Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Qnzkid711
Knight
Joined: 10-Jan-2005
Location: Albania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Ottoman Empire should be included here also Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 17:22 |
Originally posted by azimuth
Originally posted by Qnzkid711
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Ottoman Empire was more Roman than Islamic for sure in my opinion.
It was never an islamic empire actually. The people in the Balkans
was not forced for conversion, unlike the other islamic empires.
|
Tell that to my people(Albanians) who were slaughtered and raped until conversions. The smart ones left for Italy Sicily.
|
then why they still muslims?
|
Simple. They are not. The charts may say so but I have RARELY found
anyone who even knows about the religion in Albania. In fact once
Albanians started being forced into conversions many people told them
not to practice it. They stated that the Albanian religion is
Albanianism. Not to mention most Albanians still follow Greek Orthodox
traditions of the pre-Ottomon days. Yes there are the few out there who
practice the religion, probably are ignorant of the struggle Albanians
went through to stay Catholic . In fact
I cannot even remember seeing one mosque in Albania. So the answer is
what charts say don'y make a difference. According to charts America is
over 80% catholic or christian. Let me tell you those numbers would be
much smaller if they counted the "yea im religious. I dont go to
church, commit sins and can't remember the last time I prayed but yea
Im religious."
|
|
Miller
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 21:28 |
Originally posted by azimuth
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Parents choice, of course, isn't that how most religion is passed on? |
yes
but if you are a grown up man and knew that this religion was forced
on you and it is not suitable for you why are you keep practicing it?
why Albanians with all these suffering just because they are muslims still muslims
i guess the raping and the killing these days not to force them to become muslims , its the other way around
and they still muslims and increasing. <>
>
|
Is this incorrect interoperation
of Islamic law?
From AFP:
...In the Sharia, or Islamic law, "mortad" is
a reference to someone who has committed apostacy by leaving Islam
while "mahdour al-damm" is a term applying to someone whose blood may
be shed with impunity....
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 02:52 |
Originally posted by Miller
Originally posted by azimuth
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Parents choice, of course, isn't that how most religion is passed on? |
yes
but if you are a grown up man and knew that this religion was forced on you and it is not suitable for you why are you keep practicing it?
why Albanians with all these suffering just because they are muslims still muslims
i guess the raping and the killing these days not to force them to become muslims , its the other way around
and they still muslims and increasing. <> >
|
Is this incorrect interoperation of Islamic law?
From AFP:
...In the Sharia, or Islamic law, "mortad" is a reference to someone who has committed apostacy by leaving Islam while "mahdour al-damm" is a term applying to someone whose blood may be shed with impunity....
|
the transilations are correct
|
|
|
Miller
Baron
Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 487
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 03:43 |
Originally posted by Miller
Originally posted by azimuth
Originally posted by Christscrusader
Parents choice, of course, isn't that how most religion is passed on? |
yes
but if you are a grown up man and knew that this religion was forced
on you and it is not suitable for you why are you keep practicing it?
why Albanians with all these suffering just because they are muslims still muslims
i guess the raping and the killing these days not to force them to become muslims , its the other way around
and they still muslims and increasing. <>
|
Is this incorrect interoperation
of Islamic law?
From AFP:
...In the Sharia, or Islamic law, "mortad" is
a reference to someone who has committed apostacy by leaving Islam
while "mahdour al-damm" is a term applying to someone whose blood may
be shed with impunity....
|
In Islamic law can the blood of someone
leaving Islam be shed with impunity?
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 05:38 |
Originally posted by Miller
In Islamic law can the blood of someone leaving Islam be shed with impunity? |
as far as i know yes
but it is not practiced any more, not even in the arabia
|
|
|
vagabond
Colonel
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 524
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 18:21 |
In Islamic law can the blood of someone leaving Islam be shed with impunity? |
I think we're taking this a bit out of context. In the Christian religious texts - how many offenses are punishable by death? What is the prescribed method of execution? How many places actually observe these strictures today?
It is interesting material - but getting quite off topic. Let's try to stay closer to the original theme and not hijack this thread - if you want to discuss this further - pleae open a new thread on the appropriate board.
|
In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
|
|
Ptolemy
Knight
Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 85
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 20:32 |
but it is not practiced any more, not even in the arabia |
Is it not illegal to leave the Islamic faith for another. That is definately illegal in Egypt and many other Muslim countries.
|
|
Infidel
Colonel
Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 13:16 |
I don't think the OE was a third or fourth or wathever Rome. I think it was an empire of its kind, with its importance. The fact is that the Ottomans occupied large portions of land once Roman, but the culure and the methods were plain different.
|
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
|
|
Seko
Emperor
Spammer
Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 08:06 |
Please share with us where it is written in "Islamic" law that apostacy is met with death? Compare the religious rights of those in "Egypt, or any other country that practices Sharia from man versus Sharia from Allah!
|
|
Degredado
Consul
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 12:54 |
There was only one Rome. Byzantium was too Christian, and the Ottomans too Islamic.
But should the Ottoman empire be considered European, taking into account arabic, persian, and not to mention turkic, influences?
|
Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
|
|
Infidel
Colonel
Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 13:12 |
Yes, because it was multiethnical up to the high positions in the state apparatus. Many viziers were greek or slav. But most importantly, because its existence challenged the reigning european powers of the time and changed the history of Europe (they were long enough there for it) and its heritage can still be largely felt in the Balkans (Greece included, of course), as being one of the earliest possessions of the ottomans in the Continent.
|
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
|
|
exodussian
Immortal Guard
Joined: 06-Feb-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 08:55 |
Conversion of albanians on islam was like that.
Ottoman rule had taxation system which seperates muslim - nonmuslims. If yeomanry people from nonmuslim areas would become a muslim. They had economical advantages but subjects of him had to be converted too. Thus caused albanian people to get in islamic world fastly.
I can easily say , money rulz. Especially for albanians.
But they liked islam. And their grandmothers werent raped or such silly thing.
|
|
Alparslan
Colonel
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 03:16 |
What Rome are you talking about? East, West, Christian, Pagan........ There is not a unique and stagnant culture. It can be very well said that Ottomans were the Islamic Rome.
It can be said that Ottoman Empire was the closest political structure to East Rome which cannot be seen as a part of western civilization as well. Apart from Mediterranian regions of Europe, other parts are nothing more than imitations of Rome.
This is a struggle of northern Europeans to create an identity, a shift from the hut civilization to stone buildings. This is not history but created history. It is not much different than claiming heritage of Trojans by farest north countries of Europe.
|
|
TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 15:08 |
well put Alparslan.
The capital city of OE was Istanbul as well.
|
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
|
|
Infidel
Colonel
Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 20:08 |
I think northern europeans have an identity! The Vikings for instance. Every people has an identity, whatever it may be.
Rome (the classical Roman Empire) sets the standards for the future empires. That's why every one speaks of a second, third, fourth, etc., Rome.
|
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
|
|
HulaguHan
Consul
Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 19:11 |
Truth is, Greeks now object it but their ancestors fought and died for their Caesar' s.
This book can be found very easily:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp? userid=5E6K0RIAXe&isbn=0674013859&itm=3
It mentions that Comneni Emperor recognices Mehmet the Conqueror as the Emperor of Romans.
Well thrones are bought by power, Ottoman dynasty bought it by their power. Greeks were governing the empire in reality, Turks lost their positions to Greeks and other guys.
Counting Ottoman Empire as an Islamic Empire is a big mistake. It will be like counting Roman Empire as a Christian Empire. It is true that governors were muslim but they have never forced others to become muslims. Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians (Turkish origined) are still orthodox.
Army was formed of Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians.
Navy was completely Greek.
Governments were consisted of Greek with some Serbs and some Albanians.
Well I can not say it is a Turkish Empire either. And do not be deceived, in those days, Islam was far more advanced, free, enlightened religion than Christianity. So do not be confused of the conversions.
Edited by HulaguHan
|
|
HulaguHan
Consul
Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 19:23 |
Originally posted by vagabond
In Islamic law can the blood of someone leaving Islam be shed with impunity? |
I think we're taking this a bit out of context. In the Christian religious texts - how many offenses are punishable by death? What is the prescribed method of execution? How many places actually observe these strictures today?
It is interesting material - but getting quite off topic. Let's try to stay closer to the original theme and not hijack this thread - if you want to discuss this further - pleae open a new thread on the appropriate board.
|
It is very simple Vagabond. Backwardness is for any kind of people in the world. There were many Turks who have converted to Orthodox religion under Ottoman or Seljuk rules. They were not killed because in those days Islam was enlightened. On the other hand, on these days, Christians burnt their women who were accused of being a witch.
In Ottoman Empire, never there was a blood shed. Non muslims ate their pork, drank their wine with plessure while their muslim friends sitting in the same table (most drank alcohol too). We have emperors who died of an illness, caused by Alcohol, Murat IV. Many emperors drank alcohol like many do today in Turkey.
Relax man, this is the key word.
I suggest Ottomans belong here.
|
|
HulaguHan
Consul
Joined: 26-Jan-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 19:24 |
Albanians became muslim, far before Ottoman conquests. And Muslim Albanians resisted more than Christian Serbs and Greeks to the Ottoman conquests. Albanian stubborness is a common phrase in Turkey.
|
|
Degredado
Consul
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 366
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 19:50 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
On the other hand, on these days, Christians burnt their women who were accused of being a witch. |
Actually, angry mobs burned the local weirdoes for being witches. Single, lonely old women were more likely to be considered weird than men, but men were still burned anyway.
|
Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 15:33 |
The Ottoman Empire is a very complicated issue... First of all, we cant identify Ottoman Empire as Turkish, since the emperors even dont identify themselves so...
Ottoman Empire was a multi ethnical and multi religious empire which was built on a synthesis of ancient Roman, Islamic, Turkish and Middle Eastern cultures. The empire's goal was to unite the world under their rule to form the third Rome. They didnt differ any nations, but religious groups of people. Turkmens were only a major ethnic population under Ottoman rule who were always tried to be converted to Sunnites from Alevis or other beliefs, and rebellious against the Ottoman authority because of religion, economy and pressure made by padishahs.
So if to identify Ottoman Empire, I would prefer to say certainly the third Rome...
|
|