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Do the red-haired originally come from Ireland?

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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do the red-haired originally come from Ireland?
    Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 12:22
Originally posted by pinguin

Mummies? I don't think is a good proof of red hair, because the body has suffered chemical transformations after dead. Native Americans in particular have hair varying from real shinny black to dark brown. In Egypt or China there is a real possibility blond or red haired "caucasians" existed one time or other.


Don't trust the hair colour of Egyptian mummies on sight. There's been quite a bit of chemicals involved...
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 13:24
Originally posted by Joinville

Originally posted by pinguin

Mummies? I don't think is a good proof of red hair, because the body has suffered chemical transformations after dead. Native Americans in particular have hair varying from real shinny black to dark brown. In Egypt or China there is a real possibility blond or red haired "caucasians" existed one time or other.


Don't trust the hair colour of Egyptian mummies on sight. There's been quite a bit of chemicals involved...


Such cautious considerations have been made from all scientists that have been checking the mummies here involved. Of course we - who haven't even read the professional reports  - would know better  than to trust their conclusions; stating that the hair-color of these mummies are genuine and natural. Impressive!


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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 03:53
Well I'm another one who thought the Irish had the reputation for red hair
and that the Scots were more dark-haired..!!
 
Originally posted by Brasidas

I believe the red hair gene is present in most european populations and is not distinct to just the British Isles and Scandinavia. I know that in Ireland there is a high number of people with black hair. I believe that the black hair gene is more prominent there than the red.
 
My grandmother was from Mani in the Southernmost point in the Peloponnese peninsula in southern Greece, and she had pure red hair.
She was in no way mixed with the Celts or any of the Nordic group. That area of Greece remained completely isolated until the past 10 years and they were never conquered by anyone, not even the Turks.
 
So it seems that the Red-Hair gene is just a caucasoid feature.
 
Clap Well said Brasidas.
 
I agree.  I also have dark red hair and I doubt very much that there
has been Celtic/Nordic admixture (and that's not saying I have anything
against them).  I personally know a fair few Greeks who have red hair also, and they all happen to have roots from Anatolia/Asia Minor (don't know if that's saying something) and no, none of them are related.
 
Someone mentioned that Turks with red hair may be descendants of the Celts/Galatians.  I thought that maybe the janissaries had something to do with it also. Wink
 
Originally posted by omshanti

My Father who was Iranian had red hair, although the redness of his hair was darker and closer to the real colour of red rather than to the ginger-redness of the Scots. In fact I have seen quite a few Iranians with red hair.
 
That's what I have noticed with the Greeks.. that it's a darker/deeper red than the ginger/orange/bright copper of the Scots/Irish etc.  And the other thing I have noticed is a lot of males, although they have dark hair, they have red beards.
 
 

 
 
 
 
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 11:26
I always see it as a Scot thing not Irish.
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 01:17
I think I read in Tacitus that the germans were red heads and the gauls blondes.  I have red and blonde in my beard so I would go with the idea that it is a nordic thing.  I should add that I had two great aunts with fiery red hair that were of germanic descent.  With that in mind Blonde hair mixing with black hair sounds like a very plausible theory.

Edited by Justinian - 12-Jul-2007 at 01:19
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 04:17
I think I read in Tacitus that the germans were red heads and the gauls blondes. 
 
Yes, but Galenus wrote that the Germans were reddish, , Jerome argued that it was the Franks who were reddish and several other writers tied in red hair specifically with Celts or Slavs.
 
Pliny on the other hand, provides us with the interesting info that some Gauls used to dye their hair red, and that this habit had been adopted by some Germanic tribes as well... and Martial added that many Romans used this red dye soap as well. Wink
 
And in the Rigsthula verse, from the Edda, it is described that the slave is dark-haired, the common farmer is ruddy and the Jarl and King are blonde and fairskinned. Of course, grave finds do not confirm this strange 'looks and social rank' connection at all...
 
The only thing the sources can tell us on haircolour is really that it is not a feature that can be used to identify any specific group. It occurs almost in any group on a small scale, and as far as I know, true red is rare everywhere.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 12-Jul-2007 at 04:57

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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:32
Ah, yes I forgot about the dying of hair.  Do you know if the romans described the dacians, and later the goths as similar in appearance in regards to the germanics such as hair color etc.?
 
Facinating how a societies' social classes could be categorized based on hair color I've never heard of that before.


Edited by Justinian - 24-Jul-2007 at 23:38
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 23:37
According to the Guinness Book of World Records (2007),the population with the most red heads if Scotland, the figure for that region being 1/8 of people.
 
As to whether these people originally come from Ireland, I have no idea.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Justinian

Ah, yes I forgot about the dying of hair.  Do you know if the romans described the dacians, and later the goths as similar in appearance in regards to the germanics such as hair color etc.?
 
Facinating how a societies' social classes could be categorized based on hair color I've never heard of that before.
 
The problem with descriptions of peoples by Roman authors is, that most of these authors were armchair scholars who based their neat and ordered views on the world on hearsay of others... So they tend not to agree on much... and to add to that problem: reality was of course far less neat than their descriptions suggested.
 
There is a really good article by todays leading expert on migration age nationalities Walter Pohl: Telling the Difference: Signs of Ethnic Identity, in: Strategies of Distinction: The Construction of Ethnic Communities, 300-800, Walter Pohl and Helmut Reimitz eds. (Leiden, Boston, Cologne, 1998), pp. 17-70.
 
In this he takes all sorts of factors previously used as 'distinctive' for a people: hairstyle and colour, dress, language, weapons, habits, and shows how they probably where not nearly as defining as historians of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries have made believe. Many factors can be proven to be due to factors like geography and class (in the east, horses were more readily available, and so more warriors rode them, but in the west they were expensive and so only for the rich; Bows function better in dry climates, and so are more common amongst Steppe peoples; Topknots were worn by the upper class only, and the custom was copied by the lower classes of other peoples...)
And in part, the Roman writers were plain wrong (such as the beards: Barbarians were always described as having beards, but bodies from the period recovered intact, such as peat-bodies, hardly ever have beards...)
 
It is really a fascinating article. I can recommend it very much. Wink


Edited by Aelfgifu - 25-Jul-2007 at 08:23

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:00
The Scottish had the most red heads. All over Europe the Celts with dark hair were known as the "dubh" Celts, the "dark ones". To welcome the first "tall, dark stranger" still is common at hogmanay, the new year's festival in Scotland, so having red hair was not a class thing. Yes the Celtic warriors did dye their hair with female urine and had wild hairstyles similar to the punks of today.

The men got turned on by red hair and women with natural bright red hair in particular were in demand. The Egyptian women used to and still dye their hair with henna that produces a red color.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:05

so having red hair was not a class thing.

Of course not. Having red hair is a genetical thing, how can it be a class thing?
 
Yes the Celtic warriors did dye their hair
And so did the Germans, the Gauls and in some cases, the Romans themselves, or so the writers of the time tell us. That is precisely my point. If everyone does it, it cannot be a cultural definer of a single group, can it?
 
By the way, how can it possibly matter if it is womens urine? I'd say using horsepiss is far more practical, as there is so much more of it in a single catch... Wink


Edited by Aelfgifu - 25-Jul-2007 at 09:14

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 09:18
To welcome the first "tall, dark stranger" still is common at hogmanay, the new year's festival in Scotland


Curious, in Wales this is on Boxing day.

Edit: Or has my memory lapsed and it was New Years day afterall? All i renember with absolute certainty was that it was always the same cousin at my granma's house who got that treatment, i bet he did it on purpose :p


Edited by Cywr - 25-Jul-2007 at 09:19
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 00:39

Hogmanay is the Scots word for the last day of the year and the celebration of the New Year (Gregorian calendar). The official date is 31 December. However this only the start of the celebration which lasts through the night until the morning of Ne'erday (1 January).

Why women's urine? All sorts of better ways of collecting it than standing behind the ass of a horse I suppose. The warrior was the cream of society and women competed for their attention. The men (or their loved one)  mixed the urine with clay to make the hair stand up in spikes. Many Roman writers commented on how that made them look fearsome in battle, for the hairs colors varied from white to yellow to red to purple. Strange the same style is common today.

Both men and women wore bright colored clothing and jewellery, the most famous ornament was the gold torc around the neck. Above all they were cattle farmers that lived in a cowboy style rural society. Like the cowboys of today the cowboys then wore tall hats but made of birch bark. The women wore tall conical hats of beaver fur... Don't get me started!
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2007 at 01:02
Originally posted by uligen

To me, it seems that Ireland is the no.1 country with redheads. But where did the red-head start? Britain also has many, but do they originally come from Ireland? Can every red-haired person trace their gene back to Ireland?


No. The origins of red hair are a total mystery and distribution is much more widespread and complex than one might imagine - historically it seems to have been present in Eastern Europe around the Danube, Iran, India, and even among Far Eastern Caucasoid groups like the Tocharians. Strangely enough it's even found among the Berbers of North Africa.

Red hair is actually more common in northern England than in Ireland or Scotland - the highest incidence in the world is northern England.

Edited by edgewaters - 26-Jul-2007 at 01:05
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 21:19
So, is the red hair traits come from North of Britain? Are there anywhere else?
 
Kind of off topic, but I heard that Rh- factor in blood were originated in the border between France and Germany...
     
   
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 01:57
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by Justinian

Ah, yes I forgot about the dying of hair.  Do you know if the romans described the dacians, and later the goths as similar in appearance in regards to the germanics such as hair color etc.?
 
Facinating how a societies' social classes could be categorized based on hair color I've never heard of that before.
 
The problem with descriptions of peoples by Roman authors is, that most of these authors were armchair scholars who based their neat and ordered views on the world on hearsay of others... So they tend not to agree on much... and to add to that problem: reality was of course far less neat than their descriptions suggested.
 
There is a really good article by todays leading expert on migration age nationalities Walter Pohl: Telling the Difference: Signs of Ethnic Identity, in: Strategies of Distinction: The Construction of Ethnic Communities, 300-800, Walter Pohl and Helmut Reimitz eds. (Leiden, Boston, Cologne, 1998), pp. 17-70.
 
In this he takes all sorts of factors previously used as 'distinctive' for a people: hairstyle and colour, dress, language, weapons, habits, and shows how they probably where not nearly as defining as historians of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries have made believe. Many factors can be proven to be due to factors like geography and class (in the east, horses were more readily available, and so more warriors rode them, but in the west they were expensive and so only for the rich; Bows function better in dry climates, and so are more common amongst Steppe peoples; Topknots were worn by the upper class only, and the custom was copied by the lower classes of other peoples...)
And in part, the Roman writers were plain wrong (such as the beards: Barbarians were always described as having beards, but bodies from the period recovered intact, such as peat-bodies, hardly ever have beards...)
 
It is really a fascinating article. I can recommend it very much. Wink
Thanks for the info.  That does seem like a very informative article, I'll have to read it.Thumbs%20Up
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