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Styrbiorn
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Topic: "I do apologize for the Crusades!" Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:24 |
Que? Sweden didn't become rich on the trade. The aim of the Swedish government was to keep out of the war. It's responsibility was towards the Swedish people, and to an extend the Norwegian and Finnish. No other minor neutral state acted differently.
The stance fo the Swedish governemnt at that time was pro-Nazi |
On the contrary. Sources, please.
Don't bother, you won't find anything. The Wiesenthal Centre summed it up pretty neatly: Sweden, WWII
Or read something by John Lukacs.
Edited by Styrbiorn
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Temujin
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Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:37 |
you already provided the source yourself, that si Realpolitik. In Realpolitik, neutrality doesn't exist. as I already said Nazi Germany would have invaded Sweden if it would not have cooperated willingly. the sterilization program is testimony to this, the mass transportation and stationing of German forces on Swedish ground is. Sweden was not much different from Vichy France.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 14:48 |
"Source" means a written source which support your statements. I understand why you can't find any though, since your statements were nonsense.
You've to be kidding. The US had a sterilization program. Clearly, the US were closet Nazis who really were pro-German
Read this line carefully: the sterilization program had nothing whatsoever to do with the war.
There were no stationing of German forces in Sweden - only American were.
You still haven't given any explanation of all the points I made.
Edited by Styrbiorn
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Temujin
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Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 15:26 |
can you give me a source WW2 has happened? can you give me a source there was war between Germany and te Soviet Union? there was never a declaration of war so how are you supposed there was a war?
Read this line carefully: the sterilization program had nothing whatsoever to do with the war. |
...but with the ideology of the Sweden, and that's the major point! Norway or Denmark even though considdered "nordic" by the Nazi ideology didn't had stuff like that, therefore they were invaded, Sweden however had already a long history of this racial pureness ideology, you said it yourself in another thread once, so you can't deny it.
and as you may have noted or not, I never present online sources, just this time because a) a friend brougth my attention to this a few days ago via this very link I've posted and b) to bring the issue to the attention of other forumers. the reason is simple, most online sources are written by students or lunatics or are just copied from books, and I only quote from books.
adn a further point not yet discussed, there was a really hgue number of Swedish volunteers fighting in SS Foreign legions (like Wiking and Nordland), yet I've yet to see big numbers of Swedes fighting for the allies.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 15:59 |
can you give me a source WW2 has happened? can you give me a source there was war between Germany and te Soviet Union? there was never a declaration of war so how are you supposed there was a war? |
Provide sources for your statements. You must have gotten it from somewhere?
...but with the ideology of the Sweden, and that's the major point! Norway or Denmark even though considdered "nordic" by the Nazi ideology didn't had stuff like that, therefore they were invaded, Sweden however had already a long history of this racial pureness ideology, you said it yourself in another thread once, so you can't deny it. |
That reasoning is as nonsensical as it gets. Even if the Germans would've cared, they didn't even know of the program. The reason Sweden managed to stay out of the war was of the concessional politics of the government. ANY (serious) source on the war could tell you this. Try the link to the (Jewish) Wiesenthal Centre I gave you. Those people if anyone would be interested in the alleged pro-Naziness of the Swedes. Oh and by the way. how come the Swedes saved over 100,000 Jews (starting in 41) from the deathcamps if they agreed with the Nazi ideology?
The people sterilized were chiefly women with mental illnesses, not people with "wrong" skin colour (which was often the case with the American program). These kinds of programs were common in all of the democratic West. Further, it was something run by the upper echelon - the population didn't know about it until only a few years ago, till then it was held secret within the mental hospitals. I have never denied this disgraceful practice.
However the idea of racial pureness is wrong. There was a sort of racial institute which compared differences between the "races" - these didn't go about claiming the superiority of this or that race though, as certain other people did.
and as you may have noted or not, I never present online sources, just this time because a) a friend brougth my attention to this a few days ago via this very link I've posted and b) to bring the issue to the attention of other forumers. the reason is simple, most online sources are written by students or lunatics or are just copied from books, and I only quote from books.
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So you've based your knowledge in this case by writings of students and/or lunatics. I see. In that case you are forgiven.
Originally posted by Temujin
adn a further point not yet discussed, there was a really hgue number of Swedish volunteers fighting in SS Foreign legions (like Wiking and Nordland), yet I've yet to see big numbers of Swedes fighting for the allies. |
Yeah. 200. Huge. Two thirds of which joined only to fight the commies.
Many more Danes, Norwegians, British, Luxembourgians, Russians and Dutch served in the German armies. Clearly, these nations must've followed the Nazi ideology to their cores.
10,000 Swedes fought for the Finns, the RAF had many Swedish volunteers, and several thousands manned the ships lended to the allies going in convoy duty (iirc the casualities were some odd thousand, but don't quote me on that). There were also a large number who fought in the allied armies, but these were not kept track of. Further, half a thousand fought in the International Brigades against the Nazi-supported fascists in Spain. No Pasarn!
Edited by Styrbiorn
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Exarchus
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Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 16:16 |
I know I'm not going apologies for anything. I've done nothing and it's not in my intention.
Plus, even if the muslim empire was civilized and develloped. They
behaved like barbarians toward us (southern French) when we defeated
them at Toulouse (and later with the Franks at the battle of Tours)
they kept raiding and plundering the area (though we did the same to
northern Spain, but it was an answer), many people were killed by them
in surprise raids. Though it's the past, but I see no reason to apology.
Edited by Exarchus
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Vae victis!
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Exorsis C
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Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 02:17 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
There was a sort of racial institute which compared differences between the "races" - these didn't go about claiming the superiority of this or that race though, as certain other people did. |
Actually, I watched a swedish documentary last year where they showed documents that DID claim that people such as the "gypsies" were inferior to the average swede. In Jnkping, for instanse, all the people who belonged to "tattar"families were registered and considered more likely to commit crimes than others. The scientists suggested that the adult "tattare" (don't know the english word for it) all over Sweden should be sterilized and their kids should be taken from them, to be raised by "good" swedish families. And this did happen too, all over Sweden, more in some areas.
To answer the question in the topic: I think this period of sterilization(sp?) of mentally ill and also "gypsies" and "tattare" is something that Sweden should apologize for. To some extent the government has apologized, but not for all of it.
Originally posted by Temujin
...but with the ideology of the Sweden, and that's the major point! Norway or Denmark even though considdered "nordic" by the Nazi ideology didn't had stuff like that, therefore they were invaded |
That is not quite correct. In fact Norway treated their "gypsies", samis and "tattare" exactly the same way as Sweden did.
Edited by Exorsis C
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 13:04 |
Originally posted by Exorsis C
Actually, I watched a swedish documentary last year where they showed documents that DID claim that people such as the "gypsies" were inferior to the average swede. In Jnkping, for instanse, all the people who belonged to "tattar"families were registered and considered more likely to commit crimes than others. The scientists suggested that theadult "tattare"(don't know the english word for it) all over Sweden should be sterilized and their kids should be taken from them, to be raised by "good" swedish families. And this did happen too, all over Sweden, more in some areas.
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That's true. I'm still not sure whether it was something put into system or more local business. Has the government released any numbers and stats on this?
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Exorsis C
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Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 01:44 |
That's true. I'm still not sure whether it was something put into system or more local business. Has the government released any numbers and stats on this? |
Not that I know of. The last I heard of it, they were going to investigate the matter. And we all know what that means, coming from the swedish government: it will take forever before we get the results of the investigation. IF the investigation ever gets done...
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 04:52 |
Maybe with a change of government. I doubt the social democrats will do much, since it is not really good PR for them..
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Exorsis C
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Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 06:44 |
They probably won't, although I personally think it would be good PR for them to confess that they made mistakes in the past and apologize for those mistakes. IMO that's much more admirable than sticking their heads in the sand and pretend it never happened.
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cavalry4ever
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Posted: 24-Jan-2005 at 12:13 |
Exchange about Sweden is interesting, but I would still like to hear about Austria.
All this enthusiasm during "Anschluss".
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 22:43 |
There is absolutely no reason to apologize, it happened hundreds of years ago, and you are not in any way responsible for it.
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azimuth
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Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 00:32 |
Topic: "I do apologize for the Crusades!"
ok ok as an Arab who are forgivers i would say
Apology Accepted
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 00:34 |
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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azimuth
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Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 04:03 |
Originally posted by Christscrusader
nice
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Hah, looks like you have nothing better to do than to look for my posts and not add anything. Guess you have no clue on the topic. Its ok, i understand.
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Ptolemy
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Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 14:23 |
Disclaimer: The following post has nothing to do with Sweden.
This is actually a very important move by the Pope. St. John Chrystosm and St. Gregory (I forget who the relics of the other saint were) are two of the most important saints of Orthodoxy and especially Greek Orthodoxy.
It takes a courages man to apologize for something he never had to, and for that I congratulate the Pope.
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Exorsis C
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Posted: 31-Jan-2005 at 02:20 |
Originally posted by Ptolemy
It takes a courages man to apologize for something he never had to, and for that I congratulate the Pope. |
You're absolutely right and I wish that more people would follow his example.
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