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Lions vs. Tigers
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Catlion 
Knight 
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
 Topic: Lions vs. TigersPosted: 19-Aug-2015 at 07:22 |
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In the Roman Proske's account the lion was hurt by the tamer just when it was winning the fight. This has been extensively discussed in other forums.
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J.A.W.
Consul 
Joined: 07-Apr-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 320 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 01:07 |
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Agreed C, Tigris presents ( IMO) as disingenuous in his claims.. Obviously, - & as has been acknowledged - the fundamental physiological similarities & possible size range/personality variations between lion & tiger mean that any given encounter has the potential to offer favourable circumstances for one particular individual cat over another.. Yet, as Prime has thoroughly listed, going by the historical record, & expert appraisal both - in actual experience - combat between these big cats generally favours the maned cat's significantly advantageous attributes, in the main. Tigris needs to forgo the faux emotive smokescreen & accept the science here.. |
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Majingilane
Janissary 
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 08:55 |
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What science? There is no science involved in this discussion, aside from a few, reliable historical records, because the mayority of these "accounts" for each side, are merely old ladies tales, manufactured to favore the tellers favorite cat. Now, while I can take into consideration these accounts that at least show the general thinking of some people, the "all powerful lion" is going to have it very difficult against a rival 40 kg(or more) heavier than him, and that is also science or, better yet, just nature.
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 13:16 |
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Majingilane, you have not read the posts above. Tigresses and leopards usually kill male tigers. These are extremely vulnerable at the throat. Speed is the key factor not a 40 kgs. difference that will turn the bigger and fatter cat more clumsy and less agile.
Before giving your opinion, you should read "carefully" the 23 pages above. |
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 13:53 |
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I read carefully everything.
But if you believe that bollocks of "Tigresses and leopards usually kill male tigers" we have some differences then. Male Leopards are my favorite big cat, but I'm not so delusional as to think a big 90 kg leopard can kill a 250 kg tiger. The same goes for a tigress, because there is something that's called sexual dimorphism, and one of the things that characterize this is a much bigger male, it can be a 100 kg difference and even more. So neither of those instances happen "usually" as you point it out. It may had happen in rare, exceptional encounters, like some of the posts show but it is not "usually". A few instances of it happening do not make a norm out of it.
Male lions do not run down their prey, that's why zebras or ñues are too fast for them. That's why coalition of males hunt buffalos, that are much slower. And that's also why a lone male won't hunt buffalos. So, male lions don't have the speed factor to their favor. And male lions are the definiton of clumsy. Did you ever watch a lion cross a river, or jump to try to avoid the water and falling down, or the huge amounts of trouble they have coming down from a tree? Tigers are not "fatter". I don't know where you got that. If anything they may be even more muscular than lions, who are more on the lean side. And tigers are much more agile than male lions, something that you can see in the prey that each hunts and the agility of either when it comes to jump, run down prey, or fight against other males. Edited by Majingilane - 20-Aug-2015 at 13:55 |
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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J.A.W.
Consul
Joined: 07-Apr-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 320 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 17:44 |
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M, I think you have to update your education on lion behaviour..
Male lions are ejected from the pride on reaching sexual maturity.. they then operate on their own behalf, most successfully in coalition with other males in similar circumstances.. They most certainly do hunt, & are in fact, the most capable large terrestrial predators on the planet.. they have the authority to select their choice of available prey species, & are far from "clumsy" - nor do they fear crossing rivers, even those with large resident crocs.. As noted, the essential physiological/morphological similarity between lions & tigers has been scientifically established, & it is the external ( mane) & environmental/behavioural differences which are the most marked.. These differences, well listed in Prime's comprehensive postings, are largely in the lion's favour, when it comes to confrontation. They are also well noted by those who have worked extensively with these big cats, & confirm the lion as the more 'kingly' - in manner.. |
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 18:22 |
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I never said they don't. They are excellent hunters indeed when they work together as a coalition or with females. They are much more limited when hunting alone. In each case, wheter it is as a coalition or alone, males hunt most usually buffalos, because it has a lot of meat to provide for all the males and because it is not fast, so they don't have to run it down. The "choice" they make it's due to what they need to survive and what they can catch, that's why you won't see coalicions following herds of ñu, or impala or zebras.
I never said they fear crossing rivers. But lions are clumsy, probably the clumsiest of all felines. They lack balance and many times you'll see them lose balance or even fall over when walking in unleveled terrains. And I'm not saying this to speak bad about lions, simply compared to other big cats like leopards or tigers, male lions are less agile and generally clumsier.
The mane is just a lot of hair and it has a specific purpose. To serve as a signal towards females, that said lion is a good prospect of a mate and to indicate other males of the health of the lion. This was establish in a study by Packer, I'm sure you've already seen it. The mane purpose as an element of defense in fights is only secondary. The environmental differences are merely that. Different. Neither environment makes a better fighter. The behavioural differences are not so marked, with exception of the social life. Both coalitions of lions and dominant male tigers patrol their homeranges to guard off intruders, fight against invaders and take care of one or several females within their territories and their cubs, defending them and even some times bringing them food. In this sense, lions and tigers are not so different as you may think.
That is merely a personal, subjective opinion that has nothing to do with wild animals and the behaviours that keep them alive.
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 19:05 |
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The mane is to provide protection to the neck. Just tell me a case of a lioness or another felide killing a maned lion by a neck bite.
Instead, in the case of tigers there are plenty of cases. Your theories do sexual signal as predominant do not work when fighting. Then the mane is crucial, not only against a tiger or a leopard or a lioness, but even against a grizzly. Majin, read again Prime's posts without vias and you'll understand what I mean. |
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 19:20 |
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Speed is crucial. A female leopard has killed a polar or a grizzly. More often is the case of cougars killing grizzlies, some time dying both contenders.
In all encounters I have seen between two tigers, the smaller has emerged as the winner. Tigers have an optimal weight, same as humans, above which the animal turns out to be a complete disaster as a fighter. The old Amurs never succeeded in the Korean arena against the lions, also performing far worst than the Bengals. |
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 19:49 |
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You won't find. You know why? Because lions attack the lower back of their opponents. Lions don't fight to the death alone, one on one. They fight with their brothers, surrounding the rival male and attacking him in the back, damaging his spine. If the mane was really a method of defense, then they would attack said place constantly. After all, why would a lion have a big patch of hair to defend himself of attacks if there isn't any attack to it? The answer is what I already said. Mate and sexual signaling, and secondary element of defense.
What makes you think that a tiger of 260 kg doesn't have an "optimal weight"? You may be correct when referring to circus animals, but I talk about wild animals, where they have the best weight they can sustent and there is no room for any excessive fat. A tiger out of shape simply can't be a dominant tiger, that's why the ones who are dominant over a territory are peak especimens. Like I've already said, I don't have any bias. But that does not make me blind or stupid. I take into consideration everything that is posted, but the mayority of the accounts simply have no substence in the wild. If leopards could so easily kill tigers they wouldn't need to take their kills up the trees. And if leopards could so easily kill male tigers, then with much more reason female leopards could easily kill the much smaller and maneless male leopard when he tries to steal her food or kill her cubs. But it doesn't happen. If tigresses could kill males so easily, then there would be very few dominant tigers alive, since any male that didn't sired the female's cub will try to kill them. The tigresses would kill said males, if what you claim is true, but it doesn't happen. So, even when artificial conditions created by man can lead to some of the things these accounts show, this does not creat a norm in the wild. It simply doesn't work that way. Edited by Majingilane - 20-Aug-2015 at 19:50 |
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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J.A.W.
Consul
Joined: 07-Apr-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 320 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 21:21 |
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M, it seems you fail to comprehend..
Lion & tiger morphological physiology is so similar ( even experts examining skinned examples require sophisticated tests to really tell them apart) as to mean that there is likely to be as much individual body ( outer skin/colouration excepted, of course) difference between one lion & another - as between any given lion or tiger.. It is thus - simply nonsense - to claim that lions are "clumsy", or "slow" by comparison to tigers.. Large male lions, esp' when in groups - in their natural habitat - can & do dominate other animals,( no bears or tigers could compete in African lion country) & they can choose what ever prey is to hand, or to live off hyena kills - if they wish.. I suggest you view some of the video showing male lions running down hyenas ( & even outsprinting cheetahs) - for lethal purposes.. they are fast when they want to be.. & see some circus footage for lion agility, I have enjoyed seeing such feats as tightrope walking by full grown lions - done live.. Likewise, in captivity, social lions dominate the non-social species.. The 'kingly' attributes of lions have been observed & recorded for millennia, whereas the tiger is usually referred to as 'sneaky & treacherous', as Prime has repeatedly noted. While these traits are interpreted in human morality terms, they are in fact an environmental life-style process, albeit these characteristics do carry across with these cats when living in human service.. You are also incorrect on the value of the mane.. It is apparent that a large maned lion will not succumb to a throat grab strangulation hold - like a lesser beast.. & lions well know this.. I suggest some more research & fewer groundless assumptions on your part - might be helpful M.. Edited by J.A.W. - 20-Aug-2015 at 21:36 |
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 20-Aug-2015 at 22:21 |
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That is a personal, subjective interpretation, generally based in the observers liking or not of each animal. We often make the mistake of giving human characterizations to the behaviour of wild animals. Lions are the more social cat, so it's no surprise that many find them more appealing but it doesn't change the fact that these characteristics are just opinions.
Lions don't usually succumb to throat bites because they direct their attacks to the lower back. They have the luxury to do that because they attack with more numbers. And the mane has little to do with this, since Tsavo lions, that have no manes, show this behaviour as well, something noted in Packer's study. To this day I have only seen a picture of one case where a lion died in a one on one fight, and the mane proved to be no help at all.   And one more thing. There are no "lesser beasts". You can like one more than the other, but all animals are precious and having a favorite shouldn't mean that the others deserve to be treated as garbage, as often happened in this thread with the tiger.
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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J.A.W.
Consul
Joined: 07-Apr-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 320 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 04:01 |
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Where is the attribution that verifies the pic of the dead lion you posted M?
Without that.. it is simply another dead lion, with no authentication.. & yes, all living - must surely die.. & if Richard, mighty warrior King of England was known as "Lion Heart" all those centuries ago.. ( not a "sneaky, treacherous tiger") Clearly you have not read & understood the gist of the posts that explain the connection, I suggest you do so, if you can.. & learn.. ..otherwise you simply continue to reveal your agenda.. Lions (like all cats) do dominate lesser beasts.. its a natural fact.. & they attack those creatures where they can best gain advantage over them.. & manes effectively prevent the option of a throat bite.. FYI, emotive terms such as "like" just do not enter into it.. Edited by J.A.W. - 21-Aug-2015 at 04:11 |
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Be Modest In Thyself..
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 05:56 |
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Some lions have learnt to attack certain vital parts to avoid the mane. At least for tigers the mane operates as a true shield. Countless of vids show this.
Majin, haven't you asked yourself how is that male lions are the only bigcat not almost exclusively killing by a throat bite? Think of the rest of cats, cougars, jaguars, leopards, tigers, etc. always killing their rivals through neck bites. The most accepted theory is that lions developed their manes to protect their vital areas from the bites of other lions, hyenas and lionesses, in this order. Of course, such an important physical attribute must always have a secondary added role of attracting those females wanting to cross with the best genes, but this is always something added a posteriori. |
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 06:03 |
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Majin, which was your allias in Yuku? Just for curiosity. Do not be afraid since we are not as biased as in other forums dominated by tigerfans (Carnivora, Ava, Premier League, etc) where if you expressed freely your opinions you were surely banned forever.
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 08:41 |
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I wasn't on Yuku. I only heard of it because people always mention it, but the first forum I was part of is Carnivora.
And I don't know where you get Carnivora is dominated by Tiger fans, Taipan is most biased towards lions.
Chinese monks developed their Kung fu techniques including tigers and leopards, not lions. Does this make this felines "better".? Incas, Mayas y Aztecas, natives from central and south america considered the Jaguar as a god, and literally worshipped them, considering to be Jaguar-like in their martial feats. Does this make the Jaguar "better"? North american natives and vikings had the highest of regards for bears or wolves, using their skins in battle, ane even names are born through this "worship" for the strenght of these animals, like Berserker(bear warrior). Does this make the bears or the wolves "better"? Lions gang up on their rivals, instead of fighting to the death one on one. ¿Do I take this as evidence of their "cowardice", like you try to make it look with the tiger's natural instincts?
Here you have the link to the dead lion: http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/blog/posts/battle-of-the-two-kings-at-kings-pool
I already answered that. The mayority of cats reach for the throat because they fight to the death one on one. Lions don't, they prefer to gang up, avoid the teeth of their rivals and bite them in the lower back.
Neither hyenas nor lionesses attempt to bite at the throat of males. This refers to the study made by Packer: http://www.minnesotaalumni.org/s/1118/content.aspx?sid=1118&gid=1&pgid=1574 "Despite Packer’s long list of accomplishments, the recent mane experiment was what caught the public’s imagination. It began in 1996, with Packer and West exploring the mystery of the lion’s mane. They first considered that the mane might protect a male lion in fights with other males. Yet their own observations suggested the neck wasn’t often a target, or even especially vulnerable. So the researchers returned to Evolution 101 and considered whether the mane was a product of sexual selection—a highly evolved babe magnet." "After many encounters with lions of different prides (they couldn’t fool the same lion twice) Packer and West concluded mane color was a signal of fitness, intimidating male rivals and luring breeding females." Here is the study, called Wounding, mortality and mane morphology in African lions, Panthera leo: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347205004203 "A protective role for the lion's mane has long been assumed but this assumption has never been tested. We compared patterns of injury, mane development and adult mane morphology in a population of African lions and found no compelling evidence that the mane conferred effective protection against wounding. The mane area was not a specific target of attacks, and injuries to the mane area were not associated with higher mortality than other injuries." "We conclude that, although the mane may have conferred protection during the early evolution of the trait, protection appears to be secondary to the strong sexually selected advantages of the mane as a condition-dependent ornament." "Experiments with model lions also indicated that the mane area was not the primary target during attacks." "males bit the models on the hindquarters in all nine experiments involving an attack. In the three experiments using the mounted male with a sheepskin mane, males attacked the mount on its lower back (Grinnell et al. 1995). In the four experiments with two maned models, males attacked first on the back (N ¼ 2), the base of the tail (N ¼ 1) or the hindleg (N ¼ 1)." The same happened when maneless lions were subject to the attack, where theorically the throat would be vulnerable, but: "We could perform only two tests with a ‘maneless’ male model (where the mane area was fully exposed), but the males first attacked the model on the back in both cases." "Although exaggerated manes are associated with significant heat-related costs, including decreased food intake and increased proportions of abnormal sperm (West & Packer 2002), it has been argued that the benefits of protection are sufficient to explain its evolution (Withgott 2002), and it is reasonable to assume at least some minimal protection by the mane. However, our results reveal only limited evidence of this protection" "Our results suggest that the current protective benefits of the mane are minimal" "Regardless of the lion mane’s original function, protective benefits are not sufficient to explain the maintenance of the trait; rather, the key benefit of the mane appears to derive from its function as a signal of male condition." Like I said, it's not just my thinking of it, but the results of especific studies made in the wild. |
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 09:25 |
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"Neither hyenas nor lionesses attempt to bite at the throat of males."
Of course, because of the existence of the mane, are you kidding? |
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 09:27 |
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"And I don't know where you get Carnivora is dominated by Tiger fans, Taipan is most biased towards lions."
After my first post, just reproducing one of Prime's posts, I was definitively banned. |
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Majingilane
Janissary
Banned Joined: 10-Jun-2015 Location: Argentina Online Status: Offline Posts: 26 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 09:55 |
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No, I'm not. The mane has little to do with how and where lions are attacked, rather it comes down to numbers. That's all. Don't make me write down everything again. Download the pdf, read Packer's study, where your enquiry is especifically answered.
That might have to do with Prime's extreme rudeness when he was there. People tend to not take you seriously if they are insulted and mocked, especially the admins, and that is exactly what he did. To add to that, it is hard to take seriously Prime's info, especially the ones from old journals and the like, mostly because it can't be checked and it is not proved true by any scientific evidence. So that might have to do with your banning, but what do I know. I only post there from time to time. But Taipan is biased against tigers, or at least he makes great efforts to portray himself like that, completely ignoring posts about tigers and downtalking poster like Pckts who have real knowledge about wild tigers. Do you know what info he accepts? The one posted by Asadas, a lion poster, who is often wrong in his assumptions and is constantly rebuked.
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‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows...those that do not run are removed’
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Catlion
Knight
Joined: 19-Feb-2015 Online Status: Offline Posts: 75 |
Posted: 21-Aug-2015 at 11:17 |
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Parker's theory is this, a theory.
The question is: what is first the protective role of the mane or the signal for females? Everything points out to the first possibility. The second, defended by Parker (he does not deny the protective role of the mane to a certain extent) is more attractive for him as a researcher, since it would place him as a more important researcher who contradicts the to the moment dominant opinion. But reality is that a thick mane is almost impenetrable for any bigcat teeth or even grizzly. Magin, be sensible and re-read Prime's posts. |
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