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The wall against immigration

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Maharbbal View Drop Down
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The wall against immigration
    Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 20:42
I'm sorry to revive an old debate but I've been listening to the debate for a long time and I find there are many interesting points raised by both camps. Nonetheless there is one important detail I find utterly stupid: the wall over the border.

I have another idea, make it a 14 km wide water barrier refrigerate it for it never to rise over 15 degrees c  or even better make a 113 km wide water barrier. No wait wait make it several hundreds km long and put sharks and marine crocodiles. You see what I'm heading at?

Some countries are island better protected from frontier jumpers than the US will ever be and still have hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens. Migrants are often ready to invest up to $30,000, make years-long voyages and risk their lives to a rate close to 1% risk to die in the crossing of the Med. And they are ready to do it again and again and again.

What do you think the fence will. No doubts people will need a little while to find a new way to cross the border. Overall less of them may try it and even less make it. But lets face it they still be coming in their tens of thousands annually. More of them will die trying and they will pay higher prices to the mafias. Which makes any supporter of the fence an accomplice of murder and a support of criminal organizations.

According to some estimate one third of the illegal aliens walked in the US of A legally. What are you going to do for them? Invest more money in checking their where about during the three month of their legal stay? Invest more money in checking their motivation? Most likely you are going to do as France does with Algeria: 60% of the visa demands are refused most often without  clear reasons. Walking in the US even for a short while will become the right of a few lucky ones who won the lottery. And guess who will try the hardest those coming to visit their granny or the wanna be illegal migrant?

I'm not a US citizen. I am not the best person to talk about it but the fence is plain stupid and costs a hell of a lot to US taxpayers (me including). A solution (not the solution) may lays in reproducing the illegal immigration system but to the the benefice of the public.

Lets admit people usually pay $5,000 to come in the US and on average succeed the 3rd time but need 12 month in between each attempt and remain on the US soil generally around 6 years (the figures ain't correct it is just  an example). Very simply it is sufficient to give 6 years working visas to people on a 3 years waiting list and ask them to pay $5,000 (which could cover for instance English lessons and admin fees). The advantages for the US are: less illegal aliens, a broader tax base, less mafia, a no corps on your conscience.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 21:04
Personally I differ. People migrate north to the US for mostly manual jobs. How about the US moves all it's manual jobs south. Closes all its factories, mines, maunfacturing industry. The labour and manufacture costs south of the border will be much cheaper, it makes perfect capitalistic sense and then no-one will need to come north for work. All the work will be south.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 21:18
Originally posted by Paul

Personally I differ. People migrate north to the US for mostly manual jobs. How about the US moves all it's manual jobs south. Closes all its factories, mines, maunfacturing industry. The labour and manufacture costs south of the border will be much cheaper, it makes perfect capitalistic sense and then no-one will need to come north for work. All the work will be south.
 
This does make economic sense, the USA would benefit from shifting many of its labour intensive industries to countries which can perform them more efficiently while concentrating on the knowledge intensive and technology sectors which its university institutions give it such an advantage.
 
However, interest groups have huge interest in the US government's decisions. Lobby groups for agriculture, mining, manufacturing and a range of other labour intensive industries would simply not allow for such an economic restructuring to take place. Bush signed virtually every single request for economic protection put to him by special interest economic lobby groups. For the executive to hold power, it needs to have support from industry and low skilled workers who vote. Until it works out how to overcome their political opposition to economic restructuring, it is constrained in what it can do.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 21:35
No doubts people will need a little while to find a new way to cross the border. Overall less of them may try it and even less make it. But lets face it they still be coming in their tens of thousands annually.

The position of illegal immigrants will be more marginalized so they'll earn even less money and it will be more expensive and riskier to get into the US. Result: less illegal immigrants will return to Mexico (which more than half of them did before there were tight controls) so this wall will actually cause more illegal immigrants to be in the US.

Even if you don't give a Royal Flying Rat's Ass about the situation of the illegals themselves, this wall won't in any way make things better. It's in nobody's interest.


Edited by Mixcoatl - 18-Jul-2007 at 21:39
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 22:00
I see where you are heading at Paul. Moving South would mean: cheaper work force, less fix cost (e.g. environmental laws are surely cooler South of the border), and would allow industrialist to buy new engines and factories.

There are two problems though. It is not politically realistic as many would lose their income which is not even good news for industrialist as they would lose some excellent consumers (better than the Mex will ever be as the US worker spends $105 over each $100 of his salary while the Mex spends $60 over the same amount).

Second prob: it is not sure that anti-protectionist measures be so bad for a country's economy. Specially when the protectionist country is the richest in the world and has a significant edge over its competitors in term of productivity, technology etc. See the US from 1865 to 1941: big trade barrier but important immigration and unique influx of capital, went quite alright for them. China nowadays has important trade barriers too and is not doing too badly.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 22:09
Originally posted by Paul

Personally I differ. People migrate north to the US for mostly manual jobs. How about the US moves all it's manual jobs south. Closes all its factories, mines, maunfacturing industry. The labour and manufacture costs south of the border will be much cheaper, it makes perfect capitalistic sense and then no-one will need to come north for work. All the work will be south.
 
Going southbound. Wasn't that a thin lizzy song?
 
Been there. Done that. Well not personally but this is an ongoing fixture with current multiglobals. Locally the big three auto manufacturers and her suppliers have set shop down south across the border with cheaper labor at the expense of us having to watch Lou Dobbs on CNN complaining about the weakened middle class. With shrinking production in Michigan we get such ingenious alternatives by the governor. http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/071807/loc_granholm001.shtml
Raising various taxes. Shrinking police forces, reducing jail sentences (30,000 dollars per inmate head is too costly to maintain) etc. etc. the list keeps growing each year. http://www.wwmt.com/news/jail_36969___article.html/sentences_felonies.html
 
I think we need to remain competitive within the US. Then we could sell abroad and locally.  
 
I agree with most here that a wall is not the solution regarding the immigration issues. It just might be a solution to keep jobs in the US thoughWink. Now that's a Michael Moore moment for ya.


Edited by Seko - 18-Jul-2007 at 22:11
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 22:33
Yok I hate Lou Dobbs. This slick liar. He makes me think about Pepsi: up and coming but never managed to get the unique taste of the original. Drink Coke and watch Bill O'Reily!!! I mean how many news anchors are ready to show up every day drunk like a skunk and still bark insults at the invited people to the point of making you consider Kim Jong-Il like a soulful democrat?

Seko there are better ways to prevent people from employing illegals: enforcing the law that makes people liable to the firms they employ in the case these employ illegals.

Ho and there was one thing I was forgetting: if you prevent the immigrants from coming in salaries will rise. Which is a good thing for people whose jobs can't go away from the US (hairdressers, construction workers) but is dreadful for those who are working in sectors which are based on illegal labour (hotels, agriculture, etc). Even with trade barriers Chilean lettuce will be cheaper than US ones. So the whole lettuce industry will collapse. Hundreds legal workers will lose their jobs.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:46

This is what U.S. thinks of Latin America. Nothing more, and nothing less:

 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 00:24
Originally posted by Maharbbal

if you prevent the immigrants from coming in salaries will rise.

The problem is that that is impossible. Once people have started moving it is impossible to stop them. If you try to keep them out all the same it will only make things worse. The best you can do - both for the U.S. and Mexico - is regulating it. Giving residence and work permits for say 3 years would be a good idea.
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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 02:38
What do you think the fence will. No doubts people will need a little while to find a new way to cross the border


Fences are meant to keep people out, thats the whole point. Once they start getting deported then they will stop trying. If they try another way, deport them again. It will stop in no time.

Im more for helping people in their own countries, rather than have them flock around the world looking for work. The Western World cant support the worlds poverty forever. Some just need to take some responsibility for their own countries. What is "Mexico" doing to help their own kind, to try an pull them out of poverty ?

The rich should stop being so greedy also. They only see illegal immigration as cheap $$$$$

Personally I differ. People migrate north to the US for mostly manual jobs. How about the US moves all it's manual jobs south. Closes all its factories, mines, maunfacturing industry. The labour and manufacture costs south of the border will be much cheaper, it makes perfect capitalistic sense and then no-one will need to come north for work. All the work will be south


How do you move a "mine" Confused








Edited by think - 19-Jul-2007 at 02:51
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 02:51
Have a border security forces, armed with rifles and MG's. That will deter many more people than the "wall". You can also put all those landmines to use.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 03:21
Fences are meant to keep people out, thats the whole point. Once they start getting deported then they will stop trying. If they try another way, deport them again. It will stop in no time.
Europe has been deporting people for a decade or more and 'they' keep coming.

Im more for helping people in their own countries, rather than have them flock around the world looking for work. The Western World cant support the worlds poverty forever. Some just need to take some responsibility for their own countries. What is "Mexico" doing to help their own kind, to try an pull them out of poverty ?
A mighty third world (lets say with the poorest country on Earth being as rich as Mexico is nowadays) would mean a dramatic collapse of your buying power.
 
The rich should stop being so greedy also. They only see illegal immigration as cheap $$$$$
No offense but this is a dull remark: have you seen one country which renounced to its national interest without a very very very strong pressure?

How do you move a "mine" Confused
lol it is not 1899 no more a third of the US economy ain't based on mining





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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 03:57
Originally posted by Sparten

Have a border security forces, armed with rifles and MG's. That will deter many more people than the "wall". You can also put all those landmines to use.


Armed yes, but Landmines. No.
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  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 04:04
Europe has been deporting people for a decade or more and 'they' keep coming


Only because their soft on that issue.  If they put the pressure on then things would change.

No offense but this is a dull remark: have you seen one country which renounced to its national interest without a very very very strong pressure?


Well im not sure.

lol it is not 1899 no more a third of the US economy ain't based on mining


I was under impression that America was a resource rich nation.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 07:11

You don't need military style minefields. Just a smattering and here and there with a big sign saying  "danger minefield", in Spanish. How many are going to attempt tp risk life and limb to call the Yanks bluff.

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  Quote Dan Carkner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 09:40
Originally posted by Sparten

You don't need military style minefields. Just a smattering and here and there with a big sign saying  "danger minefield", in Spanish. How many are going to attempt tp risk life and limb to call the Yanks bluff.



Probably a lot, considering how many already risk being shot or having their legs broken by vengeful border guards.


I find it funny that people in this thread consider it would be to the US's advantage to move all manufacturing out of the country.  You advocate developing the economy of other countries, but the dismantling of your own!
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 09:50
Sparten, if it is a joke put a smily. Hundreds are already dying in the desert. If it is not a joke it is plain cruel and anyhow totally unuseful. They'd find a way through  believe me (remember that hundreds of Africans sail to the Canaries on draft boats always about to sink typically with little water and food hoping they won't get lost. The US would have to put a fence all the way from Texas to Florida on all the beaches of the Mexico Golf. The only other option is death penalty for illegal immigrants
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 09:53
Originally posted by Sparten

You don't need military style minefields. Just a smattering and here and there with a big sign saying  "danger minefield", in Spanish. How many are going to attempt tp risk life and limb to call the Yanks bluff.

 
"Danger Radioactive" along with a newspaper story/scandal exposing the use nuclear waste as part of the fence construction should do the trick.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:11
The best wall to be made is to Punish those who hire them and give them homes here. Large fines, take their property away and sell it with the profits going to our Education and medical system, and take away or suspend their ability to own their own business for 5-10 years. It's those who take Illegals in that are to blame. If you don't clean up after yourself, then unwanted critters will keep entering your home, our Government needs to clean up.
So build a wall, but a wall that prevents Businesses and Home owners from Harboring Illegals. Then these Illegals can't say it's racism and only Hispanics are targetted, because there isn't a wall, and there isn't racial profiling, it's making sure the Business owner has his workers backgrounds checked out, and I'm sure there could be a good and efficient way made up.
 
With that though, I believe ICE agents should always be on the look out and actually doing the job they are supposed to, and border patrols need to continuly be stepped up along with top technology.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:48
Originally posted by think

Only because their soft on that issue.  If they put the pressure on then things would change.

The Netherlands for example have expelled 22.000 illegals durning the past three years, often ripping up families in the process or sending people back to war torn areas. And as we are speaking people are probably drowning in the Atlantic or Mediterrenean trying to immigrate. Not exactly what I call soft.

When will people see that a 'hard' migration policy has never worked?
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