Just read again, in November the Pope returned the relics of St. John Chrysostomos, which the Venetians stole in 1204, to the Patriarch of Constantinople (that’s the official title, I know it’s now called Istanbul).Which then reminded me of his numerous apologies for the crusades and so on. The Germans apologized, quite rightly, for the atrocities committed in WW2 to the Jewish and Eastern European people, and I seem to remember that some European or North-American statesmen apologized for slavery.

My questions: 1. Do you know of any similar apologies?  2. Do you think such apologies have any value or relevance for both sides, the former victims and the former perpetrators?

 3. If yes, who do you think should urgently apologize for which events?

4. How far should one go back in history hereby?

Hmm. I think Sweden didnt apologised yet for becoming rich on WW2 and cooperation with Nazists.

(Sigh) 60 years too late.

the people, that did not commit the atrocities should not apologize, but the stateman, on behalf of the state should make apologies.. especially if the atrocities were state-sponsored like WWII Nazis or Japanese

No individual should be expected to apologize for wrongs that they did not commit.  I live in the States and I've never killed an Indian (unless they were mis-marked and I killed one by mistake) and I've never owned a slave (I keep trying to buy one - but noone I know will sell their Canadian! ) 

As already mentioned - state sponsored stuff fall into a different category. States and their representatives should acknowledge when they have gone astray.  It is, however, a particularly difficult thing for many states to do - as the concepts that allowed the state to go astray in the first place are not immediately gone simply because the administration has changed.   For governments - international law does (did? ) cover the various possibilities - although there are countries today that flaunt international law at will.

Germany is an unusual case in both apologising for and offering compensation for the events of WWII beyond anything that was forced by the surrender.  Most nations barely meet the conditions of their surrender, and certainly never actively and of their own will take responsibility for their collective actions.  I believe that WWII saw - in Germany - a collective change in the way that one generation thought - and that those who survived the war were, in many cases, genuinely sorry that they had been led to where they were and regretted having been involved in some parts of the German War effort.  The Germans have in some cases, taken this to such an extreme that there has been discussion about how much collective guilt is enoug, and when it is time to stop flogging themselves for the crimes of their ancestors.  (I've decided - it's time - you can stop flogging yourselves now - as long as you don't forget and don't allow us to forget either.)

Such has not been the case in some other countries following WWII - where the general population never underwent this soul searching and the new governments never required them to - the attitudes and prejudices that allowed the events to come to pass are not only still there boiling under the surface but have been passed on to later generations.  To frame an apology would mean having to address these issues and admit that the attitudes have not changed.

There are other circumstances, time being one of the largest factors, where apologies become irrelevant.  Often those victimized by a government keep the memory of the pain alive long after all reason says that nothing constructive can be gained.  There are groups trying to extract reparations from Russia for damages done to them by the Tsarist regime, other groups seeking apologies from Turkey for events that occurred under the Ottoman Sultans, and so on around the world.  I think that after a century or so - it does become time to let go of the anger and look at where we are now and what can be done constructively to help everyone get on with their lives.  This - however - is a concept that I would only recommend applying after a century or so.

Poor little rich kid Harry has just gotten himself into another press scandal for his inconsiderate behavior on just such an issue.  His family has living subjects who suffered losses during the WWII.  Certainly while there are those living who have suffered loss,  the issues surrounding those histories shold be dealt with somewhat sensitively by those with such responsibilities.  Knowing that they know how to deal delicately with such matters will leave the rest of us to sit back comfortably and enjoy John Cleese in "The Germans" episode of Faulty Towers.

As a German, I’m glad that our soul searching continues, because I believe that the memories of the Holocaust and all the other atrocities must be kept alive by both sides, victims and perpetrators. For me, it is not vital to discuss the question of collective or individual guilt, I think that has now been settled, but to debate, how it could all happen, how a people that by the midst of the 20^th century had made enormous contributions to the advancement of global culture, could then fall back in a state of collective barbarism and do what they did. This is our then legacy, not to “flog ourselves for the deeds of our ancestors”, but trying to understand them (I still haven’t) and serve as warning for others. Not that anybody seems to listen

To the question of apologies, I think, it is not so much a question of time, but if the implications of historical events still have relevance today.

The effects of slavery or colonialism, for example, are still very much felt today, and especially the latter, will come to haunt the former major colonial powers in a big way.

So apologies were on order here, but I have the feeling that such could be a cheap way to clear one’s conscience. If apologies were followed by deeds, if, for example, the former colonial powers, whose wealth is based on the exploitation of their former possessions, would really try to rectify the consequences of their rule, and materially help those countries they left in a mess (especially in Africa), now that I would call an apology. Fat chance !

Hear, hear!

Congratulations Comnene, my thoughts exactly! Actually the Germans still feel strongly about this and have recognized their mistake and this shows to the kind of relationship that they are building with their neigbors. More over the state is taking measures to ensure that the crimes of the past are not forgoten but reminded in order to make sure that they won't happen again.

Kudos to them!

wll i've written a really long message but our glorious forum has eaten it...

oh how much i hate this statement...I hope you realize that eaxtly this way of thinking has let to the rise of eliteism and Naziism in Germany. "oh look how our superior country has maltreated our inferior neighbouring countries, let's apologize by the things inhabiting it..."
culture and civilization has nothing to do with a nation, neither can cultures or civilizations be ahead or behind any other cultures/civilizations. those are values that can't be measured, like art or beautiness, everyone likes different stuff, and everybody adopts the cultural achievements they want. that's why there are different kinds of music and food. and just because some people like Italian food better it has nothing to do with Italy as a nation. everyone could have "invented" it...

The Swede Erik Sigfrid Erickson who was active in German oil trade knew where all the oil refinerys in Germany was located so he let the Allies know where they where.No matter how good the Germans tried to camouflage them Allied bombers found them and destroyed them.

it's much more than that, there were also camps and not to mention Sweden did completely symphatize with nazi ideology. and if every country would have thought like that...a rather weak excuse...

Not the Swedish citizens?Or? 

 The letter of the Polish bishops to the German bishops  from 1965 which contained the sentence "..We forgive and ask for forgivness.."

this question is hard to answer because we never know how much citizens of a country actually believed in the racist teachings and which not, but apparently there were some rascist laws in Sweden at that time...

I have a book about the war that is nearly as old as the war itself.It states that most swedes were against Nazism.Everybody in Sweden that knew Erik(the guy who traded with the Nazis) walked over to the other side of the street if he came near them in public.( that was before they knew that he tricked the Germans).

Maybe we should start a thread about this.( we are goin a bit off topic here)

Oh how much I hate this practice of chopping sentences in half when quoting…….Firstly, I quite clearly and intentionally did not speak about Germany as nation, contributing to global culture, but about its people, which is a slight but important difference, and secondly, I did not imply, that any of their contributions were in any way superior or indeed inferior to any others. What I quite simply meant, and I don’t think that’s terribly difficult to understand, that I am rather mystified that my people on the one hand had indeed contributed to the processes of enlightenment and cultural progress and seemingly had adopted at least some of their findings, and then on the other hand allowed for the Nazis to happen. That Kant, Hegel, Marx etc., who did their bit for enlightenment ( in want of a better word) were German is coincidal, but they were Germans, as were Hitler, Himmler, Eichmann and all the other Nazis, and all the others who collaborated and looked on. Even if I were proud of  the above philosophers as being German and my fellow German countrymen, as Temujin seems to imply, the Nazis would have made me even prouder, when they burnt their books.

I am not saying that states that guarantee human rights to its people or practice religious and ethnic tolerance are in any way morally or racially superior to states that do not, as people and societies have the right to undergo their own development, but I think that, on the whole, human rights and tolerance are indeed advancements.

The question therefore is, why a nation that already had acknowledged the value of human rights and tolerance, then suddenly regresses into a state of barbarism and revoked all advancements made. That’s what puzzles me.

well just look at other great cultural nations like Iran or China, and what opressive regimes they have nowadays...

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Why don't you try a good source instead of the writings of some schoolkids I can't even read? "Completely sympatize..."

but you could udnerstand it's written by schoolkids?

Ignorance is bliss!

well, didn't you knew that in 1915 nothign happened to Armenians?

I have myself seen swedish made documentary about swedish sterilization program which was exactly the same as the one in Nazi Germany.

And affcourse Germany wouldnt be able to fight so long without buying raw materials from Sweden. Like it or not but Sweden made great buissnes on WW2.

From Nazi Germany to Sweden was going real stream of gold that Nazists stole from Jews and all the occupied countries, and from Sweden to germany the stream of iron. But as Wespasian said: pecunia non olet

Whenever Norwegian Commandos sabotaged german interests in norway they hid in Sweden and from Sweden they managed to get back to Britain.The Norwegians surrendered to the Germans after 2 months of fighting,but one Norwegian Infantry division still fought the germans for one month after the surrender.After they realized they could not win they marched over to Sweden.

During the war  55 000 norwegians civilians fled to Sweden and was allowed to stay there.

Sweden did some good things during the war too.

From: http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/ww2/ww23.htm - http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/ww2/w w23.htm

Many people say that Sweden's worst treachery during the Second World War was the extensive export of iron ore to the German weapon industry. When the world, during the Winter War period, understood how Hitler prepared for war and the danger for a new war became obvious, the Swedish iron ore became a big interest. The ore was regarded to be Hitler's Achilles heel, since he was so dependent on it. Sweden had the power to reduce the export, which would reduce Hitler's armament industry as well. Calculations say that the Swedish iron ore export lengthened the war with two years.In a message from Ralph Glynn, a member of the English parliament, he let us know just how dependent Germany was of Sweden. If we stopped our export it would lead to an end of the war within six months, and if German troops would attack Sweden, the English would come to our rescue. But the Swedish government had other plans in mind, since the iron ore financed much of the Swedish life during the war. We received coal in exchange, and what the iron ore was used for was not Sweden's problem, the main thing was that the Swedish people lived a good life.The Allied tried to get Sweden to reduce the export, and finally the country came to an agreement about a yearly iron export to Germany. The Germans were still co-operative, because Sweden had found a good way to cheat the Allied. Sweden did not keep any record of the export to Germany.When the war went worse for the Germans, Sweden turned its interest towards the Allied. Another thing the Germans had need of was ball bearings and Sweden had the best. Sweden evaded the trade agreement and smuggled goods to both Germany and England.In 1944, Sweden promised the Allied to reduce the ball bearing export as well, but found a loophole in the agreement and started to export ball bearing steal and ball bearing machines. Sweden was prepared to do everything, and made money of the war even though it condemned it.

Swedes warmed themselves with coal from occupied parts of Poland, while the Polish people suffered. Many people were against what was happening, but the risk to loose their jobs if they said anything was to big so they just pretended not knowing anything about it.

From: http://home.swipnet.se/~w-38797/specarbete/sweden03.htm - http://home.swipnet.se/~w-38797/specarbete/sweden03.htm

C. Sweden’s Cessation of Trade With Germany

I found also note about sources which you may find interesting:

1. Aalders, Gerard and Cees Wiebes. The art of cloaking ownership: the secret collaboration and protection of the German war industry by the neutrals: the case of Sweden. Amsterdam: Amsterdam University Press and the Netherlands State Institute for War Documentation, 1996. v, 210 pp.
Note: The authors deal with the activities of Swedish businessmen, representing "neutral" banks and corporations, who cooperated with their counterparts in Nazi-Germany; specifically, there is a focus on the Wallenberg family and their Stockholm Enskilda Bank. Cloaking, or hiding the true Nazi business ownership from Allies is noted, as is the way neutral banks, including Enskilda, helped to dispose of assets looted from occupied territory or Jews.

2. Aalders, Gerard and Cees Wiebes. "Stockholms Enskilda Bank, German Bosch and IG Farben: a short history of cloaking". Scandinavian Economic History Review 33, no.1(1985): 25-50.
Note: This article represents the authors' early research into the cloaking, or the hiding of Nazi business ownership from Allies, performed by neutral countries.

Aye, Austrians seems to belive that all the bad things during WW2 were commited by Germans and that they are innocent and blameless.

• In total 28.9tonnes of gold and 1.5 tonnes of coins were transferred from the German Reichsbank to the Swedish Riksbank
• the Commision found no indications that the Riksbank bought Jewish gold
• 16.4 tonnes may however have contained a small part confiscated or plundered private gold
• there is a single case of a Swedish statesman who suspected that the offered gold may have come from Jews or other prosecuted persons. This happened in 1944 when Sweden would receive a gold shipment earlier agreed upon. The trade was later concluded after German promises that the gold was not stolen from Jews or similar.

Concerning the fact that it was gold im really shocked that there was even 1 who didnt want it.

You are right and 2 quoted pieces comes from kid's homework. But 2 other are rather not childish.

So if you could explain:

1. Why is gold stolen from Poles, French, Norewgians, Danes, Greek's, Yugoslavians better than gold stolen fron Jews?(if you really belive that there was no jewish gold, i dont).

2. What was the role of Svenska Kullagerfabriken, Enskilda Bank of Stockholm and familly Wallenberg (there were actually more Swedes that were doing good buissnes on war)?

3. Is 30 tons of gold and coal from occupied countries bad payment for iron ore?

4. Did Sweden export iron ore to Germany even in 1944 when it was obvious that Germany wont invade Sweden (actually it was obvious even earlier)?

5. Can you say that Sweden did bad buissnes on suplying Germany with materials which Nazists needed to continue the war?

So basically you have confirmed my statement that Sweden became rich because of collaboration with Nazists.

congratulations, you lie like a politician. it should be clear that nazi Germany did threaten other countries, but only countries that were not willing to cooperate on their own. Swedens military was nothign compared to Germans army, the Nazsi would not have wasted time and allow an anti-German country to stay indepednend within its sphere of influence but instead invaded at once and would not have wasted any time trading but just took what they wanted. given this, it renders your whole "sweden had no other choice" whining as garbage. and you still have failed to explain the sterilisations in context to Swedens "democratic" and according to you pro-allied nature...

I didnt call you "stupid" and i hope that it is clear. Actually i really value your person and your opinions.

so what, even the US made good money with nazi Germany before Pearl Harbour, includign the Bush family. Sweden simply was like Switzerland smart enough to use it's supposeldy neutral status to make money with both sides, like arm dealers always sell their wares to both sides to ensure they'll sell enough before the war is over...

I just said the stance fo the Swedish governemnt at that time was pro-Nazi, you can claim the sterilizations happened due to "hereditary disseases"...well, from the POV of the Nazis, the Holocaust was the same, the dissease called Jew...there are also numerous Russians today praising Stalin and what he has done good for the USSR, but those Russians just don't belong to the minorities killed by him. either your naive or brainwashed enough to believe Sweden did nothign wrong at all...

you already provided the source yourself, that si Realpolitik. In Realpolitik, neutrality doesn't exist. as I already said Nazi Germany would have invaded Sweden if it would not have cooperated willingly. the sterilization program is testimony to this, the mass transportation and stationing of German forces on Swedish ground is. Sweden was not much different from Vichy France.

can you give me a source WW2 has happened? can you give me a source there was war between Germany and te Soviet Union? there was never a declaration of war so how are you supposed there was a war?

...but with the ideology of the Sweden, and that's the major point! Norway or Denmark even though considdered "nordic" by the Nazi ideology didn't had stuff like that, therefore they were invaded, Sweden however had already a long history of this racial pureness ideology, you said it yourself in another thread once, so you can't deny it.

and as you may have noted or not, I never present online sources, just this time because a) a friend brougth my attention to this a few days ago via this very link I've posted and b) to bring the issue to the attention of other forumers. the reason is simple, most online sources are written by students or lunatics or are just copied from books, and I only quote from books.

adn a further point not yet discussed, there was a really hgue number of Swedish volunteers fighting in SS Foreign legions (like Wiking and Nordland), yet I've yet to see big numbers of Swedes fighting for the allies.

Actually, I watched a swedish documentary last year where they showed documents that DID claim that people such as the "gypsies" were inferior to the average swede. In Jönköping, for instanse, all the people who belonged to "tattar"families were registered and considered more likely to commit crimes than others. The scientists suggested that the adult "tattare" (don't know the english word for it) all over Sweden should be sterilized and their kids should be taken from them, to be raised by "good" swedish families. And this did happen too, all over Sweden, more in some areas.

To answer the question in the topic: I think this period of sterilization(sp?) of mentally ill and also "gypsies" and "tattare" is something that Sweden should apologize for. To some extent the government has apologized, but not for all of it.

That is not quite correct. In fact Norway treated their "gypsies", samis and "tattare" exactly the same way as Sweden did.

Not that I know of. The last I heard of it, they were going to investigate the matter. And we all know what that means, coming from the swedish government: it will take forever before we get the results of the investigation. IF the investigation ever gets done...

Topic: "I do apologize for the Crusades!"

ok ok  as an Arab who are forgivers i would say

Apology Accepted

nice

 Hah, looks like you have nothing better to do than to look for my posts and not add anything. Guess you have no clue on the topic. Its ok, i understand.

Disclaimer: The following post has nothing to do with Sweden.

This is actually a very important move by the Pope. St. John Chrystosm and St. Gregory (I forget who the relics of the other saint were) are two of the most important saints of Orthodoxy and especially Greek Orthodoxy.

It takes a courages man to apologize for something he never had to, and for that I congratulate the Pope.

You're absolutely right and I wish that more people would follow his example.