The Americas able to hold their own against the Ch

Perhaps Kubilai Khan's Mongols might be a better bet than the Chinese. They would have loved the Great Plains. And as a nomadic people they would have ben culturally closer to the Amerindians.

See Poul Anderson's short story "The Only Game In Town".

We would need to look at the size and technology of the Indians on the west coast to see.

I'm not sure they needed to "conquere" Japan, as long as it did what the powers wanted.

Originally posted by pinguin Who said Chineses would have protected the Americans? The whole scenario was what happened if the Americans had entered in contact with Chineses CENTURIES before Europeans had a chance.

Indeed it would take centuries. Only the Incas were really in a position to adopt new technologies en masse (and they didn't exist centuries before 1492). The gap in technology levels would still be high everywhere else and the benefit to the Chinese to set up trade routes minimal. I'm not aware of any great demand in China for North American otter pelts. Or Mexican gold, for that matter.

I think the greatest advantage to Americans of prolonged contact with the Chinese would be an immunity to disease before the arrival of Europeans. Cortez would not have won Mexico when the Aztecs chased him out of the city with their bronze weapons and then did NOT get sick. The Mayans and Pueblo would have had fair warning when letters written in Chinese carried on horseback arrived about the goings on in Tenochtitlan. And the Incan Empire, armed with iron swords, horses, canons, and Confucian doctrine, would still be on the map today. The rest of the Americas would have a history akin to Southeast Asia- transformed into European colonies, but still preserving much of their pre-contact culture.

Originally posted by pinguin Not really. Europeans were in the limit of being crashed several times. Indeed, with all theirs limitations, the defeat of Europeans in the Americas were many. Do you wonder why it took so long for Europeans to enter the Amazons? the great plains? Patagonia? Well, they encoutered there the thougher resistence of all. With a little more of tech I bet Europeans wouldn't have been so sucessful in destroying the paradise.

Depends on how one wants to look at it. Conquering South America certainly wasn't easy, conquest on such a large scale (considering the size of the continent) was difficult, risky, expensive and time consuming. Still, I find the relative speed with which the conquistadors colonised the continent to be amazing.


Edited by Reginmund - 26-Nov-2007 at 13:15

Interesting.. I never thought about this

The European incursions began in the eastern Americas, the Chinese would have begun in the west. For the Chinese to prevent European entry in the west they would need to subjugate the whole continent to their control, as well as an enormous naval capacity. There are two fallacies here.

First, the Chinese confucianistic philosophy of empire did not favour conquest or colonisation of remote areas. The reign of Emperor Yongle, who sponsored Zheng He's expeditions, was an exception to this, and the Chinese empire quickly returned to form on Yongle's death, as both the expansionist policy and the naval adventure had been huge deficit undertakings. The Ming dynasty did not favour trade either, it downright undermined it in favour of creating an agriculturally self-sufficient realm, so it is unlikely they would have established trading colonies in the Americas or even traded with the natives there at all. In any case trade would not have hampered the Europeans.

Second, if the Chinese were to defend South America against the Europeans, they would need an enormous naval capacity, and at the end of Emperor Yongle's reign the huge fleet of Zheng He was left to rot. In the 16th century the Chinese empire did not possess a proper navy at all.

Ergo the scenario of Chinese influence in South America halting the European advance is dubious at best.

NB: I recommend everyone to read the article "Zheng He: The Lone Mariner and His Times" by my good friend poirot in the AE magazine.

Originally posted by pinguin If Europeans have tried after that, I am afraid they would have encounter the same degree of resistence they found in Japan. Another country that inherited Chinese knowledge in culture, science and technology.

The Europeans were not impressed with the Japanese military technology, on the contrary as soon as contact was established with Europeans (1543) the warring Japanese clans were only too eager to adopt European firearms, cannons, armours and ships. European technology completely altered the nature of warfare in Japan, and from there on the armies that made use of European military technology came out on top (the career of Oda Nobunaga and the watershed battle of Nagashino illustrates this well). Hideyoshi Toyotomi even aspired to conquering China with this technology, an idea completely unheard of before the advent of European firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Japan#Azuchi-Momoyama_Period_.281568_-1600_AD.29


Edited by Reginmund - 26-Nov-2007 at 00:13

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by longshanks31 I think the chinese would have done trade rather than conquest, i think the amerindians of all nations would have suffered much less, its hard to imagine how they could have suffered more.     Yes. I do agree with you. I bet we would end agreeing in everything

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by Reginmund ... Originally posted by pinguin Imagine an Americas with iron, horses, large ships�and gunpowder. I bet Spaniards and other Europeans won't have a chance to invade it if they tried. Without America as an outlet for population pressure and a place to exploit for resources, the Europeans' future would have looked all the worse. One man's bread is another man dead, they say. � Too bad Chineses didn't arrive in time so Americans have a chance to survive ...... � In the picture is Captain Popper, Romanian adventurer and exterminator of the Onas people of the Land of Fire. This is a shame of my own country, Chile,�for allowing that kind of criminals�as�refugees. Captain Popper died stabbed by his own people, which if I were religious I would say it was divine justice. � This is what the European contact�brought to the Americas, I am afraid: death and destruction. � � � � � �

There wasn't death and destruction in the Americas before European contact? Surely you jest. War, death and destruction were not inventions of Europe nor were they perfected by Europeans. There was death and destruction in the Americas before the Europeans arrived, look at the history of the Maya, and certain tribes in the Southwest USA, don't forget certain canabalistic tribes in the Carribean.

By the way if the Chinese arrived before the Europeans they would not have made that big a difference. The Americas still would not have had a supply of iron nor gunpowder. They might have had horses but the Europeans still would have won since they had resources that they could return to if they were to run out.

Originally posted by idalton Reginmund, slavery hasn't been legal in China for 2500 years. Whatever else the medieval Chinese did, they didn't keep slaves.

Yes, I'm aware, and as such it's a weak point, but the Spaniards didn't practice slavery to any great extent before settling in America either.

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738 I dont think we would ever try to colonize the Americans like what the European had done... taken from the example of Zheng He's voyages to Arabia and Africa, there has been no motivation of conquest except for establishment of recognition and trade.

Well, it varied. The reign of Yongle, which sponsored Zheng He's expeditions was unusually outwardlooking, but without a sound commercial policy to back it up like the Portuguese and Spaniards. It's a contrast to the previous reign of Hongwu and the later Hongxi, which were more traditionally confucianistic, focusing on internal stability and agriculture at the expense of foreign adventures and commerce.

Originally posted by pinguin Imagine an Americas with iron, horses, large ships and gunpowder. I bet Spaniards and other Europeans won't have a chance to invade it if they tried.

Without America as an outlet for population pressure and a place to exploit for resources, the Europeans' future would have looked all the worse. One man's bread is another man dead, they say.