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"I do apologize for the Crusades!"

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  Quote Jorsalfar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "I do apologize for the Crusades!"
    Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 09:37

Whenever Norwegian Commandos sabotaged german interests in norway they hid in Sweden and from Sweden they managed to get back to Britain.The Norwegians surrendered to the Germans after 2 months of fighting,but one Norwegian Infantry division still fought the germans for one month after the surrender.After they realized they could not win they marched over to Sweden.

During the war  55 000 norwegians civilians fled to Sweden and was allowed to stay there.

Sweden did some good things during the war too.



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 10:56

From: http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/ww2/w w23.htm

Many people say that Sweden's worst treachery during the Second World War was the extensive export of iron ore to the German weapon industry. When the world, during the Winter War period, understood how Hitler prepared for war and the danger for a new war became obvious, the Swedish iron ore became a big interest. The ore was regarded to be Hitler's Achilles heel, since he was so dependent on it. Sweden had the power to reduce the export, which would reduce Hitler's armament industry as well. Calculations say that the Swedish iron ore export lengthened the war with two years.In a message from Ralph Glynn, a member of the English parliament, he let us know just how dependent Germany was of Sweden. If we stopped our export it would lead to an end of the war within six months, and if German troops would attack Sweden, the English would come to our rescue. But the Swedish government had other plans in mind, since the iron ore financed much of the Swedish life during the war. We received coal in exchange, and what the iron ore was used for was not Sweden's problem, the main thing was that the Swedish people lived a good life.The Allied tried to get Sweden to reduce the export, and finally the country came to an agreement about a yearly iron export to Germany. The Germans were still co-operative, because Sweden had found a good way to cheat the Allied. Sweden did not keep any record of the export to Germany.When the war went worse for the Germans, Sweden turned its interest towards the Allied. Another thing the Germans had need of was ball bearings and Sweden had the best. Sweden evaded the trade agreement and smuggled goods to both Germany and England.In 1944, Sweden promised the Allied to reduce the ball bearing export as well, but found a loophole in the agreement and started to export ball bearing steal and ball bearing machines. Sweden was prepared to do everything, and made money of the war even though it condemned it.

Swedes warmed themselves with coal from occupied parts of Poland, while the Polish people suffered. Many people were against what was happening, but the risk to loose their jobs if they said anything was to big so they just pretended not knowing anything about it.

From: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-38797/specarbete/sweden03.htm

C. Swedens Cessation of Trade With Germany

During the last 18 months of World War II, unremitting Allied diplomatic pressure and the crumbling of the Nazi war effort moved Sweden gradually to reduce and ultimately to end its trade to Germany. In implementation of the September 1943 agreement, Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany, which had averaged more than 9 million tons annually during the War, were reduced to 7 million tons in 1944. The export of Swedish ball-bearings to Germany was also steadily reduced during 1944. During the War, Germany made extravagant use of ball-bearings, and almost a third of the total German production went into aircraft production. Nearly 90 percent of the approximately 100 million bearings used by Germany annually was manufactured in Germany, and 60 percent of these were produced in Schweinfurt by a subsidiary of the Svenska Kullagerfabriken (SKF) owned by the Enskilda Bank of Stockholm, which was owned by the Wallenberg family.9

In 1943 Allied war planners singled out the German ball-bearing industry as a potential bottleneck in the German war economy. In an effort to eliminate this critical component in German war production, U.S. bombers mounted major high-risk air raids on Schweinfurt during August and October 1943. The 16 raids against these ball-bearing targets, of which those on August 17 and October 14 were the largest, were the most disastrous American daylight bombings of the war. More than 50 U.S. heavy bombers were lost and many others damaged in the two major raids. The bombing temporarily set back but failed to cripple German ball-bearing production, and Germany reorganized and decentralized this production so as to avoid further efforts to destroy it from the air.10 Postwar analyses determined that the Allied bombing campaign reduced German ball-bearing production by at least a quarter, but German industrial countermeasures and improvisations, including the determination that fewer ball-bearings were necessary for various production purposes, warded off any serious consequences. Moreover, the Allied-Swedish trade agreement of September 1943, which halted exports of ball-bearings, neglected to impose restrictions on exports of high-grade steel used to manufacture ball-bearings and appears to have allowed Sweden, largely through an SKF subsidiary, to undertake to provide Germany with 30,000 tons of ball-bearing steel, largely offsetting the drop in the export of finished ball-bearings.11

After the unsuccessful air campaign against the Schweinfurt ball-bearing plants, the SKF plant in Sweden assumed even greater importance to U.S. officials. SKF was the largest foreign supplier of ball-bearings to Germany, supplying up to 70 percent of German imports.12 The FEA, whose analysis of German ball-bearing shortages contributed to the Schweinfurt bombing campaign, followed up the raids by taking the lead in negotiating a special $5 million preclusive purchase deal between the U.S. Commercial Corporation (USCC) and SKF for a portion of SKFs June-October ball-bearing production. The agreement was concluded in April 1944. In March the Joint Chiefs of Staff had expressed to Secretary Hull their deep concern over the continued flow of SKF ball-bearings to Germany and sought his assistance in halting it. He replied in a May 19 letter that reflected the appreciation within the U.S. Government of Swedens force majeure arguments for moving slowly in cutting off exports to Germany:

From the same site:

The Allies were also concerned that Sweden did not sufficiently resist German demands for concessions that directly aided Germany in its conduct of the War in Europe. In July 1941 a fully-equipped German division crossed Sweden from Norway to Finland; through much of the War, Sweden permitted German troops and matriel to transit Sweden to and from Norway and Finland. According to U.S. estimates, 250,000 trips by German troops (presumably on leave traveling in "sealed cars") crossed Sweden in each direction, and 250,000 tons of equipment transited Sweden.

From http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/ww2/w w21.htm

The Swedish Neutrality

When the Second World War broke out, Sweden had many times stated herself as a strict neutral country. It had not been involved in a war since 1814, which was exactly the way it should be in the minds of the Swedes. Today they do not know much about their involvement in the Second World War, probably since it is nothing to be proud of. The Swedish history books do not tell about Sweden's involvement in the war, you only read about the official version which says that Sweden was a neutral country. In reality, it broke the neutrality in the beginning of the war, and supported the Nazis.

The war between England, France and Germany seemed so far away from Sweden, but when Russia attacked Finland and "The Finnish Winter War" started, Sweden suddenly became very close to the war. The prime minister, P-A Hansson, established a coalition government, with all the political parties included, except the Communists. They believed that they should stick together, to avoid political disruption. The first purpose was to keep Sweden outside the war, no matter the cost. The second purpose was to stop the opposition from the inhabitants. Per Albin Hansson continued to be Prime Minister and his strategy during the war was not to be strong and clear, and not to be neutral. Instead he chose to be weak and vague, and not clearing out the arising problems until it was absolutely necessary, and even then he often solved them in the Nazi's advantage.

Sweden, for example, refused England and France to transport troops through Sweden to help Finland.

In the spring of 1940, "The Phoney War" ended. On the 9th of April, the Nazis attacked and occupied Denmark and Norway. On the 18th of June, Sweden gave the Nazis permission to transport soldiers through Sweden. 2140 000 German soldiers, were transported on the Swedish railways during three years to August in 1943, when it was clear that Germany would loose the war.

The population managed, and food supplies functioned better than it had done in the previous war. Sweden was cut off from the west, but convoys from Gothenburg brought the necessary food supplies. Large scale exports of iron ore to Germany continued. It was probably one big reason for the German occupation of Norway, since the iron was shipped out from Narvik, and the Englishmen started mining that area, to stop the iron export. Sweden ignored that Germany made guns from the iron.

 

 

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 11:07

I found also note about sources which you may find interesting:

1. Aalders, Gerard and Cees Wiebes. The art of cloaking ownership: the secret collaboration and protection of the German war industry by the neutrals: the case of Sweden. Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press and the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation, 1996. v, 210 pp.
Note: The authors deal with the activities of Swedish businessmen, representing "neutral" banks and corporations, who cooperated with their counterparts in Nazi-Germany; specifically, there is a focus on the Wallenberg family and their Stockholm Enskilda Bank. Cloaking, or hiding the true Nazi business ownership from Allies is noted, as is the way neutral banks, including Enskilda, helped to dispose of assets looted from occupied territory or Jews.

2. Aalders, Gerard and Cees Wiebes. "Stockholms Enskilda Bank, German Bosch and IG Farben: a short history of cloaking". Scandinavian Economic History Review 33, no.1(1985): 25-50.
Note: This article represents the authors' early research into the cloaking, or the hiding of Nazi business ownership from Allies, performed by neutral countries.

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 11:31
This is an intersting thread. I like exchange about Sweden.
There is another country that escaped the self-examination in Europe. It is also a country with strong neo-nazi party.
I am talking about Austria which disguised itself as a victim after WWII.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 11:43

Originally posted by cavalry4ever

This is an intersting thread. I like exchange about Sweden.
There is another country that escaped the self-examination in Europe. It is also a country with strong neo-nazi party.
I am talking about Austria which disguised itself as a victim after WWII.

Aye, Austrians seems to belive that all the bad things during WW2 were commited by Germans and that they are innocent and blameless.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 12:11
Mosquito, that is schoolwork written by 15-16-year olds. Most of the factuals are correct, but their reasoning and conclusions are not. Read my last post and follow the links. For a good study on the topic I recommend: sl*get om Nordkalotten.



There is a splendid site here, that discusses the actions of the Swedish government and its correctness and the like. Unfortunately it is Swedish only.


The point is that the aim of the Swedish government was to stay out of the war, and help the "struggling brother peoples" (the Finns and Norwegians, basicly) as long as it was possible. Every concession that were made to Germany were due to threat of invasion, not of support. Germany was also the only country exporting coal, which was badly needed for heating and the industries - without that, everything would've stopped. Meanwhile the ore transports went to Germany, everything possible were made to help the allied forces or the prosecuted people in Europe. It is quite clear where the allegiance were, despite the unfortunate ore and troop transports.





Concerning the Nazigold, it was as I suspected. The London Commision came to the following conclusions concerning the Swedish ore payments (the gold part, not the coal):

    • In total 28.9tonnes of gold and 1.5 tonnes of coins were transferred from the German Reichsbank to the Swedish Riksbank
    • the Commision found no indications that the Riksbank bought Jewish gold
    • 16.4 tonnes may however have contained a small part confiscated or plundered private gold
    • there is a single case of a Swedish statesman who suspected that the offered gold may have come from Jews or other prosecuted persons. This happened in 1944 when Sweden would receive a gold shipment earlier agreed upon. The trade was later concluded after German promises that the gold was not stolen from Jews or similar.



    Edited by Styrbiorn
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      Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 13:15
    Styrbiorn,
    How about the ball bearings. It looks that this was a bit more than keeping Swedish homes warm in winter.
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      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 13:25

  • there is a single case of a Swedish statesman who suspected that the offered gold may have come from Jews or other prosecuted persons. This happened in 1944 when Sweden would receive a gold shipment earlier agreed upon. The trade was later concluded after German promises that the gold was not stolen from Jews or similar.
  • Concerning the fact that it was gold im really shocked that there was even 1 who didnt want it.

     

     

    You are right and 2 quoted pieces comes from kid's homework. But 2 other are rather not childish.

    So if you could explain:

    1. Why is gold stolen from Poles, French, Norewgians, Danes, Greek's, Yugoslavians better than gold stolen fron Jews?(if you really belive that there was no jewish gold, i dont).

    2. What was the role of Svenska Kullagerfabriken, Enskilda Bank of Stockholm and familly Wallenberg (there were actually more Swedes that were doing good buissnes on war)?

    3. Is 30 tons of gold and coal from occupied countries bad payment for iron ore?

    4. Did Sweden export iron ore to Germany even in 1944 when it was obvious that Germany wont invade Sweden (actually it was obvious even earlier)?

    5. Can you say that Sweden did bad buissnes on suplying Germany with materials which Nazists needed to continue the war?

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      Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 15:16
    Originally posted by cavalry4ever

    Styrbiorn,
    How about the ball bearings. It looks that this was a bit more than keeping Swedish homes warm in winter.

    Yes, quite a lot more: 2 million Germans waiting to take the step over the Keel and Sound.

    Mosquito:
    1. never said it was. The gold was German, not stolen. Personally I consider the London Commision a more reliable source than you, so I'll stick with their report until you come up with some evidence.

    2. they made money on the war, as did Boeing, Rolls Royce and thousands of other companies.

    3. No idea.

    4. no. Or yes. The shipments started to be choked severly already in '43 when the government decided the military was strong enough to withstand an invasion. Numerous other concession ceased by this time too, including the troop transports (soldiers on leave/wounded - only one armed transport was made). It was a gradual process - the last ore boat left as late as oct '44 though. An interesting sidenote is that the largest exporter of iron to Germany besides Sweden, both prior and after 1939 was.....France.

    5. Considering the fact that the iron ore export what was kept Sweden from going back to 17th century standards without power, heating or any import products whatsover the answer has to be no. The ore were also used to blackmail the Germans to release more than 130,000 Jews. That being said, money was made and it surely helped the Nazis a lot. I'm personally not so sure how to judge the iron ore transports. The alternative was to get invaded and occupied by the Germans, and keep a German army occupied from fighting other fronts. Either way, the Germans had gotten their ore. To give in to concessions like that may not be "honourable", but I have yet to read upon a tiny nation completely sacrifizing itself in a similar way. Realpolitik runs this world.

    Edited by Styrbiorn
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      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 18:23

    So basically you have confirmed my statement that Sweden became rich because of collaboration with Nazists.

    First Sweden made great monay selling iron which was used to destroy Europe and next Sweden made great monay selling iron which Europe needed to rebuilt itself. Anyway you filled full your empty nordic bellies at the expense of the others. But it is, as you said, "realpolitik". From the country which was always one of the poorest in Europe you became one of the richest.
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      Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 04:09
    It wasn't collaboration of any sort. If the schoolyard bully forces you to give him your lunch money do you call it collaboration?

    It doesn't take much intelligence to realize on which side the Swedes stood when you read about the other actions, such as the resistance training camps, the US special forces camps, the blockade runners, the White Busses, the Scandinavian Jews, Wallenberg and other diplomats in Budapest and those in Paris who saved the city from destruction. I can't understand what's so hard to get, Sweden was presented with an ultimatum, send ore or get invaded. It's not any different from the actions of any other neutral state, eg the Netherlands, Denmark or Norway before the invasions.

    Secondly, the incomes from the ore kept Sweden running during the war (ie the coal), but it didn't make it rich - on the contrary the war strangled the trade incomes and the ore was sold much cheaper than usual. That process had already started in the very early 20th century when the rivers of the north had been equipped with numerous hydropower plants which provided cheap electricity to the industry which was exponentially expanded in the period. Sweden became rich on the hard work of its people, not by the ore transports. Avoiding the destruction was a great help though, but that you can't held against it...

    Edited by Styrbiorn
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      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 11:45
    Well, russians still belive that they have liberated Europe. You have your own belives as good as their. It is strange that you dont see the things which even a kid can see and writes about them in homework.
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      Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 11:52
    Sorry, I lost the plot in the Baltic war of January 2005. To go back to my original question, who should apologise for what?
    [IMG]http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i137/komnenos/crosses1.jpg">
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      Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:07
    Originally posted by Mosquito

    Well, russians still belive that they have liberated Europe. You have your own belives as good as their. It is strange that you dont see the things which even a kid can see and writes about them in homework.


    Coming from one who doesn't care about sources and believes what he feels for, I don't care being called stupid, even if it's hidden. Since you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and google up the first & best site you can find (well, the first at least...) as your contribution to the discussion, we might as well end it here.
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      Quote Inquisitor Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:10
    One sould not refrain from apologyzing, if such apologyze were truly sincere.
    "I am the way, the truth and the life.
    No one comes to the Father but through me."

    --John 14:6
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      Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:46

    Originally posted by Styrbiorn



    Coming from one who doesn't care about sources and believes what he feels for, I don't care being called stupid, even if it's hidden. Since you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, and google up the first & best site you can find (well, the first at least...) as your contribution to the discussion, we might as well end it here.

     

    congratulations, you lie like a politician. it should be clear that nazi Germany did threaten other countries, but only countries that were not willing to cooperate on their own. Swedens military was nothign compared to Germans army, the Nazsi would not have wasted time and allow an anti-German country to stay indepednend within its sphere of influence but instead invaded at once and would not have wasted any time trading but just took what they wanted. given this, it renders your whole "sweden had no other choice" whining as garbage. and you still have failed to explain the sterilisations in context to Swedens "democratic" and according to you pro-allied nature...

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      Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:54

    Originally posted by Styrbiorn

    Coming from one who doesn't care about sources and believes what he feels for, I don't care being called stupid even if it's hidden.

    I didnt call you "stupid" and i hope that it is clear. Actually i really value your person and your opinions.



    Edited by Mosquito
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      Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:58
    Uuh, this is getting hot..
    An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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      Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 13:52
    Originally posted by Temujin

    congratulations, you lie like a politician. it should be clear that nazi Germany didthreaten other countries, but only countries that were not willing to cooperate on their own. Swedens military was nothign compared to Germans army, the Nazsi would not have wasted time and allow an anti-German country to stay indepednend within its sphere of influence but instead invaded at once and would not have wasted any time trading but just took what they wanted. given this, it renders your whole "sweden had no other choice" whining as garbage. and you still have failed to explain the sterilisations in context to Swedens "democratic" and according to you pro-allied nature...

    Are you claiming there were no threats, that the concessions made were of free will? Why don't you provide some sources?

    I suppose Winston Churchill was talking rubbish when he wrote this then:

    Our relations with Sweden require careful consideration. Germany acts upon Sweden by threats. Our sea power gives us also powerful weapons, which, if need be, we must use to ration Sweden. Nevertheless, it should be proposed, as part of the policy outlined in paragraph 2, to assist the Swedes so far as possible to dispose of their ore in exchange for our coal; and, should this not suffice, to indemnify them, partly at least, by other means. This is the next step.


    So, given you persist Sweden would be some kind of pro-German state, would you care to explain why...
    ...ball bearings where shipped to the British?
    ...Sweden lended 500,000+ tonnes worth of merchant shipping to the Allies?
    ...the actions of Swedish diplomats saved 130,000 people from the Nazi camps?
    ...Norwegian resistance forces were equipped by the Swedes?
    ...Norwegian regular forces were trained and equipped by the Swedes?
    ...the Americans were allowed to have secret bases within Sweden?
    ...Sweden stopped giving in to the German threats when it was clear Germany could no invade Sweden?
    ...why allied air forces were allowed to fly over Swedish territory, whereas the Germans were not?

    Also remember the Allies were no threat whatsoever to the Swedes, so ultimatums cannot be the answer. Hmm.

    Anyway, that being said, the Germans did have support by some high ranking people pre-war, of several reasons: mainly revanshism against the arch-enemy Russia (as said, the Russians were considered the really bad guys in the beginning, not the Germans) and economical dependence. Before the war all second-languge taught in school was German, the industry and army was based on German models, and Germany was basicly considered the model nation(I'm talking prior to the Nazis here - Nazism wasn't very well received so to speak) . This changed pretty quickly when the war got underhand and the Germans showed their true intentions though.



    Why you keep bringing up the sterilization program is a mystery to me, since it is completely irrelevant and independent regarding/to the war. However since you seem to be interested in the topic I'll give you some background. The program was a social-darwinistic abonimation and intended to remove hereditary diseases from the population, and most western countries had similar things, including the US. The Swedish version started in '34 and was voluntary until '41, and wasn't skipped until the seventies. It was a disgrace, about 60 000 people where sterilised, 90% women, main reason being mentally diseased but also - at least early - some were "racial hygiene" (don't know what that is, but I don't like the sound of it...) . I believe the government is planning to do some amendments, mainly funds I presume.

    Here's a study on the topic: http://msupress.msu.edu/bookTemplate.php?bookID=226

    Edited by Styrbiorn
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      Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:06

    so what, even the US made good money with nazi Germany before Pearl Harbour, includign the Bush family. Sweden simply was like Switzerland smart enough to use it's supposeldy neutral status to make money with both sides, like arm dealers always sell their wares to both sides to ensure they'll sell enough before the war is over...

    I just said the stance fo the Swedish governemnt at that time was pro-Nazi, you can claim the sterilizations happened due to "hereditary disseases"...well, from the POV of the Nazis, the Holocaust was the same, the dissease called Jew...there are also numerous Russians today praising Stalin and what he has done good for the USSR, but those Russians just don't belong to the minorities killed by him. either your naive or brainwashed enough to believe Sweden did nothign wrong at all...

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