and more uncomfortable for the Europeans who were its original inhabitants.

By the way this is just an observation, not a judgement.







Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 11:29

I must say Omshanti's post leaves me speechless.

Where in the world are people supposed to be better off than in Europe?



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Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 12:20
Originally posted by gcle2003

Where in the world are people supposed to be better off than in Europe?



He did not said that they are worst, but that the Europeans are in decline of what-ever


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 12:34
Originally posted by Paul

Miniter said, "The loss of faith, in Europe, is like an unseen black star that still has a tremendous gravitational pull. They don't understand why their culture is failing. They don't understand why divorce rates and suicide rates are so high. They don't understand why so few European women have more than one child, and why on most European streets, you see more dogs than children. This is the impact of the death of real Christian belief in Europe."

One of the most stupid things I've ever read. More dogs than children? LOL

Culture is always changing, that is not equal to failing. Some people seem to have problems realising that.



Originally posted by omshanti

..., that makes people flock on and idealize non-European beliefs and life-styles such as Yoga, Buddhism, Shamanism....

Christianity is non-European to start with, so if you think it's negative people practice yoga you must think it's a really good thing that Christianity is becoming less popular as well. Right?


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 12:54
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Christianity is non-European to start with,
 
 
Its origin is outside Europe you are right, but after centuries of permanence on European soil it became an European "thing", Roman catholicism for example was the principal heir of the falling Western Roman Empire and it gave for centuries, to Western Europe at least, a particular form of civilization which for good and evil can be considered only as "European".
 
 
 


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 12:58
Hmm... A non Christian Europe... How many wars have we started in the last fifty years?

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Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 13:00
Originally posted by Parnell

How many wars have we started in the last fifty years?


The war in the Balkans were in Europe...a war in Europe LOL


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 13:13
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Christianity is non-European to start with,
 
 
Its origin is outside Europe you are right, but after centuries of permanence on European soil it became an European "thing", Roman catholicism for example was the principal heir of the falling Western Roman Empire and it gave for centuries, to Western Europe at least, a particular form of civilization which for good and evil can be considered only as "European".
 

Well, so if Europeans would embrace Islam and make it their own, what would be the difference? Why are people - and especially the article author, as it seems - worried about that, since it's basicly what happened when Christianity came?


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 13:35
Originally posted by Leonardo

Yes, Europe is in the worst point of her entire history. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe owing to immigration. It's mandatory to stop this modern form of islamic invasion.  Muslim immigrants should be expelled or at least their number severely limited.
 
 
But Why?
Why are you so scared? why are you so phobic,i dont get it,this is incredible phobia.
 
Islamic invasion? Brink some credible numbers please,real statistics please,stop reading populist media.
Why should muslim Imigrants be expelled or their numbers severely limited?
 
This is racist.And if you dont get it,is because you are racist.
 
Is the same as for me sain that being a white Europian i want Black people expelled from Europe,or at least their number severely cut.
And i want dark people expelled aswell,which would make about half of Italy's and Spain's and mediterranian europe population,i want all Chinesee and asian looking people expelled etc.also i want pale skin people expelled aswell,such as most British and Scandinavians.
 
I also want all other practising religion expelled exept Paganism,which served us europians so well before Christianity came over,and on this one i insist more,since paganism served us so well before Christianity brought racism,discrimination,nationlaism,and all negative aspects of human life in the continent.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 13:38
Demographics always change with time,and ther is nothing to be phobiac for that,what matters is principles.
I dont care if my country gets full of muslims,or hindus,or blacks,as long as there is a law to protect the freedoms of everybody.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 13:45
heroi he thinks of an Islamic invasion probably because many of them search work in Europe... a good example of the "Islamic invasion" is Germany 3.5 millions of them: of course, this is a small number because there are 60 millions Christians, but the growing rate of Christians is smaller, so probably in time Islam will prevail... and I as well do not get why they should be expelled... 

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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:05
Originally posted by omshanti

I have lived in so many countries and continents in the world, and I have to say that my impression of Europe is that it does not seem to be doing well and is in a state of rapid disintegration.
 (Europe for your information is in a state of rapid integration and unity,and most europians are resisting integration and not disintergration,look at populist media is all against a bigger,stronger Europian union,but thanks god,it is on a predestined path of unity and brotherhood of peoples and nations)
I would not say that the decline of religious belief is the reason however. It is more a symptom rather than a reason. (the only symptoms of the decline of religious beliefs are the increasing freedoms of the people of Europe,where state was capable of pushing laws that guaranty the live and let live principle for milions of unfortunate citicens singled out by the fanatic religios beliefs,such as the single mothers,the divorced,and lets not talk about Gays,Black imigrants etc)
In my opinion the reasons are more likely to be financial stresses of survival , bad government, rapid loss of sense of community due to immigration, ....etc. (financial stress of survival is not a new thing in the world,but the financial situation is now better in europe then anywhere else in the world,imigration is not so big in europe,it is mostly exagerated,find the real statistics,and the biggest number of imigrants in western europe are from europe itself,from the east,the next generation of this people will be so integrated that will be virtually the same as the indigenious,with no differences whatsoever)

The living expense in Europe is becoming higher and higher every year while the average earning is not catching up, the taxes are extremely high (and becoming higher even) while it is not that difficult for people who do not work to get benefits/help making it harder to live honestly and easier if you are tricky. (as i told you europe remains the best place in the world to live economicaly)
The rate of immigration is unbelievably high (as high as the rate of the ethnic Han chinese migration into Tibet and the replacement of the ethnic Tibetans by them) and becoming higher and higher every year changing the demography very rapidly, while anybody who shows a concern and expresses an opinion about it is labeled ''racist'' and is silenced by the suffocatingly sensitive political correctness which dominates the atmosphere.(as i said the idea that imigration is unbelivebly high is exagerated and ridicolous,there have always been imigration and demographic changes through history ,there is nothing to be phobiac about it,unless you actually are racist,what matters is that government and the state guaranty the right of everybody to live in freedom
The rapid drop in the level of education and its system, loss of sense of unity, isolation of individuals from each other and the decline in morality combined with fast growing crime-rates,....etc all in my opinion add to the growing sense of hopelessness in Europe, and this dark sense of sorriness and weariness in the air, about the past/history of Europe and anything European, that makes people flock on and idealize non-European beliefs, causes and life-styles such as Yoga, Buddhism, Shamanism....etc more due to their trendy exoticism rather than their true essence. Europeans in Europe are in growing need of somewhere to escape, both physically and mentally, and they are not being offered (or offering themselves) anything in Europe which is their home. (This all are problems that have and will face any people on the world,crime,sense of unity,morality,but europe has the best tools to deal with this,the best Police,the best Judiciary system,a democratic system,the best qualified academics,and is doing better then the rest.As for Yoga,Budhism,Shamanism etc it means that it is an open society where everybody is free to chose how to live its life acording to his individuality,it would be an issue if it was an masive conversion to this sects,but is not,and even if it was ,or if it is,whats wrong with that?as long as is an free choise of the majority?)

These are the things I have seen and felt so far.
So from my point of view, Europe does not seem to be doing well and becoming more and more uncomfortable for the Europeans who were its original inhabitants. Europians are still the inhabitants,they did not go anywhere and ceirtanly have not been overwhelmed by any other people or by any extraterrestial people.

By the way this is just an observation, not a judgement.
 
Not a very well thought observation i am afraid.





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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:13
Originally posted by Illirac

heroi he thinks of an Islamic invasion probably because many of them search work in Europe... a good example of the "Islamic invasion" is Germany 3.5 millions of them: of course, this is a small number because there are 60 millions Christians, but the growing rate of Christians is smaller, so probably in time Islam will prevail... and I as well do not get why they should be expelled... 
 
Ok perhaps that would be a problem for few religios fanatics,and few racist who are afraid of 3 milion people in a country of 80 milion.This 3 milion anyway in the next 50 years will be so integrated in German society that they will be invisible,even now many of them have their kids with one German parent.
 
But to talk about all of europe its ridicolous,the imigrants from other continents would barely make 2%.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:14
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Christianity is non-European to start with,
 
 
Its origin is outside Europe you are right, but after centuries of permanence on European soil it became an European "thing", Roman catholicism for example was the principal heir of the falling Western Roman Empire and it gave for centuries, to Western Europe at least, a particular form of civilization which for good and evil can be considered only as "European".
 

Well, so if Europeans would embrace Islam and make it their own, what would be the difference? Why are people - and especially the article author, as it seems - worried about that, since it's basicly what happened when Christianity came?
 
 
Really there are lots of difference ... just a sample, Christianisty was born inside Roman Empire and from the beginning it was inside the Greek-Roman Ecoumene. Islam was always something coming from outside. Christianism had centuries for adapting itself to European mores, Islam was always the historical enemy of the heirs of Roman Empire, that is  Roman Catholicim for the West and Greek-Roman Orthodoxy for the East. Islam occupied the border lands of Europe and never touched the mainland, the core of Europe, and it was always perceived as something alien by true European peoples, and so on ...
 
 
 


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:15

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...


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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:20
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic (the problem is Loyalist and Republicans instead)
Basque: Very Catholic (so is Spain,i dont get your point)
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious(not true,the bigest war fought in the Balkans was between Serbia and Croatia,two Christian States,and problems in the Balkans were ethnic,and not religios) 
...


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:24
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

[QUOTE=Leonardo][QUOTE=Styrbiorn] Christianity is non-European to start with,
  
 
Really there are lots of difference ... just a sample, Christianisty was born inside Roman Empire and from the beginning it was inside the Greek-Roman Ecoumene. Islam was always something coming from outside. Christianism had centuries for adapting itself to European mores, Islam was always the historical enemy of the heirs of Roman Empire, that is  Roman Catholicim for the West and Greek-Roman Orthodoxy for the East. Islam occupied the border lands of Europe and never touched the mainland, the core of Europe, and it was always perceived as something alien by true European peoples, and so on ...
 
 
 
 
First of all,Rome was not Europian,it was an Empire more on Africa and middle east then lets say,Britain,Scandinavia,and eastern Europe.
 
And second acording to you,who are suposed to be the TRUE EUROPIAN PEOPLES?
 
Dont make me lough.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:25
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
 
The real threat is not islamic religion per se but demography. The fate of Kosovo is the future of Europe too if we don't stop immigration from muslim lands.
 
 


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:29
Originally posted by Leonardo

Yes, Europe is in the worst point of her entire history. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe owing to immigration. It's mandatory to stop this modern form of islamic invasion.  Muslim immigrants should be expelled or at least their number severely limited.
 

 


Europe is in the worst point of her entire history   !!


what about that period of time which European call Dark Ages? oh what about the times before that?

and what invasion are you refereeing to? immigration is now an invasion????? then what do you call what European and Western countries were/are doing in the past 200 years??




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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:30
he bigest war fought in the Balkans was between Serbia and Croatia,two Christian States,and problems in the Balkans were ethnic,and not religios

The only big difference between Serbs and Croats is that Serbs are orthodox and croats catholic.

You could just as well claim that the 15th and 16th century were not religious, because all parties involved were Christian.


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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:37
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
 
The real threat is not islamic religion per se but demography. The fate of Kosovo is the future of Europe too if we don't stop immigration from muslim lands.
 
 
 
Man seriously are you ok?  Kosovans are imigrants from muslim Lands?And what about Christian Kosovans what are they?And what fate ?i think is your ignorance speaking here.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:38
There are people who argue we are under some sort of Islamic invasion due to immigration. Most of us don't buy into that right wing conspiracy mumbo jumbo.
 
My point was, rather tongue-in-cheekly, that the countries who have had troubles have had religious populations. My point thus being, that religious people tend to 'lose the head' more easily and more often than secular people. Again, I was being tongue in cheek.


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Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:39
lEONARDO.   Answer my questions if you have any point to prove in this debate,otherwise i would think you are ither an racist or you are not who you think you are and have come here with a chip on your shoulder.
 
With what you have said so far ,if i was an moderator in this forum i would have kicked you out, because you are racist.yes i am acusing you,you ARE RACIST.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:45
Europe is becoming more and more a asshole


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:45
 (Europe for your information is in a state of rapid integration and unity,and most europians are resisting integration and not disintergration,look at populist media is all against a bigger,stronger Europian union,but thanks god,it is on a predestined path of unity and brotherhood of peoples and nations)
 (the only symptoms of the decline of religious beliefs are the increasing freedoms of the people of Europe,where state was capable of pushing laws that guaranty the live and let live principle for milions of unfortunate citicens singled out by the fanatic religios beliefs,such as the single mothers,the divorced,and lets not talk about Gays,Black imigrants etc)
 (financial stress of survival is not a new thing in the world,but the financial situation is now better in europe then anywhere else in the world,imigration is not so big in europe,it is mostly exagerated,find the real statistics,and the biggest number of imigrants in western europe are from europe itself,from the east,the next generation of this people will be so integrated that will be virtually the same as the indigenious,with no differences whatsoever)
 (as i told you europe remains the best place in the world to live economicaly)
(as i said the idea that imigration is unbelivebly high is exagerated and ridicolous,there have always been imigration and demographic changes through history ,there is nothing to be phobiac about it,unless you actually are racist,what matters is that government and the state guaranty the right of everybody to live in freedom
(This all are problems that have and will face any people on the world,crime,sense of unity,morality,but europe has the best tools to deal with this,the best Police,the best Judiciary system,a democratic system,the best qualified academics,and is doing better then the rest.As for Yoga,Budhism,Shamanism etc it means that it is an open society where everybody is free to chose how to live its life acording to his individuality,it would be an issue if it was an masive conversion to this sects,but is not,and even if it was ,or if it is,whats wrong with that?as long as is an free choise of the majority?)

Europians are still the inhabitants,they did not go anywhere and ceirtanly have not been overwhelmed by any other people or by any extraterrestial people.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:47
Originally posted by Leonardo

Europe is becoming more and more a asshole
No Europe is a body,and as such it ceirtanly has an asshole as well.Europes ass hole consists of its religios fanatics,racists,and Fashists.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 14:48
Originally posted by Leonardo

Europe is becoming more and more a asshole


then get out of it before you become like it.




HEROI   dont wast your time with him, its obvious he has nothing to say in relation to the replays.

and about his discrimination, this will be discussed in the Mods room.




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Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:01
Originally posted by HEROI

lEONARDO.   Answer my questions if you have any point to prove in this debate,otherwise i would think you are ither an racist or you are not who you think you are and have come here with a chip on your shoulder.
 
With what you have said so far ,if i was an moderator in this forum i would have kicked you out, because you are racist.yes i am acusing you,you ARE RACIST.
 
 
You want an answer ...
 
From wikipedia:
 

Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have the largest population growth in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-66 - [67] The people’s growth rate in Kosovo is 1.3%. Over an 82-year period (1921-2003) the population grew 4.6 times. If growth continues at such a pace, based on some estimations, the population will be 4.5 million by 2050. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-67 - [68]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II-1968 - 1948 to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#1989-1999:_Centralized_Yugoslav_Control - 1991 period, Serb population on Kosovo incresed for 12% (3 times less than in Serbia), while Albanian population increased for 300% in the same time period.

 
 
This says it all


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:07
Other interesting stuff
 
 
 
 
Why Europe chooses extinction
By Spengler

Demographics is destiny. Never in recorded history have prosperous and peaceful nations chosen to disappear from the face of the earth. Yet that is what the Europeans have chosen to do. Back in 1348 Europe suffered the Black Death, a combination of bubonic plague and likely a form of mad cow disease, observes American Enterprise Institute scholar Ben Wattenberg. "The plague reduced the estimated European population by about a third. In the next 50 years, Europe's population will relive - in slow motion - that plague demography, losing about a fifth of its population by 2050 and more as the decades roll on."

In 200 years, French and German will be spoken exclusively in hell. What has brought about this collective suicide, which mocks all we thought we knew about the instinct for self-preservation? The chattering classes have nothing to say about the most unique and significant change in our times. Yet the great political and economic shifts of modern times are demographic in origin. Three examples suffice:

1) The great trans-Atlantic rift. Europeans are pacifists, not merely in the Persian Gulf, but on their own Balkans doorstep. If they cannot be bothered to reproduce, why should any European soldier sacrifice himself for future generations that never will be born?

2) The shift in global capital flows to the United States: old people lend money to young people. The aging populations of Europe and Japan lend money to younger people in the US.

3) The deflation danger. To illustrate, an economist of my acquaintance proposes a thought experiment. Suppose by a magic spell all the inhabitants of the United Kingdom instantaneously aged by 30 years. What would be the effect on the current account balance, the rate of interest, the price level and the exchange rate? (Answer at the end of this essay).

Little enough has been said about the "how" but almost nothing about the "why" of Europe's demographic suicide. Suicidal behavior is common among (for example) stone-age tribes who have encountered the modern world. One can extend this example to Tamil or Arab suicide bombers (See Live and Let Die, Asia Times Online, April 13, 2002). But the Europeans are the modern world. Have the Europeans taken to heart existentialism's complaint that man is alone in a chaotic universe in which life has no ultimate meaning, and that man responds to the anxiety about death by embracing death?

Detest as I might the whole existentialist tribe, there is a grain of truth here, and it bears on a parallel development, that is, the death of European Christianity. Fifty-three percent of Americans say that religion is very important in their lives, compared with 16 percent, 14 percent and 13 percent respectively of the British, French and Germans, according to a 1997 University of Michigan survey. Here I draw on the German-Jewish theologian Franz Rosenzweig (1886-1929), an existentialist of sorts. Few Asians (including Jews) can make sense of Christianity's core doctrine, namely, original sin, handed down to all humans from Adam and Eve. Original sin motivates God's self-sacrifice on the cross to remove this stain from mankind; without it, Jesus was just an itinerant preacher with a knack for anecdotes.

All religion, Rosenzweig argued, responds to man's anxiety in the face of death (against which philosophy is like a child stuffing his fingers in his ears and shouting, "I can't hear you!"). The pagans of old faced death with the confidence that their race would continue. But tribes and nations anticipate their own extinction just as individuals anticipate their own death, he added: "The love of the nations for their own nationhood is sweet and pregnant with the presentiment of death." Each nation, he wrote, knows that some day other peoples will occupy their lands, and their language and culture will be interred in dusty books.

The early Christian Church encountered a great extinction of peoples and their cultures through the rise and fall of the Alexandrine and Roman empires. Who now remembers the Lusitani, the Illyrians, the Sicani, the Quadians, Sarmatians, Alans, Gepidians, Herulians, Pannonians and a thousand other tribes of Roman times? As nations faced extinction, individuals within these nations came face to face with their own mortality. Christianity offered an answer: the Church called individuals out of the nations and offered them salvation in the form of a life beyond the grave. The Gentiles (as the Church called them) embraced original sin, which to them simply meant the sin of having been born Gentile, that is, to a culture doomed to extinction. (The Jews, who think of themselves as an eternal people, were having none of it).

In one respect, Christianity was an enormous success. Its original heartland in the Near East, Asia Minor and Greece fell to Islam, but even while Arabs rode victorious over St Paul's missionary trail, the Church converted the barbarians of Europe. Christianity made possible the assimilation of thousands of doomed tribes into what became European nations. Something similar is at work in Africa, the only place in the world where Christianity enjoys rapid growth. Yet Christianity's weakness, Rosenzweig added, lay in the devil's bargain it made with the old paganism. Christianity's salvation lay beyond the grave, in the wispy ether of heavenly reward. Humans require something to hang on to this side of the grave. By providing the pagans with a humanized God (and a humanized mother of God and a host of saints), Christianity allowed the pagans to continue to worship their own image. Germans worship a blond Jesus, Spaniards worship a dark-haired Jesus, Mexicans worship the dark Virgin of Guadalupe, and so forth. The result, wrote Rosenzweig, is that Christians "are forever torn between Jesus and [the medieval pagan hero] Siegfried".

At the political level, Christianity sought to suppress Siegfried in favor of Christ through the device of the universal empire, the suppression of nationality by the aristocracy and Church. The lid kept blowing off the pot. Just when the Habsburgs brought the universal empire to its peak of power in 1519 under Charles V, controlling Austria, Spain and the Netherlands, Germany revolted under the banner of Reformation. There followed a century and a half of religious wars, culminating in the Thirty Years War (1618-1648) that wiped out more than half the population of Central Europe. France under Cardinal Richilieu (See The Sacred Heart of Darkness, Asia Times Online, February 11, 2003) gave a fatal twist to the Christian idea. Instead of universal empire, the French nation would be the standard-bearer for Christendom, such that French national interests stood in place of divine providence.

All Europe caught the French disease, substituting the warrior Siegfried for the crucified God. Christianity's inner pagan ran amok. A second Thirty Years War (1914-1944) gave unlimited vent to Europe's pagan impulses and drowned them in blood. The unfortunate Rosenzweig, who saw the faultlines in Christian civilization so clearly, died hoping that Europe still would embrace its Jewish population as a counterweight against its destructive pagan self. It never occurred to him that Europe would choose destruction and take its Jews with it. Siegfried triumphed over Christ during World War I. No shred of credibility was left in the Christian idea of souls called out of the nations for salvation beyond the grave. In 1914 Europe's soldiers still fought under the illusion of a God that favored their nation. Germany fought World War II under the banner of revived paganism.

For today's Europeans, there is no consolation, neither the old pagan continuity of national culture, nor the Christian continuity into the hereafter. The French know that Victor Hugo, Gauloise cigarettes, Chateau Lafitte and Impressionist painters one day will become a matter of antiquarian curiosity. The Germans know that no one but bored schoolboys will read Goethe two centuries hence, like Pindar. They have no ambition but to die quietly, no concerns except for those amusements which might reduce boredom and anxiety en route to the grave. They have no passions except hatred born of envy. They hate America, a new kind of universality that succeeded where the old Christian empire failed. They hate Israel, which makes the Jewish people appear all the more eternal in stark contrast to Europe's morbid temporality. They will pass out of history unmourned even by themselves.

[Solution to the thought-experiment above: if the entire population of the UK instantaneously ages 30 years, it will spend less and save more for retirement. That is, demand will shift from present goods to future goods, that is, securities. The price level of present goods falls. The price of future goods rises, that is, the compensation for waiting for the future declines, and the rate of interest falls. The suddenly-aged population trades surplus present goods for future goods, that is, exports goods and purchases securities with the proceeds, shifting the current account balance to surplus. The exchange rate will rise. In other words, we have Japan.]



http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ED08Aa01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ED08Aa01.html


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:43
Hello toyou all
 
Sorry to dissappoint those peole who talk about an Islamic invasion but numbers just don't add up, muslims are just as integrated in the society as any other different group and here are some numbers from France:
 
only 20% of french muslims pray at all and 70% fast (days are short now but when it is 20 hours long I will be surprised that even 7% fast).
 
Illigetimacy rate is 18% and cohabitation without marriage is 20% compared with around 40% with mainstream Fench.
 
Only 2% of women wear hijab (the hijab law was designed to ban exactly 237 muslim girl out of a school population of 420 thousand).
 
Now like it or not, this is the reality of muslims in France and in Britain and Germany, the numbers aren't that different. So any notion that muslims are "different" than mainstream europeans is BS. the only thing they are differnt is that they are much poorer and more negelected, especially in France, than indiginous population.
 
AL-Jassas
 


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:52
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by HEROI

lEONARDO.   Answer my questions if you have any point to prove in this debate,otherwise i would think you are ither an racist or you are not who you think you are and have come here with a chip on your shoulder.
 
With what you have said so far ,if i was an moderator in this forum i would have kicked you out, because you are racist.yes i am acusing you,you ARE RACIST.
 
 
You want an answer ...
 
From wikipedia:
 

Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have the largest population growth in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-66 - [67] The people’s growth rate in Kosovo is 1.3%. Over an 82-year period (1921-2003) the population grew 4.6 times. If growth continues at such a pace, based on some estimations, the population will be 4.5 million by 2050. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-67 - [68]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II-1968 - 1948 to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#1989-1999:_Centralized_Yugoslav_Control - 1991 period, Serb population on Kosovo incresed for 12% (3 times less than in Serbia), while Albanian population increased for 300% in the same time period.

 
 
This says it all
I have directed to you 3 or 4 questions but you choose to ansewer only this one.Fine.
 
Dont forget that the growth is Albanian and not Muslim Growth.Albanians in Kosovo have grown the same wether Muslim or Christian.So your stupid theory goes down.It was not part of the debate but since you brought i8t foward i give you an answer.
And my question was not about demographic growth but about imigration from muslim lands.Yes you are RACIST.Or you are some dark skined Italian who is finding comfort in your religion.shame on you.You should be ashamed of yourself.


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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:54
Answer the question i have put foward and answer them straight.In fact you should pout you head down in shame and not apear in this forum no more,if you dont get kicked out.

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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 15:57
The problem with you as with all racist people is that they are are mentally sick.They have no personal achivement to be proud of,and find comfort in belonging to a particular groop of people,choosing a strong one at that,since they are normally cowards by nature.

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Me pune,me perpjekje.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:23
Originally posted by HEROI

Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by HEROI

lEONARDO.   Answer my questions if you have any point to prove in this debate,otherwise i would think you are ither an racist or you are not who you think you are and have come here with a chip on your shoulder.
 
With what you have said so far ,if i was an moderator in this forum i would have kicked you out, because you are racist.yes i am acusing you,you ARE RACIST.
 
 
You want an answer ...
 
From wikipedia:
 

Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have the largest population growth in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-66 - [67] The people’s growth rate in Kosovo is 1.3%. Over an 82-year period (1921-2003) the population grew 4.6 times. If growth continues at such a pace, based on some estimations, the population will be 4.5 million by 2050. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kossovo#cite_note-67 - [68]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#World_War_II-1968 - 1948 to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#1989-1999:_Centralized_Yugoslav_Control - 1991 period, Serb population on Kosovo incresed for 12% (3 times less than in Serbia), while Albanian population increased for 300% in the same time period.

 
 
This says it all
I have directed to you 3 or 4 questions but you choose to ansewer only this one.Fine.
 
Dont forget that the growth is Albanian and not Muslim Growth.Albanians in Kosovo have grown the same wether Muslim or Christian.So your stupid theory goes down.It was not part of the debate but since you brought i8t foward i give you an answer.
And my question was not about demographic growth but about imigration from muslim lands.Yes you are RACIST.Or you are some dark skined Italian who is finding comfort in your religion.shame on you.You should be ashamed of yourself.
 
 
This is the second time you accuse me to be a racist, whatever this means ... I'm not not a political-correctness worshipper so I don't care ...
 
About Kosovo, it was only an example in which immigration is not the principal issue but demographic divide between two ethnicities is the fundamental issue and infact immigration from muslims lands is a threat to European ethnicities owing to their differential growth causing demographic divide. It would be the same thing if immigrants from whatever other background had greater birth rates but it's people from muslim background who actually have the gretest birth rates in the world.
 
 
P.S. As I've already said other times I'm not religious and I'm not a "dark skinned" Italian too LOL
 


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:30
Originally posted by Leonardo

 The real threat is not islamic religion per se but demography. The fate of Kosovo is the future of Europe too if we don't stop immigration from muslim lands.
 


Why are the Muslims so bad? In fact they are even more tolerant then Christians (in whole of history- example Jerusalem when conquered by crusaders and when by Muslims)...they will integrate; yes their roots will remain what they are, so what?
So you are afraid that Europe will be like Kosovo?...bah


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:33
Originally posted by Leonardo

 
This is the second time you accuse me to be a racist, whatever this means ... I'm not not a political-correctness worshipper so I don't care ...
 
About Kosovo, it was only an example in which immigration is not the principal issue but demographic divide between two ethnicities is the fundamental issue and in fact immigration from muslims lands is a threat to European ethnicities owing to their differential growth causing demographic divide. It would be the same thing if immigrants from whatever other background had greater birth rates but it's people from muslim background who actually have the gretest birth rates in the world.
 

hmmm...then instead of stopping the "Muslim invasion" you should encourage other ethnicities growth, and there will be no more trouble (for you, for I do not know who else consider this as a problem)


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:35
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Leonardo

Europe is becoming more and more a asshole


then get out of it before you become like it.




HEROI   dont wast your time with him, its obvious he has nothing to say in relation to the replays.



I do not know for Heroi but I like to discuss with whoever-he-may-be Smile
And it seems that he likes that too Wink (maybe I am wrong)


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 16:55
Originally posted by Illirac

Originally posted by Leonardo

 
This is the second time you accuse me to be a racist, whatever this means ... I'm not not a political-correctness worshipper so I don't care ...
 
About Kosovo, it was only an example in which immigration is not the principal issue but demographic divide between two ethnicities is the fundamental issue and in fact immigration from muslims lands is a threat to European ethnicities owing to their differential growth causing demographic divide. It would be the same thing if immigrants from whatever other background had greater birth rates but it's people from muslim background who actually have the gretest birth rates in the world.
 

hmmm...then instead of stopping the "Muslim invasion" you should encourage other ethnicities growth, and there will be no more trouble (for you, for I do not know who else consider this as a problem)
 
 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 
 
 


Posted By: Illirac
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:02
Originally posted by Leonardo

 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 


Nor can you stop this invasion of yours
And still i fail to understand why "Dark continent"? Is it so bad that religion is "going down"


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For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:09
Originally posted by Illirac

Originally posted by Leonardo

 
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...
 


Nor can you stop this invasion of yours
And still i fail to understand why "Dark continent"? Is it so bad that religion is "going down"
 
 
Maybe "religion going down" is only a sympton ot a fatal sickness.
Have you read the article I have posted before?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ED08Aa01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/front_page/ED08Aa01.html
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 17:50
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:12
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos
 
I'm not sure whether you're talking about the IRA bombings in London or the more recent ones. Both however were fundamentally religious in origin.
 
There haven't been any non-religious terrorist bombings in London since the late 19th century as far as I'm aware.
 
Personally I myself count Soviet Communism as a religion, but since I'm aware I'm in a minority there I'll grant you the rest.


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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:31
I fail to see why this thead does not stay on topic. The opening post talks about the lack of relgiosity amoung Europeans. The article given shows fear of fundamentalism among Christians. Only one line was given to Islam and that was at the end where the writer says that Europeans may fill their void with Islam. I must disagree with that writer too. Europeans have a rich culture and rich Christian traditions. An interest to turn back to Christianity would be stonger than being a muslim no matter how great or small the number of muslims living there.
 
 Instead of discussing the effects of secularism on the religious practices among Europeans we have a little bit of muslim bashing going on again. I need to remind members to stick with the topic and not voice your personal fears in this thread. Go to one of the other threads in existance at Intellectual Discussions or Philosopy and Theology to voice them.  


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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 20:33
Originally posted by HEROI

Why should muslim Imigrants be expelled or their numbers severely limited?
 
This is racist.And if you dont get it,is because you are racist.
 
Is the same as for me sain that being a white Europian i want Black people expelled from Europe,or at least their number severely cut.
 
 
Immigrants from Nigeria are among welthiest community in the UK -- they usually get good education and well payed jobs.
I do not think muslims should be expelled but I do believe that European states should change immigration laws in order to allow immigration of only those people who will work rather than live in council houses and get council benefits. This does not mean educated people but hard working people. I am not sure how these criterias can be achieved though.  


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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 21:47
Originally posted by Leonardo

Yes, Europe is in the worst point of her entire history. Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe owing to immigration. It's mandatory to stop this modern form of islamic invasion.  Muslim immigrants should be expelled or at least their number severely limited.


Nonsense, Europe, especially the west, is doing better than ever before. I certainly wouldn't prefer living in the Europe of 100 years ago, 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago unless I was exceptionally rich and healthy. If this is a low point, well then there never was a
high point. Unless of course by high point one means that the European elite can conquer,
enslave and exploit other peoples - but that's not what we wish for, or is it? Shocked 

"Muslim" immigration does not hurt Europe, in fact any kind of immigration serves only to
sustain the continued financial growth of the EU, whose combined economy is larger than
that of the US. The reasons why some non-western immigrants contribute to increased crime are social and economic, they cannot be
attributed to any religious or ethnic identity. Sometimes I wonder if what people really fear from non-western immigration is the loss of racial purity, and that's not something we should bring with us into the future in any case.


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Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:26
Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Actually in Pais Basco religion is not important in the conflict. ETA is a communist organization. I agree religion is important in Balkans and N Ireland though I doubt it is a main reason of problems. There are also spcial and nationalist issues that matters.


Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:33
I wish other continents to have such troubles as Europe has and to be in a such a bad shape.
Still it's the best continent to live and this is what matters, not some polls or falling demographics statistics. 


Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 22:33
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
Define "troubles," Parnell. If you mean violence, then I must note that you left out the riots in France several years ago, the bombings in London, and the depridations of the various communist regimes,  for starters. That said, I am compelled to note that "troubles" is a term that could be used to describe a broad array of societal phenomena (rising crime, falling birthrates, disenchantment, etc.).
 
-Akolouthos
 
I'm not sure whether you're talking about the IRA bombings in London or the more recent ones. Both however were fundamentally religious in origin.
 
There haven't been any non-religious terrorist bombings in London since the late 19th century as far as I'm aware.
 
Personally I myself count Soviet Communism as a religion, but since I'm aware I'm in a minority there I'll grant you the rest.
 
I was speaking of the more recent bombings in 2005 (July, wasn't it?). And yes, they were religious in origin, but that wasn't my point. My point was that the generalization was a silly one. Your point on communism is taken and appreciated; I think it serves to point out that we often overstate the degree of difference between religious adherents and faithful adherents of other stringent ideologies. We also have a tendency, when we adopt this sort of mindset -- dare I call it an ideology? -- to view only one side of the coin when it comes to "troubles", for many things could be classified in this category. Such a mindset leads to ideologically motivated, false generalizations, such as the one I was addressing. The issue is nowhere near simple enough to make the claim that "only the religious parts of Europe have troubles," nor even that "it is mostly the religious parts of Europe that have troubles," at least not in this context.
 
The implicit point of the generalization is that religious is the cause of, or at least an intrinsic contributing factor in, these troubles, and that secularism is a cause for their resolution, or at least does not exacerbate them. As we may obviously see from history, the adoption and implementation of any ideology is fraught with "troubles", even when its adherents are well meaning. Whether this is because the ideology itself is intrinsically flawed (communism), or because it is overblown (secularism and materialism, for proper secular values can be a source of ethical and moral strength, and material goods are not, in and of themselves, evil),or again because there are those who would corrupt it (Christianity, although I'm sure we disagree a bit with regard to specifics here), there will always be difficulty here on Earth.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2008 at 23:27
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic
Basque: Very Catholic
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious
 
...
 
 
The real threat is not islamic religion per se but demography. The fate of Kosovo is the future of Europe too if we don't stop immigration from muslim lands.
 
 
 
To start off; what exactly does Kosovo have to do with the lack of spirituallity in Europe? Furthermore, Kosovo is not a simple demographics case; nor a religious case. Kosovo seperated due to US interests among the 99 war and its aftereffects.
 
It is not Islamic immigration; Albanians as I have stated in another thread lived in that region as it is for centuries as did Serbs. While I am not a supporter of the Kosovo Indpendence movement; I am able to realize that both have claims in the region. Islam has never had a thing to do with it, Albanians have a high esteem to the Albanian ethnic background first. That is why most Albanians get along well inbetween each other, much more so than other multi religious ethnicities in the Balkans. Thus; no matter the religion (Kosovo is a prime example of secularism too, as are most of the Balkans in the last 20 years) Albanians would have wanted to be seperated. It was a case of ethnic clashing not of religious divides.
 
Stoping non-Christian immigration won't do a thing; a spiritual movement by the varoius churches will do more if you deem spirituallity to be a priority.
 
 


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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 07:12
Unfortunely demography is not so a simple matter, you can't change birth rates simply by your will ...


Tell that to the People's Republic of China....




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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 12:27
Originally posted by HEROI

Originally posted by Parnell

I don't think its a coincidence that any parts of Europe that have had troubles in the last fifty years have had very religious communities:

Northern Ireland: Protestant and Catholic (the problem is Loyalist and Republicans instead)
Basque: Very Catholic (so is Spain,i dont get your point)
Balkans: Lots of Christian denominations and Muslims, all quite religious(not true,the bigest war fought in the Balkans was between Serbia and Croatia,two Christian States,and problems in the Balkans were ethnic,and not religios) 
...
 
In Northern Ireland the ones causing the trouble (which is a minority on both sides) are religiously divided. The whole partition of Ireland arose from religious differences, specifically the northern fear of Roman Catholic domination. Without that Ireland would have had Home Rule and later independence for the whole island from 1914 onward.
 
I agree about the Basques - I don't understand the point about them.
 
Serbia and Croatia are both Christian states (on the whole) but the first is Orthodox and the second Roman Catholic.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 12:39
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Your point on communism is taken and appreciated; I think it serves to point out that we often overstate the degree of difference between religious adherents and faithful adherents of other stringent ideologies. We also have a tendency, when we adopt this sort of mindset -- dare I call it an ideology? -- to view only one side of the coin when it comes to "troubles", for many things could be classified in this category. Such a mindset leads to ideologically motivated, false generalizations, such as the one I was addressing. The issue is nowhere near simple enough to make the claim that "only the religious parts of Europe have troubles," nor even that "it is mostly the religious parts of Europe that have troubles," at least not in this context.
 
The implicit point of the generalization is that religious is the cause of, or at least an intrinsic contributing factor in, these troubles, and that secularism is a cause for their resolution, or at least does not exacerbate them. As we may obviously see from history, the adoption and implementation of any ideology is fraught with "troubles", even when its adherents are well meaning. Whether this is because the ideology itself is intrinsically flawed (communism), or because it is overblown (secularism and materialism, for proper secular values can be a source of ethical and moral strength, and material goods are not, in and of themselves, evil),or again because there are those who would corrupt it (Christianity, although I'm sure we disagree a bit with regard to specifics here), there will always be difficulty here on Earth.
 
-Akolouthos
 
The causes of these troubles don't lie in religion or ideology or ethnicity or race. The causes lie in people, in particular people with personal political ambitions and power hunger, and especially ones who feel deprived of their rightful (in their eyes) power, or access to power, under the existing socio-political order. (cf bin Laden with regard to the political situation in Saudi Arabia: in a democratic Saudi Arabia I suspect bin Laden would have run for president as a reformer and probably won).
 
Religion, ideology, ethnicity then for them make handy excuses for political, frequently violent, action, and, sadly, they provide excellent motivators for their followers, in particular the ones who are themselves psychologically frustrated.
 
Violent terrorists, were their overt cause not to exist, would simply choose another one.
 
That's why it's not a coincidence that religion is connected with many outbreaks of violence: not because it is a cause, but because it provides a handy excuse.


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Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 16:25

Personally I believe that rather than Europe being a "dark continent", it is in fact a desirable model to follow for the rest of world. This is a problem which should be approached from a global perspective, over space and time. Limiting it to the ethnic makeup and economic problems over the next few decades is myopic.

The fact is that the the biggest problem Earth will face in the upcoming century is overpopulation, which causes several other problems along with it: environmental degradation, global warming, wars and social unrest, and if these problems are pushed to their hypothetical limits, the collapse of global civilization.

Yes, over the course of human history, the recipe of population growth and economic growth have worked well for human civilizations. However, that was because this growth was achieved thanks to the large potential of the Earth to support such an increasingly demanding population. Not only are modern humans six times as numerous as they were a thousand years ago (a blink of an eye in ecologic terms), but they also consume orders of magnitude more energy. The demands of human civilization upon the environment have increased exponentially oevr the past few thousand years, but the environment only has a limited ability to meet them. If current trends of economic and demographic expansion will continue, we will quickly reach a point of no return, which will result in a decreased ability of the ecosystem to support us, and a subsequent catastrophe.

Viewed in this sense, Europe is a kind of model to follow. Fearmongers point to falling birth rates and potential social problems 20-30 years down the road. However, such a gradual reduction in population and footprint on the environment is in my opinion greatly desirable over rapid growth followed by collapse. Europe has an economic and social infrastructure which could enable it to gradually weather the problems caused by an aging population, better than any other continent. On top of this, Europe is also supported by the rest of the world, by virtue of the global system of economic and financial exchange, which should make the transition easier.

As far as the emigration "problem" is concerned, most of the immigrants to Europe are resourceful and often educated individuals. The second and third generations of immigrants will adapt to the European culture, and whatever cultural contribution they bring to the established culture will probably only help the intellectual and cultural life of the continent. In the long run, this will only help make Europe a more diverse and culturally rich continent.

Is the decline in christian values such a large concern after all? Is the rate of crime and social cohesion in Europe really skyrocketing? No, people still maintain many of the christian values which are at the base of society, through education from their parents and through  the secular system of values whcih succeeded it. The only area of life which is affected to a large extent is family planning, which is affected principally by costs such as housing. However, can the world still afford a "have as many children as God wills it" mentality, in an era when child mortality is lower than at any point during the humanity's history? Besides, as population decreases, the cost of housing will decrease as well, to the point where an equilibrium is reached.

So what I'm saying is that while Europe may undergo economic and demographic stagnation, this is actually a good thing.



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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi



Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 20:02
The population in Europe is not declining. It is true that all Europe is facing falling birth rates regardless of the west, centre or east, however the actual population, especially in the west, is growing quite fast. West Europe is facing a phenomenon of falling birth rates (among the natives) combined with fast growing overall populations. If you look at the population of each country and the size of each major city in Europe 10 or 20 years ago and compare it with the populations now, you will notice the growth.
From an ecological point of view, about whose importance I really agree with you Decebal, the most desirable condition is for a population to be able to be sustained by the land they inhabit, and not to be dependent on products imported from other lands. Many west European countries, such as the UK for example, have a growing population already beyond the sustainability of their own lands.
So from an ecological point of view too, it is actually good to control immigration.

It seems I pushed a few buttons of insecurity with my last post in this thread. I was thoroughly entertained by some of the responses.



Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 20:40
Leonardo
Its origin is outside Europe you are right, but after centuries of permanence on European soil it became an European "thing",
 
Religions are generally for humans, not for specific groups only.
Christianity has a long history in Europe, well so does Judaism and Islam so all can be considered European as well according to your logic.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2008 at 21:48
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Your point on communism is taken and appreciated; I think it serves to point out that we often overstate the degree of difference between religious adherents and faithful adherents of other stringent ideologies. We also have a tendency, when we adopt this sort of mindset -- dare I call it an ideology? -- to view only one side of the coin when it comes to "troubles", for many things could be classified in this category. Such a mindset leads to ideologically motivated, false generalizations, such as the one I was addressing. The issue is nowhere near simple enough to make the claim that "only the religious parts of Europe have troubles," nor even that "it is mostly the religious parts of Europe that have troubles," at least not in this context.
 
The implicit point of the generalization is that religious is the cause of, or at least an intrinsic contributing factor in, these troubles, and that secularism is a cause for their resolution, or at least does not exacerbate them. As we may obviously see from history, the adoption and implementation of any ideology is fraught with "troubles", even when its adherents are well meaning. Whether this is because the ideology itself is intrinsically flawed (communism), or because it is overblown (secularism and materialism, for proper secular values can be a source of ethical and moral strength, and material goods are not, in and of themselves, evil),or again because there are those who would corrupt it (Christianity, although I'm sure we disagree a bit with regard to specifics here), there will always be difficulty here on Earth.
 
-Akolouthos
 
The causes of these troubles don't lie in religion or ideology or ethnicity or race. The causes lie in people, in particular people with personal political ambitions and power hunger, and especially ones who feel deprived of their rightful (in their eyes) power, or access to power, under the existing socio-political order. (cf bin Laden with regard to the political situation in Saudi Arabia: in a democratic Saudi Arabia I suspect bin Laden would have run for president as a reformer and probably won).
 
Religion, ideology, ethnicity then for them make handy excuses for political, frequently violent, action, and, sadly, they provide excellent motivators for their followers, in particular the ones who are themselves psychologically frustrated.
 
Violent terrorists, were their overt cause not to exist, would simply choose another one.
 
That's why it's not a coincidence that religion is connected with many outbreaks of violence: not because it is a cause, but because it provides a handy excuse.
 
I agree, with one caveat -- that being that the degree to which any particular ideology may be exploited is relative to its underlying precepts. That is to say that not all ideologies are created equal.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 18:27
The same stats should be very different in Spain, Portugal, Lithuania and Poland if this were true. Not sure if they are also.

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Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 13:31
We are touching two different issues here: 1) the decline of religion in Europe and 2)the demographic decline of native european populations.
Is it off topic to discuss about 2)?


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Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.


Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-May-2008 at 11:34
Originally posted by es_bih

Islam has never had a thing to do with it, Albanians have a high esteem to the Albanian ethnic background first. That is why most Albanians get along well inbetween each other, much more so than other multi religious ethnicities in the Balkans.


Albanians are indeed a good example of peaceful religious coexistence and national unity. I wish more people could stick up together like that.


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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-May-2008 at 12:29
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by es_bih

Islam has never had a thing to do with it, Albanians have a high esteem to the Albanian ethnic background first. That is why most Albanians get along well inbetween each other, much more so than other multi religious ethnicities in the Balkans.


Albanians are indeed a good example of peaceful religious coexistence and national unity. I wish more people could stick up together like that.

Well, they did. And started two wars that killed millions and ruined a continent.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-May-2008 at 16:12
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by es_bih

Islam has never had a thing to do with it, Albanians have a high esteem to the Albanian ethnic background first. That is why most Albanians get along well inbetween each other, much more so than other multi religious ethnicities in the Balkans.


Albanians are indeed a good example of peaceful religious coexistence and national unity. I wish more people could stick up together like that.

Well, they did. And started two wars that killed millions and ruined a continent.


?






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