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Lions vs. Tigers

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Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
Posted By: pekau
Subject: Lions vs. Tigers
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:24

The Romans brought some tigers from Asia and made them to fight against the lions. This fight was not scientific investigation, but merely an entertainment for the Roman citizens.

According to their records, tigers won more than lions in terms of statistics. But do you think that's true? Are tigers stronger than lions? Or did the Romans intentionally weakened the lions for entertainment? What do you think?

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Replies:
Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:30
Overall - Tigers. They have extremely powerful forelimbs (more so than a lion) and are far more agile and athletic. I question the ability of a Sumatran Tiger though - being only about 100kg to a male lion's 220kg...Have you seen the crocodile-tiger fights on land Pekau?

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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:34
From my childhood until now I always doubt about power of lion over tiger. I am sure now Tiger are more powerful than lion.

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:36
Originally posted by Knights

Overall - Tigers. They have extremely powerful forelimbs (more so than a lion) and are far more agile and athletic. I question the ability of a Sumatran Tiger though - being only about 100kg to a male lion's 220kg...Have you seen the crocodile-tiger fights on land Pekau?
 
No, have you? Do you know where I could see it in internet? Tiger used to by my favorite animal... Smile
 
I heard that lions tend to fight only when they are hungry or when they are threatened. When they finish the meal, the lion (male) just lay around and don't even bother to catch the rabbit that just walk pass the lion...LOL


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Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:16
I think a male lion would of won. They are much more used to fight.
 
They always have to protect their territory against rival male lions.
 
 
 


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Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 15:18

Besides. lions don't get the title King for nothing.



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They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou


Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 16:51
I agree with Cent. A male lion is built to fight, and fight often. Tigers, while large and probably more powerful, do not fight as often as lions, so I think a male lion would win in a fight. 

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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:02
I've seen only 1 animal fight video in my life - a female lion vs a female tiger fight staged by Japanese "scientists" - and it made me angry so I decided to never again watch something like that.  Anyhow, it was a to-the-death fight & the result was quite even; both animals mortally wounded each other & died in separate corners of the cell while pausing for rest.  I discourage any interest in this subject.
 


Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:22
I saw the same video Dead


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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:10
What do you think about Liger much bigger than both.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:37
Originally posted by Hellios

I've seen only 1 animal fight video in my life - a female lion vs a female tiger fight staged by Japanese "scientists" - and it made me angry so I decided to never again watch something like that.  Anyhow, it was a to-the-death fight & the result was quite even; both animals mortally wounded each other & died in separate corners of the cell while pausing for rest.  I discourage any interest in this subject.
 
 
Like Romans' gladiators... I don't see how deathmatch became popular from my point of view...Dead
 
I didn't know that Japanese scientists could actually do that. Tigers and rare species, and I don't think biologists could get permission to experiment a deathmatch between tiger and lion... Deadmeh, I will watch it soon.
 
And I thought liger was just a myth. Holy crap, this is awkward...Sleepy


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:39
Originally posted by Cent

I think a male lion would of won. They are much more used to fight.
 
They always have to protect their territory against rival male lions.
 
 
 
 
Like every other species, yes. Tigers need to protect their terrirory and against rival male tigers... Many, if not all, males have this situations. Heck, even humans do that as well...LOL


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 23:40
The Japanese kill whales for "research" too...

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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 15:33
An average tiger is much more bigger and powerful than an average lion.

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Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Cent

I think a male lion would of won. They are much more used to fight.
They always have to protect their territory against rival male lions. 
So male tigers don't tend to fight? Yes male lions do defend their territory by fighting, but so do male tigers. However, most know that male lions do not usually participate in the hunts - that is left to the lionesses. A fight does not come up every day, so the male lion can just patrol and mark his territory, while the lionesses are doing the dirty work.
In tigers -who are generally solitary- the male cannot rely upon the female to hunt for him. He must not only hunt for himself, but defend, patrol and mark his territory at the same time. This is a lot more strenuous and time consuming.
When it comes down to the hard facts and physical behaviours and adaptations that would prove advatagous over the other, the tiger comes out on top.
 
Let's look at the lion's statistics first.
 
African Lion
Wieght - Up to 220kg (Male)
Speed - 80kph (Probably 70kph max for a male)
Adaption for fights - large mane to look imposing as well as to protect vital organs in the neck and head, plus the typical shared characteristics with tigers - long, sharp canines, retractile claws, bulk, large batting paws.etc.
Typical prey - Wildebeest, Cape Buffalo, Zebra
 
Tiger
Some subspecies: Siberian Tiger - Up to 350kg and 2.5 - 3m long
Bengal Tiger - Up to 230kg and 3m long
Sumatran Tiger - About 120kg and up to 2.4m long
Shared Adaptions - Speed (70kph), superb jumping ability due to enhanced hind leg muscles, longest canines of all cats, huge paws, powerful front legs for pulling when running, and taking down prey single-handedly, paralytic roar.
Typical Prey - Deer, Water Buffalo, Wild Pig
 
Now if we compare those statistics we discover that the tiger, overall is larger and more agile than a typical male lion. With the protection of the mane comes inmaneouverability, extra baggage. One particular that would probably prove the edge for the tiger is the extremely powerful front legs it has. They are used for pulling the tiger forward in pursuit and are neccessary for taking down large prey. They agility would also be a major factor.
 
If you have ever seen a tiger fight in the wild, they fight in a very different fashion to male lions. While lions tend to bat at each other and try to claw each others faces, also trying to get a bite to the others back or neck, tigers have a much more fierce and tiring approach to conflict. Tigers wrestle like house cats, locking together and rolling around in a frenzy in an attempt to tire, claw, shred and tear at the other. While lion fights end in death rarely, tiger fights are responsible for a much higher percentage of male tiger's deaths.
 
My conclusion is that the tiger would cause fatal wounds to the lion, but in doing so cop several nasty lacerations itself. The tiger would win, while the lion would die. The combination of agility, raw power and muscular strength and size would be on the tiger's side.
 
Note: In India's Gir Forest, the last refuge of Asiatic lions in the world, tigers have been known to have killed the lions in fights.
 
And in response to Pekau, yes I have seen footage of a tiger taking down or fighting a crocodile on several occasions. Once on land, where the tiger obviously had the advantage and drove the croc away, and another in the water (a river) where the [exceptionally large male Bengal may I say] tiger killed a small crocodile (about 2m long). This is still a hefty effort considering the crcocodile was in its element.
 
- Knights -


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Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2012 at 00:55
Here's a some Animal Experts that say that lions usally always win against the tiger.

The Memoirs of Cleopatra
In the Roman gladitorial day's Lions took on tigers, bears, bulls, and wild boars. Usually the lion won. page 284” (BOOK)
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1.Animal Expert Dave hoover said lions majoritly always win against tigers.
2.Indian zooligist an big cat Expert Jam sahib says lions always win.
3. Animal Trainer and Expert Louis roth favors the lion over the tiger in a fight.
4. Animal Expert Alfred court favors the lion over the tiger in a fight.
5.Animal expert John helliot favor’s the lion over the tiger in a fight.
6.Animal Expert Dave salmoni says h’ed give the edge to a lion in a fight with a tiger.
7.Animal Expert and God father predator tamer Clyde beatty says lions will win more fights with tiger’s.
8.Animal Expert an tamer Oliver goldsmith ranked the lion over the tiger.
9.Animal Expert an Tamer Courtney cooper said lions usally win more in tiger fight’s.
10.Animal Expert Geroge buffon picked lions over tigers in a fight.
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And here's some real documented accounts, of lions killing tigers 1 on 1.
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1.Gieniuss books/Animal facts, Lion named Nero killed Tim the tiger in an australian zoo.(Documantry)
2.1936 Agartala zoo in bengal, a lion kills a tiger.(Local news report)
3.1935 Sikestonians saw a lion kill a tiger in a local town circus act.(Documentry)
4.1934 2 tigers died, In the movie devil tiger from a lion-(Video)
5.1955 oct, 6 Natrual history society, Page 465-468, 3 seperate accounts lion won all 3.(Documentry)
6.1960 Korea pitfights Male lions won majority of all fights.( Hidden news Report)
7.1981 Martin. L Albert witnessed a lion kill a tiger.(Documentry)
8.1954 Lion kills tiger with one blow in boltimore zoo.(Documantry)
9.1935 In the town Bedford masachusetts a Zoo lost a tiger to a lion.(Local news)
10.Gir foreset 3 tigers vs 3 lions, all lions won. (Video) -Youtube-
11.2011 Korea two teen lions killed a adult Bengal tiger in an encloser.(Video)- Youtube-
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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2012 at 22:09
Does this site allow pic's?
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1.
2.


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Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2012 at 22:16
Play this song while you view the historical document's, to get a better feel in how the Lion held on to his title of the...
"King of the beast"...here...
http://cdn03.hulkshare.com/dev3/0/002/807/0002807716.fid/Celtic+Music.mp3?key=158d55c0a7cfc44a79554713173f78c2&dl=1
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{Recorded Historical Document’s of Lion’s Killing Tiger account’s}
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1.Genius books/Animal facts, Lion named Nero killed Tim the tiger in
an Australian zoo – Documentary.

2.1936 Agartala zoo in bengal, a lion kills a tiger. (Local news report)
3.1935 Sikestonians saw a lion kill a tiger in a local town circus
act.(Documentary)
http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/
4. In the movie "the big cage"...you know that movie where ton's of people lied that said the female tiger had a death grip, well everyone who shot the movie said the tiger only had the mane, an before that shot 2 other tiger's died, along with "Bobby' a male tiger not female an here's his documented statement...-(Video)

which clyde beatty is talking about lion’s in general^^^… when they are intermidiate family they will gang up on tiger’s other than that, lion’s will not help another lion, and are exellent free for all fighter’s an all clyde beatty’s fight’s for the movie was one on one.
5.1955 oct, 6 Naturual history society, Page 465-468, 3 separate
accounts lion won all 3.(Documentary)
6.1960 Korea pit fights Male lions won majority of all fights stated by zoo keeper lee young phil.(Hidden news Report)
http://animal-tigers.blogspot.com/2011/02/dominated-by-black-tigers-in-everland.html
lee young phil statement said, there were a few tiger and lion fight’s staged an recorded, and only one that the female tigris fought the lioness was aired… with harsh wording’s of the korean narrirator saying, the lion was no match for there symbol of power, yet it was a 50/50 fight having the tigeress the one bleeding to death. Also saying they were edited an spliced in favor of the tiger, which if there were more than a few male fight’s recorded, why werent they ever shown. It is highly concluded the male lion’s won all, an the video’s were destroyed due to cultrual idlelization’s of the korean’s. Here’s the other alibi to that same fight here…
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/HA28Dg01.html
7.1981 Martin. L Albert witnessed a lion kill a tiger.(Documentary)
8.1954 Lion kills tiger with one blow in Boltimore zoo.(Documentary)
9.1935 In the town Bedford, Masachusetts a zoo lost a tiger to a
lion.(Local news)
10.Gir foreset 3 tigers vs 3 lions, all lions won. (Video) -Youtube-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM   
11.2011 Korea two teen lions killed a adult male Bengal tiger in an
enclosure.(Video)- Youtube-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk
The story was one of the worker’s were on break, an went down the road to a store taking the key’s to the gate an car they usually break up minor scruffle’s with, , when two… 1.5 year old boy cub’s chased around an harrased a adult male bengal tiger, until he colapsed from exaustion,

He tried despertaly to protect himself,…

but the two 1.5 year old brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moan’s in agony, after on looker’s shouted for the lion’s to stop shortly after one got a hold of his throat an took his life…

You see that^^^ every tiger fanatic claim's a tiger can take on 6 lion's, yet not when a lion is is persuing the tiger in intent, not just trying to dominate the tiger, an keep in mind they were only still teen cub's.
12. King Edward the lion kill’s Dan the male tiger. (Book)


13.Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a male tiger(New’s article)


14.Gambier bulton, brittish mengerine saw a lioness kill a tiger.(New’s article)
15.1925 Rudolf kludsky had said several lions had killed his tiger’s. A few years later, Rudolf Kludsky again decided to train a mixed group (22 animals). Mistake. It took three months to get them used to each other. But they were not yet ready to perform. During one of the first shows, the nervous and inexperienced animals engaged in a free for all. One tiger was killed by a lion. Source=Tiger fan named Peter Yuku .com
16. M. Herbert’s mengerine lion kills male royal bengal tiger. (New’s article)

17.1970 pittsburgh Press lion kill’s tiger in india.(Video)
18. Mr F.c owner of bowstock had a lion kill a tiger before his act.(New’s article)
19.1949 in fitchburg a lion kill’s Roger the male tiger in circus act.(New’s article)
20 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” a lion killed a tiger.(German new’s atricle)
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2388/Velar-Male-Lion-vs-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-valauble-rare-account-
21.1985 Alan gold’s circus lion kill’s tigerAlan Gold also had a mixed group. In 1985, a free for all erupted. He lost two lions and one tiger. The lions were killed by other lions. The tiger was killed by a lion. Gold, regarding the way both cats fight, compared to Beatty. He stated lions fight in a calculated way, whereas tigers, in a free for all, are nervous and vulnarable. Source=Tiger fan named Peter Yuku.com
22. Lion kills tiger: in a circus (February 1951. Detroit).

23. Lioness kills tiger: Happened in a zoo (September 1951. Madras Zoological Gardens).
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/sreply/8061/t/Some-new-accounts-just-for-fun-.html
24. Dave hoover stated many tiger’s were killed by his lion’s, now many mean's more than 3 since he had over 40 year's in the bizness I wont go less than 4 but since I'm still working on exactly how many, I'll safely say 4...

25. Beatty cole lion’s kill his tiger’s

26.Clyde beatty’s circus act Ceasar the lion kill’s bobby the male tiger.
27. Bavenna, OH, Lioness kills tigress
28. 2008 Cheongi the lion kills 50 pound bigger siberian tigress name Hobi jeonju zoo.This is Hobi the tiger before the incident sparing with a friendly lion…

An this is Hobi after the incident with Cheongi the not so friendly lion…
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36355.html
29. 2006 lion mate’s kill huge white tigress in leberic and czech zoo. There was only one bite mark on Isabella’s throat an no other wound’s concluding, even though 2 lion’s occupied the same encloser with Isabella the tiger, only one lion attacked isabella.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm
30. Lion kills Puna the male tiger


31. A lion kills a tiger in a palace of an indian prince in front of thosuand’s

It’s on this site called tiger territory, on lairweb .com a site with over a 100 page's dedicated to the tiger here…

32, TIGER; THE STORY OF THE INDIAN TIGER 1977 By Kailash Sankhala. Saw four accasion’s lion’s defeated tigers in the wild.

His book was taken from his oringinal text here…

33. Indian respected Zoologist Jam sahib, has wittnessed 3 fights having all lion defeat tiger’s in his book here…

also in his summarry when he exploited keshari singh he point’s them out again here…

34. 1834 diary of a lterature lion defeat’s tiger.

35. A lion kills a bear and tiger in 1 fight in the old pit fight's in Vienna.

37. Bob greene speak’s of an old video of local’s of india having a pit fight with a lion fighting a tiger, and the lion won, due to his mane…

38. The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy mane, which is an advantage. There is one instance I remember where a full grown lion and tiger engaged in combat, by unforeseen chance of course. It was when the John O’ Brien Show had its winter quarters in Philadelphia and I was connected with it. “A lion and a tiger were in a compartment cage, with a partition between. In some manner this partition was battered down in the night and the two big felloes got together. They had probably been issuing challenges to each other and promising what they would do to one another if the chance came. When morning arrived we found the two in the lion’s cage, the tiger dead and the lion all chew and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.”
~George Conklln, “Adventures With a Circus”

39.Another lion kills male tiger(Fort Wayne Gazette, 1882
40. male lion kills male tiger, The Hammond Times, 1935 ,
41.male lion kills male tiger(Tri-City Herald, 1956 ,
42.male lion kills male tiger , F. Jefferies, 1834
43.male lion kills male tiger, Fort Wayne, 1902
,
NEW YORK. Nov. 2. -Tradition that the tiger is a better animal then the lion in a fight has been disproved as Sr. Nicholas Garden, where one of the biggest striped denizens of the Bengal jungles is suffering from rips and tears inflicted upon him by one of the late king of the South Africa forests. The press agent did not give this story out. Probably he would lose his job if he had, for Bostock is careful to suppress any news tending to show that his animals ever exhibit sanguinary instincts when in the arena. The two big cats in question were brought together several days ago to become familiarized with each other for purposes of a contemplated act in the show ring. The tiger walked nervously up to the lion and began rubbing his nose over the latter's haunches. A low growl was the response. But when the tiger inserted his teeth in the lion's mane, Leo uttered a roar, unmasked his ivories and crouched. The tiger retreated a few feet and then sprang high in the air, intending to come down on the lion. But Leo deftly side-stepped and when the tiger alighted he grabbed it by the head. A twisting of the teeth and a large section of the tiger's face, including one eye, was gone. The trainers and attendants now tried to separate the beasts, which for several minutes rolled over and over each other, snarling, roaring, biting and scratching. Finally they were separated. The tiger, mutilated and bleeding, cowered in a corner, while the lion was defiant in another.

FORT WAYNE MORNING JOURNAL GAZETTE, MONDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1902.
44,...lion kills male tiger Syracuse Herald, 1929
http://newspaperarchive.com/syracuse-herald/1929-09-15/page-84/
45.,lion kills tiger O. Breland, 1963
.A Lioness slew a male Bengal Tiger (Ward, Lock, Bowden, 1896 )
46.Animal reserve:Lion kills 2 tigers one juvi siberian tiger and 1 adult bengal tiger, an had 1 lion whiped 2 tigers in the same cage…

...I seen a african lion maul our adolescent male Siberian tiger to death. The adolescent was a year old. It is extremely sad that these fights are used for entertainment but at the same time I was awed to see one lion defeat two large tigers with all 3 animals in the cage at the same time.
-My teammates and I were transporting a male African Lion into a cage neighboring a Bengal Tigers cage in Kenya. There was a small opening in between the two cages for intermingling of neighboring animals. It was supposed to be closed at the time but someone forgot to close it. The lion sprang from the transportation container through the opening and mauled the tiger of similar size. We tranquilized the lion but it was too late. Two days later, the tiger died due to fatal wounds. It was a very one sided fight where the lion spent much time chasing the tiger.
http://peperonity.com/go/sites/mview/junglebook/14687797%28p5%29
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There you have it, those ^^^ are some account's of lion's killing tiger's an if you do a head count at-least 5 individual's have 3-4 account's in 1 number label, so all together we are already in the hundredth mark, along with this man right here name Clyde beatty...


He has been in the bizness over 40 year's, he had the world's biggest act of mixing lion's and tiger's together in the same giant steel cage, an was one of the only show-men to succsesfully do it. So in term's he was asked in a new's report how many accidental brawl's had occured, an here's what he stated just early on his career, here...

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An that's just early on his career^^^, at almost the end of his career, Clyde was asked again, an he stated he lost 4 lion's that was killed by his tiger's but he lost around 50 tiger's killed by his lion's, so that's roughly around a 45 to be safe, but I'll present that article again when I get my hand's on it for credabilty. Also the account's without article's can be viewed on Circus history .com or by new york time's newspaper article .com, which I'll join the link to the article next time around. So all together so far that's around a 150 clean account's of lion's defeating and killing tiger's, there's only around 40 at best of the oposite.
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Again the list is forever growing, and coward's alway's try to conseal and hide the truth like wiki, jackjacksonj .com, differ .com, indragit .com an ton's more by presenting Bia's lie's faked account's and poor an random data to favor what is barly true, but be honest to your self because the truth alway's rises above the lie's, so rise above it.


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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 18:31
[size=24]{ROMAN TIME'S OF ALL DIFFERENT SOURCE'S LION'S WON}
#1
Rabbi Ken Spiro

Jewish remnet's preserved scripture's translated to English on a history of Rome through the jewish eye's...

“Next, the arena was lowered to feature combat between them as lions tore apart tigers, an went up against bears, croc’s leopards against wolves. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights.”

As a rabbi, he paid particular attention to how Judaism impacted, and was influenced by, the course of these developments. The result is a highly readable and well-documented book about the origins of values and virtues in Western civilization as influenced by the Greeks, Romans, Christians, Muslims and, most significantly, the Jews.
~Ken Spiro; WorldPerfect Simcha Press, Sep 1, 2002 - 400 pages
http://kenspiro.com/articles.php
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#2.
Rome Italy, Lion killing tiger Historical artifact 17th-18th century...

http://www.galerieheim.fr/oeuvre-details3.php?id_oeuvre=116&lng=2
This ^ Exhibition was organized by the Napoleonic authorities in the Capitol in Rome.

^Born in Bohemia, Johan Wenzel Peter made his artistic career in Rome . There, he became the most popular animalist painter of his time. In the villa Borghese he painted frescoes of over 160 animals and participated in the decoration of Palazzo Chigi and Palazzo Altieri. At the beginning of the XIXth century, Peter enjoyed an international fame. After his death, pope Gregory XVI purchased eleven works still in his workshop, among which was the monumental Garden of Eden (Vatican Museums)
In the late 2nd century BC, many of the Boii tribe, after defeat at Roman hands, fled north across the Alps from northern Italy into an area called Boihaemum by the Romans, which included the southern part of present-day Bohemia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia
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#3.
The Memoirs of Cleopatra
Margaret George/American=not british
was born in Nashville, Tennessee. Her father joined the U.S. Foreign Service when she was four, and thus she lived all over the world—Taiwan, Israel, and Germany—before she was thirteen. She was exposed early to historical sites and learned that legends might have a historical basis, attending school in Jaffa, Israel, where Jonah set sail (en route to meeting the whale) and living on the Rhine in Germany across from the Drachenfels, where Siegfried of the Nibelungenlied killed the dragon.

She graduated from Tufts University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A. co-majoring in biological science and English literature. She worked as a science writer for several years at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Since then she has lived in El Salvador and Sweden, and now calls Madison, Wisconsin, home.
“They took on tigers, bulls, and wild boars. Usually the lion won. page 284” {BOOK}

http://books.google.com/books?id=aMDoC0qKRwcC&pg=PA284&dq=the+memoirs+of+cleopatra+usually+the+lion+won+page+284&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MyOLUM_0HsGuigKhg4DAAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
[Yes a novel, but still from a historian]

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#4.
Rome~ Lair of the lion that mangled a tiger 16th century

~Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart
Died in Rome L’Aqulia
Born in the Holy Roman Empire. of the German Nation, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart travelled to Italy very early on. His trace can be found in Rome and Venice between 1652 and 1659. After finishing his apprenticeship, he came to work in Antwerp in order to perfect his knowledge.
After going into the Church, he continued to paint a great number of profane subjects threw life held experinces such as extensive hunting scenes or animals fighting. It was only late in life, after retiring to a convent in the Abruzzo region, that Ruthart dedicated himself to celebrating the life of hermits and saints at prayer.
http://www.dejonckheere-gallery.com/en/Ruthart_Carl_Borromaus_Andreas-5.html?m=1&id=152

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#5.
Martin Seyer's dissertation Vienna University

Occupation: Historian…
A historian is a person who studies and writes about the past and is regarded as an authority on it. Historians are concerned with the continuous, methodical narrative and research of past events as relating to the human race; as well as the study of all history in time. If the individual is concerned with events preceding written history, the individual is a historian of prehistory. Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline. Some historians, though, are recognized by publications or training and experience. "

1.The historian must treat sources with appropriate reservations;
2.The historian must not dismiss counterevidence without scholarly consideration;
3.The historian must be even-handed in treatment of evidence and eschew "cherry-picking";
4.The historian must clearly indicate any speculation;
5.The historian must not mistranslate documents or mislead by omitting parts of documents;
6.The historian must weigh the authenticity of all accounts, not merely those that contradict a favored view; and
7.The historian must take the motives of historical actors into consideration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian
It is generally assumed that around 80-100 AD the Asian lion had become extinct in Greece and in the rest of Europe. In Western-Asia they remained widespread for the time being. In the Holy Land lions disappeared during the Crusades. In Pakistan the Asian lion was exterminated in 1810, in Turkey in 1870. In Iraq the last lion died in 1918 and in Iran (Persia) the last Asian lion was spotted by railway workers in 1942.

"Another subspecies very closely related to the Asian lion - the Barbary lion or Panthera leo leo - became extinct in the wild in 1922 (in Morocco). This animal the Barbary lion had been the dominant animal in the blood sports of the Roman arenas."
~Martin Seyer's dissertation (synopsis), Vienna University.


Martin Seyer is a native Viennese archaeologist and historian who has been lecturing and leading groups in his city and abroad for many years. Deeply knowledgeable about all aspects of Vienna, Martin possesses a broad perspective and is able to make connections between his hometown and the wider European world.
http://www.contexttravel.com/city/vienna/tour-guides
http://www.pothos.org/content/index.php?page=lions
The Department of History is devoted to the research and teaching of history from the Middle Ages to the present in an interdisciplinary context, and welcomes a variety of conceptual, methodological and theoretical approaches to historical scholarship. Among its main areas of research are the History of the Holy Roman Empire
http://www.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/lehre-und-studium/studiengaenge/ma_arts/european_joint/unis/university-of-vienna-universitaet-wien


#6
Tiger territory
A site dedicated of information to the tiger has studyed the Roman history of tiger's which is on lairweb.com has stated tiger's were reluctant to enter combat as much as lion's greeted foe's in the arena, also proven in same concept of everland's video's how male lion's show high agression at time's an drive off tiger's proclaiming there natrual dominant trait's.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w25/atrox_photo/nuevo/roma.jpg
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/


#7
Roman Royal Athena of a lion with a death grip on a tiger

It is quite common for the seller of a artifact to not give details for they are the average person finding an posting what they are trying to sell, but it is quite understandble that some lions maintain there spots as adults...as seen spots maintained as adult hood by Simba the lion...
http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af291/KingOfEurope/45yedsdy.jpg?t=1306200659
an you can see there is a configuration of a mane so its more so a lion which upoun deeming winners threw its story they usually (Romans) put who was the victor of the combat on the top which you can clearly see the lions head in-twining down.


#8
Adolph Hausrath

(13 January 1837 – 2 August 1909), a German theologian
Theology (from Greek ɶÉ√fiV meaning "God" and É…fiÉ¡ÉÕV, -logy, meaning "study of") is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and its influences and of the nature of religious truths, or the learned profession acquired by completing specialized training in religious studies, usually at a university or school of divinity or seminary.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

He was educated at Jena, Göttingen, Berlin and Heidelberg, where he became Privatdozent in 1861, professor extraordinary in 1867 and ordinary professor in 1872. He was a disciple of the TÃ1⁄4bingen school and a strong Protestant.


http://www.homeshop18.com/antinous-romance-ancient-rome/author:adolf-hausrath/isbn:9781459078611/books/miscellaneous/product:24478170/cid:14567/



#9.
Roman sculpture of a lion biting the throat of a tiger...
Roman sculpture of a lion biting the throat of a tiger...

~ In which again uploaders who sell the product who dosent have any affiliational knowledge of its oragin will have wrongfully name the antique, as there are thousands of Ebay uploaders who mistakenly name a lion a tiger or a tiger a lion, as any one who has vass knowledge of tiger an lion anatomys would know that its not a lioness but a tiger, for lionesses do not have tufts of hair on there cheeks,
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlXVq8RWOHcGl8xFV0wU4UxhkHy6J6LMLliWa_dx_3soUz97CpVUgC6FFd

only tigers of both female an male do.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5rj-kqcv6ujx4yu3sca1tTrPA8PeZ9p-qDAA78alL22qVwpGYt-Byb9M

#10.
Edward Beecher


Occupation :Theologian
Theology (from Greek ɶÉ√fiV meaning "God" and É…fiÉ¡ÉÕV, -logy, meaning "study of") is the systematic and rational study of concepts of God and its influences and of the nature of religious truths, or the learned profession acquired by completing specialized training in religious studies, usually at a university or school of divinity or seminary.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Beecher
Lost Atlantis Or the Great Deluge of All lion dfeats tiger
Lost Atlantis Or the Great Deluge of All
And slew before their wond'ring sight, A wild beast conquered in the fight. A tiger who confronting stood And from this lion sought for blood ; But in this sanguinary strife The tiger sacrificed his life. While with flesh torn from slaughtered prey, ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=VwzA4gENNOUC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=lions+slew+fight+tiger&source=bl&ots=9CU5hIxytT&sig=EqyrCd5x1yafy2uDAgC3hUqvWz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Y8IUOuPJqrq2AXKwcTPBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=VwzA4gENNOUC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=lions+slew+fight+tiger&source=bl&ots=9CU5hIxytT&sig=EqyrCd5x1yafy2uDAgC3hUqvWz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Y8IUOuPJqrq2AXKwcTPBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


#11.
Statue near the coloiseum in Nepal of a lion over comeing a tiger...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KfXm6QzlOl4/SX-JaFClajI/AAAAAAAAApQ/m_sqELU4ZGk/s1600-h/lion+statue+cope.jpg - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_KfXm6QzlOl4/SX-JaFClajI/AAAAAAAAApQ/m_sqELU4ZGk/s1600-h/lion+statue+cope.jpg

#12.
The lion mangles in his lair the tiger of the east of Armenia
[Charles Scribner's Sons, or simply Scribner,/American]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Scribner's_Sons
http://books.google.com/books?id=j8hZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA563&dq=lion+fights+combat+tiger++dead+abu&source=bl&ots=Fdgs65WC2_&sig=H7vWueW753wdCAb9rkRSImuqoKs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MnQGUJaIHKGQ2QWN7PW_BQ&ved=0CCQQ6AewAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=j8hZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA563&dq=lion+fights+combat+tiger++dead+abu&source=bl&ots=Fdgs65WC2_&sig=H7vWueW753wdCAb9rkRSImuqoKs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MnQGUJaIHKGQ2QWN7PW_BQ&ved=0CCQQ6AewAA
~The Century, Volume 53 (Google eBook)
Scribner & Company, 1897

#13.
Lion defeating tiger in combat Royal Emperyium of Rome...
Copper engraving by the well listed Italian artist Pietro Aquila (1650-1692 Rome). Pietro Aquila was an Italian painter and printmaker of the Baroque period. He was born in Palermo. He mentored his nephew, the printmaker Francesco Faraone Aquila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Aquila


#14
Thomas Gray
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/PortraitThomasGrayByJohnGilesEccart1747to1748.jpg/220px-PortraitThomasGrayByJohnGilesEccart1747to1748.jpg

Occupation: Historian/Poet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian

Places of Thomas gray’s roman/italian studys…

Genoa (Genova province, Liguria, Italy), inhabited place [7008546]
A seaport on the Mediterranean Sea in north-west[color] Italy, Genoa is the capital of Liguria. It is famous for its Palazzo Ducale (Doge's Palace) and the Cattedrale di San Lorenzo (St. Lawrence Cathedral). Gray visited Genoa, having travelled there from Turin,for a few days in November 1739 while on the Grand Tour with Horace Walpole. He described his very positive impressions of the city, the harbour, and the Mediterranean in a letter to his friend West sent from there on 21 November.

And more than 8 other places I rome here…
http://www.thomasgray.org/resources/glplaces.shtml

The vestal; or, A tale of Pompeii lion defeats tiger
Abstract:
http://books.google.com/books?id=dztAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44&dq=lion+tiger+pompeii+standing+over&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mn8IUcu3OsH3igKN3IGYCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
http://books.google.com/books?id=dztAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45&dq=lion+tiger+pompeii+standing+over&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

#15
Museums and Their Development:Lion kills tiger saving man
http://books.google.com/books?id=4ILtFslJTDQC&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=lion+and+tiger+sculpture+italy&source=bl&ots=_zZtRj-Xbt&sig=oeLY3wwRpGtG6PCWb1OlQ64zL6Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZwgPUKSmNMuJiwLE74HIDw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw - http://books.google.com/books?id=4ILtFslJTDQC&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=lion+and+tiger+sculpture+italy&source=bl&ots=_zZtRj-Xbt&sig=oeLY3wwRpGtG6PCWb1OlQ64zL6Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZwgPUKSmNMuJiwLE74HIDw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw
~Museums and Their Development: The European Tradition, 1700-1900, Volume 3
Psychology Press, 1656 - Museums - 287 pages

#16
Facts and Details
Decapitating ostriches with crescent-headed arrows was a favorite trick at gladiator battles. The crowds cheered and roared with laughter as the ostrich continued to run around after its head was cut off. Bears usually defeated bulls. Packs of hounds easily dispatched deers. [Lions usually defeated tigers.] Not even a rhino could penetrate the hide of an elephant.
http://factsanddetails.com/world.php?itemid=2061&catid=56&subcatid=369

#17
Storia di David Lazzaretti,
Lion kills tiger an 6 other beast


Davide Lazzaretti (1834-1878) was the leader of the Giusdavidic Church in Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davide_Lazzeretti
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=leone+combatte+tigre&sig=w0d_xOxENMM5iCcMi_RkMsgO4uk&ei=y-drUPuaKIWUjALxrID4Cw&id=xAwuAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&ots=l7uQE-uEp2&output=html_text

#18
Latin artifact of a lion that killed a tiger

Phaedrus (Greek: É≥Éø?ɬɜÉÕV), (c. 444 BC – 393 BC), an Athenian aristocrat depicted prominently in Plato's dialogues

#19 Greek statue of a lion killing a tiger…

Another site that dosent identify what they are selling…This is no mastiff, there are plain as day stripes on the belly of the animal the lion is attacking.

#20
Artifact from Rome Italy of a lion defeating a tiger

Drawn by:
Théodore Géricaul:

Born in Rouen, France, Géricault was educated in the tradition of English sporting art by Carle Vernet and classical figure composition by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin, a rigorous classicist who disapproved of his student's impulsive temperament yet recognized his talent. Géricault soon left the classroom, choosing to study at the Louvre instead, where (from 1810 to 1815) he copied from paintings by Peter Paul Rubens, Titian, Diego Velázquez, and Rembrandt. During this period at the Louvre he discovered a vitality he found lacking in the prevailing school of Neoclassicism.Much of his time was spent in Versailles, where he found the stables of the palace open to him, and where he gained his knowledge of the anatomy and action of horses.

A trip to Florence, rome, and Naples (1816–17), prompted in part by the desire to flee from a romantic entanglement with his aunt, ignited a fascination with Michelangelo. Rome itself inspired the preparation of a monumental canvas, the Race of the Barberi Horses, a work of epic composition and abstracted theme that promised to be "entirely without parallel in its time".In the event, Géricault never completed the painting, and returned to France. In 1821, he painted The Derby of Epsom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9odore_G%C3%A9ricault


#21
To the Romans the lion is the King of the beast
To the Romans the lion is the King of the beast.
http://books.google.com/books?id=b-ubyslaBRMC&pg=PT17&lpg=PT17&dq=lion+fight+tiger+atlantis&source=bl&ots=wyRf4_FGem&sig=akzO_ZFN27A7E9MdxjpjQ-g2YUw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zZsTUOnoFdSpqQGFg4HIAg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


#22
Multi-Party Litigation: The Strategic Context
the lion usually always wins

By Wayne V. McIntosh, Cynthia L. Cates
http://books.google.com/books?id=ml_GFGSg8U0C&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=Roman+lion+always+win&source=bl&ots=6_7U5QZG-T&sig=4cRSZCFP1vQFpbk5LlH7zTdS2mg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gsOFUL3vCMnjiAKbtYGoDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


#23
The Book of Beasts: Being a Translation from a Latin Bestiary of the Twelfth The lion is the mighty of beast
By T. H. White
http://books.google.com/books?id=ihy4APkOjioC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=lion+the+mightiest+of+all+beast&source=bl&ots=pG3yypC9vQ&sig=1X_O0dFMKqXR2DTaZc0WekoaRe0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WdKFUO3cBIagiQLC14GIDg&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ

#24
Universal Dictionary of Science, Art, Literature, and Practical Mechanics,
Cicero mentions a single lion that won 200 Bestariis
http://books.google.com/books?id=Un9MAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=lion+kills+200+men+amphitheater&source=bl&ots=LKGgqr1QTP&sig=RaWDscaKAXAwPZHMidlvTc4lyko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y9WFUP3FOaf1iwKQwoDoAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg
~Thomas Curtis T. Tegg, 1829
This is cicero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

#25
~U.S. News & World Report, Volume 130

lions usually finished off tigers. But not even the ferocious charge of the rhinoceros could penetrate the thick hide of the elephant. The afternoon brought more variety
~U.S. News & World Report, Volume 130
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Lions+usually+defeated+tigers.+Not+even+a+rhino+could+penetrate+the+hide+of+an+elephant.&btnG=
-
#26
Annual Editions: Western Civilization, Volume 1, 13/e, Volume 1

Nothing was wasted in the ancient world: not an abandoned baby, not the cloth that kept the ragpicker in business... not even the grains of barley in ... wonldjvin, parks of hnnnrk always beat herds of deer, bears withstood bulls, and lions usually finished off tigers.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Annual+Editions%3A+Western+Civilization%2C+Volume+1%2C+13%2Fe+and+lions+usually+finished+off+tigers.&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search
-
#27
A German Archeologist has disphered a Greek remnent that protained to a venatio event of a free for all fight amoungs beast an men, having a lion kill 2 tigers…
Von bubna und littitz

Von wo der larm zu ihm drang, dorthin ritt er schnell,
Auch wenn sein pferd scheute und saumte.
An dem tosenden ort rang ein lowen im duell,
Der sich im kampf gegen zwei tiger aufbaumte

Einem gegen Zwei man helfen musste,
Sprach er, griff flink zur lanze und hehr,
Eh das ungetrum von ihm wusste
Stieb er in einen der tiger den speer

das epos setzt nach den etablierten regeln ahnlich romantischer Ereignisse fort
herman eilt, nachdem er den ersten tiger erlegt hatte, dem lowen im kampf mit dem zweiten tiger zu hilfe, nur dass der lowen in der zwischenzeit den tiger totet und sich aus dankbarkeit, uber und uber mit blut bedeckt, seinem retter zu fuben legt. Bubna wascht und reinigt dessen wunden besteight darauf

By Bubna and Littitz

Where the larm reached him, there he rode quickly,
Even when his horse shied and saumte.
At one place the roaring lions wrestled in the duel,
In the fight against two term aufbaumte

Two against one had any help,
Speech he attacked, nimbly lance and sublime,
Eh the ungetrum he knew
Stieb it into a term of the spear

the epic is similar to the established rules on romantic events
herman hurries after he had killed the first term, the lions in the battle with the second term to help, except that the lions in the meantime kills the tiger and is covered from gratitude, over and over with blood, his savior sets fuben to. Bubna washes and cleans the wounds besteight out

I'll try an translate it better next time around.

#28
Italian of Baglugs antiquitys of Rome

Same as the other artifact, theres tuft of hair on the cheeks of the cat, via=Tiger not lioness.

#29
Latin printings of a lion with a death grip on a tiger...

Edawrd landseer [more info will be provided>

#30
Latin Ring Brooch of a lion defeating a tiger...


#31
The Gentleman's Magazine
Fight In Italy Verona a lion defeats tiger


Mr. Bolton said that a friend of his saw, in the circus at Verona, a battle between a lion, and a tiger, a horse, and an ass. The tiger at first shewed symptoms of fear, and wished to decline the battle with the lion. He fought however at last with great fury j but, though he foiled the lion for a time by his alertness, soon yielded on a close contact to the other's matchless strength. The horse was dreadfully terrified from the first, and became an easy conquest. The ass, the last attacked, was all the time quite unconcerned, browzing on the ground, and when at length assailed, bit and kicked with great fury, but in the end fell. The lion chiefly used his paw, with which he struck tremendous blows..
http://books.google.com/books?id=y2OYNXvykVcC&pg=PA233&dq=sculpture+statue+lion+tiger+fight&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
~A. Dodd and A. Smith, 1834

#32
In the amphitheater of Caerleon lions an tigers fought an there is a artifact of a lion killing a tiger for a antelope imprinted on a latin greek vase
http://books.google.com/books?id=igsOAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=lion+tiger+caerleon+fight+vase&source=bl&ots=irWQ_O9tpt&sig=O7bfHI5wJgw2c44Svxn9uxIO8RI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kaePULmoDYGIiwK794HYAw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAw

#33
http://books.google.com/books?id=-GACAAAAQAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text&pg=PA31&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&cds=1&sig=ACfU3U0c6eXyVCRBUL9MJrDtE7BYPY9VSg&edge=0&edge=stretch&ci=156,105,680,511
A TIGER roaming for his prey,
Sprang on a traveller in the way;
A lion came to claim the prize
And soon the greedy tiger dies.
The man then knelt, his life to crave;
His life the lion hero gave,
And him bespoke,—" You saw the fight
And must confess my power and might,
Within these woods I reign alone,
All other beasts my sway must own."
"True," said the man, "the strength 1 saw, All kinds of beasts full well might awe,
~Aesop (pronounced /?i¢∞s?p/ EE-sop, Ancient Greek:Éü?É–É÷πÉÕV, Aisÿpos, c. 620–564 BC)

#34
Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine, Volume 27

No body doubted his courage in the ancient world and the Romans thought him a brave and noble animal…in amphitheaters he always fought with style that gave credit to the desert…
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bx1lkqo4q8YC&pg=PA162&dq=lion+tiger+ancient++fights&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w-7dUMb8LYj-igKB9oH4DQ&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA
~W. Blackwood & Sons, 1830

35

"I have seen no fiercer beast than yon lion, even in the amphitheatre of Rome,"
http://books.google.com/books?id=DOwtAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA275&lpg=RA1-PA275&dq=lion+tiger+fight+vivarria++won&source=bl&ots=plKpBUyRYT&sig=LElTQSW0v2IT2ua-uMhH19JAE0A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Od0GUf2DKaK6igLx7YGYDQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBA
The works of Edward Lytton Bulwer, esq. in two volumes, Volume 1
E. L. Carey and A. Hart, 1836
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Jean-L%C3%A9on_G%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_-_The_Christian_Martyrs%27_Last_Prayer_-_Walters_37113.jpg/400px-Jean-L%C3%A9on_G%C3%A9r%C3%B4me_-_The_Christian_Martyrs%27_Last_Prayer_-_Walters_37113.jpg

36
A Tiger, roaming for his prey,
Sprung on a Traveller in the way;
The prostrate game a lion spies,
And on the greedy tyrant flies:
With mingled roar resounds the wood,
Their teeth, their claws, distil with blood;
Till, vanquished by the Lion's strength,
The striped foe extends his length.
The Man besought the shaggy lord,
And on his knees for life implor'd:
His life the generous hero gave.
Together walking to his cave,
The Lion thus bespoke his guest:
'What hardy beast shall dare contest My matchless strength? you saw the fight, And must attest my pow'r and right. Fore'd to forego their native home, My starving slaves at distance roam.
http://books.google.com/books?id=nu8NAAAAQAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text&pg=PA7&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=lion+tiger+fight++matchless+strength&cds=1&sig=ACfU3U0FxkFMP8YDK3aDeoQOmwOC8YI8GA&edge=0&edge=stretch&ci=31,0,935,1636
Drawn by:

Richard westall

At this time it was not uncommon to find Italian engravers working in England. The famous stipple engraver, Francesco Bartolozzi (Venice, 1727 - London, 1815) moved to London in 1764 and not long after established a large and influential school with many English and Italian followers, which continued into the early decades of the nineteenth century.
*     It is not known which London publisher commissioned This engraving entitled, Welch Peasants. What is known is that it is one of a set of three dealing with the rustic life of Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Each was engraved by Giuseppe Bortignoni and designed by Richard Westall. The engravings were hand-coloured at the time of publication.
Richard Westall: Some of the finest British engravings from the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries were designed by Richard Westall. After attending the Royal Academy schools in London (1785), Richard Westall devoted himself to history and landscape subjects. He was an early practitioner of the watercolour medium and many publishers of illustrated books soon sought his designs for publication of illustrated editions of Gray, Moore, Crabbe and other poets of the day.
http://www.artoftheprint.com/artistpages/bortignoni_giuseppe_welchpeasants.htm - http://www.artoftheprint.com/artistpages/bortignoni_giuseppe_welchpeasants.htm

.37.
Proof that all the historical documentations did not originate out the fabrications
~Works of the British poets: Including translations from the Greek and Roman authors
John Sharpe, 1828
http://books.google.com/books?id=UIY-AAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA8&dq=lion+tiger+fight++matchless+strength&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3uAGUc6eF8WUjAKem4BY&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBDgK
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZloCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA14&dq=the+lion+the+tiger+fight+matchless+strength+and+the+traveller&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

38.
[/img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/PompeiiStreet.jpg/250px-PompeiiStreet.jpg[/IMG]
The city of Pompeii is a partially buried Roman town-city near modern Naples in the Italian region of Campania, in the territory of the comune of Pompei. Along with Herculaneum, Pompeii was partially destroyed and buried under 4 to 6 m (13 to 20 ft) of ash and pumice in the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in AD 79.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeii

VI.12.2 Pompeii. March 2009. Oecus/triclinium mosaic floor. Looking south towards first or middle peristyle.
This floor contained a fine mosaic in such a damaged condition that the subject – a lion standing over a prostrate tiger – could not be made out, until a duplicate was found in 1885.
See Mau, A., 1907, translated by Kelsey F. W. Pompeii: Its Life and Art. New York: Macmillan. (p.295)
http://pompeiiinpictures.com/pompeiiinpictures/R6/6%2012%2002%20p5.htm


-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2013 at 19:42
I'm baffled to hear constantly that all the experts, trainers and owners or any one who has experince with lions and tigers have gave there opinion a tiger would win in a fight...so I did a little research, an I found only a hand full, not quite the repertwah of the abundentcy as most claims.

Heres a list of experts who have mainstream experince, of majority of there lives being around tigers and lions.

Experts who favor the lion in a fight with a tiger


---{2009}---

David salmoni

Salmoni wears many hats. He's a zoologist, a renowned animal trainer, a television presenter and a producer with his own South Africa-based production company, Triosphere. And, Salmoni successfully has been able to marry all these titles, emphasizing one common denominator — his love for animals. In 1998, Salmoni began his apprenticeship as an animal trainer at Bowmanville Zoological Park near Toronto, one of the world's largest humane-credited providers of highly trained animals. Salmoni focused on large cat training and has been training large cats as well as other predators since then.Salmoni was offered a life-changing opportunity to be the first to travel with two captive-bred Bengal tigers to Africa and train them how to hunt and survive in the wild. Salmoni combined his trainer and zoology techniques to achieve this conservation goal, which was documented in Discovery Channel's Living with Tigers. Following this experience, Salmoni lived among African lions for three months in an attempt to show that lions and humans can co exsist in the same area; this journey was captured in the documentary Into the Lion's Den.
David salmoni says:
He’d give the edge to a lion in a fight with a tiger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A64glNYb-NM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A64glNYb-NM
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/after-the-attack/dave-salmoni/dave-salmoni.html - http://animal.discovery.com/tv/after-the-attack/dave-salmoni/dave-salmoni.html
-
---{2008}---

Animal planet
http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/animal_planet_logo.gif - http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/animal_planet_logo.gif
Team of zoologist enthusiast and scientist, concluded the lion would win in a fight with a tiger…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PHs-kbypo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_PHs-kbypo
-
---{2006}---
[Isabell Thomas
http://bks2.books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70PaMJ0SmEqPOLR8qSJJOjN8Xk7l4e6VvXGj-kpmyFu1QrtoTv0tXJDCLTnwE07TbosXQZw9n84iQjEnWmGM_lAKmxSJPJ0dTf-8fYpdc7L01MFQxKZ-8svXXhBHsuZCXb0**** - http://bks2.books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70PaMJ0SmEqPOLR8qSJJOjN8Xk7l4e6VvXGj-kpmyFu1QrtoTv0tXJDCLTnwE07TbosXQZw9n84iQjEnWmGM_lAKmxSJPJ0dTf-8fYpdc7L01MFQxKZ-8svXXhBHsuZCXb0****
Each book in this high-interest series compares two exciting animals and looks at how thwy are equipped to survive and defend themselves against preadtors in the wild. Each spread focuses on one particular aspect of the animals, such as teeth, claws, speed, endurance, camouflage, habitat, predator/prey relationships, or hunting techniques.
Heinemann-Raintree Library,
Isabell gives the fight slightly to the lion due to his protective mane….
http://books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&dq=lion+vs+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s - http://books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&dq=lion+vs+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

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---{2001}---

Elizabeth marshall thomas

One of the most widely read American anthropologists, Elizabeth Marshall Thomas has observed dogs, cats, and elephants during her half-century-long career. In the 1980s Thomas studied elephants alongside Katy Payne—the scientist who discovered elephants' communication via infrasound. In 1993 Thomas wrote The Hidden Life of Dogs, a groundbreaking work of animal psychology that spent nearly a year on the New York Times bestseller list. Her book on cats, Tribe of Tiger, was also an international bestseller. She lives in Peterborough, New Hampshire, on her family's former farm, where she observes deer, bobcats, bear, and many other species of wildlife.
~Even the biggest of tigers feared male lions
The Tribe of Tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA
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---{2001}---

Tiger territory

As a consequence, I have spent a great deal of time researching this and talking with people whose careers studying Carnivora extend back some 25 years. Together we have searched for historically documented evidence from which this article has been drawn.
It should be understood that the question is exceedingly difficult to answer as historic records on this type of event are few and far between.
The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and*the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger*had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack.
In this fight, the tiger was killed.
These films back up current*expert opinion, including some from Leeds University, regarding the potential result of conflict between these two animals. It is considered that exactly the same outcome would occur given a modern battle between the lion and the tiger.

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict7.html - http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict7.html
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/ - http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/
-
---{2000}---
Siegfried and Roy

Siegfried Fischbacher born June 13, 1939, Rosenheim, Bavaria and Roy Horn born October 3, 1944, Nordenham were born and raised in Germany. They immigrated to the United States and became naturalized citizens.
Siegfried is a traditional magician, or illusionist, while Roy grew up among exotic animals.
They met in 1959 when they both found work on a German ocean liner. Siegfried was a cabin steward and Roy a waiter. Siegfried began performing magic for some of the passengers, eventually being allowed to have his own show, with Roy as his assistant. Unknown to the crew, Roy had smuggled a cheetah named Chico aboard the vessel (Penn Jillette suggested on his radio show that it was an ocelot). Roy had come to know Chico from his frequent visits to the Bremer Zoo in Germany. After developing their show they were given an engagement in Las Vegas. In 1972 they received an award for the best show of the year. In 1990 they were hired by Steve Wynn, the manager of The Mirage, for an annual guarantee of $57.5 million. In 2001, they signed a lifetime contract with the hotel. The duo has appeared in around 5,750 shows together, mostly at The Mirage. Their long-running illusion and magic act closed October 3, 2003 (Roy's birthday) after Roy was severely injured by Montecore, one of the act's tigers, during a performance.
On:"The personality traits of lions and tigers are
very different."

Roy said:
" A lion is tough," Roy explained. " A tiger is very
versatile, very flexible, also forgiving. When you have a
confrontation wit him, he is a lot quicker to forgive whatever
the situation is than the lion. The lion forgets nothing. And he
will make sure you understand that."

- http://www.amazon.com/Siegfried-Roys.../dp/0964909650
- http://www.amazon.com/Siegfried-Roys...t/dp/096490965
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---{1991}---

Marco peters

One on one a lion usually whips a tiger, twice he seen tigers win, it was the biggest tiger against the smallest lion...the tiger is a coward said peters, he wont take on the strongest lion, you know who he attacks? The little female.
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Lionusuallywhipsatiger.jpg - http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Lionusuallywhipsatiger.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rqWkKqVKByU/T5vJGEqtkiI/AAAAAAAAxjo/aGckwhSTEhY/s1600/April+10,+1988.+Marco+Peters+&+Tiger+Perform+Ringling+Bros+Barnum+Bailey+Circus..jpg - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rqWkKqVKByU/T5vJGEqtkiI/AAAAAAAAxjo/aGckwhSTEhY/s1600/April+10,+1988.+Marco+Peters+&+Tiger+Perform+Ringling+Bros+Barnum+Bailey+Circus..jpg
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---{1985}---

Tippi hedren

http://www.rexano.org/TIPPI/kitchen-tiger.jpg - http://www.rexano.org/TIPPI/kitchen-tiger.jpg
THE CATS OF SHAMBALA 1985 By Tippi Hedren and Theodore Taylor Page 176, tigers are the original scaredy-cat. Although most ferocious under certain conditions, adults are scared silly over numerous odd things. Thunder and Lightning which a lion takes in stride, panics a tiger. Silver reflectors scare tigers, if you want to take over a room full of tigers walk in wearing a silver suit. In the movie ROAR a big siberian tiger name ivan backs down from a tiny lion cub. Tippi Hedren is a former actress that has lions and tigers and other animals on her compound in Acton, Ca.
~ The movie named Roar" had affiliated tigers an lions in an abundentcy, having most of the lions harass an dominate tigers...144 big cats are owned by Tippi an her family.
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---{1978}---

Kailash sankhala

Kailash Sankhala (1925–1994) was a renowned naturalist and conservationist of India. He was the director of Delhi Zoological Park and Chief Wildlife Warden of Rajasthan. Born on 30 January 1925 he is best known for his work in preserving tigers. He was well known around the globe as the Tiger Man, and was involved in the formation of Project Tiger, the world's largest wildlife conservation programme set up in India in 1972.
Kailash Shankhala was first conservationist who raised voice in favour of protecting the tiger as early as 1956. He spearheaded the crusade and succeeded in helping rescue the species from the brink of extinction when hunting tiger was in practice. He carried through this challenging mission with untiring energy and dedication even at the risk of his career and death threats. He conducted an extensive study under the Jawahar Lal Nehru felloship during a time when tiger population was dwindling at an alarming rate due to poaching and hunting. His research later lead him to launch the Project Tiger in 1973. He was founding director of the Project Tiger in 1973.
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics057-1.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics057-1.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics030-1.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics030-1.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics031-2.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics031-2.jpg
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---{1976}---

Roger brown

~Essays in Memory of Imre Lakatos
By R. Robert Sonné Cohen
In a circus act merdous fights are possible the tigers are likely to lose these battles.
http://books.google.com/books?id=j_WRwLmFkLkC&pg=PA707&lpg=PA707&dq=Lions+usually+finished+off+tigers.+killed+fight&source=bl&ots=GVYO7lXnop&sig=CUrHsZwnBLVxFyNY71E2Uj-7oXI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3B2HUKbEAof0iQLyjIHADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=j_WRwLmFkLkC&pg=PA707&lpg=PA707&dq=Lions+usually+finished+off+tigers.+killed+fight&source=bl&ots=GVYO7lXnop&sig=CUrHsZwnBLVxFyNY71E2Uj-7oXI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3B2HUKbEAof0iQLyjIHADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
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---{1976}---

Trainer from Beatty cole
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHNDZfxYOW8JqILFiOptHmHqNMws4mmSqPc4y3LemmA2qkfNupu2KXSWHF - http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSHNDZfxYOW8JqILFiOptHmHqNMws4mmSqPc4y3LemmA2qkfNupu2KXSWHF
St petersburg times nov 29 1976
Lions are more agressive than tigers contrary to what people think...Sometimes you’ll have a lion eating a tiger.
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/tamerdaveHoover.jpg - http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/tamerdaveHoover.jpg
-
Marlin perkins
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFpkb28omu2zLQPLKeccBGLU2lhcjgGdc1m0HG_8OTmde-9rFT_YS3p20 - http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFpkb28omu2zLQPLKeccBGLU2lhcjgGdc1m0HG_8OTmde-9rFT_YS3p20

Initially, a tiger would win for its greater burst of speed and strength. However, tigers have no stamina. If the lion could hold out for ~1 minute, it would defeat the exhausted tiger.
As Mr. Marlin Perkins tells it, however, "a real tiger won't attack a rhinoceros just for the hell of it, any more than he will sleep on his back in lion country."
~
Naval Safety Center, 1972
http://books.google.com/books?id=O3le2AEPRo0C&q=Marlin+perkins+lion+tiger+fight&dq=Marlin+perkins+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=umXuUJHRJ47yigLUjIHICg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg
http://www.google.com/search?q=Marlin+perkins+lion+tiger+fight+&tbm=bks&tbo=1
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---{1966}---

Dave hoover

As a boy, Dave Hoover always wanted to be a vet. After training with a vet at the Cincinnati Zoo, however, he decided he was "too squeamish" for the job. "I couldn’t stand the sight of blood-the animals or my own," he recalled. His stint at the Zoo turned him away from veterinary medicine, but it turned his love of animals in a different direction-a fascination with the "big cats," the lions & tigers who instill terror in the hearts of man & beast alike.

With whip, chair & blank pistol, he puts the cats thru the paces in a "fighting style" performance that has all but disappeared from the modern circus scene. The amiable, outgoing Hoover was a protege of the late Clyde Beatty, considered by some to be the greatest wild animal trainer who ever lived.

Dave said: lions are the better fighter’s.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/2c726fd5c00746832d1bff2d2a483ae1a1c6b6b8_r.jpg - http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/gif/2c726fd5c00746832d1bff2d2a483ae1a1c6b6b8_r.jpg
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Hooverlionsvstigers.jpg - http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Hooverlionsvstigers.jpg
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTh4wLX7SWUEFuvwpumxy-EXTg5B3UeeYRA8x5l27eRZjR3Y7FVus7Mtlzl - http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTh4wLX7SWUEFuvwpumxy-EXTg5B3UeeYRA8x5l27eRZjR3Y7FVus7Mtlzl

-
---{1959}---

Caroll soo-hoo Sanfrisco zoo
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPbz-maegW77A2T3uKJp4LQvJPMVuPYqJk6zEW-mxs1YRx3QlAH5FLVNTI - http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPbz-maegW77A2T3uKJp4LQvJPMVuPYqJk6zEW-mxs1YRx3QlAH5FLVNTI

The Zoo was originally called The Herbert Fleishhacker Zoo, after its founder. The official name of the Zoo – The San Francisco Zoological Gardens – was adopted February 27, 1941, following the suggestion of Herbert Fleishhacker.

Apperntly know’s lion’s are capable of killing male siberian tiger’s even if the lion is old an the tiger is in his prime…
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Atigerissupposedtowinafightwithalion.jpg - http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Atigerissupposedtowinafightwithalion.jpg
http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/45/44721/ca8-5547.jpg - http://images.marketplaceadvisor.channeladvisor.com/hi/45/44721/ca8-5547.jpg
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---{1956}---
Roman Proske
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6Nh77hDzcJELi-949Un3FG0O7PBixhcr12rpPvQKBHAL00MxZ7A - https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6Nh77hDzcJELi-949Un3FG0O7PBixhcr12rpPvQKBHAL00MxZ7A

Born in Vienna 1898 Herman Roman Gustav Proske von walch ran away from home at age 13 to join the circus. He toured Europe and asia, and journyed to africa where he tamed his first lion to perform death-defying feats. Proske dident like whips chairs or other props in his act. He preffered a more humane approach sitting for hours with his big cats until they got used to his presence. Ring master Fred bradna hailed Proske as the greatest wild animal trainer in the world.

Roman Proske states:
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1330.jpg - http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1330.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1332.jpg - http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1332.jpg
http://www.ohio.com/lifestyle/history/crowds-go-wild-for-jungle-gardens-at-summit-beach-park-in-1941-1.82412 - http://www.ohio.com/lifestyle/history/crowds-go-wild-for-jungle-gardens-at-summit-beach-park-in-1941-1.82412
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---{1941}---

Louis roth
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSdEabdvnSkn2mPxFjCLxXXSoEkFcY78B8wBdWmLT5jYMyN2g8Xs5Ll9M - http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSdEabdvnSkn2mPxFjCLxXXSoEkFcY78B8wBdWmLT5jYMyN2g8Xs5Ll9M
Animal Trainer of over 40 year’s in the bisness and Expert Louis Roth, favors the lion the superior over the tiger in a fight. In his book
http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Louis-Roth.jpg - http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Louis-Roth.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SpL5bJ1OSCg/TeTSMBv63CI/AAAAAAAAj9c/ylGuGL8eW44/s1600/F5859%2Blouis%2BRoth%2B1920.jpg - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SpL5bJ1OSCg/TeTSMBv63CI/AAAAAAAAj9c/ylGuGL8eW44/s1600/F5859%2Blouis%2BRoth%2B1920.jpg
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---{1940}---

Melvin B tolson

Caviar and Cabbage [Book] Melvin B. Tolson
Tolson was the professor, poet and writer portrayed by Denzel Washington in The Great Debaters , which is based on a true story from 1935 America. Saying the title King doesent belong to the tiger, it belong’s to the lion for unity.
http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html - http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html
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---{1937}---

Burt nelson



Bert nelson said: A lion would jump a strange tiger without cerimony "nelson explianed" And that might prove fatal to the tiger. For lions you see, with great power and fearless attack easly whips tigers.
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/books-84.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/books-84.jpg
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---{1931}---
Edward Jewitt Wheeler

All these experts Isaac Kaufman Funk, William Seaver Woods, Arthur Stimson Draper, Wilfred John Funkagreed and stated:
Between natural enemies of the cat family proved
conclusively that the fighting prowess of the lion is superior to that of the tiger
~Funk and Wagnalls, 1933
The Literary digest:2nd colome down.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Isac+kaufman+funk+tiger+the+lion+is+superior+&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=Isac+kaufman+funk+tiger+the+lion+is+superior+&tbm=bks&tbo=1

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---{1931}---

Clyde beatty


Animal Tamer an trainer of 40 year’s training Hyena’s, Leopard’s, Jaguar’s, Wolve’s, Tiger’s, Cheetah’s, Bear’s, Puma’s, Lion’s, an more the God father animal expert Clyde*carved out a stellar reputation in circus annals as the undisputed wild animal master.
He became an astute showman and businessman with his*services as both a top performer and circus co-owner*in high demand.*Innumerable circuses featured Beatty, with appropriate star billing, as the*unrivaled crowd pleaser*of their shows. Over the years he was sole proprietor of several touring circuses, all of which were greeted with*popular acclaim and much success.
In 1944*he formed his own Clyde Beatty Circus, a huge endeavor which traveled by rails, and featured the finest performers*from the world of the circus.*His self-titled circus*continued as a major tented show. Through the years that*followed and even after his death, the Clyde Beatty title has always been*associated with top flight entertainment, a tradition carried on today with the current incarnation of the much acclaimed CLYDE BEATTY CIRCUS.
Mr. Clyde Beatty said: I think lions will win 9/10 against tigers in a fight.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books-83.jpg - http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books-83.jpg
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/560/The-God-Father-Animal-Trainer-Clyde-Beatty - http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/560/The-God-Father-Animal-Trainer-Clyde-Beatty
http://www.beattycircus.com/clyde_beatty.html - http://www.beattycircus.com/clyde_beatty.html
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---{1929}---

William H. Blackburne

“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.”
Source: William H. Blackburne, head keeper of the National Zoological Park, 1929
-
---{1924}---

Courtney cooper

Animal Expert an Tamer Courtney cooper,
[IMG]http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT83lz9a6AH6YX0r0z1xTPVJ24mon_S66QpiXx98aghE6RK3GpIXilXdg[IMG]
Courtney ryley cooper born in Kansas city missori on october 31 1886 at the age of 16 he left home to join the circus. Who worked multiple jobs form animal trainer, all the way up to circus manager.
In his book he state’s
LIONS"N"TIGERS"N"EVERYTHING 1924 By Courtney Riley Cooper.
Page 32, I like the tiger cat more than I like the lion cat.
Page 68, lions are "King Of Beasts"
Page 70, lion kills a tiger in a very brutal fight.
Page 78, Cooper says lion is "King Of Beasts" and a good father.
Pages 84-85, FEMALE tiger kills heavier MALE tiger defending her cubs.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-867ud6Wa9NQ/TpV7MZsSYLI/AAAAAAAAnHY/NHhpK6OBdVw/s1600/The%2Bbook%2Bdetails%2Bthe%2Blife%2Bof%2Ba%2Btypical%2Bzookeeper%2Band%2Bhis%2Banimals.jpg - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-867ud6Wa9NQ/TpV7MZsSYLI/AAAAAAAAnHY/NHhpK6OBdVw/s1600/The%2Bbook%2Bdetails%2Bthe%2Blife%2Bof%2Ba%2Btypical%2Bzookeeper%2Band%2Bhis%2Banimals.jpg
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0177960/ - http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0177960/

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---{1923}---

Jam Sahib
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQY2144GNpjZ5ZVmXAl3yE_avkTPo7JvQMkyAkDL7oOSOX2PF_AtVuUNidw - http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQY2144GNpjZ5ZVmXAl3yE_avkTPo7JvQMkyAkDL7oOSOX2PF_AtVuUNidw
Jam sahib exploit’s bias cat enthusiasist “Karish singe” an witnesses 4 ocasian’s lion’s beat tiger’s an give’s his opinon on lion’s.
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/pagetwoju9.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/pagetwoju9.jpg
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---{1921}---

George conklin

Circus performer an big cat owner Geroge conklin say’s in his book the male lion has the advantages over other cat’s: The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy which is an advantage.
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_ways_of_the_circus.html?id=sbzZMD7BRNEC - http://books.google.com/books/about/The_ways_of_the_circus.html?id=sbzZMD7BRNEC
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---{1903}---

The mengerine…Lions will not stay in the same cage with tigers. We tried this once, putting a lioness in with a Bengal tiger. There was a fierce fight and the lioness nearly killed the Bengal."Chapter V11
http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm - http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm
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---{1896}---

The quiver

Tigers avoids lions
http://books.google.com/books?id=w-9MAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA253&lpg=PA253&dq=lion+tiger+avoided+combat&source=bl&ots=F-gBFHhbez&sig=sjpgzXZ35URQFAgkUHLvT4_TNo0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LoAfUJmvJuLJiwKh0oHoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=w-9MAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA253&lpg=PA253&dq=lion+tiger+avoided+combat&source=bl&ots=F-gBFHhbez&sig=sjpgzXZ35URQFAgkUHLvT4_TNo0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LoAfUJmvJuLJiwKh0oHoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA

-
---{1892}---

Sir Samuel w. baker
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRS-anZnzwhD8bPjmVZ4w1Qhw8yltYCGCywIbt2fCv2D4w4J9OdZA8dcQ - http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRS-anZnzwhD8bPjmVZ4w1Qhw8yltYCGCywIbt2fCv2D4w4J9OdZA8dcQ
BAKER, Sir SAMUEL WHITE (1821-1893), traveller and sportsman, born in London on 8 June 1821, was the second son of Samuel Baker of Lypiatt Park, Gloucestershire, by Mary, daughter of Thomas Dobson of Enfield. His father was a West India merchant, possessing considerable property in Jamaica and Mauritius,
Cin Egypt, and between 1879 and 1892 visited India seven times, and almost to the end of life bis vigorous health enabled him to maintain his reputation as the greatest living hunter of big game. In whatever quarter of the globe he chanced to be, whether in pursuit of elephants in Africa and Ceylon, tiger-hunting in the central provinces in India, deer-stalking in Japan, bear-shooting in the Eocky Mountains, this iron-nerved sportsman ever proved his ability to excel all others. He himself regarded the pursuit of dangerous game as the best training for either an explorer or a soldier {True Tales for my Grandsons, p. 176), and to his own experiences in the jungle and on the plain the development of his remarkable tenacity and resource as an explorer was doubtless in great part due.

:Has carefully compared the strength and other qualitie’s of the lion an tiger an he decide’s in favor of the lion.
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles35/animals-2.shtml - http://www.oldandsold.com/articles35/animals-2.shtml
http://books.google.com/books?id=5XFRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA762&lpg=PA762&dq=sir+samuel+baker+lions+and+tigers+book&source=bl&ots=vytNsXChw7&sig=pbFGbyGmNsYlG4GzpAyy_us2C6o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5JHBT_XeN4aUiQLH4oHjBw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw - http://books.google.com/books?id=5XFRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA762&lpg=PA762&dq=sir+samuel+baker+lions+and+tigers+book&source=bl&ots=vytNsXChw7&sig=pbFGbyGmNsYlG4GzpAyy_us2C6o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5JHBT_XeN4aUiQLH4oHjBw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAw
http://www.hotfreebooks.com/book/Wild-Beasts-and-their-Ways-Sir-Samuel-W-Baker--6.html - http://www.hotfreebooks.com/book/Wild-Beasts-and-their-Ways-Sir-Samuel-W-Baker--6.html
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Baker,_Samuel_White_%28DNB01 - http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Baker,_Samuel_White_(DNB01 )
-
---{1872}---

The childrens hour

Edited by T. S. Arthur
2 lions on one tiger is too much
http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA166&lpg=RA1-PA166&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&source=bl&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&sig=BQZW9HO646T41rqopL0XjuYtleE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JJAxUK-LL8rTigLS-YGYBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw - http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA166&lpg=RA1-PA166&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&source=bl&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&sig=BQZW9HO646T41rqopL0XjuYtleE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JJAxUK-LL8rTigLS-YGYBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw
http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA167&lpg=RA1-PA166&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA167&lpg=RA1-PA166&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
-
---{1855}---

Lion defeats tiger to rescue man

"The ferocity of the tiger's disposition has been exaggerated; but although capable of being made quite gentle, they are unreliable in their habits, and apt at any instant to attempt the gratification of a blood-thirsty disposition. Keepers of menageries, however much confidence they may feel in the friendship of the "king of beasts," are always nervous about the tiger, and cautious in their movements. We think it was Van Amberg who was unexpectedly set upon by a tiger, when the lion came to his rescue, and actually threw the tiger down, and held him fast until the man escaped."

Source: http://www.harpers.org/archive/1855/05/0037640 - http://www.harpers.org/archive/1855/05/0037640
-

---{1842}---

Animal new’s article having a trainer of all animal’s…saying lion’s were the most dominate animal and feared more above tiger’s.
http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=12636137 - http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=12636137

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---{1838}---

Tiger’s avoid lion’s in combat
Army and Navy chronicle, Volume 6
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_kRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA411&lpg=RA1-PA411&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=6SgbuGhV-3&sig=NVNf1GQYYoCLvPysS7qQmB2U3Qc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tXkfUN3QM4vnigLR9oGQDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBjhG - http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_kRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA411&lpg=RA1-PA411&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=6SgbuGhV-3&sig=NVNf1GQYYoCLvPysS7qQmB2U3Qc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tXkfUN3QM4vnigLR9oGQDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBjhG
-
---{1830}---

W. Blackwood & Sons

lion dominate’s an chases tiger around the arena in Rome
Blackwood's Edinburgh magazine, Volume 27
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bx1lkqo4q8YC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=oQP1EtnaeB&sig=OJogE0OvxMuNQxhCBmuOCJBVYmM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VXIfUKbHKOzqiQKPwYHICg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=Bx1lkqo4q8YC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=oQP1EtnaeB&sig=OJogE0OvxMuNQxhCBmuOCJBVYmM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VXIfUKbHKOzqiQKPwYHICg&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA
-
---{1825}---

A natural history of the most remarkable quadrupeds.

The lion not the tiger is the unbdisputed King of the forest
http://books.google.com/books?id=8icYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=lions+undisputed+fighter+tiger&source=bl&ots=Ay1UmC74cw&sig=TrqQL7rHRl7AXgskSoPbAmW9lHA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_5QxUOrNK8r2iwK2-ICwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=8icYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=lions+undisputed+fighter+tiger&source=bl&ots=Ay1UmC74cw&sig=TrqQL7rHRl7AXgskSoPbAmW9lHA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_5QxUOrNK8r2iwK2-ICwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
Printed by C. and C. Whittingham, 1825
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---{1823}---

The Asiatic journal and monthly miscellany

The lion is so powerful an animal as the tiger, but he fights much better. A tiger will make his attack, and then retire; but a lion never retreats ; he fights until he is killed.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWN3-payo_8C&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=lions+slayed+fight+tiger&source=bl&ots=Q9RLRCwtLl&sig=T9BeweLp0Y8d147ni5sjyu3SXlU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yYQIUOGCCKuI2gX0mpjSBw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=ZWN3-payo_8C&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=lions+slayed+fight+tiger&source=bl&ots=Q9RLRCwtLl&sig=T9BeweLp0Y8d147ni5sjyu3SXlU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yYQIUOGCCKuI2gX0mpjSBw&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA
http://books.google.com/books?id=xXEAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=poetry+lion+fight+tiger+kill+won&source=bl&ots=5WQPUb0gQ7&sig=gWEX_w7GoC6SY7Qs0jKBebxgMqs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qQNgULTJOaP1igLuwIHQBA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=xXEAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=poetry+lion+fight+tiger+kill+won&source=bl&ots=5WQPUb0gQ7&sig=gWEX_w7GoC6SY7Qs0jKBebxgMqs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qQNgULTJOaP1igLuwIHQBA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAg
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---{1821}----

Edward Griffith

The tiger is inferior an fears the lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=XMAyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=lion+tiger+arranged+combat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wJSPULe6O-GgigKMq4CABA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg - http://books.google.com/books?id=XMAyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=lion+tiger+arranged+combat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wJSPULe6O-GgigKMq4CABA&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBg

---{1806}---

Oliver Goldsmith

Ranked the lion over the tiger.
http://www.scharlau.co.uk/scharlau.co.uk/prints/images/lions4701.jpg - http://www.scharlau.co.uk/scharlau.co.uk/prints/images/lions4701.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=0axEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA395&lpg=PA395&dq=oliver+goldsmith+lions&source=bl&ots=g1TAll-5xC&sig=DGi-ZspT444D1ZdbX5jYWUItBO4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oEu7T_L7OaiviALuyoXVDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=0axEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA395&lpg=PA395&dq=oliver+goldsmith+lions'&source=bl&ots=g1TAll-5xC&sig=DGi-ZspT444D1ZdbX5jYWUItBO4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oEu7T_L7OaiviALuyoXVDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA
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---{1758}---

Dr.Sc Giuliano Russini

~view on Lions and Tigers.

...African lion presents phenomena of aggressiveness which, contrary to what is thought render it more dangerous in the wild than the tiger and more difficult to manage in captivity, as observed by the zoological biologists.... This caused by overheating corporeal overheating phenomena, is in fact a handicap in case of prolonged fights, drawback not found in the lion who, as they say, “will struggle up to the death”.Same can be said for the fighting techniques, which all stand in favour of the Panthera leo ,accustomed, as it is, to face in the savannah a great variety of preys and competitors, in comparison with the solitary tiger....
http://www.photomazza.com/?Panthera-tigris - http://www.photomazza.com/?Panthera-tigris


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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 16:28
Prime, could not find anything wrong.  Can you still not edit?

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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 16:39
Originally posted by red clay

Prime, could not find anything wrong.  Can you still not edit?


I guess its because of this computer, I did have this problem before being its so out dated, so I guess I'll have to be careful how I post...So I guess thats the Roman empires records so far, theres also the Indian empires an British empires too...do you know of any empires that had these 2 majestic beast's combat the other? I was putting together an archive for either each empire or each continent.

But Thanks for the chack up ^_^

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 17:01
Chinese Dynastys an Empires
~(Indidegous to the Asian tiger, Afghanistan sent lions to Chinese emperors as gifts in order to get the right to trade with Silk Road merchants. *(205 B.C. to 220 A.D in China) and during the Tang Dynasty (716-907 A.D.)
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html - http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html

^ So in terms, lions were in china for about 2,000 years. An since they were only imported an not indigedous, most likely there conflicts were accidental in captivity or pitted for chinese royal emperors an such.

After importing lions, the chinese have incorperated lions in there legends an ranked his courage unserpassed. A Lion fighting a Nian who the Tiger couldent.
http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html - http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html

A modern account Showing that the historical artifacts below, still holds up to its merits showing that it is not only artistical but factual.

A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east Chinas Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes." *
~Peoples Daily Online

My mother taught me the elephant will defeat the lion, the lion defeat the tiger . . . the cat defeat the mouse, the rat. But the rat can kill the elephant
Atlanta Journal-Constitution - Jun 28, 1997
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AT&p_theme=at&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EADA32AE924DB1B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
6th colome down
http://www.google.com/search?q=china+lion+kills+tiger+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tongzhi-period-1862-1874-chinese-vase-287767094 - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tongzhi-period-1862-1874-chinese-vase-287767094
*
*








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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 17:04
Japanese Dynastys and Empires
~(Importations as far back as the 2nd century)

This episode is a pantomime about a lion and a tiger. They fight each other and the lion catches the tiger in the end. This episode is originated from topographical characteristics of Mt. Baek at Suyeong. When a big lion appears in dancing, a tiger (called "Dambo") comes. They dance and talk back and forth. In the end, the lion catches the tiger.
http://www.suyeongminsok.or.kr/eng/menu01_02.php - http://www.suyeongminsok.or.kr/eng/menu01_02.php

Japanese culture, reinacting events of the past ^, it would seem that the lion an tiger would fight, an in the end usually the lion would win.
Lions and tigers were imported so just like the chinese, they were most likely pited or accidentally got at each other in captivity, showing past historical artifacts of who usually won recorded by the Japanese...





1793
Of a lion fighting a tiger, incised maker's mark Gyouko Saku [ù?å?çÏ, made by Gyouko].

19 C) Han Dynasty
Patinated & carved Japanese Meiji fighting lion and tiger bronze.
Bronze made "à cire perdue" (a method of casting bronze, in which a mould is formed around a wax pattern, which is subsequently melted and drained away).The eyes are made of glass. The patina work on the tiger is particular remarkable. The signature is under the lion: "Watanabe"






http://www.panasia.ch/images/japon/2636.jpg - http://www.panasia.ch/images/japon/2636.jpg
Bronze
1860, signature
http://japanantiques.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/-652503307253362890.jpg - http://japanantiques.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/-652503307253362890.jpg
http://images.artfinding.com/svv/thumbs_lot/250/groupe_en_bronze_a_patine_brune_lion_attaquant_un_tigre-335-1.jpg - http://images.artfinding.com/svv/thumbs_lot/250/groupe_en_bronze_a_patine_brune_lion_attaquant_un_tigre-335-1.jpg


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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 18:02
Very good stuff. Not my area of interest but will research it as time permits. Welcome to the forum Prime.

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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'



Posted By: TheAlaniDragonRising
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 18:39
This might be a bit of a side issue, but I remember a while ago hearing about someone in America at sometime in the past having bears fighting lions and tigers. The result of those encounters was that the bear never ever lost. This was down to the powerful jaws of the bears which would easily crush the skull of the other unfortunate creatures.

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What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 18:43
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis



Very good stuff. Not my area of interest but will research it as time permits. Welcome to the forum Prime.


Thanks, yeah I got another one on India, hope it comes out okay...

Empire’s of Indias lion fighting tigers


Agartala zoo in bengal, a lion kills a male tiger.[/
When a connecting door between two cages was left open at Agartala, Bengal, by a forgetful zoo attendant, a very large tiger charged its neighbor, a lion. The fight was ferocious, but did not last long, the lion literally tearing the tiger to pieces.”
(Local news report)
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/courant/access/851717652.html?dids=851717652:851717652&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Sep+11%2C+1936&author=&pub=Hartford+Courant&desc=Lion+Kills+Attacking+Tiger&pqatl=google

Amphitheatres and Circuses: Lion subdues attacking tiger


Two tigers had got loose from their cages in the absence of their keepers. Martin came into the caravan at this mo-' ment, to find one of the tigers had torn the lama to pieces, and was feeding on it. The other tiger had attacked the lion, the lion holding the tiger in "chancery." The tiger that was feeding upon the lama then made at Joe—Joe had a cane in his hand, and kept the tiger at bay till he got to Tippo, who, quick as thought, with his 1 trunk placed Joe on his back in safety. Tippo threw the tiger with great violence to the roof of the building; the alarm was given and the animals secured. It was a most miraculous escape for Joe.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QGR2YmfF9HwC&pg=PA51&dq=tippo+a+lion+and+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kYYUUd3mG5DSigLz5YHQBQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg

Lions are too much for a single tiger




Lions have ruled India for 2,000 years
The lion takes over…only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years.
~Forster and Further: The Tradition of Anglo-Indian Fiction
By Sujit Mukherjee
http://books.google.com/books?id=xYi3HztW19YC&pg=PA202&dq=tiger+kailash+sankhala+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ


{1999}
Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress
One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


To the Indians the lions are the King of the beast not tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=o5eTQnIUF88C&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=lion+tiger+greece+fight&source=bl&ots=ZDLb53pWWs&sig=wsLpq5pgJ_I0MRW0Uv7cMBqBA1k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnEXUN_UKsSKrAHT-IDoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA<br>




Lion kills tiger in pit fight
A lion kills a tiger in a pit fight on a palace compound of an indian maharajah prince in front of thousand’s this is not the gir fight.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionvstigerfights.jpg


3 Asiatic lions vs 3 bengal tigers,

All lions won each occaision 1 tiger died, lion # 2 mauled the big male tiger,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM   




Cultures and customs of india

By Carol Henderson Garcia, Carol E. Henderso
The lion is the King of the beast of Inidan culture…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA74&dq=India+asiatic+lion+king+of+the+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EYuPUNLiL4PUiwKUsYHoDw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg


Asiatic lion defeats bengal tiger
Asiatic lion defeats bengal tiger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MRLYzRvYkE


The lion in ancient india strips the title of the tiger in art an mythology
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g43/Lion-Tiger/LioninAncientIndia.jpg

Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger
Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionessfightswithatiger.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/lionessdefeatstiger.jpg
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25

TIGER: THE STORY OF THE INDIAN TIGER 1977
By well known Indian Zologist Kailash Sankhala. Saw 3 accasion’s lion’s defeated tigers in the wild.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-n1cZ9FyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Jam sahib in india has wittnessed 4 fights Jam sahib in india has wittnessed 4 fights

having all lion defeat tiger’s published in 1927 in his book here…
http://shared.knights.co.uk/albums/KSAMar12/images/lot0706.jpg
Also in his summary, when he exploited keseri singh he point’s them out again here…


1834 diary of a literature lion defeat’s tiger.
1834 diary of a literature lion defeat’s tiger.


Mj an bob greenes interview
Seen a pitfight video in india of a lion killing a tiger in india called King of the beast.


1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung”
a lion killed a tiger in the wild witnessed by local native’s of India an German Zoologist’s.
~(German new’s atricle)
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2388/Velar-Male-Lion-vs-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-valauble-rare-account-





The Anvár-i Suhailí
lion kills several tigers..When the tiger was seized by the lions claw, Death
http://books.google.com/books?id=QBi2OLju39gC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=lion+tiger+fight+suited+region&source=bl&ots=gzgy8hlxIc&sig=V2CHvhgzn4klwtkTgh1S2TNkzkg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vzNIUJL_CpDtiQLn_YDIBg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ
.

Friedrich Specht (6 May 1839 Lauffen am Neckar - 12 June 1909 Stuttgart), was a German painter and natural history illustrator. He held his first exhibition at the Stuttgart Art Academy. He provided illustrations of animals and landscapes for a large number of zoology and veterinary science publications, notably for the first edition of Brehms Tierleben (1864–69) conceived by Alfred Edmund Brehm, Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary (1890—1907), Karl Christoph Vogt's Die Säugetiere in Wort und Bild (1883–89) and Richard Lydekker's Royal Natural History (1894–96). His brothers were the wood engraver Carl Gottlob Specht and the wildlife painter August Specht (1849–1923).[1]

The Ramayana and Mahabharata
lion kills tiger in Indian woods…
http://books.google.com/books?id=mw2WXDmhHcsC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=lion+slays+tiger+'&source=bl&ots=iHa2S4CZhn&sig=cQqJxBtIkN5P8Z7rwB5oIAHlhko&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i7x3UPfIM4znigK2i4HwDw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA

Caviar and Cabbage [Book] Melvin B. Tolson .
Tolson was the professor, poet and writer portrayed by Denzel Washington in
The Great Debaters , which is based on a true story from 1935 America. Saying the title King doesent belong to the tiger, it belong’s to the lion for unity.
http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html


http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA166&lpg=RA1-PA166&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&source=bl&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&sig=BQZW9HO646T41rqopL0XjuYtleE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JJAxUK-LL8rTigLS-YGYBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw
http://books.google.com/books?id=9-kaAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA167&lpg=RA1-PA166&ots=L2zJSGeZ1K&dq=lions+better+fighters++tigers&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

The lion not the tiger is the unbdisputed King of the forest
The lion not the tiger is the unbdisputed King of the forest
http://books.google.com/books?id=8icYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=lions+undisputed+fighter+tiger&source=bl&ots=Ay1UmC74cw&sig=TrqQL7rHRl7AXgskSoPbAmW9lHA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_5QxUOrNK8r2iwK2-ICwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Lion stale mates tiger, for mugal ruler
The Asiatic journal and monthly miscellany, Volume 15
http://books.google.com/books?id=Fa1AAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA34&dq=asiatic+lion+king+of+the+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZYmPUO3OLM6yigKyxoF4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK
victories.

lion defeating a tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text#c_top

Both are high symbols of India yet the lion is the king of beast
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow5w7Buo9oQC&pg=PA153&dq=India+lion+king+of+beast+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zTbqUOL9AcT8iwKK1oDwDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Bhim Singh:
a romance of Mughal times
a lion is a more formidable foe than a tiger, who, after all, is a cowardly beast. Macmillan, 1926 - 194 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=DNtiOF9nBwkC&q=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&dq=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wm-QULW-OsjdigKQnIHwBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgo


Kailash sankhala
Mentions a crazed prince that had a fight with a lion an tiger an the lion killed the tiger





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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 19:22
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

This might be a bit of a side issue, but I remember a while ago hearing about someone in America at sometime in the past having bears fighting lions and tigers. The result of those encounters was that the bear never ever lost. This was down to the powerful jaws of the bears which would easily crush the skull of the other unfortunate creatures.


I think I know the source that mentioned the gold mine-ing storys of california, where the bear never lost...it was a man named Grizzly Adams who alibied that story. His credability is one of the poorest of all accounts, hes the same person who alibied that in mexico, a grizzley bear tore apart a african lion an killed him...well since we live in the era of internet via= [Fact checking], news paper archives are availiable to re-read its credability. It turns out that the bear dident even kill the lion stated by multiple news-paper archives who most were at the event, unlike Grizzly adams whos just mentioning hear say...heres the article ...




So you see^^^ no death, but some articles have stated the score card went to the bear, for throwing the lion, but the bear dident kill the lion, in fact the bull dident even kill the lion, yet the bull killed the bear. So grizzly admams story about the bear won every time is likely a hear say as well, because he goes on in saying, that a bear can break a bulls neck with a single chop, when there isint any creditable occaision that has ever happened in fact the records of creditable pit fights incorperating a adult bear an adult spanish fighting bull, the bull has won nearly every time (which I do have the records to prove it).

An as for your gesture of a bears bite, a tigers skull is bigger than a grizzly's, an a lions skull is even larger than a tigers, so I dont think a bear can bite harder than either, not to mention a bears bones are more robust, but a lions is just as dense, so breaking each others bones will come in the same fashion of who exerts more power efficently.

In comparisons of who actually won more, there is only 6 accounts of a bear killing a lion, compared to almost 20 accounts of a lion killing a grizzly, black bear, an polar bear...here

Lion killing Bears accounts
-
1.1902 lion named roosevlet killed peary the polar bear.

2. lion named brutus kills polar bear.

3. lion kills polar bear 1955 By Alfred Court.[Book]Pages 131-132,
http://www.worthpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Life-With-Big-Cats.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y2wHaYYEsJw/Saowc4ij0-I/AAAAAAAACzI/uw1xcq-YVxQ/s400/court+act.bmp
4. lion kills polar bear Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, [Book]
page 204-205.

5.1893 Pezon in limoges, Leo the lion maul’s polar bear

6.Boltimore the lion kills russian grizzley

7. Lion stale mate’s enormous grizzley bear
THE OAKLAND TRIBUNE APRIL 1, 1895 "A DRAW" PARNELL FIGHTS A BIG BEAR.
THE LOS ANGELES TIMES APRIL 2, 1895 "BRUIN THROWS LEO
At 4 P.M. yesterday, in the bull ring at New Laredo, Mexico, the African lion Parnell (500 pounds) fought a terrible battle with an enormous grizzly bear of the American type (750 pounds). The attendance was large. The animals fought desperately for two rounds until completely exhausted, but contrary to expectation, neither was killed. It was a bloody combat.
The crowd went wild when twice the American grizzly threw his African opponent and erstwhile king of beasts, so hard upon the ground that once, had time been called according to the usual rules, the lion would have been counted out
Throughout the battle the lion showed more agility and treachery.
Parnell is owned by Colonel F. Daniel Boone, the lion tamer, and is the beast that killed its keeper at the Midwinter Fair.
The bear is somewhat larger and heavier than the lion, and was secured at New Orleans where he killed two keepers.
It is the first time on record that such a combat has taken place. Mr Zarcombe, editor of the Laredo Times, was fortunate enough to secure four excellent instantaneous photographs of the battle. The fight took place in a large circular steel cage twenty feet in diameter and fifteen feet in height.
No more thrilling spectacle was ever witnessed than the spring made by the lion as he bounded into the cage, with a magnificent leap fully fifteen feet, and grappled with his antagonist.
http://i870.photobucket.com/albums/ab270/Grrraaahhh/Bears/SFEX2.jpg
http://www.easilysharing.com/images/68039572182607073085.jpg
8. Lion kills bruin the grizzly bear...



9.Lion kills bear
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/books_003-25.png
10.
lion kills tiger and bear Source (full fight): http://paperspast.natlib....=d&d=TH18991223.2.87
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/imageserver/imageserver.pl?oid=TH18991223.2.87&area=9&width=365&color=32&ext=gif&key
11. Lioness kills atlas bear in the roman arena
http://books.google.com/books?id=nhhdJ-fkywYC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=lion+fights+bear+kills+dead&source=bl&ots=1Nw9g0BYw1&sig=awold4MzsrWOIwxuDRUqG6nU04M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xHkGUMzXDuil2AXP1_DDBQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ
12.lion strangle’s an kills 1 out of 7 bears
http://books.google.com/books?id=V0JSVvpZvYYC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=menageries+lion+fights+fighting+kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=ZczqFNg_1H&sig=TQznMOxQv5-vXhywYepZXvtWtbw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-I8GUNnoI8Hi2QWCvKnOBQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAjgK
13. lion kills 2 leopards an fights bear
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Malelionkills2leopards1.jpg
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/boldchamp/Malelionkills2leopards2.jpg
http://newspaperarchive.com/logansport-journal/1893-09-27/
14. lion killing bear Tapestry 16th century
http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/D53533/a_flemish_game_park_tapestry_mid-16th_century_originally_part_of_a_lar_d5353383h.jpg
15.
Lion kills bear in the areana
Liokos is not allowed to retire into his cage this time, further infuriating him. The final match is now on between him and the heavily favored bear named Shardik. Diana bets against Shardik hoping that he will be killed. She despises Senator Palladius for making a gift of him to her. The bastard has hated her ever since she ignored his amorous advances during the Saturnalia festivities a couple of months ago. She hopes that the senator loses heavily on this bout. She has learned from her spies that he has bet heavily on Shardik. She has sent her agents around the city to find out what animal the senator is terrified of in order to give him that as gift in return.

Shardik enters the arena and the two animals cautiously eye each other at a distance. Liokos begins his attack by crawling very close to the ground, appearing to be as small as possible to his opponent. Liokos charges him without any further hesitation. Shardik gets a paw up in time to prevent Liokos from getting him by the neck. This has just cost him his paw and part of his foreleg now ripped to shreds. He falls backward with the lion falling on top of him and going to town with his lower claws on the hapless bear's belly. The bear tries desperately to kick him off with his three remaining limbs but by now Liokos has him by the throat and quickly dispatches him with a violent shake of his great maned head. The crowd explodes into applause.

The winner of the Venationes is Liokos the lion, owned by Arminius Reccanellus. The only ones happier than him are the bookies who took in millions of cesterces on the favorite Shardik...and of course Diana who has finally gotten rid of the hated Shardik


Humbly submitted from the stands
http://www.crystalwebvision.com/aedil/april5.htm
16. lion kills big bear
Poor Sampo, the recently acquired sloth bear at Mundy's Zoo, is no more, because Bully, a pugnacious young lion literally "cut him dead"
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1761246562.html?FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Nov+28%2C+1906&author=&pub=The+Sun+(1837-1985)&desc=LION+KILLS+BIG+BEAR&pqatl=google
17. Daytona Beach Morning Journal - Apr 6, 1950
Calif A mother bear, defending her two cubs, fought a losing battle with a powerful African lion early yesterday at the Alameda County Zoo. ...

18.
A fight between a lioness and a bear at Bostock's zoo in the cyclorama building yesterday resulted in the death of the bear in just about one round
Fight at Bostock's Zoo Was a Very Brief One. Animals Had Been Let Out for an Airing and Bruno Started Hostilities. Queenie Struck Him on the Head and Sunk Her Teeth Into His Neck.
Mar 5, 1902
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/689336482.html?dids=689336482:689336482&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Mar+05%2C+1902&author=&pub=Boston+Daily+Globe&desc=LIONESS+KILLS+A+BEAR.&pqatl=google




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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 16:02
America’s Circuses and Menagerie fights

{1924}
King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger.
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sVYEUcbgJKLqiwLv7YHgBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sVYEUcbgJKLqiwLv7YHgBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ
- Lions 'n' Tigers 'n' Everything

{1954}
- Lion kills tiger with one blow in Boltimore zoo.(Documentary)

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1GsKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LUsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5277,4642778&dq=lion+kills+tiger&hl=en


{1935}
~Guinness book of animal fact and feat
In the town Bedford, Masachusetts a zoo lost a tiger to a
lion. “A lion and a tiger battled to the death here. The lion won. When Biller Brothers Circus moved on to its next stop, it left behind the carcass of the loser, a tiger weighing a little over a quarter of a ton.”

{1924}
King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger.
http://bks6.books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72FW_x372FbAL-NpvwJ3pMrznyRB9IiH1OtS13bINsx3v4xI5-IjosMriA187vvyzC8YfpX5324ZjkXq9_HbRDXX-9Gkn_fZUzZlBsqETUzimspHjqaYlGXeJM4n-ztyRJxnKFK
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sVYEUcbgJKLqiwLv7YHgBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
Lions 'n' Tigers 'n' Everything

{1924}
lion kills tiger "The Jungle behind Bars"
~by Courtney Ryley Cooper

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Jungle_Behind_Bars.html?id=ZyBTHQAACAAJ - http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Jungle_Behind_Bars.html?id=ZyBTHQAACAAJ

{1902}
Lion kills male tiger, Fort Wayne, 1902
,
NEW YORK. Nov. 2. -Tradition that the tiger is a better animal then the lion in a fight has been disproved as Sr. Nicholas Garden, where one of the biggest striped denizens of the Bengal jungles is suffering from rips and tears inflicted upon him by one of the late king of the South Africa forests. The press agent did not give this story out. Probably he would lose his job if he had, for Bostock is careful to suppress any news tending to show that his animals ever exhibit sanguinary instincts when in the arena. The two big cats in question were brought together several days ago to become familiarized with each other for purposes of a contemplated act in the show ring. The tiger walked nervously up to the lion and began rubbing his nose over the latter's haunches. A low growl was the response. But when the tiger inserted his teeth in the lion's mane, Leo uttered a roar, unmasked his ivories and crouched. The tiger retreated a few feet and then sprang high in the air, intending to come down on the lion. But Leo deftly side-stepped and when the tiger alighted he grabbed it by the head. A twisting of the teeth and a large section of the tiger's face, including one eye, was gone. The trainers and attendants now tried to separate the beasts, which for several minutes rolled over and over each other, snarling, roaring, biting and scratching. Finally they were separated. The tiger, mutilated and bleeding, cowered in a corner, while the lion was defiant in another.

~FORT WAYNE MORNING JOURNAL GAZETTE, MONDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1902.

Clyde beattys has worked with animals for just about 40 years. An Had the biggest acts of his time (Mixing) 40-50 lions and tigers together in the same show steel cage arena.
">{1933}
2 tigers killed, In the the big cage
which was aired on 1933 in this 1962 article Clyde mentions 3 tigers were used an 2 were killed by his lion -

This is the movie
http://www.frequency.com/video/big-cage-lion-vs-tiger-good-quality/19567532">http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/560/The-God-Father-Animal-Trainer-Clyde-Beatty
{1933}
2 tigers killed, In the the big cage
which was aired on 1933 in this 1962 article Clyde mentions 3 tigers were used an 2 were killed by his lion -

This is the movie
http://www.frequency.com/video/big-cage-lion-vs-tiger-good-quality/19567532
{1935}
Clyde beatty Sikestonians saw a lion kill a siberian tiger in a local town circus
act.

http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/ - http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/
{1936}
Clyde beatty 18 tigers killed by lions 1936
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ
{1937}
Caesar the lion kills another tiger
- {1939}
- Clyde beatty 25 tigers were killed by his lions 1939
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA564&dq=since+I+first+began+mixing+the+two+species+popular+mechanics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fOWeUPS_E8zSigKRu4CQAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA
{1941}
Clyde beatty’s Lion kills Puna the male tiger


{1944}
Caeser kills 2 more tigers
Twice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly 1944
- {1947}
- Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
{1950}
Clyde beatty a new young lion named prince kills sleika the tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=3h4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=3h4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg
{1951}
Clyde beatty lion kills tiger 1951
http://books.google.com/books?id=Oh8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=Oh8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA
{1951}
Clyde beatty lion named prince kills another siberian tiger 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19510220&id=xP8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4129,3364299 - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19510220&id=xP8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4129,3364299
{Unknown date}


lion saves clyde beatty
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT72&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT72&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCQ

Milwaukee Journal november 12, 1959
A tiger never fight’s fair, but in a fair fight a lion can whip any animal…

So what I am getting is Clyde beattys most troble maker lions were Prince and Detroit, Detroit killed atleast 6 tigers and prince the young lion new to clydes act killed 4 tigers and prince killed a hand full of other lions, you also have sultan who whipped every tiger he went up against and you then have Caeser who also killed 4 tigers an a few lions. An according to beatty pharoe was his biggest an most dominant lion controling an submiting any lion or tiger around him. Majority of them were bengal tigers and a few around 10 were siberians.

Army and Navy chronicle, Volume 6
Tiger’s avoid lion’s in combat
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_kRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA411&lpg=RA1-PA411&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=6SgbuGhV-3&sig=NVNf1GQYYoCLvPysS7qQmB2U3Qc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tXkfUN3QM4vnigLR9oGQDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBjhG - http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_kRAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA411&lpg=RA1-PA411&dq=ancient+lion+battle+tiger+fight&source=bl&ots=6SgbuGhV-3&sig=NVNf1GQYYoCLvPysS7qQmB2U3Qc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tXkfUN3QM4vnigLR9oGQDQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBjhG



Ringling brothers poster of a lion defeating a tiger…




{1985}
Richmond virginia
Alan gold’s circus lion kill’s male tiger Alan Gold also had a mixed group. In 1985, a free for all erupted. He lost two lions and one tiger. The lions were killed by other lions. The tiger was killed by a lion. Gold, regarding the way both cats fight, compared to Beatty. He stated lions fight in a calculated way, where as tigers, in a free for all, are nervous and vulnarable. Source=Tiger fan named Peter Yuku.com

{1980}
Dave hoover tiger’{s} killed by lion’s


{1976}

Beatty-cole lion’s kill 2 tiger’s


{1973}
Two lion cubs eat tiger
~News And Courier - Aug 27, 1973
A state of emergency was declared in Alexandria after a young circus tiger vanished from its cage, Newspapers reported that the tigers remains were found several hours later in the cage of two lion cubs.
~6th coloume down…
http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lion+eats+tiger+&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO-8859-1&q=lion+eats+tiger+&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers




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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 19:28
Crap, I put the Edward an Dan account on the top an forgot to erase it on the third colome, on my last post... dam, I cant edit it, I'll correct my main archive so it dosent happen again.

My bad.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Venkytalks
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 00:05
Hi Prime.

Very interesting collection of articles from many on this interesting topic.

I dont have any actual data on the subject. 

But I would really not try to compare zoo tigers and zoo lions or captive animals because they are very different in the wild.

Adult male lion and adult male Bengal tiger are a fairly even match for size. Tiger is stronger weight for weight and more agile. It is also a lot more cunning and wily.

The lion is more courageous and would not back down from a fight - whereas the tiger would avoid the fight unless it was sure of winning. 

If a smaller lion comes across a larger tiger, it would still attack, even if it lost the fight.

If a smaller tiger comes across a larger lion, the tiger would run away and change its territory.

If a lone adult male lion and tiger matched for size were in the same area, the tiger would know about the lion before the lion even realised there was a tiger around. The tiger would definitely not tolerate a lion in its area. It would probably stalk and pick its terrain - perhaps in the water where the tiger is more comfortable and the lion would be at a disadvantage - or just after the lion has eaten a hefty meal and is sluggish. 

And then the tiger would kill it.

If the matched tiger wandered by chance in front of a lion, the tiger would run away. The lion would charge and chase it, but the tiger would probably get away. The tiger would never fight at a disadvantage.

The tiger never wants to hurt itself and usually attackes those which are smaller and weaker then itself, where victory is certain.

The lion doesnt mind getting injured and would fight regardless of the consequence. It would never back down from a fight.

Which is why it will always be the king of the beasts - because of its nature and not its absolute strength.


-------------
Venky


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 03:38
Originally posted by Venkytalks


Hi Prime.
Very interesting collection of articles from many on this interesting topic.
I dont have any actual data on the subject. 
But I would really not try to compare zoo tigers and zoo lions or captive animals because they are very different in the wild.
Adult male lion and adult male Bengal tiger are a fairly even match for size. Tiger is stronger weight for weight and more agile. It is also a lot more cunning and wily.
The lion is more courageous and would not back down from a fight - whereas the tiger would avoid the fight unless it was sure of winning. 
If a smaller lion comes across a larger tiger, it would still attack, even if it lost the fight.
If a smaller tiger comes across a larger lion, the tiger would run away and change its territory.
If a lone adult male lion and tiger matched for size were in the same area, the tiger would know about the lion before the lion even realised there was a tiger around. The tiger would definitely not tolerate a lion in its area. It would probably stalk and pick its terrain - perhaps in the water where the tiger is more comfortable and the lion would be at a disadvantage - or just after the lion has eaten a hefty meal and is sluggish. 
And then the tiger would kill it.
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">If the matched tiger wandered by chance in front of a lion, the tiger would run away. The lion would charge and chase it, but the tiger would probably get away. The tiger would never fight at a disadvantage.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">The tiger never wants to hurt itself and usually attackes those which are smaller and weaker then itself, where victory is certain.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">The lion doesnt mind getting injured and would fight regardless of the consequence. It would never back down from a fight.</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">Which is why it will always be the king of the beasts - because of its nature and not its absolute strength.</span>



Hey Venky house it goin,

I can agree with that, it makes alot of sense if you analyze there living patterns, lions are social an have pecking orders like wolves an hyenas do, so being that they are use to pushing each ther around it revolves around the leader ship an monarch role, where they can afford to get injured because they can rely on the pride for a fall back plan, where as a tiger being mostly solitary has to be asure or extremely confident that he will win the fight, because he must always take care of himself, a slight injury can lead to being unable to hunt, which for being solitary would lead to starvation. So it is safe to say just on that catagoire of social patterns, a lion will always be more willing to fight than the tiger let alone the many other reasons the lion has that protains to being more of a better fighter, a lion is a very good hunter too, but I think in stealth an dexterity a tiger can some what be called a better "solitary" hunter to an extent.

As for the tiger attacking the lion through ambush, it would only work in a very, very dense jungle, out in the open plains, wooded areas, deserts an other places where they co-exsisted once before... the lion will have the better camouflage that blends in with bushes an thickets of grass. Not to mention there are nomadic lions, an its fairly possible to have a 1 on 1 in the wild for it has been well documented, but averagely a lion lives with a pride, so an ambush would be a suicide ticket once the whole pride is alerted by the comotion.

But I do agree that the best an highest creditable form of an account should be in the wild, circus an captive accounts are reliable to a degree but the best should be wild ones, but even finding an account where they are same aged an sex along with status would be hard to find.

So as of right now the search continues to find more wild encounters, alot of people dont know that lions lived in jungles too an boust out ignorant rants thaat lions shouldent be called King of the beast, so I have found prime places where they co-exsisted once in India, heres what I got so far with substantial proof...

Biologist: Dan Metcalfe

~Brisbane, Queensland, Australia

The word jungle comes from the Sanskrit 'jangala' which refers to a dense dry thicket, typically a seasonally dry monsoon forest, and one in which lion would certainly be one of the top predators.* Popular literature took the term and applied it in ignorance to many vegetation types which are more structurally complex than the relatively simple forests which North Americans and Europeans are used to, generating confusion along the way?* This has only been exacerbated by popular culture again promulgating the notion of the lion as the king of the jungle, which is patently ridiculous even in jangala, where lions would face competition from leopard and wild dogs, challenges from rhino and elephant, and at least young lion face a risk of predation from dogs, pythons and other predators.

Rainforest has been adopted as a term largely replacing the popular use of jungle, but again this is a term with a specific meaning to do with water relations (rainfall and evaporation rates) and is recognized in many differs forms, including tropical and temperate types.


The game animals of India, Burma, Malaya, and Tibet:
being a new and revised edition of 'The great and small game of India, Burma, and Tibet,*(Google eBook)
Richard Lydekker
R. Ward, limited, 1907 - 408 pages
The Indian Lion
Going back to earlier days, we find in the Oriental Sporting Magazine for 1832 over the signature of "Collector," whose address is given as Baroda, a full account of two sportsmen shooting a large lion off elephants; and in the Bengal Sporting Magazine of October 1838 a writer signing himself "Kattywar" states that he shot eleven lions between the 14th and 24th of May, to which three more were added between the 19th and 27th of July. Throughout the later volumes of the Bengal Sporting Magazine, the India Sporting Review and the revived Oriental Sporting Magazine, which followed it, there are occasional articles descriptive of lion-shooting; and in the Asian for June 30, 1885, Colonel Martin related how he and General Travers killed two lions on a hill to the west of Goona in Gwalior in 1860, and two years later he and Colonel Beadon at Patulghur, some seventy miles north-west of Goona, bagged no less than eight. One of the last lions killed in Central India was shot by Sir Montague Gerrard at Cheen Hill, nine miles from Goona, on Waterloo Day 1872; and in the Asian of April 7, 1893, mention is made of another shot by Colonel Hill in 1873. I° Guzerat—exclusive of Kathiawar— the last survivor is said to have been killed in 1888. Since that date there have been no lions elsewhere than in the Gir.
In the wild district between Saugor and Jhansi lions were by no means very uncommon about forty years ago. In 1866 two engineers engaged in the construction of the railway between Allahabad and Jabalpur shot one close to the line; and about thirty years before lions were comparatively common in the Ahmedabaddistrict, while in the first and second decades of the last century they were to be met with in Sind and as far to the east as Palamow and Rewa.
http://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=LApc3WoCqk&sig=QJTRA0dkkaGMny0k4047EERpHOA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UxU9UJ6lEuH9ygH9wIHgBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA289&lpg=PA289&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=LApc3WoCqk&sig=QJTRA0dkkaGMny0k4047EERpHOA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UxU9UJ6lEuH9ygH9wIHgBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

A Book of Man Eaters
Mittal Publications
It is curious that, thirty years after the last lion was killed in hariana, notraditions of the animal remained in that part of the country. It was still found in guzerat in 1857, and it extended into the Saugor and Narbadaterritorries. In 1847 one was killed in the Damoh district by a native hunter; in 1850 two were seen near goona. In 1865 a party of officers stationed at Morar in gwalior, as described in the Oriental Magazinefor 1871, found three lions and killed two tweleve miles west of that place.No lions had been seen near gwalior for twenty years, although they were still pretty plentiful about seventy miles to the south. In 1866 a party of three, engaged in the construction of the Jubbulpore railway, killed a lion a short distanceto the west of the eightieth mile from Allahabad near the village of Punta in the Rajof Pattachar.
http://books.google.com/books?id=BfCthJZx5RwC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=bEXCWP9i5h&sig=1agb8C37tNNJ8i-PwNJHS28eVns&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6hk9UIzKDajaywH-xIDwAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=BfCthJZx5RwC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=lions+in+goona&source=bl&ots=bEXCWP9i5h&sig=1agb8C37tNNJ8i-PwNJHS28eVns&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6hk9UIzKDajaywH-xIDwAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ

Locations above^ graphed on a map of India showing there Ranges
Proof that lions districts and habitats ranged all across of India's Jungles...

Asiatic lion shot in Jungle

Palamau 1814:
From the Alamgirnama we learn that the Northern frontier of Palamau was only 50 miles from Patana the seat of the Chero Raja was something of a city. It was fairly well populated with many bazaars and protected by two strong Forts, one on the summit of neighbouring hill, the other on the plain. There are two extensive forts of bricks and stone which are worth a visit. The walls, which are in fair preservation, are about 5 feet in thickness, and that the old fort bears marks of canon balls and bullets in many places . The gate leading to the old fort, the court room, and temple and Zanana quarters of the Raja as also the two deep but silted up wells in the old fort are very interesting.

Most interesting of all is the massive and beautifully carved stone gate ‘The Nagpuri gate’in the new fort and a round room, in which a well had been sunk to provide a supply of drinking water incase of a siege. The Auranga river flows close by. There are high hills and dense jungles all around. On the frontier, there were three great Forts, viz, Kothi,Kunda and Devagan , and it was against these that Daud khan proceeded to march.
http://palamu.nic.in/palamufort.htm - http://palamu.nic.in/palamufort.htm

Mount Abu 1872:
Nature Trails (Jungle Trails)
History of Mount Abu
The history of Mount Abu is as diverse as the city itself. It was once a part of the Chauhan kingdom of Rajasthan and served as a summer resort for the Rajput kings of the region. After that, it was leased by the British government from the then Maharaja of Sirohi for use as the headquarter of the resident to Rajputana (another name for Rajasthan).

Mount Abu was the home of many saints and sages in the old days. Legend has it that all the 330 million gods and goddesses of the Hindu pantheon used to visit this holy mountain. It is also the place where the great saint Vashishth lived and performed a yagna (sacrificial worship on a fire pit) to create four Agnikula (four clans of fire) to protect the earth from demons. The yagna was supposed to have been performed near a natural spring, which emerged from a rock shaped like a cow's head. According to another legend, once sage Vashishth's cow Nandini was trapped in a deep gorge and could not free herself. The sage appealed to Lord Shiva for assistance. The Lord sent Saraswati, the divine stream, to help flood the gorge so that the cow could float up. Vashishth then decided to ensure that such mishaps did not occur in future. He asked the youngest son of Himalaya, the king of mountains to fill the chasm permanently. This he did with the assistance of Arbud, the mighty snake. This spot came to be known as Mount Arbud and was later changed to its present form - Mount Abu. This place is held in reverence by Jains as well since Jain scriptures record that Lord Mahavira, the 24th Jain Tirthankar (spiritual leader), also visited Mount Abu and blessed the city.
http://www.mountabu.nic.in/naturetrail.htm - http://www.mountabu.nic.in/naturetrail.htm

Rewah 1866:
The Rewah jungles are famous for their big game. Tigers are met Fauna. with in considerable numbers, while bears, panthers, tambar (Cervus unicolor), chinkdra (Gazella benetii) and other species usually found in Peninsular India abound. Wild fowl of all classes are common throughout its area.
The climate of Rewah is subject to considerable extremes of tem- Climate perature, especially in the hilly tract where the heat is often excessive, (Table I). while the cold season is of short duration.
~Speeches, Volume 2*(Google eBook)
Henry Charles Keith Petty-FitzMaurice Lansdowne (Marquess of)
Office of the Superintendent of Government Print., India, 1894 - 706 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=u5ZFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA559&lpg=PA559&dq=Rewah+jungles&source=bl&ots=nuz7lJwtqJ&sig=Lv53IHCOmV3a7bEMQjK0sBfab50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4EICUa6aE-eujAK1xoGoDQ&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=u5ZFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA559&lpg=PA559&dq=Rewah+jungles&source=bl&ots=nuz7lJwtqJ&sig=Lv53IHCOmV3a7bEMQjK0sBfab50&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4EICUa6aE-eujAK1xoGoDQ&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA

Damoh 1847:
Tribal people comprise an important part of Damoh’s demographic set-up. They mainly live in jungles and remote areas of the city. They mostly depend on natural resources, while the rest of the population depends on agriculture for livelihood.
http://zeenews.india.com/blog/damoh-%e2%80%93-the-centre-of-india_394.html - http://zeenews.india.com/blog/damoh-%e2%80%93-the-centre-of-india_394.html





A page from Kelileh o Demneh dated 1429, from Herat , a Persian translation of the ancient Indian Panchatantra (These tales depict characters based on local wild animals from the jungles of India, including the Asiatic / Indian-Persian lion) derived from the Arabic version — Kalila wa Dimna

India: From Indus Valley Civlization to Mauryas
By Gyan Swarup Gupta, Pramod Kumar
Lions and tigers in the indu valley
http://books.google.com/books?id=jbjT9GG__nEC&pg=PA72&dq=gupta+lions+fight+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y2WhUNWZMon2iwKd3oHICw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=jbjT9GG__nEC&pg=PA72&dq=gupta+lions+fight+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y2WhUNWZMon2iwKd3oHICw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA

http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/6139677/il_fullxfull.242973691.jpg - http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/6139677/il_fullxfull.242973691.jpg

Damoh's Jungle/Rainforest
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3126/2648846236_c8e6c218d0_z.jpg - http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3126/2648846236_c8e6c218d0_z.jpg

Lion attacking tiger in Jungle by Delocroix
http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/eugene_delacroix/lion_savaging_tiger_hi.jpg - http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/eugene_delacroix/lion_savaging_tiger_hi.jpg

Indian lion resting in Jungle...
http://ak0.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1839541/preview/stock-footage-long-shot-lion-resting-in-jungle.jpg - http://ak0.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1839541/preview/stock-footage-long-shot-lion-resting-in-jungle.jpg

^Rewa, somaliland, Barsa swamps of bengal,
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-highlight/DP147451.jpg - http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/ph/web-highlight/DP147451.jpg

Lion defeating tiger in Jungle
http://gallery.myff.org/gallery/1342914/lion-images-02.jpg - http://gallery.myff.org/gallery/1342914/lion-images-02.jpg


The Wonders of the Jungle


Sarath Kumar Ghosh
pubOne info LLC, Sep 15, 2010
Many a man who has met a lion in the jungle by day has escaped in saftey by just standing still making no sound and no motion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=bFFVjC5vLDIC&pg=PT116&lpg=PT116&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=SVV_YMwegI&sig=WVltuM7UY35QJVMc2Uxo5nrQWFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KkFQUJnCFcaGjALq5YDoBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw - http://books.google.com/books?id=bFFVjC5vLDIC&pg=PT116&lpg=PT116&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=SVV_YMwegI&sig=WVltuM7UY35QJVMc2Uxo5nrQWFU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KkFQUJnCFcaGjALq5YDoBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw
Punta raj of pattacachar, patalgraph, bakhtiari photograph of a Indian lion
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Panthera_leo_persica_male.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Panthera_leo_persica_male.jpg


The Jungle Survivor: A Thriller About the African Jungle
By Stephen L Takomana (Pe), Stephen L Takomana
http://books.google.com/books?id=OYf_VULlsLIC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=EWrcZrcZlz&sig=XrKh-eERyLcEEpK75pFvioJNTUY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W0NQUMO-FMi6iwLB6YHIDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAjgK - http://books.google.com/books?id=OYf_VULlsLIC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=lion+in+the+jungle&source=bl&ots=EWrcZrcZlz&sig=XrKh-eERyLcEEpK75pFvioJNTUY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W0NQUMO-FMi6iwLB6YHIDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAjgK

Jungle Crackers
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614gW5WbgGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg - http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/614gW5WbgGL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


3 asiatic lions fighting 3 bengal tigers in gir forest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM

Lion in jungle of India killing an eating croc
http://www.trendwatching.com/newsletters/DEC05/rousseau.jpg - http://www.trendwatching.com/newsletters/DEC05/rousseau.jpg

India's Art prints of lions in jungles
Lion hunting in jungles
Asiatic lion in jungle
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Asiatic_african_lions.jpg/220px-Asiatic_african_lions.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Asiatic_african_lions.jpg/220px-Asiatic_african_lions.jpg
Asiatic lion feeding in jungle
http://www.theartstory.org/images20/works/rousseau_henri_4.jpg - http://www.theartstory.org/images20/works/rousseau_henri_4.jpg

Artfact of a lion killing a Guar in a dense Jungle
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7128/7128-h/images/image_045.jpg - http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7128/7128-h/images/image_045.jpg

Indian lion with other big cats near Jungle
http://www.profimedia.si/photo/asiatic-lion-lioness-bengal-tiger-leopard-jaguar/profimedia-0000847275.jpg - http://www.profimedia.si/photo/asiatic-lion-lioness-bengal-tiger-leopard-jaguar/profimedia-0000847275.jpg

- The Jungle Lion
Jungle cruise
http://www.matterhorn1959.com/blog1/2011junglecruise3.jpg - http://www.matterhorn1959.com/blog1/2011junglecruise3.jpg
-

Sociobiology: The New Synthesis

By Edward O. Wilson
Lions and tigers did coexist over most of India until the 1800's, when lions began to be reduced even more quickly than tigers by intensive hunting and deterioration of the environment.
http://books.google.com/books?id=v7lV9tz8fXAC&pg=PA9&dq=lion+tiger+coexisting&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mm8QUdWrH8vMigKfh4GABg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA
~Harvard University Press, 2000 - Science - 697 pages

Science Under Siege: Defending Science

Lions and tigers once coexisted naturally in India, and although they are
outwardly very different, they can mate to create tigons or ligers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=w8e5-URInCUC&pg=PA121&dq=lion+tiger+coexisted+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a3MQUeG5J6jkiwLa_IGgDg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw

The Asiatic or Persian Lion (Panthera leo persica, Meyer 1826) in Palestine and the Arabian and Islamic Region.*
By: Norman Ali Bassam Ali Taher Khalaf-von Jaffa.
Note: This article was published in "Gazelle : The Palestinian Biological Bulletin". Number 58, October 2006, pp. 1-13.

The Asiatic or Persian Lion (Panthera leo persica) is a subspecies of lion (Panthera leo).
The last remnant of the Asiatic Lion, which in historical times ranged from Caucasus to Yemen and from Macedonia to India through Arabia and Iran (Persia), lives in the Gir Forest National Park of western India.
http://www.oocities.org/jaffacity/Asiatic_Lion.html.tmp


I guess the search will go on, the places would be most suspected to find wild encounters would be India, Pakistan, Arabia, Perssia, Armenia and a few other places that consist of Bengal tigers, and Caspian tigers who would most likely have encountered perssian lions, Indian/asiatic lions...no dought searching in the right places will eventually pull out some historical records, there are so many empires of the people of India, surely a few have some historical significance thats preserved.

So I'll see what I can find a little later....I'll spark you laters Vennky.

Alohas





-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Venkytalks
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 08:37
Regarding habitat the tigger and lion generally live in different types of forests in india. Gir and previous lion habitats were more open scrub deciduous forests. Tigers prefer denser forests where lions would find it difficult to hunt. Usually if a forest has lions the tigers will completely avoid the area despite both feeding mainly on spotted deer.

Re. stealth both creatures would be more active at night. Tigers have better sense of smell and are more wary and aware of their surroundings. As I said before the tiger would know all about the lion even before the lion knew there was a tiger around. The tiger would stalk the lion much better. But lone lion in tiger territory is a hypothetical situation


Camouflage would be irrelevant because of superior stalking ability of the tiger. Tigers get through very dense scrubs and thickets which lions would usually avoid. Tigers are better climbers and swimmers and can make their way through hilly terrain much better than lions.

The video of lions fighting tigers seem to be circus trained animals. Look at how many times the tiger catches the lion from the back side and how much more agile it is.  In a real fight it would bite the spine. The agility difference is very clear in the videos although it is clearly circus animals wrestling like cubs and not a real fight.tiger looks smaller than the lion even after allowing for the mane.

Tigers twist better use their forelimbs better and if the lion had no weight advantage tiger is more likely to win

The lions mane would be a big protection. But the tiger would be raking and bitibg three times more than the lion

. The tiger is simply the better fighter.
 
most adult male lions would be 25 to 50 kilos heavier than the average adult male tiger. I have seen a lot more puny tigers despie being male than puny male lions. Tigers seem to grow slower and mature slower. There is also a lot of geographical size difference in tigers.

In gir forest the lions form very small prides unlike african lions. No lion pride despite small size will ever tolerate a tiger in their territory.

But the tiger is a coward. The lion is courageous. That is why most people like the lion much more.


-------------
Venky


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2013 at 19:20
I agree that a Tiger is alot more suitable to swampy terrains, marsh pits, dense jungles an forest with an abundentcy of trees, they're physiology more suits an acrobaical physic. Better swimmers? Definitely, climers? About the same, they both are very large so it has to be a very well brached tree to climb, an average straight up an down tree can only be climbed by smaller cats an small to mid sized bears, being to big will not allow the bigger carnivores to be sustained on thin braches an both average at 420 pounds an can get to be as large as 300 Kg in the wild.

Stalking is possible, but lions have very accute hearing and smell too, so it could as well be both ways, again it would only work if the habitat is very thick an dense with plants an vegetational back grounds, because even if the tiger leaps from behind a one shot kill is alot harder then it sounds espeacially when its on something so similar as him self, thats like saying a tiger will stalk and ambush another tiger, I think they'll have enough dignity to alert the other an have a territorial dispute, due to sent markings an out call-roaring to alert others they are in there territory.

As for the Videos of them fighting, there are some good content of tigers holding there own an some manage-ing to get the best of some lions...which isint hard to belive because after all he is a kin of the lion and anatomically known by most similarly the same cat just out side wise has a different apperance it will also depend individually, not whole speices wise when both are isolated to an individual status, but the majority of videos show the tiger just throwing wildy, they hardly seem to want to stick around for the full fight, because most are captive they tend to have no choice (confined in the same cage)...but its well evident that they are very explosive...which leads to there down fall. Being too explosive can drain your stamina, any boxer can tell you that, throwing an missing can so even more, which almost all the videos that exsist show tigers bursting out with flurrys an only landing about half to just about 2/6 hits land, which shows they dont fight in a calculated way, a better boxer for sure in terms using both paws, but I cant agree with a better fighter in the overall. Lions are extremely gifted in fighting, thats basically the male lions job, tigers fight too, but only for mating and territorial disputes, thats only 2 reasons they fight...lions have many reasons they "must" fight, again...

Male Tigers Reasons for fighting:
#1 To challange the other (lone) male to gain rights to mate with the female.
#2 To ward off any other tiger he dosent like in his area.

Male Lions Reasons for fighting:
#1 To challange (Multiple) lions to gain rights to mate with the females.
#2 To Ward off nomadic males that can potentially kill there cubs.
#3 Fight amoungs each other in the pride for who eats first.
#4 Fight territeriol rival prides.
#5 Fight there own brothers an uncles an dads in high agressional disputes.
#6 Train there siblings an off springs that is constant through out there intire lives.

So being a better fighter, can only come with experince, as you can see ^ lions will always fight more than tigers, so the lion is always the more practiced and experinced at it. Its the same concept of a human fighter, if you put in an match a person who fought only once or twice in his life against a boxer or mma fighter that constantly goes to the gym an trains with his coaches, the one who trains more would be more knowledge-able in fighting an would be more "Game" in fighting in both pysicaly and mentally. Which would tend to vary also in how constant is the tiger, for humans can lose there edge an become sloppy after leaving the sport an become out of shape mentally and physicaly, but lions live in prides so they are constantly and consistantly gamed fighters, thats why wolves and dogs can trump bears an the average big cat, because they are pack affiliated, one on one not so much, but through tactics an working together wolves can bring down even the biggest of buffalos, an when a wolf achives the status of Alpha, even more so it has been known for the Alpha to be able to contend in single combat with predators an challangers much larger then them selves, through experince. The same concept of martial arts, if you learn enough size dosent really account for anything, experince trumps size and power almost every time.

Mentally staying game plays a huge roll too, a tiger isint much of a fighting machine, hes a killing machine...he needs a kill quick an fast thats why hes so explosive, a lion is more of a fighting machine which will be like a smart boxer, he will bide his time for the right moment and is confortable in ware-ing down his opponent, he dosent just go for the kill, the accumilation in bites and slashes will eventually add up, the lion as Clyde beatty states an what is evident in almost every video clip of lions and tigers fighting...likes the fight standing up, as you gestured an whats on videos, tigers more so go for the insta kill which leads to grappling and rolling over to get a fast throat grab, yet the lion like a mma striker will wait for the right time for a hay-maker, that is why they usually use one paw, it can generate more force while 2 paws requires to be used in a standing posistion, which diminishes its out-put power, lions fight in a 3-point stance like a foot ball player which generates more force, look at a foot ball player, if they started off the hike standing straight up, less tourqe an foward (powered) motion can be generated, so they start off low to the ground in a 3-point stance, alot of force can be generated that way, that is why foot ball players and sumo wrestlers take that position.

Another impliment in the lion being slightly superior to the tiger is his equipment/anatomy, sure tigers have a slightly bigger fang, only by a few centimeters, but the fact is the lion has fangs and claws just like the tiger, sure the tiger is slightly faster than the lion, but its not significant enough, thats like saying a olympic runner can beat up a olympic boxer because he can run faster an produce movement faster. So both have basically what the other has minorly distributed slightly different....but...the lion has something the tiger nor any other cat has, a Mane.

Power of the lion’s Mane


#1
Video proof #1 lions mane protects his neck
80% of swipe or bite is protected by the mane, as you can see the mane protect’s bite’s that can usually add up on a tiger, yet it has no effect on the lion in terms the lion can completely focus what he is doing which is draging around and mauling the tiger, which in the big cat fight world, every bite count’s…


#2.
Video proof #2 lions mane protects his neck
If it were a nother tiger or a maneless lion that first lunge should have been enough, but the lions mane is able to halt multiple attempts of a throat an neck grab.

.
#3
Experts opinion of the lions mane
lion’s mane protect’s male lion’s in combat
[ur]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_FtEEFZq_s[/url]

#4
Experts opinion of the lions mane
The lion also is protected around the neck by the heavy mane, which is an advantage. There is one instance I remember where a full grown lion and tiger engaged in combat, by unforeseen chance of course. It was when the John O’ Brien Show had its winter quarters in Philadelphia and I was connected with it. “A lion and a tiger were in a compartment cage, with a partition between. In some manner this partition was battered down in the night and the two big fellows got together. They had probably been issuing challenges to each other and promising what they would do to one another if the chance came. When morning arrived we found the two in the lion’s cage, the tiger dead and the lion all chew and clawed to pieces, but still full of fight.”
~George Conklln, “Adventures With a Circus”

#5
Experts opinion of the lions mane
Samantha Stephens, says the lions mane might not make a big difference, but it might be that crucial amount of difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK9etg51Do8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK9etg51Do8

#6
Documented account the mane protected a lion in a fight
Lion’s mane save’s him from tiger’s throat attempt, an also aidded the tiger to release due to breaking his breathing pattern.


#7
Animal Expert Clyde beattys opinion on the lions mane
Not so with the lion who fights like a dog with only his front paws and teeth. He carries the fight to his opponent, centering the attack on the tiger's throat while his heavy mane protects his own throat. And with his extra weight in the forequarters, ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA562&ots=3lTHEPWrtE&dq=lions+mane+protects+fights&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA563&lpg=PA562&ots=3lTHEPWrtE&dq=lions+mane+protects+fights&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

#8
Kruger parks opinion
http://www.krugerpark.co.za/faq-on-lion.html - http://www.krugerpark.co.za/faq-on-lion.html
The mane is also a means of protection to the face and neck during fights between male lions.

#9
Craig packer reinstate’s lion mane’s are for protecting



#10 Kailash Sankhala Indian zoologist opinion on the mane
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/kailash-sankhala-tiger-trust-1.jpg
There is no direct evidence, but if we examine the probabilities in the case of a confrontation between the two some inferences can be drawn. In a fight would de unable to get close to the vital joint of a lion’s neck because of his thick mane, but the tiger is vulnerable to the lion. The film showed that the tiger was at an immediate disadvantage. Tigers use a throat grip as their primary means of killing and the lion's thick protective mane prevented the tiger gaining a hold on the throat joint. On the other hand, the tiger had no special protection, so was vulnerable to attack. In this fight, the tiger was killed. In any inter-species confrontation lions would also have the advantage of the who pride. But in my opinion a tiger is no match even for a single lion of equal strength.
Tiger! The Story of the Indian Tiger, by Kailash Sankhala.
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A lion having a mane can give a huge advantage in multiple ways such as...

#1 It can make the tiger miss-judge the distance to get to the throat in high pace movements, ctaching only hair when trying to swipe or bite the throat while the lion sways and dodges.

#2 It can intimidate the tiger in thinking hes fighting a much bigger opponent than himself with the same visiual aspect attributes such as claws an teeth but the mane giving the illusion of almost 2 times his mass, which mentally would intimidate the tiger of not being sure of himself.

#3 It can protect the major kill point the tiger always tends to go for the neck, the shoulders, and areas around the head, either by sheilding the attack dimishing 2/5ths of its out put power, or tangling the tigers clays long enough for the tiger to lose stamina.

#4 If the mane is a Battle mane, thats similar to the Barbary lions mane that stretches all the way to the stomach, it can protect another way the tiger kills which is by dissembowling, which the tiger has done on your average (only head maned) lion before.

.... or it could just as well be the small enough leverage that decides the fight through the lion having just enough durbility factors over the tiger that protects the accumilations of many botes and clawings, if the two best fighters were equally matched in Mma, and one was permitted to wear a head gear for protection, then most likely he would win by durability factors, while one will be getting the full knock out punch effect, the one with the head gear would have only about 1/3rd of the puches effect.

So Again, I cant agree that a tiger is a better fighter, maybe a better individual hunter, the more acrobatical cat of the two, more explosive, faster, cunning, stalker and more similar to what a human concept of how a Boxer "looks like" but a lion is more proned and exposed to fighting, better equiped which protains to being more durable fighter, more experinced, an in my opinion is Ultimately the better fighter of the two.




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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Venkytalks
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2013 at 04:56
As I had said in the previous post, a lion's mane definitely protects the crucial neck and is a very big advantage. If the first rush attack of the tiger fails, the lion will win because of it. Even on the first attack, the mane will prevent the tiger from using his favourite and most effective killing bite. The teeth will miss the spots which anyway would be hidden deep inside the mane. Both the neck vertebrae and the arteries of the neck would be hidden and inaccessible.

And if an animal cannot see something, it will not bite it - since its visual cues would be thrown off kilter. 

The videos clearly demonstrate the efficacy of the mane, the tiger is unable to bite seriously. He is attacking from the back but is unable to finish the fight. He doesnt seem to know how to finish off the lion. Lion faces no such problem.

Tigers neck muscles and general back muscles are stronger than a lion of same weight. Limbs are also stronger and tigers can stand and fight better than a lion.

Re: Climbing, it is not climbing trees so much as climbing difficult hilly terrain. Lion will not be able to follow the tiger into it.

Tigers never fight fair though. If he meets an equal opponent, the tiger will rely on stealth and a sudden rush attack from the back when his opponent (other tiger or lion is such situation) is not looking. Otherwise tigers attack mainly based on a very big size advantage.

If the first attack fails, and an equally matched lion or other tiger turns around, the attacking tiger has no staying power and will run away. Lion will never run away from a fight. That itself is usually enough for most lions to defeat the tiger.


As I said, tigers in India never live in the same habitat as the lion despite eating the same food (deer). 

No lion pride will ever tolerate a tiger scent marking in its territory. They will chase it away. And no tiger catching a whiff of lions scent markings will ever linger - he would be high tailing it out of there.

Male lions are made for fighting - true. But they dont hunt as much - and are mainly involved in bringing down heavy prey like wild buffalo or  large antelopes. They are less involved in hunting of zebras, wildebeasts etc. And in these, the lion uses mainly his weight advantage to bring the prey down (since lionesses are too small to bring down buffalo).

So most of a lion's fighting is basically weight and staying power.

A male tiger hunts just as much as a female tiger - which makes him a larger version of a lioness. Weight for weight, a lioness is stronger and more agile than a male lion. If a female lion were as large as a male lion, she would be the Queen of the jungle.

So a male tiger would be stalking and killing on a daily basis and would be in much better condition. He would have killed maybe 2-3 leopards and a couple of smaller tigers in his life. He would be in prime condition from 4-8 years of age.

A lion would be having one big fight in his life when he and his brothers or coalition partners will drive away the lions of a pride. Usually around 4-6 years old, he would be in his prime for about 2 years before being driven away by another coalition. 

In Gir forest, the pride is small and so most have one lion and 2-3 lionesses and so the lion would be on his own rather than with brothers. 

Most lion fights dont have actual confrontation. There is roaring and a judgement call by the interloper as to whether the pride lion is strong enough or not. If the challenger feels he is stronger, his assessment would usually be correct. And he would attack and many times kill the older lion or chase him off. The challenger attacks only if he can sense that he is stronger and will win - because if he challenges and loses, he will not only be badly injured but also lose his confidence and never be successful again - so he basically has one big chance. The next challenge he will face will usually be after a couple of years and he will generally lose the challenge in the same fashion.

Fights with lionesses and smaller male offspring are usually not serious fights and are just tussles with the weaker lion running away.

A tiger on the other hand will travel for miles to stalk and kill another male tiger. The tiger kills another male not so much for access to female as just plain meanness and intolerance - just like lions kill Cheetah cubs and hyenas just out of meanness and intolerance, not for any real reason. 

Tigers will kill female tigers also just out of bad temper and even its own cubs which it has fathered. This despite lowering its own chance of mating and having progeny. It is just its mean nature. 

Lions will tolerate their own cubs usually (not always - sometimes they do kill them). Lions will also usually tolerate lionesses.

Lions will hear the pride lion roaring in the night and come near until it can smell the scent markings. The challenger will aqpproach cautiously in day time and scout the pride lion and assess for its strength. A younger weaker lion will just run away. If the pride lion sees this lion, it will chase and if it catches it, then its finished off. Otherwise the challenger runs and lives to fight another day.




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Venky


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2013 at 14:46
Yeah I can agree with almost everything you said
I really dont know what was there eco system an main predation animals, most likely Boar, Deer, Guar...an what ever they hunt in africa has almost the same things in india of course excluding giraffes and such, an they wernt in great amounts of herds more so just smaller quanitys.

As for muscle toned, the tiger has stronger back limbs for better leaping and acrobatics, speed and dexterity, there fore arms have thicker muscle for grabing and holding which usually they either throw flurys or grapple and hold on, while the lions have bigger broader and stronger frontal upper bodys, which aids stronger swipes and flipping things on there back side, without the twisting so much and flipping around, his stance is more broad an stiff more so the tiger is flexible an usually resorts to the death roll, while the lion likes to work the body an fight standing up, you can tell the difference like in Mma, a jujitsu guy like to get the person down to do there signature moves, while the striker will stay on his feet an try an K'O him from the standing position the same as the tiger trying to grapple an roll the lion while the lion tends to swing away with Knock out one hitters.

Yeah... hills an steep terrain is also more suited for the tiger, hes more built like the snow leopard, which caters to balance. Lions in India have pretty big prides too, they usually still consist of 2 males an 8 females an can rival there african cousins too to just about 30 lions in one pride...
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g312616-d970103-r131173411-Makalali_Private_Game_Lodge-Hoedspruit_Limpopo_Province.html - http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g312616-d970103-r131173411-Makalali_Private_Game_Lodge-Hoedspruit_Limpopo_Province.html

Africa though consist of more males in coalitions an prides
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TyYGfELp26w/UBkguV9xpTI/AAAAAAAA1LM/fIZZpoQm6qE/s1600/resting-lions-tanzania_56400_990x742.jpg - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TyYGfELp26w/UBkguV9xpTI/AAAAAAAA1LM/fIZZpoQm6qE/s1600/resting-lions-tanzania_56400_990x742.jpg
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv42/stijnbelgium/Notch2.jpg - http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv42/stijnbelgium/Notch2.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6135/5937743599_666d904559_z.jpg - http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6135/5937743599_666d904559_z.jpg
http://www.flysaavacations.com/img/products/311/Mapogo_lion_males_366x207.jpg - http://www.flysaavacations.com/img/products/311/Mapogo_lion_males_366x207.jpg

Tigers have had been recorded to have bunched up in coaltions before as quite rare, but the most I have ever seen was 4, still very far away from contending at max potentials against lions for territory...
[ur]http://www.stevebloom.com/images/b/005786-JM1.jpg[/url]


As for predations in general, both take what ever they can find an can consist of small animals too like fish, fox's an rabbits, but as for big game in general lions hunt much bigger animals weather with the pride or alone, its quite rare for a tiger to take on a full grown healthy guar an even survive the struggle, but lions are more consistant with even larger animals than guar...
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2148312&highlight=lion+tiger&page=14 - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2148312&highlight=lion+tiger&page=14

Lionesses are very good at hunting too, but I think the tiger/tigress as for he jungle setting is a better suited predator too, I also always favored the female tiger over the femlae lion in general an in fighting, but am learning that the lioness has been recorded holding here own to even male tigers an has a few records of killing even male tigers in captivity...

#1
A female lion and a Bengal tiger tangled suddenly and violently Sunday afternoon...Tiger Takes Beating .In .Tangle With Lion....
http://www.google.com/search?q=lion+tangles+with+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&ei=f8kjUeuJKMqEiwK5joHADw&start=20&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=lion+tangles+with+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&ei=f8kjUeuJKMqEiwK5joHADw&start=20&sa=N

#2
Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger (New’s article)



#3
The mengerine…Lions will not stay in the same cage with tigers. We tried this once, putting a lioness in with a Bengal tiger. There was a fierce fight and the lioness nearly killed the Bengal.Chapter V11
http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm - http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm

Most likely a male tiger will kill a lioness averagley, but for a lioness to win shows that {male lions mane's) catter to being superior to either tiger/tigress an lioness reguardless if its pound for pound. I really never heard of a female lion killing her male mate, one on one, but of course in teritorial fights the females usually always out number the males almost 8 to 1, so they will atleast drive him out...but I'm sure they have killed a few here and there.

Now, for the wild co-exsisting part, they actually have many times met already, we just have to find more information mainly from the 1700's an below periods, Ballou magazine a (Indian local newspaper & magazine) has documented 5 encounters where they met an fought, both challanged the other but no one won, they both were tired an beatin an decided to abondin the fight an head seperate ways, there was even a account recorded by a German zoologist in the mid 1800's one near the Gangis river where a wild lion and wild tiger met an fought a long hard battle both mutilated an torn up, but the lion managed to last long enough to be the victor....

31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”)

A drama at the Ganges.

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false-

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So you shouldent assume that they never met in the wild or co-exsisted in the same area just because google dosent have an abundentcy of (wild) records on the first look of typing in lion vs tiger, there are many records you just have to find them. If leopards and cheetahs can hold bay a lion an co-exsist with usually going by the golden rule.... when confronted by a lion, Run! A tiger can too co-exsist an avoid the extreme, but of course the tiger is a very proud animal too, he will lay tooth an claw before he goes down, an if its one on one, I would gesture its still fair game on a 50/50 depedning on there status at the time.





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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2013 at 23:02

What the hell is this, Bias?

Ha haaa ha haa ha, does these people even know how you’d suppose to make a measerment that’s on a “scientifical scale”??? You first have to get actual confirmed heights of atleast 100 tigers and 100 lions, then divide them both lion and tiger seperately, what evers the sum, you then have to find a lion and tiger that’s standing the exact same height of that sum, that will be the average height of a lion and tiger. Then you can compare them by using those 2 specimens as your chart or diagram implimation.

You cant just randomly grab a “taller tiger” or blow up the picture an make like the tiger is larger (on assumptions) an expect a scientist to buy that bullshit.

It seems all the so call scales “comparing heights”, shave off way to much mane of the lion where he purposely looks skinny, lions are more robust an muscular in the upper quarters of there shoulders, so they will have atleast a hump like the grizzly bear, all they are doing is trying to make like the lion is some skinny pencil neck without his mane, when it is evident even in non full grown lions that there is a huge hump of muscle that is visual, an as they grow older there muscle will develop even greater, so all this crap scaleing are all bias, to "act" like the tiger is taller or at any margin close to the height of lions.

Its so easy to tell that they are in bias fashion, they remove the mane tuffs on the lions face as well, then compare a tiger without removing the tigers tufts of hair on his face, when it can be debunked in the most easyist way, how? The skull of the lion on average has always been larger, longer and wider than the tigers, yet in all these bullshit comparisons the tigers head is bigger than the lions? XD XD That’s because they are only blowing up the picture to act like the tiger is that much bigger, when in reality the lion will always look bigger, via his mane. The tiger can have the extra weight if he is indeed hevier just because hes slightly longer, so showing a taller tiger would only contradict the whole purpose of the word accurate.



The problem with this type of scaling is that it has no creditable weight to it, it could be a random picking of similar poportions, they can scale anything by stretching out the photo with photoshop, the only way to accurately tell if they are the same height is if they have confrimation that they are the same age, an are measered in the same photo, other wise the distance effect can manipulate whos actually bigger, no...The only way is, by putting two live lions and tigers flush next to each other neck and neck, thats the only way to accurately see the difference in height an size.

Not to mention, if we are talking about whos bigger weight wise an height wise as a (whole speices)... all the variables must be considered, not just taking random or the biggest of canidates but every sub-speices of that speices, add up all the heights, and all the weights that are confirmed with evidence, show the formula, an then compare a visual diagram.

Meaning=
That you have to add the weights of the Bengal tiger, to the weights of the siberian tiger, to the weights of the sumattran tiger, an so on, then divide the sum, so if you have for example, a 300 pound average for the sumattran tiger and 500 pound average for the siberian tiger then you have to add 300 + 500 which is 800 then divide it by 2 which is 400, so tigers in that formula would average 400 pounds, so you have to obtain all the weights of all the tigers =ever weighed from every sub-speices, an then divide them to get the sum answer for the average tigers weight, that goes the same for height, as stated above.

So far, It the data on hand proves that tigers average only 420 pounds for bengal and siberians...

The biggest wild indian tiger ever weighed by hewit (1938) was 258 kg=567 pounds.
The biggest Usrian tiger ever weighed was by baudy (1968) was
306 kg= 673 pounds.
www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-152-01-0001.pdf
On average the lion is the biggest living cat…
Tigers of the World: The Science, Politics and Conservation of Panthera Tigris
By Ronald Lewis Tilson, Philip J. Nyhus
http://books.google.com/books?id=XFIbjBEQolMC&pg=PA54&dq=indian+tiger+larger+than+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_qSRUKbXDua8igKLr4CYBw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA
The bengal tiger is thinner an lighter than the lion
The Illustrated Magazine of Art, Volumes 3-4
http://books.google.com/books?id=BRVaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=china++lion+fights+fighting+kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=MN04rRtSHs&sig=Nz3XMnyzoBeXmXUUAFzpcZ9KLAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZQGUOiWEIHg2gWah9S6BQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK
Table 1. Location, physical status, size and circumstances of deaths of Amur tiger males in the Russian Far East, 1970-1994.
Basically 40 year census showing tigers with none passing 200 kg
http://www.tigers.ru/articles/tab_eng.html#tab1
In size the lion is similar to the tiger
The London Magazine, Volume 19
By John Scott, John Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo
Hewett (1938), Inverarity (1888), Baker (1890), Buton (1933, 1948), Hornaday (1885), Meinertzhagen (1939) and Sanderson (1912) shows an average 420 lbs for bengal tigers.,
Dumbar brander weighed 45 very large tigers with its average being 420 pounds.
Bert klineburger 1990
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/DunbarBrandersaverage.jpg
Igor nikolaev weighed stated no tiger ever exceeds 650 pounds in the wild, an weighs 15 tigresses exploiting a 450 to estimated because not one tigres exceeded 320 pounds, also stating these are the difference between real weights and hunters estimates…
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/LeoTigris_Elite/Siberian%20Tiger/TigersoftheSnow.jpg
Histoire naturelle des mammifères ...
By Paul Gervais
Tiger Felis (Felis Tigris, Linnaeus). The real Tiger or Royal Tiger, should not be confused with sprinkled species of the same tribe, such as the Panther, the Once, etc.., Is an Animal exclusively Asian living in the islands of Java and Sumatra, throughout mainland India, the Chinese empire and to Siberia. Some copies come to the borders of Europe, and Mr. Nodmann reports that Tiger 1835 a large size was killed from Tiflis.
The Tiger is almost as large as the Lion, but he has the most elegant dress.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=lion+tigre+tue+lutte&sig=nw3ALChwJt2Jzjw0fgYMSUtgq7k&ei=PeJrUKnSIoGkigLGvYHoCg&id=R-ZAAAAAcAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&ots=sGh2DHpF3s&output=html_text
Translated here:
http://translate.google.com/
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g43/Lion-Tiger/BiasedTigers.jpg
The average male tiger weighs about 200 kg 227 would be considered one of the heviest.
~By trilok chandra majupuria
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/averagemalechitwantiger.jpg
Here some of the biggest amur’s ever weighed none exceeding 230 kg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/averagesizeofadultamurtigers.jpg
Dale miquelle Program director wcs russia, average weights of there siberian tigers 420 pounds.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/craigkennion/dsfdfsdsfdsfdfsd.jpg
Mel sunquist largest tiger was 600 pounds, an states most weights are suspected to please the king or royal guest
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Tigersandme/55.jpg
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg
http://english.savechinastigers.org/node/31
http://www.redorbit.com/education/reference_library/science_1/mammalia/2578132/bengal_tiger/
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/Tigersandme/55.jpg

Bold champ has a better weight configuration an display, but I'll see if I can format them better an show the formula my self next time.

So the facts will remain that the tiger is the worlds biggest cat speices [Individually], lions are the largest cat spices [on average], because the summtran tiger being so small lowers the average sum when dividing the whole factor, not to mention that Leo atrox the american lion must be included as well, when speaking of whole speices[/b...other wise you can only say the [Siberian tiger] is slightly bigger than a african lion, you cant just say tigers are bigger than lions, becuase that will not be true, so that bumps up another catagorie "if implimented".



-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2013 at 05:29
The historical documents and artifacts of lions and tigers conflicts through out history of…

{ The continent of Europa}


Fights with lions and tigers were staged for Kings of england.
http://books.google.com/books?id=maQ83GSNQxsC&pg=PA27&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Lions have been chosen as Englands national symbol because of his high qualities as nobility and courage espeically in warfare.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AOxqFP7kMj8C&pg=PA53&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a7shUcqhNuGuiQKTqIDwBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBDgU

Makes a lot of sense, the tiger being the lions equal in size strength an feriocty, but why would they chose a tiger over a lion on there national symbols when the tiger is known to be more the suspect to flee an the more reluctant to fight with a lion than vice versa, even female lions have been recorded using there ‘lion bravery’ an has challanged tigers submiting them into a panic…

Which is evident in comparing what poets of europe has recorded seeing in those past events, to modern accounts matching there discriptions such as…

{The 15th Century}

Edmund Spenser:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Spenser
~As when a Tiger and a Lioness

Are met at spoiling of some hungry prey,
Both challenge it with equal greediness:
But first the Tiger claws thereon did lay;
And therefore loth to loose her right away,
Doth in defence thereof full stoutly stond:
To which the Lion strongly doth gainsay,
That she to hunt the beast first took in hond;
And therefore ought it have, wherever she it fond.
http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

Which we have modern proof that this poets passage from the 15th century is quite accurate with videos of today even lioness besting some male tigers


and of recent times heres account that matches the discription of Edmund spensers occaision…
http://books.google.com/books?id=lltOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=There+was+a+fierce+fight+and+the+lioness+nearly+killed+the+Bengal.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZwpUbXBNuaxigLvtYGwBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=lltOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=There+was+a+fierce+fight+and+the+lioness+nearly+killed+the+Bengal.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZwpUbXBNuaxigLvtYGwBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


Lioness kills male tiger in british menagerie
~Grey River Argus, Volume LVII, Issue 9397, 23 March 1896, Page 4
">


{The 16th –17th Century}

Allan Ramsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Ramsay_(poet)">http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25



{The 16th –17th Century}

Allan Ramsay:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Ramsay_(poet)

The savage tiger feels the potent flame: The grim majestic lion growls his love To the resounding forest.—Wilder thou Than nature's wildest race, spurn'st at that power To which all nature bows.—But why of these, Of the grim lion, or the spotted lynx, Or wily serpent ?—these have sense and feeling. Even trees inanimate confess the god: See how the vine clings with a fond embrace; The mountain fir, the pine, the elm, the beech, Have each their favour'd mate: they burn, they sigh, &c
http://books.google.com/books?id=A14CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=allan+ramsay+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcshUZiDJrDXiAK18YDQAg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=A14CAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=allan+ramsay+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcshUZiDJrDXiAK18YDQAg&ved=0CF4Q6AEwCQ

Again, what old lierature an poets recorded still remain evident of todays recordings…




{The 17th Century}

Gotthold ephraim:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthold_Ephraim_Lessing
~The Monthly Christian Spectator. 1851-1859
Lion kills a tiger by bite-ing him in the throat…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA

Even till today, the same means of attack are persued in the same fashion…
~A lion is kept in a cage at Jeonju Zoo, North Jeolla Province, Wednesday, after attacking and killing a tiger in the zoo. The body of the dead tiger was taken to a veterinary hospital in the zoo. / Yonhap


A rarity accomplishment ^ that the tiger insues, because the tiger cant be the usual victor that results in death for the (male) lion… because of the lions mane will extend the fight an prolong the bout into only a scruffle an dominant win for the tiger, not a kill win which would take too long for the tigers poor stamina to last in the fight. While the same cannot be said for the tiger, a lion having one good hold on the tigers throat an it can be over in minutes, while the tiger will have to absolutely be dominating to actually accumilate a death toll for the lion.



{The 17th- -18th  Century}

Alexander Wilson:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Wilson - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Wilson

The shaggy lion rushes to the place,
With roar tremendous seizes on his prey.
Exasp'rate see 1 the tiger springs away.
Stops short and maddens at the monarch's growl;
And through his eyes darts all his furious soul.
Half willed, yet half afraid to dare a bound.
He eyes his loss, and roars, and tears the ground.
http://books.google.com/books?id=V58xAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA272&lpg=RA1-PA272&dq=The+shaggy+lion+rushes+to+the+place,+a+wilson+poet&source=bl&ots=M5aUYE8RZB&sig=1ZnKox02BxdH_xbprRT5oUp8uS4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BMIhUbytNInIiwKkzIAw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=V58xAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA272&lpg=RA1-PA272&dq=The+shaggy+lion+rushes+to+the+place,+a+wilson+poet&source=bl&ots=M5aUYE8RZB&sig=1ZnKox02BxdH_xbprRT5oUp8uS4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BMIhUbytNInIiwKkzIAw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA

Nothing at all has changed in terms there social traits over the years, still to this day, lions are shown the more aggressive an bolder of the two, proving that historical records from the past are true…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ

Second half explains the lion killing the tiger:
So looked stern Ralphus o’er the flowing coast,
To see his hopes, his tripe and labour lost ;

In rage he kick’d the fragments, when, behold !
Forth from the tripe a monstrous worm unroll’d
Its lazy length, then snarling wild its crest,
In accents shrill the shudd’ring youth addrest,
‘ I am disease ; curs’d be the unknown he
Who mark’d my purpose of destroying thee:

Had it succeeded, hear this, trembling hear,
Next mom had seen thee floating on a bier.’

It spoke, and grinn’d, when Ralph, with vengeful speed,
A rock’s huge fragment da.sh’d down on its head.
Deep groan’d the Wretch in death, Ralph trembling stole
One backward glance, then fled th’ accurs’d bowl.


Just like the historical records, there is a great consistancy over the ages of tigers being equal in stature and battle compositions, but ultimatley the lion in times of warfare the lion will rise up to the occaision and in the end kill the tigr akin to the old records of england still in modern times we have records of that happening like here…

King edward the lion kills Dan the bengal tiger.
http://bks6.books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72FW_x372FbAL-NpvwJ3pMrznyRB9IiH1OtS13bINsx3v4xI5-IjosMriA187vvyzC8YfpX5324ZjkXq9_HbRDXX-9Gkn_fZUzZlBsqETUzimspHjqaYlGXeJM4n-ztyRJxnKFK - http://bks6.books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72FW_x372FbAL-NpvwJ3pMrznyRB9IiH1OtS13bINsx3v4xI5-IjosMriA187vvyzC8YfpX5324ZjkXq9_HbRDXX-9Gkn_fZUzZlBsqETUzimspHjqaYlGXeJM4n-ztyRJxnKFK
- http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sVYEUcbgJKLqiwLv7YHgBA&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=QcWNEqI-wxUC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA69&dq=lion+attacks+tiger+menagerie&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


George Stubbs

~George Stubbs was born in 1724 in Liverpool, son of a currier and one of five children. He had a minimum of formal instruction: in 1739 he was briefly a pupil of the minor painter Hamlet Winstanley.
At the age of 30, in 1754 he went to Italy by boat. He is said to have gone with no enthusiasm for Italian art, but with a desire to confirm his view that nature, not art, was the only source of inspiration and improvement On the return journey he made a stop in Marocco. It is believed that a scene he saw there inspired his later picture Horse Attacked by a Lion (1762-1765).
http://www.abcgallery.com/S/stubbs/stubbsbio.html


Now to impliment, the tiger on the rock makes alot of sense, for we have records of modern accounts of this portraying the same thing.




You see ^, Those are the exact same things that george stubbs portrayed hundreds of years ago, so the proof is in the consistantcy of the old records, they are not fabrications because majority of the quoted records of modern accounts can match in clean detail of what we have still going on today, what would change?

M. Herbert’s mengerine lion kills male royal bengal tiger. 1851
.
~North jetty Havre Frnace
A rather singular episode took place during a storm in the menagerie of M. Hebert, the naturalist, on the north jetty, at Havre. A fine royal tiger, which had been for some days in one of the cages, had conceived a strong affection for a magnificent lion, and the two animals lived together on the most friendly terms. On the night in quitstlon, whether the animals became alarmed by the violence of the wind, or whether tome cause of quarrel had arisen between them, is not known; but a fight took place, as when M Hebert entered the place in the morning, li- found the tiger strangled, and the lion walking round trie dead body with all the triumph of a conqueror.






{The 18th Century}
Robert Southey:

http://www.nndb.com/people/949/000095664/
Guardant before his feet a Lion lay,
The Saxon Lion, terrible of yore.
Who in his wither'd limbs and lean decay,

The marks of long and cruel bondage bore j
But broken now beside him lay the chain,
Which gall'd and fretted late his neck and mane.

A T.ion too was couch'd before the Bride;
That noble Beast had never felt the chain; Strong were his sinewy limbs and smooth his hide,And o'er his shoulders broad the affluent mane Disbevell'd hung; beneath his feet were laid
Torn flags of France whereon his bed he made.

Full different were those Lions twain in plight.
Yet were they of one brood; and side by side
Of old, the Gallic Tiger in his might
They many a time had met, and quell'd his pride,
And made the treacherous spoiler from their Ire
Cowering and crippled to his den retire.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cTpHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA759&dq=Robert+southey+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wL0hUeeHJsm2igKCk4CIAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=cTpHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA759&dq=Robert+southey+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wL0hUeeHJsm2igKCk4CIAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Again the past historical records have accounts exactly the same with more modern accounts, like here…
chained-up lion defeats tiger 5 times
“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.”
Source: William H. Blackburne, head keeper of the National Zoological Park,
http://www.google.com/search?q=I%20once%20put%20a%20big%20tiger%20in%20a%20cage%20with%20a%20lion%20William%20H.%20Blackburn&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=I%20once%20put%20a%20big%20tiger%20in%20a%20cage%20with%20a%20lion%20William%20H.%20Blackburn&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search



]
Russian syctians
Lion with a grip on a tigers throat…
http://www.verasir.dk/images/chap21-48.jpg




The Field Naturalist, Volumes 1-2
The Field Naturalist, Volumes 1-2
[By James Rennie Orr and Smith., 1833]
lion defeating tiger
~ M. Boitard
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text - http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


*



7 year captive Lion fights 2 tigers in the tower of london

A asiatic (Indian) lion cub and his sister were a present to George IV from General Watson.

http://www.hrp.org.uk/MediaPlayer/ViewPlaylist.aspx?PlaylistId=123

An accidental but tremendous conflict took place in December, 1830, between a tiger and tigress, and a lion, in the menagerie of the Tower of London.
While one of the under keepers was in the act of cleaning the dens in the menagerie, he unguardedly raised a door in the upper tier of cages, by which the lion and tigers were separated. No sooner did the animals see each other, than their eyes glared furiously. The lion erected his mane, and, uttering a tremendous roar, bounded on the male tiger, who seemed as eager for the conflict as his adversary; and he was seconded in the attack by the female. The conflict now became tremendous, and the roaring of the combatants resounded through every part of the Tower, and was even heard in Tower Hill, and the adjoining streets. The other animals of the menagerie became variously excited by the horrid sounds. The beasts of prey evinced strong combative feelings, and joined their voices in fearful yellings, making every effort to get out of their confinement; while the more timid creatures shrieked with terror, and vainly endeavoured to conceal themselves in some remote corners of their cells.

of him, and by this conjunction of strength, the poor lion was fairly pinned against the bars, and his action greatly diminished. Still, however, this did not damp his courage, for he redoubled his roar of fury, while, at the same time, he uttered yells of distress. The keepers now appeared with rods of iron heated red at the ends, and applied them to the mouths and nostrils of the furious tigers, which forced them to quit their hold of the prostrate king of the forest. But as soon as they were separated, the lion and tiger again united in conflict, and seizing each other, the one by the upper, and the other by the under jaw, they tore one another with a more deadly and terrible fury than before. The red hot bars were again applied to their nostrils, but so keen were they in the contest, that it was with much difficulty they were again separated. The lion was then forced to his den by following him with the hot iron, when the doors were immediately shut upon him. The lion had the worst of it; but this is not to be wondered at, as he had two animals to contend with, which had been little more than twelve months from their native forests. The tiger, however, lost one of his canine teeth in the last bout. This terrible battle lasted upwards of half an hour.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5AssXdZVr4kC&pg=PA293&dq=fight+in+the+tower+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=5AssXdZVr4kC&pg=PA293&dq=fight+in+the+tower+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

The London Magazine Hunt and Clarke, 1827

The lion, we should submit, when compared with the tiger, is a noble animal; he possesses more confidence, and more real courage; he likewise differs in his permanent attachment to his mate, and protection of his young; while the tiger shows no partiality beyond the period of heat in the female, and is himself frequently the first and greatest enemy to his own offspring.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo - http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo


German engraving by Ludwig Beckmann, circa. 1875-80
Ludwig Beckmann (1822-1902). Aliases: Revierförster Holster. Professions: Painter; Animal painter; Lithographer; Illustrator.




Another occaision by George Stubbs




Lion and Tiger Fighting.
Painted & Engraved by James Ward, Painter & Engraver in Mezzotinto to His Royal Highness, The Prince of Wales.
London, Published June 1st. 1799 by James Ward & Co. No. 6 Newman Street.
Mezzotint. 605 x 475mm. Uncleanly trimmed 5mm into the plate at top.
A Study of 'Lion and Tiger' was exhibited in the Academy in 1798, an
http://www.grosvenorprints.com/stock.php?engraver=Ward%2C+James&WADbSearch1=Submit

To-day, Volume 3
By Jerome Klapka Jerome, Barry Pain
The lion has somewhat greater muscular power than the tiger, but the latter has greater quickness. In intelligence they are about equal ; andin general it may be said that a full-grown Nubian lion and a full-grown royal Bengal tiger (each, say, four years old) are a fair match. It would be an even guess which would kill
the other.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0V8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA213&dq=menagerie+lion+kill+fight+edmonds++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JWbqUMXrOM_EiwKzvYGgBg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=0V8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA213&dq=menagerie+lion+kill+fight+edmonds++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JWbqUMXrOM_EiwKzvYGgBg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ


 
In 1896, he drew caricatures for the magazines Simplicissimus and Jugend, and the next year he had his first solo exhibition in Vienna.
A trip to Egypt in 1914 resulted in 21 paintings as well as numerous watercolors and drawings; on the return journey he stopped off in Italy. In June he acquired the country seat Neukastel. After the outbreak of World War I he was sent as official war painter to the western front. The war experience brought about a search for new style appropriate to the expression of the horrors of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Slevogt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Slevogt


Ferdinand Victor Eugene Delacroix
French

http://hoocher.com/Eugene_Delacroix/Eugene_Delacroix.htm



George Frederick Watts


Born in London in 1817. His first major success as painter took place in the spring of 1843. Watts entered the competition for the decoration of the Houses of Parliament and won the prize of £300 for his drawing of "Caractacus led Captive through the Streets of Rome." He brilliant depiction of historical personalities impressed the judges and set the stage for a lucrative art career.
Watts used his winnings to travel to Italy where he stayed with expat aristocracy, Lord and Lady Holland. According to Art historian, William Loftus Hare "Italy, and particularly Florence, was perpetual fascination and inspiration to Watts. There he imbibed the influences of Orcagna and Titian—influences, indeed, which were clearly represented in the next monumental painting which he attempted. It came about that Lord Holland persuaded his guest to enter a fresh competition for the decoration of the Parliament Houses, and Watts carried off the prize with his "Alfred inciting the Saxons to resist the landing of the Danes."
http://www.georgefredericwatts.org/biography.html

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages/AN01104/AN01104155_001_l.jpg
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=3415433&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=5&numpages=10

[size=18] Edward landseer

Landseer was born in London, the son of the engraver John Landseer A.R.A...He was something of a prodigy whose artistic talents were recognised early on. He studied under several artists, including his father, and the history painter Benjamin Robert Haydon, who encouraged the young Landseer to perform dissections in order to fully understand animal musculature and skeletal structure. Landseer's life was entwined with the Royal Academy. At the age of just 13, in 1815, he exhibited works there. He was elected an Associate at the age of 24, and an Academician five years later in 1831. He was knighted in 1850, and although elected President in 1866 he declined the invitation.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1626830&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=10&numpages=10 - http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1626830&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=10&numpages=10


{The 19th Century}


{1957}
[germany]
Frankfurt Zoological Gardens,
a free for all erupted at performance of 10 big cats 8 lions an 2 tiger’s the 2 tigers were killed by the lion’s and 2 lions were killed by the remaining 6.
~Guiness records
another source here…
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/517851162.html?dids=517851162:517851162&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jan+18%2C+1957&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&desc=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&pqatl=google - http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/517851162.html?dids=517851162:517851162&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jan+18%2C+1957&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&desc=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&pqatl=google


lion kills three tiger’s Source: Altoona Mirror, September 27, 1928

Tributed ^ By Raden-slash



Rudolf kludsky had said several lions had killed his tiger’s.Several mean’s more than 4= A few years later, Rudolf Kludsky again decided to train a mixed group (22 animals). Mistake. It took three months to get them used to each other. But they were not yet ready to perform. During one of the first shows, the nervous and inexperienced animals engaged in a free for all. One tiger was killed by a lion. Source=Tiger fan named Peter Yuku.com
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad263/broekhuijsen/Interactions/Interactions-8.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5n65hqync1r9e7vdo7_1280.jpg
Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of  lions and tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/

{1903}
lion kills tiger ~Coventry Evening Telegraph, 25. of september 1903



Production person
Print made by Charles Mackie
1885-1920 (c.)

Description
A tiger and a lion fighting
Colour woodcut

Inscriptions
Inscription Content: Inscribed in grapite within image: "Charles H Mackie Imp./ Charles H Mackie Imp./ Mr Walls del./ 6" Also with Mackie's stamp.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_object_details.aspx?objectid=1543965&partid=1&output=Terms%2f!!%2fOR%2f!!%2f17062%2f!%2f%2f!%2fanimal-fighting%2f!%2f%2f!!%2f%2f!!!%2f&orig=%2fresearch%2fsearch_the_collection_database%2fadvanced_search.aspx¤tPage=12&numpages=10

lion tiger fight Monogrammist
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[size=24]{The 20th Century}


{2006}
Liberec (Czech pronunciation: [?l?b?r?ts] ( listen); German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Je‰tûd-Kozákov Ridge, it is the fifth-largest city in the Czech Republic.
lion kill’s siberian white tigress in leberic czech zoo. There was only one bite mark on Isabella’s throat an no other wound’s concluding even though 2 lion’s occupied the same encloser with isbella the tiger, only one lion attacked isabella.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm

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-
-
So thats more than 700 years worth of lions having a consistantcy of beating tigers, sure there are a few here and there every so hundred years worth of historical documents of a tiger winning too, but it is rare...because for a tiger to have won, would more so tribute to questioning the status of the lion, as shown majority of the accounts that are on hand of tigers winning are of male tigers killing female lions that is toppled with over 20 experts who stand by the that social attribute via= experinced it, an even more so rare for a fit prime "male" lion to lose, which still it is possible for the tiger to win, but histroy is showing us that the lion is the usual one to start and finish a fight with a tiger more than vice versa. That alone disputes the opinion an fabrication that british have idlelized the lion falsely because some idiot uses flaued alibies, bias with no substance type sources, refferences that are only in our era trying to dispute something of ancient times with no creditable knowledge of there own of what they are talking about... we have modern documentations that are exactly, an I mean excatly the same as every-single document I have just shown, as I said before... what would change? Lions and tigers dident aquire some new set of evolutionary skills an attributes grand of any notice that wasent recorded, they are akin to there recent ancestors so they are the same, the consistancy speaks for it self, in other words.. if a lion defeated a tiger in a fight fair fight consistanty, then most likely thats how it will always stay, not a garentee because more information and occaisions are out there, but so far it looks kinda one sided in terms creditable sources of opinions to accounts. :whistle:

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2013 at 12:31
I think ancient Persians considered the tiger as a more dangerous animal than the lion, in fact the tiger was considred as a symbol of fear and the lion was the symbol of power.
 
It is interesting to know that the ancient Persians called the tiger "martikhora" which means man-eater, Greek "martikhoras" and English "manticore" have the same origin, but the word "tiger" has also a Persian origin, it comes from Persian "tigra" which means sharp and roaring.
 
But the Persians themselves use the word "babr" for tiger, some say it comes from proto-IE "bhebhrus" which means "bright and brown" but as an animal we see this word is used for "beaver" in some other Indo-European languages, like Russian "Bobr" and German "Biber". Some other ones say "babr" has a Semitic origin which originally meant "wolf", like the same word in Arabic and Akkadian "barbaru".


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Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2013 at 16:58
Hey thats very cool to know, yeah I always was told Tiger in Greek an persian was from the word "Tigris" witch ment "Arrow" but the romans had also given Tigris after the river named tigris which translated an ment fast and dangerous. But There could be many different meanings to the same culture an nationality, but its cool that you know other forms of tiger an lion history espeacially in another languages, english dosent have all that much recorded from other languages an other races....its like typeing in google....

"lion vs tiger rome"

you can find only less than medicore data from opinions to the average person guessing what happned in rome, but if you type in Leones venatio Tigre/tigris, a whole lot of information will pop up of anceint origins, so its better to have its native language dialects instead. That goes the same to all the different nationalitys. As for lion and tiger in Persain, I dont know all that much but would like to learn, if you can tell me how to say these main things in Persian or Iranian I think I can manage finding a few more things, translated words like...

~Artifact
~Painting
~Lion
~Tiger
~Fight
~wild

Then I'm sure in persian or Iranian search courses will pick it up through google, because if I type in lion fights tiger "germany" nothing of german origin ever came up, but as soon as I typed in lowen Kampf tiger, then easly google routed me to mnay artifacts...so again english dosent hold all that much information, but what I have accumilated is okay, its just that there must be tons more floating around out there thats awesomely intresting.

I really dont have a favorite between them, I like both equally, I'm just finding what most have recorded an archiveing it.

But if anything thanks for the feed back, an hope to hear more info from you.

^_^

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2013 at 18:29
I figure I post one more and transfer some data so that people can get a better Idea of there Status and Statistics in terms weight and size comparisons here...


I found out that most of all the real heavy weight tigers that linger in the 600-800 pound ranges in the wild have been only Estimates, an non-verified...the common trend that is used by ignorant scientist who copy a faulty statement without out doing the actual study them selves. Alot of scientist, or zoologist (of today) like credability in its verifications so you'd hardly ever hear a well known "fields-men tiger zoologist" quote things off of like wikipedia's claims, of 847 pounds of tigers in the wild, when they them selves quoted an stated no wild tiger should have ever weighed pass 650 pounds without exception to the eco-systems sustainability, or in lucrative terms, the 800 pound wild tiger could just have been some type of freak monster sized tiger one of the raritys of the world which still its credability is lower than low it self, for owners to zoologist who have witnessd and analyzed the photo all have stated that the claim dosent even fit near the evidence, it shows more of a 500 pound tiger when compared photolistically or in other words compared with other tigers in realitive same distance with a hunter via distance effect, because the documented weights have a pretty well established consistancy via Stud book of records, to well known establishment who many agreed and show they both... siberian and bengal as a "whole Sub-speices" both cant even lay the claim of being just 500 pounds as there sub-peices "whole" average....

Tiger weight’s show they avearge no bigger than lion’s
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.
www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-152-01-0001.pdf

Taking what was the heviest weights of all Tiger Sub-speices in these records would be…
258
195
175
240
306
140
141
100
1555 Kg

Divided by 8 equals to…
194= 429 pounds


Taking what was the low end of each sub speices in this same records would be…
180
150
130
170
180
100
100
 90
1100 kg
Divided by 8=
137.5=302 pounds


2.

On average the lion is the biggest living cat…
Tigers of the World: The Science, Politics and Conservation of Panthera Tigris
http://books.google.com/books?id=XFIbjBEQolMC&pg=PA54&dq=indian+tiger+larger+than+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_qSRUKbXDua8igKLr4CYBw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBA

3.

The tiger is inferior in size to the lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=tRVJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA23&dq=ferocious++lion+tiger+fight+king&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ei81UZfPKov2qwGmhoHoDg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw

4.
The bengal tiger is thinner an lighter than the lion
The Illustrated Magazine of Art, Volumes 3-4
http://books.google.com/books?id=BRVaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA278&lpg=PA278&dq=china++lion+fights+fighting+kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=MN04rRtSHs&sig=Nz3XMnyzoBeXmXUUAFzpcZ9KLAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZQGUOiWEIHg2gWah9S6BQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK

5.
Table 1. Location, physical status, size and circumstances of deaths of Amur tiger males in the Russian Far East, 1970-1994.
Basically 40 year census showing tigers with none passing 200 kg
http://www.tigers.ru/articles/tab_eng.html#tab1

6.
In size the lion is similar to the tiger
The London Magazine, Volume 19
By John Scott, John Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe4RAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA123&dq=1+lion+the+tiger+and+the+traveller&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cJOgUIiFH-32igKS94HAAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAzgo

7.
Hewett (1938), Inverarity (1888), Baker (1890), Buton (1933, 1948), Hornaday (1885), Meinertzhagen (1939) and Sanderson (1912) shows an average 422 lbs for bengal tigers,


8.

Dumbar brander weighed 45 very large tigers with its average being 420 pounds.
Bert klineburger 1990


9.
Igor nikolaev weighed stated no tiger ever exceeds 650 pounds in the wild, an weighed 15  tigresses exploiting a 450 pound estimation because not one tigres exceeded 320 pounds, also stating these are the difference between real weights and hunters estimates


An for the most creditable stand points of both lion and tiger weights that are confirmed in the wild, by people with substance on the matter show that 650 pounds for the the tiger is logical to be the most confirmed heviest tiger…in suspect to the 306 Kg tiger could as well be the exception, for little confrimation is veryfied via crediability”…while the wild lion who weighed in at 690 pounds=313 Kg had been stated he was weighed more than multiple times for credability, which is irrefutable.

10.
Histoire naturelle des mammifères ...
By Paul Gervais
Tiger Felis (Felis Tigris, Linnaeus). The real Tiger or Royal Tiger, should not be confused with sprinkled species of the same tribe, such as the Panther, the Once, etc.., Is an Animal exclusively Asian living in the islands of Java and Sumatra, throughout mainland India, the Chinese empire and to Siberia. Some copies come to the borders of Europe, and Mr. Nodmann reports that Tiger 1835 a large size was killed from Tiflis.
The Tiger is almost as large as the Lion, but he has the most elegant dress.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=lion+tigre+tue+lutte&sig=nw3ALChwJt2Jzjw0fgYMSUtgq7k&ei=PeJrUKnSIoGkigLGvYHoCg&id=R-ZAAAAAcAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&ots=sGh2DHpF3s&output=html_text


11.
The average male Bengal  tiger weighs about 200 kg 227 would be considered one of the heviest.
~By trilok chandra majupuria


12.
Bengal tigers average 160-230-290 kg=193.3 kg=425 pounds



13.
Average sized male siberian tiger is 197 Kg=433.4 pounds


14.
Dale miquelle  Program director wcs russia, average weights of there siberian tigers 430 pounds.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg
[/img]http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/craigkennion/dsfdfsdsfdsfdfsd.jpg[/img]

15.
Mel sunquist largest tiger hes ever captured was 600 pounds, an states most weights are suspected to please the king or royal guest
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww131/schamah/SiberianCloseto400.jpg">
http://english.savechinastigers.org/node/31


You see what this guy said^^^ weight’s are usually over-exaggerated

16.
THE WAY OF THE TIGER 2002 By K. Ullas Karanth.
Page 47, The tigers weighing record weights in captivity were over-fed obese individuals who would not survive in the wild.

small town measerments...
540 pounds is the record weight for an african lion his bones is solid and heavy as ivory, the tiger runs the lion very close. A bengal tiger killed 2 years ago by a english officer scaled 520 pounds.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/imageserver/imageserver.pl?oid=TH19000922.2.44&area=3&width=381&color=32&ext=gif&key=

So you see, it is well documented that lions and tigers are similar in size, so similar that sometimes the tiger (Bengal or Siberian) is bigger sometimes the lion (Asiatic or African) is bigger, an thats not even including the whole accumilation of weight figures yet... I'm sure combine-ing every statistical number out there bengal or siberian tigers wont even amount up to averageing just 400 pounds as a whole sub-speices, because as most state they are the high end range of what they weigh an rarley present the whole accumilation or amount of every tiger for substance and credability of accruate figures.

The only person I have seen with substantial amount of data on weights comparing african lions with Bengal and Siberian tigers (The Boldchamp /yuku member) said that siberian tigers on average are only 5-8% hevier than african lions. That is still beyound any notice of anything, because lions still vary in that same conjunqtion, where as you can find a 600 pound lion just as easy as a 600 pound tiger, for there was a 690 pound lion weighed in the wild, an has by far more credability than any 800 pound tiger because it as plain as day stated theyweighed this lion multiple times, unilke the tiger storys which stemed from lame hunters who had always a consistancy of providing inacurate information in porportions to fictional figures such as a 18 foot long tiger which is Impossible, in lamin terms...what ever the weight the tiger has reached so can the lion. Little is offered on verifications so both cant really be taken too seriously on anything passing the 700-1,000 pound ranges, I'm sure the rare cases (in captivity) weigh as much as the presenter claims most certainly look it, but in comparions, tigers dont have any formality or implimations of having a higher margin or a significant amount to make it 100% accurate that tigers (Bengal or Siberian) weigh heavy'er than lions (Asiatic or African).

Now heres the kicker....if siberian and bengal tigers did weigh a substantial an significant amount "over lions", (shouldent all the old photos show a much much larger tiger almost every time???) Eluding and parrying away from the numbers of weights for a moment, (which we now know Bengals/Siberian's Africans are all similar in weight) but by going by what every tiger fanatic boust out, that tigers are larger than lions, tigers are bigger than lions, tigers are hevier than lions, tigers dwarf lions, african lions look small to siberian tigers...and all that jazz. Than it should be relatively easy to present that evidence right? I have examined quite a few amounts of tiger and lion photos where they are in the same shot, an by significant amounts, it shows exactly the oposite of what those same fanatics have been whine-ing about, now I have seen a hefty amount so far an I'm not even 1/1000th the amount there is out there, but it seems that through out history (no cherry picking involved) lions of both genders, seem to be on equal statuses with the biggest of the sub-speices of tigers (Bengal/Siberians) an not only that...but 'Male lions' via [a full mane] in terms mass an size show that it is nearly an almost impossible to say that visualy any tiger is larger than a full grown male lion with a full body of mane, so how can they be so accurate with weight figures when some already state that the lion can not only rival tigers but be larger on average??? Where is the iron clad data that shows these numbers.

There isint any, its just bias talk, ignorant studys, lack of data, cherry picking.

An look what I got so far, this is just a small amount of circuses, animal sanqtuarys, zoo's ect ect... that ever exsisted, that shows a lion and tiger in the same shot an exploits an exposes that not tigers, but lions... (specifically male lions)... looks, mass, size, ect... are the biggest and largest of the big cats visually.


[size=24]Busting the myth

Exploiting the notion that tigers have any size differentials and looks bigger, visually larger, and have more mass than lions.

Its quite the oposite, female lions are the same sizes as tigresses, an male lions (via= there manes) always makes them look bigger than any subspeices of tigers. I will work on getting more, but for now I'll sum up the formality of comparing tigers and lions in terms sizes.

Lions have manes, which can increase there mass from 10-35%, so a lion without a mane will be placed at 4/4ths the size comparions to a tiger of equal weight, a lion "with a mane", will have 6/4ths mass over a maneless lion, so even if you were to add on 100 pounds to a tiger at 500 pounds, it will only increase his mass around 5-10% while just adding a mane to a maneless lion, the lions mass, will increase 10-35% so in terms you will actually need the tiger to be 600 pounds to look larger than a 500 pound lion with a full mane, an going down or up the ladder it will be in the same conjunqtion, if its a 400 pound lion (via full mane) you will need atleast a 10-30% weight advantage to cater to his mass to make the tiger look as big as a lion (with a mane)....so even a 600 pound lion will look bigger than a 700 pound tiger, a 700 pound lion will look bigger than a 800 pound tiger an so on... the mane effects his mass without needing so much weight so in general a lion will always look bigger reguardless of minor weight fluctuational impliments.

So lets see, exactly where in the hell did tigers ever get the gesture that they are bigger than lions, when not only on average do lions (in general) weigh the same weights to the biggest of sub-species Bengal and Siberians, histroy shows us that "male lions", are by far visually the biggest and largest of the big cats...


Sedona out of africa wild life park.
{2013}
Female lion just as large as a male white tiger…

http://www.sarahrosemary.com/2012/07/10/sedona-trip-out-of-africa-wildlife-park/



Tom Dieck Junior

{2012}
Lions look to be same length and mass even slightly larger…



Ringling bros. & Barnum and Baileys. Circus.

{2012}
The female lions looks to be the same size as all the tiger/tigresses in the photo, even though the lion is on a higher platform, his (Mass)-- his size, is larger than every single tiger.



http://www.lilesnet.com/circus/circus2012/index.htm


The same here lions look larger 2010…


http://southerngirlramblings.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Trainer-Kissing-Tiger.jpg

and same here


Von senioren Theater williams

{2012}
In the back ground it is evident that the lion and the tiger are on the same level’d platform, an it shows the male lion is almost 2 times the mass of the white tiger an almost a foot taller.
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/image/view/2012/11/13/21112386,16954381,lowRes,loewe.JPG.jpg
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/lichtenberg-hohenschoenhausen/tipps--veranstaltungen-rund-um-weihnachten,21100498,21111714.html



John reinkie Gw exotic animal park in wynne wood oklahoma

{2011}
Tony the tigers head compared to his body shows he is very obese, and still bone-digger the lion’s mass and size looks slightly larger…

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01939/lion-man-legs_1939168i.jpg




Frederick Edelstein

{2011}
His tiger looks way smaller than the male lions, an the tiger is even in the front, these two lions have probably one of the thickest manes so far, not only is the male lions mane in the middle, makes him look 2x bigger than the tiger but his size and mass via=+mane… makes him look bigger than the liger to the right..

http://circusarchiv2005.circusworld.de/Pinder/P2/P3/P4/P5/Frederic2.JPG

The platforms are on equal heights, yet still the lion seems taller and larger…
http://universducirque.free.fr/actualite/2012-03/im143-pinder02.jpg

Lion on far left looks to be way taller than the tiger in the back of it an almost 2x bigger and they are on equal grounds …
http://www.chapiteau.de/xmas/0809/pinder/raubtiere.jpg


Shrine Circus

{2010}
Female lion same size as tiger, while male lion dwarfs tiger in mass…

http://www.mybaycity.com/scripts/p3_v2/P3V3-0200.cfm?P3_newspaperID=NewspaperID&P3_ArticleID=4592

Monte carlos circus in beirut

{2010}
The lion and the tiger in the back ground looks to be the same distance away from the camera an you can see that the lions mass is a little bigger than the tigers…

http://thechronicleherald.ca/hcw/103435-trained-animal-acts-should-make-us-all-wild


Circque Balkanski

{2010}
Looks like the male lion skull is a bit larger in size an overall bigger in mass, due to his mane…


Harbin, northeastern China’s Heilongjiang

{2010}
Although slightly in the front of the tigress this lions mass still dwarfs the biggest of the breed the siberian tigers.

http://thewondrous.com/33-oddest-animal-couples/

Qingdao wild life zoo

{2010}
Some what hard to tell in persice accuratecy, these tigers still don’t look any speacial than any other tiger, there comparison looks to be slightly smaller than the lions.

http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/travel-msg-1001.html  

Noahs Arch. Animal sanqtuary

{2009}
Even without the mane, they look similar in size an mass, so the mane will only attribute the lion in “almost always” making the lion look bigger...

(The grass might be blocking the leverage of the ground)
But heres one on equaled level ground, showing even without the mane lions seem slightly taller, busting the myth that lions are small without there manes
http://images.mnn.com/sites/default/files/noahsark.jpg


Moving zoo in Sosnovoborsk

{2009}
This lion looks to be the same mass as a very large siberian tiger even though the camera is taken more to the right side…

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/scenes_from_the_zoo.html


Guangxi Nanning Zoo

{2009}
These young male lions (small manes) look to be just as tall an large as some adult siberian tigers…

http://www.yun158.com/Image/20100617091431428
http://www.yun158.com/2009/01/tiger-lion-visitors-compliant-bow-to-new-year-chinese-new-year/

Pinder circus
{2008}
This male lion (including his mane) looks like a bear to this bengal tiger, dwarfing the tiger in mass…


Same platform, lion almost taller than the entire car…
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3L3gy1rVCFP4e-AjmOD0-Va5yFuPKsNrdXIwsqXhhCa8R-C17XAmCK2w

while tigers height is only a fraction above the rear view mirror
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoTtfDjzG3k8gtdIIryufC6rmIs4jWTPkZ7PGuIHJox91NzTdTUla21TlP

same shot lion is taller, and has a bigger mass, looks almost 2x bigger…
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSIbSbOZs97K9dlXrQQmRCeI4zK0W_RYC5tVJ0kCx3OWpU1SitJN1U17E



Nerger's Lion & Tiger Act
{2008}
although a bit far away the size of the male lion in the middle looks to be the most biggest figure out of all the cats.
http://www.mackayentertainment.com/images/animals/Nerger3.jpg  
http://www.mackayentertainment.com/animals.html


Circus charles Knie Alexander Lacey

{2008}
The female lions looks even larger than the tigers and the male lion looks to be the biggest figure out of all the cats even though he is not standing…


The female lion looks larger than the tigress while on par with the male on the right, even in the back ground the young male lion looks to already be taller an slightly bigger than that tiger
http://www.danzfamily.com/archives/blogphotos/12/617-ringling-bros-lions-tigers.jpg  

No doubt here that the lion is the bigger cat.
http://www.stimme.de/storage/pic/alfa/hlalg/763326_1_144174792_7002.jpg?version=1215193108&fCMS=u02fhi3g3g8mdg4rj9q5626uj0
http://www.schwarzwaelder-bote.de/inhalt.tiere-in-der-manege-gnadenbrot-fuer-zirkustiger.213d2179-aeb1-4579-9ba0-52f1ad1f87ce.html

The tigers feet isint even on the ground yet the lions head is still at the same level, if he’f be on the ground no doubt the lion would have been almost a foot taller, an his mass looks just about 2x bigger
http://www.flensburg-online.de/blog/2008-04/lowe-und-tiger-im-zirkus-knie.html

Henderson nevada animal reserve

{2005}
Even though farther away from the camera, the male lions mass looks to be a lot larger than these two tigers…

http://www.rexano.org/WAO.htm

The Jorndon world cricus

{2002}
Even with the camera angle catering the tigers size, the male lion still looks undoubtably larger than the tigers…

http://www.thejordanworldcircus.com/acts/close-encounters.php


Dave Hoover

{1970}
Reguardless of the distance effect the lions mass looks enourmously bigger than his tigers...

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/768/20631022337b7c49fcbb.jpg

Beatty cole bros. Circus

{1965}
Looks like all the lions are at greater masses even though the distance effect caters to the tigers...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2221/1745758216_3698d3f9b5.jpg
http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2007/10/clyde-beatty-cole-bros-1965-4.html

Dick Mcgraw

{1961}
Even with a small sized mane, these lions look larger than the tigers…


Evelyen currie animal act[/ u]

{1960}
This act shows a lion with no mane to being almost the exact same size, showing again that tigers and lions are similar in size…

http://www.sideshowworld.com/13-TGOD/2009/tgod-The-Lady.html

Alex Kerr[/ u]

{1957}
Looks to be his lion is taller an larger than his tiger which both are at the same size platform…


Alfred courts mixed animal act[/ u]

{1947}
Looks to be alfreds lions are the same size as his tigers, with some lions looking slightly bigger than the tigers…

http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/herman-weedon-mixe-group-1024x744.jpg


Terell Jacobs mixed animal act.

{1940}
All his lions with no manes looks the same size as his tigers while his male lions with manes, mass an size looks almost 2x bigger…

http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=21516

again here all Terells lions lions look to be equal or of greater size than his tigers and mass…



Clyde beatty

{1935}
Clydes lions looks to be equal in size an some to be even larger than his tigers…

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dkHse9X6RZs/R3Y8zRL2WKI/AAAAAAAAD5E/q5uNAs3Ersw/s1600/CLYDE.jpg
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr162/marjwh/ClydeBeattyFleetondoor.jpg

Rudolf kludsky

{1925}
All of his lions looks to be equal in size an some to be even larger than his tigers…


Ringling bros. Circus.

{1908}
Young male lion taller than tiger, size an mass almost the same with the lion slightly bigger.


http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=38034


Herman weedon

{1904}
Female lions bigger than tiger…



Carl hagenbecks zoo.

{1903}
Here the lion is taller an larger than tiger…
http://books.google.com/books?id=V0JSVvpZvYYC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA187&dq=Isaac+A.+Van+Amburgh+lion+tiger++fight&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Again here different lions and tigers showing young lions are larger than his tigers



London hippo drone[/ u]

{1901}
Lions look to have bigger heads an overall larger mass because of his mane…



Richard swadae[/ u]

{1900}

http://www.emunch.no:8080/cocoon/emunch/ENGART_emunch_guleng_eng.xhtml

Where the hell are all these monstrous tigers I keep hearing about? Huh! Thats a transeding leap of 10 decades worth of lions and tigers in over 25 different zoo's, sanqtuarys and circuses, an not one showed a tiger significantly bigger than a male lion, in fact most of the male lions dwarfed those tigers just about 2x fold, and none had a superb battle mane like the Barbary lion, at best the biggest looked on par with a persian lions mane, which is still inferior in size to the Barbary's mane, an whats funny is the biggest tigers who are captive raised an should have been bigger by higher food intake then there wild counter parts, should have still given them a bigger visual status being a little longer than a lion, yet still all the lions look by far much larger than any tiger...and we are only getting started. What is the pinicle of this debate, can now even be gestured that a male lion with a full body of mane from head to belly can look larger than even a liger who is on average 200-400 pounds hevier than both lion and tiger an can reach up to 1,600 pounds, an with visual proof (as shown) a full battle maned lion can look bigger than a liger so tigers arnt even on the same scale anymore in mass comparisons.



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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 02:28
Siberian tiger is bigger and stronger than any other tiger or lion. He dominates everything else, even bears!

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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 05:02
Originally posted by TITAN_

Siberian tiger is bigger and stronger than any other tiger or lion. He dominates everything else, even bears!


I disagree, certainly the data shows that Siberian tigers weigh on average the same weights as african lions (which I just provided), you cant just purposely find a needle in a hay stack and claim thats the standard, in other words you cant make a claim that chinese men are taller than russians by comparing Yao ming to the average russian, and then say chinese on average are taller than russians...no. The fact is the average Russian is taller than the average China man.

The same way siberian tiger data shows to be uncovering to be, getting smaller and smaller as the credability is getting higher and higher, while lions could just as well turn the tables and change what was popular belife, people accustomed to repeating information that has rooted to emit faulty substance and credability without doing there own assesment. You do know we have scales now days that are alot more accurate than olden day testimonials right? I just provided most people who actually are in the field of such studys claim the old records are un-reliable since modern day weighing scales are showing completely different numbers to what so call hunters have given, and they lean more so on estimates, which in no way can be credaitable no matter how many tigers and lions you seen in the flesh.

As for the heavy end, its one of the easyest things to fore-see now, if you look at why Siberian tigers can get "slightly hevier" around only 5% hevier than african lions (Only in the wild), "Food consumption". Being most scientist and zoologist have stated they are almost Anatomically the same cat, when they do autopsy's and strip the flesh from lions and tigers, by a simple glance most top experts cant tell a lion from a tiger...but as for food consumption, the lion consumes less because he is the only social cat in the wild, period.

Its simple math really, if a tiger kills a 1,000 pound buffalo he will then be able to consume more of that buffalo than a lion killing a 1,000 pound buffalo, because the tiger is solitary, so he will digest atleast 80% 8/10ths if he pro-longs the buffalo for a week or longer, while a lion being in a pride, will have to split the bufalo on average of 10-20 other lions, so he will only digest 2/10ths of the buffalo on average before the whole pride consumes it in less than a day or two.

Less consumption would mean less weight amoungs occaision's, thats why lion weights are amoung the most randomest scales to calculate or determine. While that pattern can actually be broken...via captive lions. In captivity zoo's, circses and sanqtuarys feed lions a meal consistant of a solitary animal, being... having a consistant diet, which shows that lions can actually reach what ever weights the siberian tiger can...


454.5 kg=1,000 pound african lion
http://www.semissourian.com/story/131162.html - http://www.semissourian.com/story/131162.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CJ8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3389,5622568&dq=1000+pound+african+lion&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CJ8fAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EdYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3389,5622568&dq=1000+pound+african+lion&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2C000+pound+african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=1%2C000+pound+african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

408kg=900 pound lion named Ali owned by Charle’s mason of king’sbridge
http://www.impeyan.net/default.asp?iId=KMFIH - http://www.impeyan.net/default.asp?iId=KMFIH

Two…950-1,000 pound lions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmUtjFBx6eM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmUtjFBx6eM

- 900 pound lion
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19630112&id=l9YeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=n2UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4456,2398849 - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1755&dat=19630112&id=l9YeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=n2UEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4456,2398849

800 pound lion named ponto fight’s off 2 tiger’s 1959 Rningling brothers
-

826 pound lion named simba
[url - http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af291/KingOfEurope/45yedsdy.jpgt=1306200659

http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2011/111102/changeofpace.html[/URL]

810 pound lion attack’s tarzan 1967, in Cleveland, OH; Tarzan was attacked in the ring by an 800-pound lion.
Zerbini and his 800 pound lions:

http://www.tzproductions.com/index.php/history - http://www.tzproductions.com/index.php/history

2… 800 pound lion’s 1 named Prince an 1 named clarence

http://mfinley.com/tumor/bt-bwana-mike.htm - http://mfinley.com/tumor/bt-bwana-mike.htm

806 pound lion named Rutledge

http://adambarefoot.deviantart.com/art/Rutledge-World-s-Largest-Lion-148826480 - http://adambarefoot.deviantart.com/art/Rutledge-World-s-Largest-Lion-148826480

908 pound lion owned by Peter jackson
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg139/scaled.php?server=139&filename=900lblionestimatedoz7.jpg&res=landing - http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg139/scaled.php?server=139&filename=900lblionestimatedoz7.jpg&res=landing

800 pound lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=r_itw5QtTkUC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=800+pound+lion+africa&source=bl&ots=L7PO7yWlAS&sig=Da81WuQXgd9ZRE6mRQtvA6qaGy8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNonUNOJGuKC2wWUuYC4AQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=r_itw5QtTkUC&pg=PA159&lpg=PA159&dq=800+pound+lion+africa&source=bl&ots=L7PO7yWlAS&sig=Da81WuQXgd9ZRE6mRQtvA6qaGy8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNoNUNOJGuKC2wWUuYC4AQ&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA

800 pound lion in circus
Trump: The Art Of The Deal
But Irving was very much like a lion tamer. You've seen these guys, maybe I50 pounds, who walk blithely into a cage where there's a magnificent 800~pound lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ye6e_VxM00kC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=800+pound++lion&source=bl&ots=6XuRpqILHh&sig=FPFItABXapR4OZWM76XTRCImwz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mHwGUICmL-Pg2gWQxMXTBQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=Ye6e_VxM00kC&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=800+pound++lion&source=bl&ots=6XuRpqILHh&sig=FPFItABXapR4OZWM76XTRCImwz0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mHwGUICmL-Pg2gWQxMXTBQ&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ

800 pound lion named woody

http://books.google.com/books?id=9MIDKlXj60AC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=800+pound++lion&source=bl&ots=6qj9mAg4nV&sig=oYDzO5qhhaADM55op3qdUPe0FLc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VX0GUJC2Leqi2gXO4MmPBQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwADgK

CBS News investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian speaks about the debate and what it was like doing an interview within feet of a 900-pound lion.

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x364597531/Morning-Jolt-Haunted-home-for-seniors - http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/news/x364597531/Morning-Jolt-Haunted-home-for-seniors

800+ pound lion
http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/wildkingdom/last-lions-india/asiatic-vs-african/asiatic-vs-african.html - http://animal.discovery.com/fansites/wildkingdom/last-lions-india/asiatic-vs-african/asiatic-vs-african.html

800 pound lion named leo 1932

- http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=apghAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SZoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1205,5537289&dq=800+pound+lion&hl=en - http://cbsboston.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/lionunleashedinwbzstudio.jpg?w=300
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=apghAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SZoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1205,5537289&dq=800+pound+lion&hl=en

800 pound lion Killed With One Shot .Nero Slain As It Devoured Cow In...
Daily Star - Oct 2, 1908
Nero was five years old, weighed 800 pounds and was valued at 1000 He recently . was imported from Africa, and was considered a perfect specimen.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MMVUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uI8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6318,5099819&dq=african+800+pound+lions&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MMVUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uI8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6318,5099819&dq=african+800+pound+lions&hl=en

Two 800-900 pound lions escaped from the Ringling Bros. and Bar- num & Bailey Circus Saturday los Angeles Times - Jun 17, 1973
Logan and his 800 and 900 pound fighting lions:


http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/692669012.html?dids=692669012:692669012&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jun+17%2C+1973&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=1+of+2+Circus+Lions+Killed+After+Escape&pqatl=google - http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/692669012.html?dids=692669012:692669012&FMT=CITE&FMTS=CITE:AI&type=historic&date=Jun+17%2C+1973&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=1+of+2+Circus+Lions+Killed+After+Escape&pqatl=google

And I mind you the word bigger is a loose term, (as you claimed) now with a little more light on the capacitys of lions weights shown above being fed like a tiger (Only for him self type diets), I think that there actually is no weight advantage what so ever. If a tiger had to split his food omni-directional with 10-20 other tigers (like the lion has too) I'm quite sure he wont sustain such weights and as for the word bigger, again bigger and larger are loose terms, I just provided the weights that show lions can rival siberain tigers but as for implimenting the word bigger and larger, the tiger can lay no claim what so ever in terms Mass, from average weights to maximum weights the lion will always visually look "larger" than a siberian tiger.

Besides, any big cat including african lions and siberian tigers, passing 700 pounds is a rarity and not the normal occurance, and wouldent fit there physiology capacity to perform at there peak, unless you'd think a 1,000 pound human can beat up a 300 pound fit prime human because he has a 700 pound weight advantage. lol
No, Idealy both are at best at around 500-650 that would be the most extreme best of the best evolution an natural selection of the toughest of the giants lions or tigers can produce, since both have reached 700 pounds in the wild, I'd say 650 would be in a conjunqtion of a fair assesment/match-up if you wanna bring in the heavy hitters. So theres really no weight advantage for tigers, if you purposely want to bring in a 800 and up tigers, then why not a 800 pound lion as well? Certainly lions can get larger than that, but I'd still favor a 650 pound lion vs a obese non-mobile 1,000 pound lion the same with tigers...a 650 pound maniac supreme tiger should make short work of his sumo counter part, with more game in all of its meaning.

And as for stronger, I'm inclined to say lions are the stronger of the two where it counts, the frontal strikeing points, the frontal area, not the back jumping attributes, this isint a pulling match or a running match... its more of a swatting match, grappling, and strikeing match where the lion is stronger and more adpated to pro-long and be superior in.


Edit: Hey I can edit now? Awesome!



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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2013 at 20:28

Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.

I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.
Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.
 
It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 00:18
Originally posted by huntergill

Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.


I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.

Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.

 

It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?


(Thanks again Dragon, for taking my other jaka-laka post down/Hope this one comes out okay ^_^)


Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
Posted: Today at 20:28 By huntergill
Old and very interesting topic.Lion is a symbol of strength, courage and nobilty and adopted by strong and powerful.And it is always the strong and powerful who writes the  history.Most of the painting and text posted above is recorded and painted by the  british who ruled most of the world  and lion as their symbol.So it is meaning less to consider them as proof of Lions superiority over tiger from their face value.
I think the question that need to be adressed here  is about their adaptabillity to the natural habitat and interaction with each  other as species.What happens if theese two species meet in the wild, which one  will survive.And they have met .. in India.
Lion were there for time unknown and tiger was a late comer.At the begining of last century there were tigers every where in India.What happens to the Lions.
 
It is hard to believe that Lion has been hunted down heavily and exterminated in the process when tiger is much more handsomer animal as trophy.Did tiger kill the Lion in India?



Howdy,

Well everyone is entitled to there own opinion especially being able to critisize the lattar of which you favor, but to use the words meaning-less at the same time having little truth to your own opinion...you stated Majority of them were (Specifically) British...I have put together this archive my self and know for a fact...

1.)
Majority of them were not British (Empire), they consist of Germans from the Holy Roman Empire, French-men from France which the british never took over France so they are non-affiliated, also Italian, Latin, Greek, Roman, and Indian artist to poets are majority of what I presented are about...more over-weighing any British/United Kingdom-England poets and artist who as plain as day gave there reasons why they chose the lion over the tiger, its because the tiger was more reluctant to engage and meet the lion in open combat than vice versa...Its stated in countless of English books, and poets and scriptures of there past history, which I showed in detail, so I dont know how you could take it in any other way, from what it is. (No offence) But why is everything stated in the books of past from the 18th all the way down to the 12th century which has a consistancy of lions either defeating tigers or just the tigers had submited more often (not every time) but more constant then lions would?

Please explain to me in thourough detail why are they meaning-less, when we have modern documentaions of lions proving every centurys records to hold merits of being true. As You were reffereing to my catagorie draft of the "Continent of Europe"which some what showed all the poets mention-ing occaisions of not really the word "Dominating" but has proven in there choosing of words to be superior in combat, and its comparisons when reading there quotas can be photo or video identical with what was stated in the past records to having a consistantcy and replication of what seems to be the same thing in comparing then and now.
I will ask you in your own words to explain to me how the Poets of Englands writings dont match in clean details, just these occaisions here...


Lioness submits male tiger


Lioness submits male tiger


Lions have stronger strikes


Male lion beats up tiger and tiger runs away


Female lion beats up tiger and tiger submits


lion has alot of agression while tiger nervous an submissive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCASVaWqpBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkRwN-3CeMg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzizwdt5MLw


(I consider the old documents in comparisions to these ^^^ showing there is quite the accuratecy enough to call them reliable, the details as they say fit the bill, theres no way there can be that much detail and have the same consistancy in the videos to be as you said meaning-less)


Please... just out of curiosty, could I have your honest opinion why I shouldent take them into consideration when majority (of the hundreds) of poets, (Hundreds of) artifact/painting has the exact same thing portrayed in news-paper articles and most importantly "Videos", why would you immideatly dis-reguard substantial and creditable information with out having some counter weight or base that is in its same quality and quanity?

2.)
Not only European nationality's and cultures have the lion surpassing the tiger in ther past history, (As you are gesture-ing/only eEuropeans-British) they have them basically in every other culture that had "Both" lions and tigers, having the lion as the usual victor, the lion as the superior, and when I mean "Majority" I dont mean just a few accumilations worth that would swing sides... meaning a close quanity of half favors the lion and half favors the tiger, but actually a substantial amount of historical significance (On hand/Not hear say or rumors) but a abundentcy of all types of records that proves that the lion was the usual victor...


The continent of Asia

Chinese Dynastys an Empires

~(Indidegous to the Asian tiger, Afghanistan sent lions to Chinese emperors as gifts in order to get the right to trade with Silk Road merchants. *(205 B.C. to 220 A.D in China) and during the Tang Dynasty (716-907 A.D.)
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html - http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html

^ So in terms, lions were in china for about 2,000 years. An since they were only imported an not indigedous, most likely there conflicts were accidental in captivity or pitted for chinese royal emperors an such.

After importing lions, the chinese have incorperated lions in there legends an ranked his courage unserpassed. A Lion fighting a Nian who the Tiger couldent.
http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html - http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html

A modern account: Showing that the historical artifacts below, still holds up to its merits showing that it is not only artistical but factual….

{The 20th Century}


{2011 China}


Two teen lions killed a adult male Bengal tiger in an enclosure.

One of the worker’s were on break, an went down the road to a store taking the key’s to the gate an car they usually break up minor scruffle’s with, , when two… 1.5 year old boy cub’s chased around an harrased a adult male bengal tiger, until he colapsed from exaustion,
http://i.imgur.com/rUyZN.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/rUyZN.jpg
He tried despertaly to protect himself,…
http://i.imgur.com/8zr8Q.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/8zr8Q.jpg
but the two 1.5 year old brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moan’s in agony, after on looker’s shouted for the lion’s to stop shortly after one got a hold of his throat an took his life…
http://i.imgur.com/sApCb.jpg - http://i.imgur.com/sApCb.jpg
~.(Video)- Youtube-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk


{2008}

South Korea Jeonju zoo

A lion is kept in a cage at Jeonju Zoo, North Jeolla Province, Wednesday, after attacking and killing a tiger in the zoo. The body of the dead tiger was taken to a veterinary hospital in the zoo. / Yonhap

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36355.html - http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/12/117_36355.html

{2006 India and china}
To the Indians and chinese the lions are the King of the beast not tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=o5eTQnIUF88C&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=lion+tiger+greece+fight&source=bl&ots=ZDLb53pWWs&sig=wsLpq5pgJ_I0MRW0Uv7cMBqBA1k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnEXUN_UKsSKrAHT-IDoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA<br> - http://books.google.com/books?id=o5eTQnIUF88C&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=lion+tiger+greece+fight&source=bl&ots=ZDLb53pWWs&sig=wsLpq5pgJ_I0MRW0Uv7cMBqBA1k&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FnEXUN_UKsSKrAHT-IDoCw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA<br>

{2005}

The lion in ancient india strips the title of the tiger in art an mythology


http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA36&dq=the+lion+outstrips+the+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bVdaUfiiKsTviQLHp4DYDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA36&dq=the+lion+outstrips+the+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bVdaUfiiKsTviQLHp4DYDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{2004}

[China]

A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east Chinas Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes." *
~Peoples Daily Online

[/url]http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200407/20/eng20040720_150169.html[/url]

{2002 India}
Cultures and customs of india

By Carol Henderson Garcia, Carol E. Henderso
The lion is the King of the beast of Inidan culture…
http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA74&dq=India+asiatic+lion+king+of+the+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EYuPUNLiL4PUiwKUsYHoDw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA74&dq=India+asiatic+lion+king+of+the+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EYuPUNLiL4PUiwKUsYHoDw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg

{The 19th Century}

{1999 India}

Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress
One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

{1997 China}
My mother taught me the elephant will defeat the lion, the lion defeat the tiger . . . the cat defeat the mouse, the rat.
Atlanta Journal-Constitution - Jun 28, 1997
[/url]http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AT&p_theme=at&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EADA32AE924DB1B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM[/url]
6th colome down
[/url]http://www.google.com/search?q=china+lion+kills+tiger+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N[/url]


{1993 India}
Lions have ruled India for 2,000 years
The lion takes over…only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years.
~Forster and Further: The Tradition of Anglo-Indian Fiction
By Sujit Mukherjee
[/url]http://books.google.com/books?id=xYi3HztW19YC&pg=PA202&dq=tiger+kailash+sankhala+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ[/url]

{19©Japan}


{1978}
Kailash sankhala

Mentions a crazed prince that had a fight with a lion an tiger an the lion killed the tiger



{19©Japan}


{1949 and another published in 1951 India}
Indian press-
Zoo tiger surrcumbs presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday of Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z7cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3206,4386439&dq=zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z7cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3206,4386439&dq=zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion&hl=en
http://www.google.com/search?q=Zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


{19© Japan}
Made by: Mr. Watanabe

http://www.signature-antiquite.com/fighting-lion-tiger-meiji-bronze.htm - http://www.signature-antiquite.com/fighting-lion-tiger-meiji-bronze.htm

{1940}
Caviar and Cabbage Melvin B. Tolson .

Tolson was the professor, poet and writer portrayed by Denzel Washington in
The Great Debaters , which is based on a true story from 1935 America.

Who stated:

“Tigers kill, tigers die, even on the birthday of Christ the King. But lions, fighting in solidarity together, are the King of Beasts. In the end, the lion rules the jungle.
http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html - http://www.marcnorton.us/93588/102643.html

3 Asiatic lions vs 3 bengal tigers

All lions won each occaision 1 tiger died, lion # 2 mauled the big male tiger…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM

{19(C).Japan}


{1926}
Bhim Singh:
A romance of Mughal times
A lion is a more formidable foe than a tiger, who, after all, is a cowardly beast. Macmillan, 1926 - 194 pages
http://books.google.com/books?id=DNtiOF9nBwkC&q=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&dq=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wm-QULW-OsjdigKQnIHwBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgo - http://books.google.com/books?id=DNtiOF9nBwkC&q=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&dq=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wm-QULW-OsjdigKQnIHwBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgo

{1923 India}
Jam sahib in india has wittnessed 4 fights


having all lion defeat tiger’s published in 1923 in his book here…
Also in his summary, when he exploited keseri singh he point’s them out again here…


{19©Japan}


{19©India }


{The 18th Century}

{1896 India}
Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a adult male tiger

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25 - http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25

{1890 China}
Listen to its quota=
Delicately Carving of Chinese ivory box, depicting tigers and charging lions in very high relief, lid decorated with tiger finial, 1890 China.
[ur]http://www.coinsandantiquesgallery.com/items/1171860/item1171860store.html[/url]

Notice ^ how the cover shows the lion as the bigger Icon, also known in art as portraying the usual victor.
The artifact merits of being factual can be proven true simply by looking at there social paring still evident today…
Lioness submits an chases tiger out of her area…


{1886 India}

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA106&dq=two+lions+and+a+tiger+said+louis+holding+up+a+picture&ei=YSNaUfmTBaHJiwKel4CQCg&id=8YgAAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text - http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA106&dq=two+lions+and+a+tiger+said+louis+holding+up+a+picture&ei=YSNaUfmTBaHJiwKel4CQCg&id=8YgAAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

{1862 Japan}

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tongzhi-period-1862-1874-chinese-vase-287767094 - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tongzhi-period-1862-1874-chinese-vase-287767094

Lions and tigers stayed the same for almost 2,000 years, they dident aquire anything new in terms fighting assests, so analyzing the historical artifacts whos that it is consistant that lions have always been dominating tigers, with proof of videos even today shows the same thing…
Male lion calls out tiger and tiger constantly flees…




{1854 India}
The Anvár-i Suhailí
Lion kills several tigers..When the tiger was seized by the lions claw, Death
[/url]http://books.google.com/books?id=QBi2OLju39gC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=lion+tiger+fight+suited+region&source=bl&ots=gzgy8hlxIc&sig=V2CHvhgzn4klwtkTgh1S2TNkzkg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vzNIUJL_CpDtiQLn_YDIBg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAQ[/url]

{18©Japan}
*


{1851 India}
1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung”
A lion killed a tiger in the wild witnessed by local native’s of India an German Zoologist’s.
~(German new’s atricle)
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2388/Velar-Male-Lion-vs-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-valauble-rare-account- - http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/2388/Velar-Male-Lion-vs-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-valauble-rare-account-


{1834 India}
Diary of a literature lion defeat’s tiger.









{1833 India}
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text - http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA97&dq=lion+tiger+fights+arranged&ei=lZCPULy4FqnYigKLuoGoBQ&id=WSdEAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

{18©Japan}


{18©Japan}


{1825 India}
The lion not the tiger is the unbdisputed King of the forest
http://books.google.com/books?id=8icYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=lions+undisputed+fighter+tiger&source=bl&ots=Ay1UmC74cw&sig=TrqQL7rHRl7AXgskSoPbAmW9lHA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_5QxUOrNK8r2iwK2-ICwBQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{18©Japan}


{18©Japan}


Japan
Made By: Mr. Corrosion


Well cast as a battle between a lion and a tiger, the latter roaring in protest from the assault of the lion which towers above, its two front legs standing on the supine body of the tiger, each of the animals expertly rendered with great attention to realistic details, the underside with the artist's signature in cursive script (corrosion).
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15409/lot/4042/

{The 17th-18th Century}
Japan or china








{Inida}




{Japan}


{Japan}


{China}


{The 17th Century}



{The 16th Century}


{The 15th Century}

The lion is the King of the beast in india a name rarely given to the tiger


As for your question, to what seems more like a blant mockery of hinting the tiger ruled india or killed off the lion...I actually have a substantial amount of information..."well maybe the basics"...on the asiatic lions status in india if you'd like to read up on there locations to idlelize-ing the lion on a longer term and on a higher superior of the two. For I feel and suspect with that type of post you made you know little to absolutely nothing of the Asiatic lions nor the Bengal tigers past history of right here an now type if I'd to ask you something about there history, not just fast googling Wikipedia type sites that wouldent be accepted in any formal collage paper by any Proffesor at any level from schaller to extrodinaire.

But I am always intrested to hearing something new that I might not know of and in which I can learn new my self. So I would like to know your further analysis...of why you chose the tiger over the lion in terms fighting and defeating each other?

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 00:40
lol I pretty much just made the same mistakes, aw wells.

Say la Vi

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2013 at 20:54
A domesticated wild animal, may it be tiger ,lion is only a unnatural animal...and what ever is unnatural is untrustworthy. They live and die and act not of their choosing.Hence I will not comment on the postings that shows these animals in circuses, menageries or zoos.

China doesn't have lions and Japan neither one of these animals, so i will also ignore these  comparison,drawings ,sculptures and figurines from these contries  as a work of imaginative human mind having no knowledge of tiger and lion behavior towards each other in natural habitat.

Theese two animals are about the same size and strength and it is hard to say which animal will win in natural state . probably they will avoid each other.which species will survive in the long run fighting for their existence is also hard to say.

A tiger is a shy animal of thick deep jungle.It will not come out of its cage to fight in a pit in front of so many onlookers( if it is a wild animal) even if you prod it with sticks.To assume it is afraid of its adversary will not be a true statement. Problematic tigers caught from the wild makes poor displays in zoos as they will hide in their enclosure, never showing themselves during day hours.

Tiger was the least studied animal of the two, direct observation nearly impossible in the field. With the coming of modern technology and through telemetric studies the scientist are unfolding the secrets.Bengal tigers living in the snow in Bhutan... speaks volume of the adaptability of tiger.

Crazed prince sankhala referring to is Gaekwar of BARODA.All rajas and maharajas indulge in this sport of fighting animals in the pit.Heavy bets are placed on favorite animal and insiders of the Baroda court have talked about the heavy losses Gaekwar suffered by backing up wrong animal.Baroda had adopted Lion as a state insignia.He was partial to Lion.

jam sahib of nawanagar and his family was the caretaker of Gir at one point.

I don't know what to say about Kailash Sankhala.He has been to Africa multiple times and had studied wild life there before writing the book you give the reference about lion having an egde over tiger.He doesn't believe Lion and leopard to be a member of big five.He replaced them with giraffe and hippo.(page 80-81 same book)

Why i think tiger will be a fair contender if not better is their way of living.The lion is all play,members living together and benefiting from each other. Tiger is all bussiness.A wounded tiger is a dead tiger.Hence very efficient in his work.
Tiger prey on Gaur and Bubalus Arna regularly, adults and sub adults.Pair of tigers is known to kill bull tusker and prey on isolated cows.A tiger clears a 30 ft nullah in a single bound and jump up a 17 feet cemented wall with no foot holds.I have seen that wall.
 
Do you think that a Lion ,not pride is capable of this feat.How often you have heard a single lion preying on buffallo bulls and dispatching them single hand.Arna stand six to six and a half feet at shoulder with the body length of ten feet or more.Horn spans anywhere from nine to twelve feet.Gaur stand six feet tall and weighs 3000 lbs.   

Looking at the circus pictures ...why it is always the tiger  leaping from the ring of fire.Wink


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2013 at 04:16


House it going,

I'll just dive right into it and adress some of your opinions and stand points.


A domesticated wild animal, may it be tiger ,lion is only a unnatural animal...and what ever is unnatural is untrustworthy. They live and die and act not of their choosing.Hence I will not comment on the postings that shows these animals in circuses, menageries or zoos.
China doesn't have lions and Japan neither one of these animals, so i will also ignore these comparison,drawings ,sculptures and figurines from these contries as a work of imaginative human mind having no knowledge of tiger and lion behavior towards each other in natural habitat.


Please define un-natrual? A domesticated animal, will still be a animal...the only things that are different is they will lose there sense of Direction, and lose there instinct to judge upoun fear and survival, which both plays hand in hand for a wild lion or wild tiger, it will in no way or form, make them a different creature, change there physiiology, change there attributes/anatomy, change there over-all capabilitys of what they are...in some sense, they will be limited to what they can do only mentally.

For if you will not comment on zoo's circuses and sanqtuarys, doesnt hender any formality or factual impliment to me, a captive lion is still capable of fighting a wild tiger to an extent, (It already happened) a lion named george fought "2 wild tigers in fact"....an even gamed the male, in the Tower of london as I alrady showed. So that convinces me that captive animals can be just as game as a wild one, as I will gesture to an extent...I cant just close my eyes all of a sudden an not look at every creves, every out-come, every loop whole just to more pass a slightly more creditable opinion...remember, no matter what we, as me you or anyone opinionates will only be a opinion, it is up to us to examine the substance and credability of what we choose to say or present.

Its amazing how (not adressing you)...how people, most people actually can make claims that... oh this country said this animal always won, or they favor this animal, there books, there art, there storys all point the superiorty of this animal, ( and show nothing but one or two secoundary sites) but as soon as the counter-bater brings in the hard evidence absolutely nothing of the sort, nothing related or affiliated to the subject and topic it self can be taken into consideration???...as for your china and japan remark, I actually find it quite intresting in conjunqtion to your gesture...how is it that in the eras before the 18th century when there was no television, no internet, no vast amounts of news-paper archives, were these people you claimed never saw a lion, can diplect counter-reality in there sculptures, photo-realistic detail in there paintings and art, and go into detail in there past historical writings of exactly what we see in videos of today and be so akin, so replicated, so well a-like...basically the same and not only that, have a consistantcy of it...I would really like to know your point of view in dispute-ing...actually you cant dispute it, that would be impossible, I mean your opinion in how you came to say they were imaginative... as you said non-natrual habitat?


Theese two animals are about the same size and strength and it is hard to say which animal will win in natural state . probably they will avoid each other.which species will survive in the long run fighting for their existence is also hard to say.
A tiger is a shy animal of thick deep jungle.It will not come out of its cage to fight in a pit in front of so many onlookers( if it is a wild animal) even if you prod it with sticks.To assume it is afraid of its adversary will not be a true statement. Problematic tigers caught from the wild makes poor displays in zoos as they will hide in their enclosure, never showing themselves during day hours.


I agree that they are very similar in size, attribtes and temperment too, and it will be hard to tell who would come off the usual winner, almost like a black man vs a white man, theres no way in telling if theres a superior fighter in terms the whole race its self, sometimes a white man will win, sometimes a black man will win, its almost the same thing like a tiger vs a lion. But to simplify the notion of who would win in territorial bouts, I really cannot see how in any way on a logical term you can suggest its a toss up on natrual terms, which is your entire arguement so far right? By "natures standards", lions live in prides and are deem'd social animals, tigers solitary (lives indipdendently/Alone) even smaller animals in groups would force out a tiger from there territory, via wolves, hyena, wild dogs, simply because they can range from 10-30, as the lion can as well...so a natrual setting, I am afraid you have lost all your parrying away from the debate it self, because I already posted a few encounters in india, and most suggested it was a 2 on 1 or pride against the tiger, only vey few had caught glimpse of wild fights that revolved around 1 on 1's and 3 was of stalemates after a scruffle no greater than something like everland videos...both choosing to leave the battle having both submitting minorly wounded, and one where a lion killed a wild tiger in Velar....did you not read anything I posted, or did you just look at the photos of art, because you seem to be parrying away into wild encounters and I have gaven my side, can you do the same?

Here I'll High-light the occaision for you...

31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”)

A drama at the Ganges.

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.

http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false-

You can use Google translate if you want to check its authinticty or credability.


Tiger was the least studied animal of the two, direct observation nearly impossible in the field. With the coming of modern technology and through telemetric studies the scientist are unfolding the secrets.Bengal tigers living in the snow in Bhutan... speaks volume of the adaptability of tiger.
Crazed prince sankhala referring to is Gaekwar of BARODA.All rajas and maharajas indulge in this sport of fighting animals in the pit.Heavy bets are placed on favorite animal and insiders of the Baroda court have talked about the heavy losses Gaekwar suffered by backing up wrong animal.Baroda had adopted Lion as a state insignia.He was partial to Lion.
jam sahib of nawanagar and his family was the caretaker of Gir at one point.


As for the baroda's account ( for I have read its whole abstract), I am a big fan of that story, I enjoyed its detail that went into write-ing it as such as this one above about Velar but a pit fight not wild as you are promoting, I did enphinsize that there will never be a clear cut winner, both have felled the other, sometimes both perish in mainly pit-fights from what I have read, most emit either little detail or hints of sabotaging the occaision, so at this point since both have there shares of winning via pit fights, we will now have to find who won more, and that would mean we will have tally up the occaisions and anaylze its credability, re-guardless if it is sketchy, shady or dosent emit the whole truth, we must compare every account, unless it can be proven with quality and quainty of some counter debate of dispueting it entirely, which I only know a few of those have occured as well, most I have seen are pretty legit, and I only provide the ones that do have credability or substance.

And for Kailash, most modern day big cat experts/zoologist or just keepers dont count Pumas, Cheetahs, and leopards as a Big cat, of course not in general, but just the implimation of the Big cats are more revolving around tigers, lions and jaguars those who can achive 350 pounds of weight.

For Jam sahib, I would gesture it could be compared to Kersi singh's statement, where he arranged 3 duels himself and all tigers won, but he has in his book (a non-consistancy of the fight), he states on articles it was a fight and the lion got the worst of it, but then in his book/quoted he just mentions the tiger only layed one or 2 smacks and the lion retired, which then his quota dosent match a fight in general, a lion rushing a tiger, and that tiger hitting the lion just twice isint a fight in my opinion, it just showed what all the experts I already posted on the first page have been state-ing, that the lion is the ususal agressor and will often attack the tiger, while the tiger tries to avoid the fight while merely defending himself by throwing wind-mill lashes, to keep the lion away...it is undenial-able the amount of experts to owners to eye-witnesses to even videos who have stated that,( which I provided on the first page) and keep keep showing different ones that protains to each catagorie of what I gesture (which helps for credability)
Clyde states tigers often miss more than lions, and tigers tire faster..


Clyde even stating that tigers are afraid of lions...
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg - http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg

in which the counter side can lay only rare occaisions of the tiger doing the same to a lion, and it is even more rare for it to happen on a male lion as I stated on my previous post tigers target female lions more because the male lion looks (via mane) as if its a much larger tiger/lion/opponent. But back to Jam sahib...we dont really know what he ment by Jam saying the lions won all 4, it could be a fight like Kersi singhs, or the lions could have killed the tigers, for Kersi singh mentions the lions survived, Jam did not say, so I'll leave it at a 50/50 Survived/Died...because most likely the lion will keep pushing the fight if it is indeed serious...after all that is there armermada to fight.


Why i think tiger will be a fair contender if not better is their way of living. The lion is all play,members living together and benefiting from each other. Tiger is all bussiness.A wounded tiger is a dead tiger.Hence very efficient in his work.
Tiger prey on Gaur and Bubalus Arna regularly, adults and sub adults.Pair of tigers is known to kill bull tusker and prey on isolated cows.A tiger clears a 30 ft nullah in a single bound and jump up a 17 feet cemented wall with no foot holds.I have seen that wall.

Do you think that a Lion ,not pride is capable of this feat.How often you have heard a single lion preying on buffallo bulls and dispatching them single hand.Arna stand six to six and a half feet at shoulder with the body length of ten feet or more.Horn spans anywhere from nine to twelve feet.Gaur stand six feet tall and weighs 3000 lbs.   
Looking at the circus pictures ...why it is always the tiger leaping from the ring of fire.


I really dont know how you find means to approuch with non-related content, and I really dont know how to comment back in fashion of taking you serious or just trying to phantom what is your motive or comparisons are trying to impliment or in terms emit.

First of all...

1.) It would be rare for either lion or tiger to take down a full grown bull of any sub-species weather any in catagorie of large bovines such as Guar, Buffalo, Catte, Bull...those are actually a rarity...most die in concequence of the bull goring the tiger or lion if the bull is in its prime stages...in terms one on one with a massive bovine, they are usually taken by ambush, and or weak sick or old is the general rule. If comparing who is more succsesful at it, it will point to the tiger, for his habbitat allows for maximum ambush in volume and state...while a lion is more who would be more the likely to averagly kill a buffalo on equal terms no ambush then... it would be the lion whos more succsesful...the lion is more durable, just as fast in dexterity and more powerful of the two in terms strike-ing.

2. If you are trying to compare who has the better feats, I did post a variety of animals the lion has brought down on the last page, majority of them were single handedly, up to coalitions an such, but in the over all verdict, lions face much more dangerous animals in size and quanity and I must mention again most are suspect for a open challange, not ambush which would depend on the occaision. Other than bears, everything the lion faces is much larger, bears can surcummb to anything the lion faces as well for africa holds things 10-20x the size weight and mass of the worlds biggest of bears, for comparing (I)=Indian animals with (A) African ones them...


Tigers----Lions
Wolves < Hyenas - Hyenas much larger, in bigger clans, and more powerful of the two.

(I) Elephant <(A) Elephant - African elephants are much larger than Indian ones, in bigger herds, over-all more formidable than the indian sub-speices.

Buffalo < Guar - Guars are only slightly bigger and are in small groups, Buffalos are more agressive and are in large herds up to 100-1,000 at a time.

(I) Crocs < (A) Crocs - About the same, but rivers have crocs in India as mostly wide stretches, so they will hardly ever be in groups, while africa has very little water so they will be in larger quanitys when grouping up.

(I) Rhinos < (A) Rhinos - The same as elephants of africa much bigger and more agresive, than there indian counter parts... catering with much bigger herds.

(I) Hippos < (A) Hippos - The same as elephants and Rhinos of africa much bigger and more agresive, catering through much bigger herds that are compact in small water holes.

I can go on and on comparing what they kill, and mostly every animal in afrcia is more formidable than there cousins or sub-speices any where on the planet, it should be common sense not to compare them, because what would that prove? None fight like the lion and tiger ( other than leopards who are besides the point), both can bring down massive animals, if you are trying to say that tigers have more competetion than thats a under-statement which could lead to a good oh laugh...because everything the tiger has in his pre-fered habitat, the lion has too with much more larger versions of them, much more agressive patterens from living in herds. In other words, please dont talk about tigers killing wild guar and think that means anything at all, I'd back Bovines one on one with any tiger or lion in a straight up fight 9/10. (Specifically) Spansih fighting bulls...or bulls of that general peak. Spanish fighting bulls have Decimatedtigers and lions in the ring and they weigh less than guars, I would even back a Spanish bull or cattle of reigonal pickings of my choosing that would kill a guar any day of the month, yes...size plays a role, but experince, gameness, agression trumps size almost every-time, martial arts proves that, Bruce lee proved that, Chuck norris proved that, Mike tyson proved that, pit bulls proved that, size will mean nothing if all the attributes arnt alighned.

Which leads me to my next counter-bate to your gesture of lions just joke around and play around in prides....which the catagorie you proceeded to emit will fall under "Fighting Experince"...so lets cover that.

Who has more fighting experinces lions or tigers?

Lets go through the stages of there lives where both wild lions and wild tigers would gain fighting experince.

Stage #1 Cub years:

Lions and tigers spend there child hood play fighting an harnessing the nessesary skills they need in defending them selves. But tigers are usually like any other cat an live a life of solitude having only the female take care of the cubs, while the lion lives in prides, which consist of usualy 2 males and 8 females, an some prides can grow as large as 30 lions in a single pride. So while tiger cubs have 2-4 siblings to practice his fighting skills...


Lion cubs have not only brothers an sisters and half brothers an sisters, but along them they have cousins to practice more consistantly an more often...


Lion fighting experinces=1
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Like all other big cats except the lion, Male tigers live a life of solitude, an abondins the cubs to the female, so cubs rarely see’s the tigress who is off hunting to feed them, unlike the lion who has usually the female lion parent anty or guardian provide the meals while the "males" usually watch over the cubs. In these times tiger cubs usually watch over them selves an stay in hidden dense or thick bushes, while lion cubs can fully be protected at all times by the male lions weather if it’s the father or the uncle who in verse grooms and plays with them as well as teaching them in rough play more fighting skills. Tigers must live the life of an assassin an adapt to the life-style of a ninja, while lions live there life of an Mma fighter who must adapt to the life style of a  spartan…

http://books.google.com/books?id=YlYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA44&ots=rzD1oua9iM&dq=ancient+india+lion+fighting+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Lion fighting experinces=2
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #2 Teen years:

In this stage of usual 1-2 years old, the tiger siblings separate an take there own paths, traveling far and wide to covering new territorys to claim for them selves, this halts an slowly diminshes over the next months to years of there lives lessening there fighting capabilitys until later, an brands him like all other cats straight into the world of a supreme hunter, needing hunt to feed only him self.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQlBLrHfNXGlDtGyOPth8ZicoOyqutXK1o8GVGaV7JPA_Du6LFv0Yz1wsI

Lions in there teen years remain in prides, if they do get driven off they form coalitions. These years they get to remain game an practice on there whole pride or group.


Lion experinces=3
Tiger experinces=1


In almost every kill the pride makes, fights break out in who eats first. Un-like the tiger who is usually solitary, wont have this amount of fighting weekly an monthly "Game-ness" through out his entire life, which can consist of minor domination fights between uncles an antys, to fathers and sons, brothers and sisters an some esculating to full on fighting, as they say only the strong survives…

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs36/i/2008/282/b/3/Lions_feeding_by_alecd.jpg


Lion fighting experinces=4
Tiger fighting experinces=1

From time to time lions being in groups an coalitions fight just for the sake of it, due to tempers that fly on rank an statuses…


http://jeffup.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/mrtslastbattle.jpg
http://www.vesch.nl/lionsfight_files/collage_lb_image_page26_6_1.jpg

Lion fighting experinces=5
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Lions are by far, more noisey’r than tigers in the day and at night, they display the power an owner-ship of territory by having a single male roar…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXkGSc6d0xQ

to coaltion of lions roaring…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTDt4cWaZn0

or the entire pride roar-ing weekly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKS_Cgkqmoo

which atracts near by rival lions to accepting and dishing out a challenge, while tigers usually just roar or chuff to locate there cubs or alert a mate of there locations.

Lion fighting experinces=6
Tiger fighting experinces=1

Stage #3 Adult Years:

As adults like any animal, insect, human, terestrial… has times of mating where the females go into estress an the male testosterone seeks out the females in those times. So they will most likely all 3; male, male an female cross paths more in these times than any other, an the males will fight for rights to mate. But again tigers, unlike lions who are solitary, will most likely face a one on one challenge…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Ybg8R5U_Y

while lions sometimes must face multiple lions…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pca5u-ud5Ag
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1419305/lion_vs_4_lions/

Lion fighting experinces=7
Tiger fighting experinces=2

Tigers usually live in thick jungles, that have very tall grass, a huge amount of plants an vegatations, an many big trees that are compact, dense, an next to the other. They often scent mark an leave scratches on trees to mark there territory, but actually seeing another tiger can be very difficult even if they are in the same radius, because they prefer to stay hidden…

while lions prefer to live out in the open savannah, where there’s bush thickets an trees are far away in open grounds, so spoting another lion is by far more easyer… from in close ranges to even vast amount of distances, which would lead to more confrontations than tigers.


Lion experinces=8
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

The saying of a lion only fights and a tiger only hunts isint and wont ever be 100% true, but it is quite accurate to a degree of the life styles they live, male lions will fight more than male tigers averagely due to the fact lions are social , and a male tiger will hunt more than a male lion averagely due to the fact he is solitary…
The primary job for a male tiger is to be a good hunter fighting will come rarely, only in two main themes of his life… mating an territory. Now for male lions who often do the heavy lifting an take down the bigger animals in times of the chase, the females majority of the time do the hunting, which leaves the male most of his time scouting his territory to protect his cubs, which murading male lions often kill cubs to make the females return faster into estress. So the primary job of male lions are to fight, they often have to fight males in single combat or as much as a coalition to even as great as a entire rival pride. This is the general basis of how the lion has gotten his title as King. As a King will go to war to protect his people. The tiger wont, the only big cat (The male lion) will do the same as any noble King would do for his Pride an family.

Lion experinces=10
Tiger experinces=2-1/2

So there you have it, lions fight and gain more fighting experince than tigers at 10 to 2-1/2… which puts it at, lions fight 75% more than tigers on average. That is the equivelent of taking a mountain man rambo like human and putting him in the octagon to fight a mma pro like Anderson silva. There are chances Rambo (The Tiger) can lay one of his signature death moves if he is aided by his thick jungle setting an ambush tactics on anderson the spider silva (The Lion) but it seems 75% of the time in a open challenge where two of the combatants are aware an initate a fair fight, Anderson will drop Rambo before he can do anything at all.
-

To finish up with this post...

In comparisons to what you said about a solitary animal/being can be no joke to a social being, is just a absurd statement that has no base whats so ever, a wounded lion would have just as much as ferocity as a wounded tiger, a lion just has a back up luxery the tiger dosent, people who are Great fighters in fact The Greatest fightershave been tawt that way, have been molded by social enter actions, a human fighter via=

-M.M.A Fighter's-Have Teachers
-Boxer's- Have Coaches
-Karate men- Have Masters
-Jujitsu men- Guru's
-Gung fu- Has Sensi's

and what ever form of fighting has a social "Bonding" like... "Dojo's", "Classes", "Teams" that all improves that individual (Socially), in the art of fighting. If you were to compare a person that is a solitary in his training (Punching Bag), he will not be as game as the one who went through all of those stages with there(fighting people), pack= Pride and be more consistant at it... Bruce lee dident just get as good as he was by solitude, he was tawt by his master, constantly going through trials with the chinese over-lords and americans alike...if he dident have a master= Teacher social impliment, he would have been like the average china man at best...the same goes with Iron Mike, as good as he was, he him self stated he would have never have made it with out the support of his coach, mentally and physically his coach kept him game...these are all social impliments, not solitary, the same way lions are hardened, and kept game through there social life styles....there Prides.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2013 at 22:53
Tiger is a nocturnal shy animal and to put him in a small cage with an animal who is in his element in the day time and with the camera and people, the tiger will not fight to kill it will fight to escape and in the process will suffer.That is unnatural for the tiger.To say that lion makes the tiger run in front of him or dominated the tiger will be a  untrustwothy statement.Let me elaborate it a little more.Saying hypothatically a tiger killed a croc stealing from its prey on land two or three times.To assumme that same tiger will be able to kill the same croc in the deep water will be untrustworthy statement.Being in unnatural surrounding is definately effecting the crocodiles abillties to protect himself.He is not fighting to kill he is fighting to escape.
 
Your second statement about those sculptures being photo realistic?Which one is photo realistic they all show a very small tiger half the size of a lion at the mercy of the king of the beast.I like the one where two extremly small tigers the size of japneese tosas  is harrassing the big royal king.Just by looking at them you know artist is glorifying the lion and had relistically no idea about the size of the tiger.
 
And frankly I am feeling at loss on   how to reply to that drama on ganges. Lion jumping up on the indian palm like a monkey.Indian proverb says that it is the most useless tree because it provides no shade to the tired man and fruit is so high up in the small canopy that it cannot be reached.So I will leave the lion having fun in the shade.
A little bit more information on tiger now that definately favours him a better animal than lion if they ever decided to cross paths.
About four millions years back they parted from a common ancesstor and went on a different evolutionary path.Not only had tiger developed better athletic abillities but also longer canine teeth(at one stage the longest in sabre tooth) and claws.It also develops a bigger brain than his cousin.Compared to lion tigers brain is 16 to 20 % bigger.That roughly takes him closer to thinking capabillity of apes.Its short term memory retention is recorded more than humans.
 
With the longer canines it also developed greater jaw pressure.In the quite jungle you can easily tell from a distance that tiger is feeding from the sound it makes by the breaking of the bigger bones of gaur and buffalo.National geographic scientist measured jaw pressure of the tiger to be better than hyena i.e  more than 1000 psi. Others say that it is closer to 1400 psi. Lions was recorded at 600 psi by national geographic. Here is some pasting from the wikipi which i assume you hve seen before-- attesting to the power of tiger. 

Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Varty - John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion#cite_note-Country_Life-19 - [19]

The conservation charity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Chinas_Tigers - Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion#cite_note-Save_China.27s_Tigers-21 - [21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geographic_Channel - National Geographic Channel 's documentary The Last Lions of Asia mentioned that a tiger has a weight advantage of 50 kilograms over a lion, and can kill a lion in a fight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion#cite_note-22 - [22

And here is a thought from RR who had seen lion and tiger in action in actual wild and spend most of his time hunting and writing on them " A dead tiger is the biggest i have seed in my life and i have shot an elephant.A live tiger is the most exciting thing in me life and i have shot a lion.A tiger in a hurry is the fastest thing i have seen and i have shot a leopard.A wild tiger is the most frieghtning thing i have seen in my life and i have shot a cape buffallo."
Rest in next post.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 00:37
Tiger is a nocturnal shy animal and to put him in a small cage with an animal who is in his element in the day time and with the camera and people, the tiger will not fight to kill it will fight to escape and in the process will suffer.That is unnatural for the tiger.To say that lion makes the tiger run in front of him or dominated the tiger will be a  untrustwothy statement.Let me elaborate it a little more.Saying hypothatically a tiger killed a croc stealing from its prey on land two or three times.To assumme that same tiger will be able to kill the same croc in the deep water will be untrustworthy statement.Being in unnatural surrounding is definately effecting the crocodiles abillties to protect himself.He is not fighting to kill he is fighting to escape.


The lion making the tiger run is not only just a well credited statement, theres more videos of lions chasing off tigers than vice versa, I checked, and I gave gifs demonstraing even female lions have the same formality of agression as the male. We are not talking about crocs, we are talking about a similar animal to the tiger, besides lions have killed crocs just the same.

Your second statement about those sculptures being photo realistic?Which one is photo realistic they all show a very small tiger half the size of a lion at the mercy of the king of the beast.I like the one where two extremly small tigers the size of japneese tosas  is harrassing the big royal king.Just by looking at them you know artist is glorifying the lion and had relistically no idea about the size of the tiger.


Before we go any further, I'd like to ask you to give a honest answer, reply... do you know anything about tigers...or is it you just fancy the tiger more than the lion?...Not Photo realistic???

Are you kidding me, maybe you should learn a bit more of the variety of tigers before you make silly accusations like youve been making...
-
#1. The absoultely only tiger sub-speices that has surpassed the lion in weight was the siberian and bengal. And the lion can rival there weights to being either similar or hevier on average and can even reach a thousand pounds as well so a minor kilo here and there isint going to mean anything.

#2 All other tiger sub-speices will absloutely always, every time look smaller to a african/asiatic lion, they only range from 200-300 pounds as the norm, far smaller than the african lion who can ranges 400-600 pound.

#3 The chinese and japanese art would consist of the this tiger...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_tiger - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger[/ur]

#1. The absoultely only tiger sub-speices that has surpassed the lion in weight was the siberian and bengal. And the lion can rival there weights to being either similar or hevier on average and can even reach a thousand pounds as well so a minor kilo here and there isint going to mean anything.

#2 All other tiger sub-speices will absloutely always, every time look smaller to a african/asiatic lion, they only range from 200-300 pounds as the norm, far smaller than the african lion who can ranges 400-600 pound.

#3 The chinese and japanese art would consist of the this tiger...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_China_tiger
So it will only make since when lions were brought over from persia aka the indian lion or Perssian lion as gifts to emperors an royal rulers, they would have dominated there native 200 pound tigers...(End of story) Your accusations that the art isint realistic is now...Disputed

#4. The lion will always visualy, look, appear, seem to be the bigger of the two because he has a Mane that can increase his mass by almost 40%, so I dont know why you are ignoriang the facts.

The only person who knows nothing about tigers so far, would seem to be you.


And frankly I am feeling at loss on how to reply to that drama on ganges. Lion jumping up on the indian palm like a monkey.Indian proverb says that it is the most useless tree because it provides no shade to the tired man and fruit is so high up in the small canopy that it cannot be reached.So I will leave the lion having fun in the shade.
A little bit more information on tiger now that definately favours him a better animal than lion if they ever decided to cross paths


You seem to be loss in general. Where does it say like a monkey? You do know lions and tigers have been seen in trees right? its rare, but they can and have been seen in trees. You have no idea about the pysiology of that specific palm for there is a varity some can be just as small as a plant, and others can grow taller than houses, for even here in hawaii our palm trees would seem to be climb-able to an extent by a lion or tiger. Where do you see a palm tree definitely favoring a tiger on, I thinking your confusing yourself?

About four millions years back they parted from a common ancesstor and went on a different evolutionary path.Not only had tiger developed better athletic abillities but also longer canine teeth(at one stage the longest in sabre tooth) and claws.It also develops a bigger brain than his cousin.Compared to lion tigers brain is 16 to 20 % bigger.That roughly takes him closer to thinking capabillity of apes.Its short term memory retention is recorded more than humans.


Its sounds like your just making this up as you go along, (no offence) to be honest. Its a bit laughable. The cat that has the most similartys to saber tooth cat in terms teeth size, would be the clouded leopard, he has the biggest teeth in perportions to body size, his fangs are the same size as tigers yet he is around 1/4th his weight making him have the closest assest to the saber tooth cat. 20% bigger brain, which did what? There is no study that indicated any higher form of intelligents, a silver back would be smarter than a tiger yet it still wouldent cultivate any means of a better fighter to a lion, a gorilla would be a screaming mess if he ever fought a lion as would a human bare handed would have his brain asist to nothing.


With the longer canines it also developed greater jaw pressure.In the quite jungle you can easily tell from a distance that tiger is feeding from the sound it makes by the breaking of the bigger bones of gaur and buffalo.National geographic scientist measured jaw pressure of the tiger to be better than hyena i.e  more than 1000 psi. Others say that it is closer to 1400 psi. Lions was recorded at 600 psi by national geographic. Here is some pasting from the wikipi which i assume you hve seen before-- attesting to the power of tiger. 


Huh! Thats a understatement if I ever heard one, anything longer would mean its less durable, snap a pencil in half 5x than see if you can snap the smallest peice the 6th time, anything shorter in length has far less'er durability than something thats longer. Those numbers are only estimated, all the numbers in the past have already been exploited and debunked by Dr. braddy bar, hes the man that made the first device to calculate Psi in Newtons, and he tested it in 2006...he has his own show on nat geo and those numbers werent from him buy a computer generated version.

This device is whats used to test bite psi...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9UNEDbXAc

all the old information were guesses, estimates, hypothesis of what they examined or studyed the animals eating, hence most agree that the jaguar has the strongest bite because out of all the big cats his diet consist of turtle and caiman which need hard bites to penatrate the shells and armor skin, they are merely numbers form out of thin air...none have been tested accurately on lions and tigers...in fact I was going to email Dr. Brady bar and see if he could do one on lions and tigers specificall healthy males of both speices. I did email him last year but I emailed his old email that he no longer uses, so the next time I'll get his inormation and ask, as of right now we dont know no one does, but if anything has taught us substance form its credability is that mastiff dogs^ can bite 550 psi his head is only the size of a 1'1/2 year old lion, and to a further extent of why the lion would have a higher bite than a tiger would be from that same video they gestured that the larger the head, the harder the bite, and it is schaller fact that lions skulls are bigger than tigers which would lead to the lion having the stronger bite.


Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."[19]

The conservation charity Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion."[21]

National Geographic Channel's documentary The Last Lions of Asia mentioned that a tiger has a weight advantage of 50 kilograms over a lion, and can kill a lion in a fight.[22


Yes all less then medicore opinions, only slightly higher than a person who pet'd a lion or tiger at a petting zoo, none of them can have any credability because the substance of this debate will revolve around opinions of people who have seen them fight.; None of them have. you cannot just assume they have, for you dont even have any credientials of the people who made those statements, I even showed a memmber of big cat rescue (Dr. Antle )who stated a lion would kill a tiger (near the bottom of the page)...
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=1

Not to mention I gave by far way more experts opinions than just 3 sleezy wikipedia ones, I already stated, collage papers and news papers can in no way accept wikipedia because they can be attributed by anyone and the substance dosent even high-light all that much.

The only one to have been some-what credaitable was john varty, but only by a little, for the fact he hasent seen a a tiger and lion fight, mostly all the experts I have listed, has either worked with both big cats, or has seen a lion fight a tiger, not a lion fight a lion or tiger fight a tiger but a lion fighting a tiger, they are giving there opinion on basics of the topic, which is lion vs tiger. Its funny how you diss-miss the chinese, and then go quote-ing a chinese org. XD XD

The bottom line is, so far...

I have Proved

- I presented more "Experts" that has favored the lion over the tiger in fighting than you or any one did in vice versa.
- I presented more "Accounts" of lions killing tigers in the wild and in captivity than you or anyone did than vice versa.
- I proved that lions are "Similar" in size to the biggest of the breeds the siberians and bengals and are the biggest living cat speices on average.
- I proved that lions would be better fighters by adding up "Both" there fighting experinces in the wild.
- I've proved by historical documents and artifacts all point to the victor of the two, who was is the lion.
-I've proved that the lion has more leverages and is more durable than a tiger.

I have proved that the data on hand sugest that the lion is superior to the tiger in fighting.


You have Proved

-You cannot except that the "Lion Speices as a whole" are averagely hevier than the "Tiger Speices as a whole".
-You cannot except that a lion looks larger than a tiger reguard-less if its the biggest breed the siberian.
- You cannot except that, what ever the tiger can do the lion can too.
-You cannot except anything of a lion winning or leverage favoring the lion for you proved that by...
Ignoring chinese art, storys, testimonials and accounts and then have hypocritically use a chinese source to prove your point, which ment nothing. You name tigers killing animals that a lion has already killed too, and claim the lion cant.

In reality you proved....Nothing, but that you have a bias stand point.

Nothing, affiliated with the lion vs tiger debate in its self.







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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 01:09
Crap, more typos and mistakes, I forgot that I cant hit the pre-view button on this forum...it will automatically send it in.

*Face palm*

and I cant edit it.

*Double Face Palm*

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 20:49
Have you seen a lion or tiger in the wild if yes when and where?


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2013 at 22:12
Originally posted by huntergill

Have you seen a lion or tiger in the wild if yes when and where?


I have, about a few months ago, it was the national geograpgic channel.

XD

XD

XD

I guess this concludes our discussion.

Looks like I'll be getting back to making points, since there was a off-topic relations in determining strength by comparing them to other animals, with a simple gesture of lions vs bears...the old saying (with no proof) that tigers are stonger than lions can be made less durable and creditable, now with occaisions of lions out gameing a much more powerful carnivorian/omni- opponent then the tiger's Grizzly and Polar bears...
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/African_Lion_vs_Grizzly_Bear_about729.html - http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/African_Lion_vs_Grizzly_Bear_about729.html

So if lions can hold there own and kill 500-1,200 pound bears, a 500 pound lion should out muscle a 500 pound tiger, a 600 pound lion should out game a 600 pound tiger, a 700 pound lion should be superior to a 700 pound tiger and so on, for I dont think there is all that much confrimation (with credability) of tigers attacking prime male grizzly and polar bears and surviving to tell the tale...if grizzly bears were in the same vicinity as african lions in the wild, we would have much more data on hand on there superior fighting capabilitys, not so much on tigers fighting brown bears other than rare occaisions (contributing to ambush), if I'm not mistaken, there are more accounts of Pumas doing better than tigers in the wild against bears.

Certainly there are just as much if not more accounts of brown bears making short work of tigers in captive grounds,








showing that the tiger is not as durable as the lion because of the lions mane, the tiger isint a well placed striker like the lion, the lion would have just as devistating blows as the bear, while tigers flurys are so un-accurate and quite feeble compared to lions and bears who swat and throw haymakers un-like the tigers wind-mill cowboy slinger who throws wildy. Also the lion has somewhat better fundemental plan in getting the throat of his opponent, he will bide his time and take the fight into a series of rounds ware-ing down his foe by a fighting tactics of up and up, almost blow for blow but in the same process bobs his head parrying away from what he can, and then when he feels the moment to be right he kills them with a well placed throat bite on his now tired opponent. The tiger does not do this and seems to be why the bear uses his wrestling moves to simply thrash the tiger and repeatively body slam him, the tigers tactics is some what un-orthadocs, and dosent really plan anything through, he just jumps in huge bounds and leaps from side to side flailing his paws hope-ing to hit something, uses all fours and latches on to his opponent, that would be a huge mistake against a much stronger bear, who would then simply rampage jackson the tiger and slam him around while returning bites of his own in the clinch, the lion clinches the bear to knock him down, the tiger clinches to grab his throat, a very risky and energy consuming feat...by that time if he doesnt kill the bear or lion, then there second wind will come surge-ing in and take on the 2nd round, by that time the tiger will have exhusted his stamina and his oppnonent can then move in for the kill.





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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 00:10

So you donot know that china is home for the siberian tiger was and still found in northren china and yunnan province is the home of bengal tiger in china. They must have imagined lion to be bigger than siberian or bengal because they don,t have a lion.

Posting  pictures selected where tiger look small proves nothing when each line written in the books and elsewhere by experts contadicts your claim and two years old cub killed by a adult lion you posted doesnot prove that lion will be able to kill the  adult tiger in the wild.
 
All your data is collected from the zoo, circuses and menageries where natural instinct of the animal is controlled and restricted. It is a different story in the wild.  
Let people be the judge. 
 
 20% bigger brain, which did what?
 What you think?Clap
 
 
 
  • http://www.ox.ac.uk/">University of Oxford
  • http://www.ox.ac.uk/news_rss.rm -  
3 september 2009

Are tigers ‘brainier’ than lions?

http://www.ox.ac.uk/applications/dynamic/news.rm?id=7&filter_category=science - Science

03 Sep 09

The Siberian tiger - found to be the closest molecular neighbour to the extinct Caspian tiger
Tigers have bigger brains relative to their body size than lions. Photo credit: Raffinger Enikö

A wide-ranging study of big cat skulls, led by Oxford University scientists, has shown that tigers have bigger brains, relative to their body size, than lions, leopards or jaguars.

The team investigated the relationship between the skull size – the longest length between the front and back parts of the skull – of a large sample of tigers, lions, leopards and jaguars and the volume inside the cats’ respective craniums. The researchers report their findings in this month’s Biological Journal of the Linnean Society

'What we had not expected is that the tiger has clearly much bigger relative brain size than do the other three species, which all have similar relative brain sizes,’ said Dr Nobby Yamaguchi of Oxford University’s Wildlife Conservation Research Unit (WildCRU), an author of the report with WildCRU Director Professor David Macdonald.

‘When we compare the two biggest species, on average the lion has a bigger skull than the tiger based on the greatest length of the skull. However, the tiger has bigger cranial volume than the lion. It is truly amazing that tiny female Balinese tiger skulls have cranial volumes as large as those of huge male southern African lion skulls.’

What we had not expected is that the tiger has clearly much bigger relative brain size than do the other three species, which all have similar relative brain sizes.

Dr Nobby Yamaguchi

It has sometimes been assumed that social species, such as lions, should have larger brains than solitary species, such as tigers, because of the need to handle a more complex social life within groups or prides. However, despite a few studies suggesting a relationship between big brains and sociality in mammals, evidence for the link is far from clear.

Dr Nobby Yamaguchi said: ‘Our results strongly suggest that there is no detectable positive relationship between relative brain size and sociality amongst these four big cat species, which shared a common ancestor around 3.7 million years ago.’

The team also looked at the popular idea that tigers are ‘bigger’ than lions (which could mean that the tiger’s relatively bigger brain size simply reflects its bigger body). However, careful re-evaluation of original field data and relatively well-documented hunting records does not support this idea.

So the team concluded that the tigers have a relatively bigger brain (around 16 per cent larger) than lions, given their very similar average body sizes.  

Professor Macdonald said: ‘Two general lessons emerge from our findings: first, how much remains to be discovered about even these most familiar of big cats, and second how important museum collections can be as a source of unexpected insights.’ 

The next step for the researchers is to try to answer whether such a difference can be explained by intrageneric variation or merely by chance. If not by chance, then it raises the question why the tiger evolved a relatively bigger brain (or why other species evolved smaller brains) after the tiger’s ancestor split from the common ancestor to the other three species.

The answers to both these questions may lie in analysing comparative brain anatomy amongst these species (for instance, which parts of the tiger’s brain are bigger than the lion’s) and similar data from extinct relatives of these big cats as well as smaller living relatives such as the snow leopard and clouded leopard.

Comparison between greatest length of skull and cranial volume amongst leopard (left on the lower line), jaguar (centre on the lower line), lion (right on the lower line), and tiger (on the upper line).

Comparison between greatest length of skull and cranial volume amongst leopard (left on the lower line), jaguar (centre on the lower line), lion (right on the lower line), and tiger (on the upper line).

  • http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_stories/2009/090903.html#wrapper - Back to top
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Further information

  • http://www.wiley.com/bw/journal.asp?ref=0024-4066 - Biological Journal of the Linnean Society
  • http://www.wildcru.org/ - WildCRU

Media coverage

  • http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/6126082/Tigers-are-brainier-than-lions.html - Daily Telegraph
  • http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/124632/Clever-tigers-beat-lions-to-the-title-of-kings-Of-The-Jungle- - Daily Express
  • http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2009-09/15/why-the-tiger,-not-the-lion,-is-king-of-the-jungle-.aspx - Wired.co.uk


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 04:41
So you donot know that china is home for the siberian tiger was and still found in northren china and yunnan province is the home of bengal tiger in china. They must have imagined lion to be bigger than siberian or bengal because they don,t have a lion.


wild siberians in china?

Hmm, even wikipedia (low credability) shows that there range is in siberia...you know russia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_tigris_altaica_dark_world.png - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_tigris_altaica_dark_world.png

I think you should stop while your ahead, I never said lions were indidgidous to china, but I did rove that they were imported way back as of the B.C days. Nor am I counting recent transportations importing siberians and bengals to china, Bengals =India... Siberians=Russaiathere are other locations but they are not the normal living quarters of there sub-speices....you should honestly do some reaserch about the animal you are backing up, because this is just getting sad.

Posting  pictures selected where tiger look small proves nothing when each line written in the books and elsewhere by experts contadicts your claim and two years old cub killed by a adult lion you posted doesnot prove that lion will be able to kill the  adult tiger in the wild.


Oh so your one of those fanatics eh? Making stories up, lol...Sorry but those werent adult lions, an adult lion is considered to be at-least 4 years of age, those were males not females becuase they have the mutton chop end on there cheeks, no female lion can have that, theres not one in history to have shown that, the female lion's cheeks are smooth round egg like cheeks, the males have pointy tips on there cheeks similar to the mutton chop even as young cubs... the beggining stages where a male lion starts his mane growth is 2 years of age, they show no signs of manes yet hence I put 1.5 years old...an thats funny I never heard of a tiger cub of 2 years old roar like that before lol, no tiger cub has that type of deep vocal chord at that age, but if you wanna belive it was a cub then by all means go ahead, you arnt the first, I even heard of people (cling-ing for dear life) making the claims it was a leopard before I got its pictures, XD..Sad Its just and implimation about what would happen in the wild, since lions live in prides and tigers are solitary, your whole argument...natures standards...right?

Posting pictures where tigers look small proves nothing?
You dont say???
XD XD XD First of all...

1.) I'm actually going to archive every single circus, sanqtuary, zoo and reserves photos that have tiger and lions in the same shot, this is only the beggining stages of whats to come, you cant measure wild ones because they dont live in the same area anymore, in other words you get a photo of a wild lion near a wild tiger to take a picture of them in the same shot and then compare sizes.

2.) If you think that I'm selectively cherry picking, which would be impossible, thats already more than 25 different places, different zoos, different owners, different circuses, cherry picking would mean I'm picking out a Rarity, if its so rare of have-ing a smaller tiger than a lion Show me more than 25 zoos, circses ect with much bigger tigers than lions(like I have of vice versa) , Have the dates on them in chronological order, there owners name and statistics and a variety of angles more suitable of the same distance neck and neck.

3.) If you are dead certain that tigers are much bigger and larger than lions visually, than when you produce a photo of a lion and a tiger standing next to the other, have "Confirmation" of there weights, there ages, and there sex to prove that, that tiger isint just older than the lion by significant amounts of age giving him more of a weight... head start. Make sure to have a screen shot of the weights age ect Confirming that individual weights, other than that I will not even take your post serious, and just laugh in how you now would be the one cherry picking, because I dought you can even produce one[/b of what I'm asking for, just one man...C'mon, your talking high and mighty, out of all the tens of thousands of photos out there...produce one where a siberian tiger the biggest of the breed is visually much larger than a full grown african male lion with [colo=blue]having all the statistics down of the same age, same gender. Via having the site with the highest credabiity confirming it and a email where I can reach them.

I bet you cant.

4.) I already brought in the weight statistics of over 20 zoologist, biologist, hunters, zoo's, reserves and scientist that actually weighed those tigers, not guesses, estimates and out of thin air numbers and they showed compared to body mass, that would be just about right when comparing a lion to a tiger in terms size, not to mention on the heavy end in captivity lions have reached 700-1,000 pounds just as frequent as tigers did, if not more. Tigers as a whole speices averages aroud 50 pounds lighter than lions do as whole speices...I already proved that, you denying facts only makes you look delusional.

All your data is collected from the zoo, circuses and menageries where natural instinct of the animal is controlled and restricted. It is a different story in the wild.  
Let people be the judge.


I actually have been letting people be the judge, I force no evident pressure in turning people aside of anything but the truth, how can most people know the truth when no one has seen actual data before...certainly not you, yet you still deny hard evidence, which I really couldent care less about...and it wasent my intention to sway any one to thinking that lions are larger than tigers on average, the data shows that its irrefutable...it wasent my intention to sway anyone to thinking that lions on average are hevier than tigers, the data shows that, its un-denialble...where do you see me lie-ing? Where do you see me cherry picking? I try to bring everything to the table and in the future I will, this is only the starting point and already it seems I have brought more evidence than any one on hand/on the internet in the american terms of english lietature, I'm sure other natiionalitys have much much more information on hand, but as for english...I havent come across anyone yet. And agian as for swaying, I managed to have talk'd with many people that once favored the tiger and now favor the lion, with the gesture of saying they dident know any of the crucial and basic information I have, in other words they thought tigers were bigger than lions on average, which is not true.



20% bigger brain, which did what?
 What you think?


Huh? Its not what I or you or anyone thinks, its what you can prove, what can you prove a tiger having a bigger brain does?

Nothing.

You'll only assume, make up, frabricate, halusinate in thinking a tiger can do more and then not be able t prove it, you can only dream of them solving puzzles, operating cars, doing math with a bigger brain, but in reality not one thing better can be shown of tigers being anymore intelligent than lions.

And nice...thanks for going out of your way in showing that lions have bigger skulls, which by that other video I showed would confirm a more accurate speculation that lions would have harder bites.

XD

XD

XD



And I'm sorry if I'm crushing your dreams of tigers being the largest of cats, but ligers have been around just as long as tigers and lions when in the same area, and by no means whats so ever is he the indefinite largest cat...the title of the worlds biggest cat in general goes to the liger...who dwarfs tigers...ya take a male tiger and breed him with a female tiger you get a large tiger, ya take a female tiger and mate her with a male lion, ya get the worlds largest cat who dwarfs any and every tiger who ever exsisted (compliments of the male lions geno)...




Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By sinbad the Liger


Charles knee's circus Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger



Josip 1987 clyde beatty circus Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


1979 christine samel circus berolina Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


1904 Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger
http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-liger.htm - http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/hyb-liger.htm

Tiger [--Dwarfed-- ] By liger


The tiger in the past was unique because it was to be belived he was the largest cat alive, now with futher studys will show that theres nothing all that special about tigers, being that the largest tiger to exsist was Jaipur, a obese 930 pound captive tiger, said by others to maybe have hit a 1,000 pounds, while the largest ligers max weight has been said to be 1,600 pounds, thats the size of 4 average sized tigers.

XD

XD

XD While as time goes along, it looks like the credability of tigers being tha largest cat speices is being closed in fast, and possibly with the right implimations the lion just might be able to strip him of that only title he has.

"We'll see"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uKnkjtaZJU - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uKnkjtaZJU









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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 04:44
Dam, one wrong dash and the whole thing gets put out of place, XD.

Geez havent been able to edit any of the content...whats up with that?

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: huntergill
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 20:32

Siberian tigers are not only found in  NE china but few in north korea as well.

Now where did the ligers come from... i mean in this lion and tiger thread.

If you really want to see with your own eyes how big the bengal gets in the wild, go to sauraha in chitwan where few of the  resident males reach close to  600 lbs scale.I will be there this summer .



Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 21:37


Siberian tigers are not only found in  NE china but few in north korea as well.


I'm well aware of that, whats your point? In compared to numbers of asian tigers, the siberian tiger would have been the less'er big cat in asia out of all the sub-speices of tigers in terms percentage.

Now where did the ligers come from... i mean in this lion and tiger thread.


I like to keep things intresting, since you bring no substance to the debate other than just saying what you want to say and deny factual data while at the same time contradicting yourself going on...at every turn. And you seem to be stuck on the idea that tigers are the biggest of big cats by far, when lions are basically at a stale mate at this point, so since you think tigers are the biggest cat I figure I make him look small by bringing the big gun, ligers. lol

If you really want to see with your own eyes how big the bengal gets in the wild, go to sauraha in chitwan where most of the resident males  easily cross 600 lbs scale.I will be there this summer.


Uhhh??? contradict your self much? I have seen the chitiwan studys and weight figures, theres no more than 20 on hand that were weighed, and no... I call B.S big time! Since you stated it, (I wanna see you link all the individual weight figures of chitiwan showing each tigers weights) I seen a statement from another member of yuku, an I know the numbers and they dident have no abundecey of 600 pounders, they consisted of 230 Kg averages= 506 pounds. And from what I heard it was from only 4-10 speicimens, that would be the quivelent of going to africa and taking 4-10 of the biggest lions from Kruger park which would still be hevier and linger in the 500-600 range if we are cherry picking (which is what your doing).

Speaking of "cherry picking", I thought you said you dident want to emit or impliment cherry picking? You stated not to look for small tigers (I dident I showed the average) now you pick the very biggest of the breeds high end and ignore the average? XD XD Does this threads title say african lion vs siberian tiger? No, does this thread title say african lion vs bengal chitiwan tiger, no. Its lion vs tiger, so we have to cover every sub-speices weight figures and divide its sum by what weight figures are availiable...(Not grabbing the biggest tigers you can find) we will then get that lions are hevier by 50 pounds. If you specifcally are narrowing your choices to a specific weight class, "which is cherry picking" then in terms vice versa I can do the same, mount kenya had a 600 pound lion as well, so if you wanna use any wild 600 pounder then we will in-corperate a 600 pound lion as well, since there are more than one 600 pound african lion, you wanna use a 700 pound tiger? Theres 700 pound lions recorded as well, any higher up, and we are in-dfeinitely cherry picking, and none of the 800 pound tigers have any credability to them, over 10 zoologist and biologist, along with scientist and zoo keepers (which I already gave testimonials of some) have all gave there opinion that those wild tigers were estimated hence wikipedia its self states they are un-realiable.

And again, you plorolize how big bengals get, chitiwan was only a 230 kg average, a 400 pound lion would still look either similar or larger than a 506 pound tiger because if you compare there mass, a 400 pound lion with a full mane, still would have a 20% gain in mass...20% of 500=100 the lion will be either of equal or greater mass. So c'mon dont kid your self, that would mean the relatively medium sized to big size lions which is 400-550, the 400 pounders will still look either the same weights/mass or the 550 pound end will look almost 30% larger in mass than a bengal chitiwan tiger.

And what happen? You sounded so sure of your self that I was cherry picking, wheres that same mass siberian tiger standing neck and neck with a full grown african male lion that has a full mane, along with the confirmation that they are the same ages?

So its really what ever you wanna post at this point, because so far all you have done was contradict your self...and if you dont mind, I would like to get back to sharing things of substance and credability...so dont mind me, I'll just get back on topic...

Lets speak theoritcally and hypothically here…lets give both combatants stamina guage’s of 100.

Who will have more stamina through there fighting tactics?

Tiger Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

We’ll cover all the ways the tiger and lion fights, there defensive state, to there offensive state, his moves from jabs to bites and parrying/evading, tactics to accuratecy and power.

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Tigers bounds in huge quanitys from side to side to all around.
(This pleets a lot of energy, and can leave room for error, in hude amounts of leaps you can land incorrectly, try fighting someone and in forms of dodge-ing, jump feet away at every parrying time, you’re sure to get tired faster instead of you could have just bob’d your head like a boxer.)

[size=24>-10


-Tactics, Game plan:

Tigers are explosive fighters putting everything they got for a fast kill, using all four limbs they latch on to lions trying to get to his vulnerable spots which is protected by his heavy mane.
(Fighting someone that has a protecting factor will turn this assest against him, like trying to hit a person with a head gear on and thinking that can knock him out only using a jab, which would barley faze him let alone knock him out.

[size=24>-25


-Strike-ing:

Tigers throw using two paws in rapid motion.
(Which the more punches thrown will plete your stamina faster. Any boxer will tell you this.)
[size=24>-10


-Accuratecy:
Tigers have very poor accuratecy, almost every fight ever recorded they only land around 2/5; 2 out of 5 hits.
(Missing would pleet even more than landing because it throws off your balance)

1.)
One lands, and the rest misses…

2.)
All misses, the swipes are only hitting mane…

3.) All misses, only nipping at the lions mane…


Clyde beatty statement, who’s wittnessed hundreds of tiger fights states that tigers miss a lot more than lions…
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg - http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg
[size=24>-10


-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
Tigers stand on 2 legs when fighting.
(This cost more energy than fighting on 3 because tigers physiology are not like that of bears and apes/monkeys, tigers are very long 9-11 feet/ so standing on two legs must aquire a lot of there body weight focusing on balance which does 3 things.

1. It diminishes there out put power of there strikes.
2. It makes them focus more on balancing mentaly and physically.

3. It decreases there sustainability of there center gravity making it easyer to knock them over.

[If it wasent for that table, that tiger would have been completely knocked over]
[size=24>-10


Lions Stamina guage at the start of the fight=100

-Defense, Evading, Dodgeing, Parrying:

Lions bob there heads from side to side to all around.
(which dosent cost as much energy as leaping.)

[size=24>-5

-Tactics, Game plan:
Lions pleets much less energy bide-ing his stamina in the fighting game plan that cionsist of rounds.
Lions are calm and calculated fighters and more acustomed at fighting so they are more use to it, hunting condition-ing and fighting condition-ing are two different things, lions are the more practiced fighter so they will be specifically conditioned for fighting, tigers more so hunting. Which will allow the lion to last through the whole fight.
[size=24>-20

-Strike-ing:
-Lions usually throw one paw, which exerts more power and use less energy than throwing 2 paws.

[size=24>-5

-Accuratecy:
Lions have well place accuratcy being they use one paw at a tme, you can better hone in with one paw at a time, theoritcaly the same reason in aligning things or viewing things that need to be straightend, people close one eye to get a more vivd and focused sight of the object.
[size=24>-5

-Stance, Fighting Position, Posture:
-Lions prefer to fighting standing in the 3 point stance when fighting which does 3 things…

1.It increases his strikes by generating more power using his other front paw as a anchor on the ground.

2.They can better aim with using percise pin point accuratecy.
3.It enhances there sense of gravity, this is the same reason in why sumo wrestlers and foot ball players take the 3 point stance before the call or the hike.

[size=24>-5


The fight will be in a series of rounds in the way the lion fights, so the only chance the tiger has in-corperated in how his usual tactics, he must absolutely always try and finish the lion quickly, if he cant he will be suspect to plete his stamina gauge, by the second or third round his gauge will be that of…

{Tiger: Stamina gauge=35}

{Lion: Stamina gauge=60}

Which then the lion would come in for the kill, and be much more efficent at it because the tiger would be then much more tired and has no means of any anatomy that will protect his neck, like the lions mane.







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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2013 at 21:51
Daaaam-ah! XD XD I put the wrong dam dash for the minusing the stamina part...Geez...aw wells, say la vi!

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 19:15
To better high-light and enphinsize that you actually brought no experts opinion that catters or means anything to this thread, the threads topic is lions vs tigers more specificaly who would win in a...

Fight

Definition of Expert:
1. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.
2.
a. The highest grade that can be achieved in marksmanship.
b. A person who has achieved this grade.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/expert

The subject of this debate is on them Fighting

None of these people you brought have seen a "lion and tiger" fight...





Owner of the Londolozi Reserve in South Africa John Varty said, "People always ask me which one is bigger? If a tiger and a lion had a fight, which one would win? Well, I've seen tigers crunch up a full-grown leopard tortoise like it was nothing. And lions try, but they just don't get it right. If there's a fight, the tiger will win, every time."[19]

The animal rescue organisation Big Cat Rescue of Tampa, Florida answered, "While we would much prefer that people focus their thoughts on saving these magnificent animals than on who would win if a lion and tiger fight, the power of these two largest cats seems to raise this question in people's minds. While it would depend on the size, age and aggressiveness of the specific animals involved, generally tigers have a significant advantage."[20]

The conservation charity Save China's Tigers stated, "Recent research indicates that the tiger is indeed stronger than the lion in terms of physical strength. Lions hunt in prides, so it would be in a group and the tigers as a solitary creature so it would be on its own. A tiger is generally physically larger than a lion. Most Experts would favour a Siberian and Bengal tiger over an African lion."[21]


You cannot just assume, they seen a lion and tiger fight, and you cannot use people who seen a lion fight a lion or a tiger fight a tiger, for they are two different scenarios and fight in two completely different ways, you must provide a person who's seen (Specifically a lion fight a tiger). And see-ing one, two or just a few occaisions does not make a person a "Expert" as the link explains an expert is the highest grade that can be achived, so you must provide a person that...

-Seen a lion and tiger fight
-Seen many occaisions
-Has knowledge on the over-all basis
-Provide a link to his exact quotas
-Has seen the out-come of both winning

Again you cannot assume any of those things, you must provide them. You must first show that they have experince handle-ing both lion and tiger, via quota and or photograph, credability will also be judged in how long has this expert been observing and exposed to the lion and tiger conflicts and surroundings. Hunters testimonials are not considred or reliable because they would still lack see-ing both in combat in inter-speices relations, unless you can prove that they have, which I dought you can. Again the burden of proof is upoun you if you cite a expert, you must show all the required information that deems him a expert and on topic.

Presenting those three sleezy reffernces from one of the most un-reliable web-sites wiki, is just a laugh...let me show you what a experts opinion of the most highest credability on this subject is suppose to look like...

{Clyde beatty}


The name "Clyde Beatty" headlined not just one, but two South Florida tourist attractions.

Clyde Raymond Beatty was the epitome of the "Fighting Style" of animal trainer: the lone man who dared, armed only with a whip, a chair, and a trusty pistol strapped to his side, to enter a circus cage filled with dangerous, man-eating jungle cats and subdue the raging beasts for the entertainment of the crowd. Born on June 10, 1903, in Bainbridge, Ohio, he ran off at the age of eighteen with the circus and soon worked his way up from cage cleaner to featured act, by 1927 being billed as "America's youngest and most fearless wild animal trainer."

http://www.lostparks.com/beatty.html - http://www.lostparks.com/beatty.html


Clyde beattys has worked with animals for just about 40 years. An Had the biggest acts of his time (Mix-ing) 40-50 lions and tigers together in the same show, of the steel cage arena.

Clyde beattys act consist of the same amount of tigers, sometimes a few more tigers than lions sometimes a few more lions than tigers, some lions were bigger than his tigers, some tigers were bigger than his lions:



{1940s}
http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=16177











{1930s}
http://www.granger.com/results.asp?image=0091662&stockindexonline.com=1&screenwidth=795 - http://www.granger.com/results.asp?image=0091662&stockindexonline.com=1&screenwidth=795

{1930s}


{1930s}
Clyde beattys and his tigers…


{1930s the big cage}







List of occaisions Clydes lions fought and killed his tigers

{1933}
2 tigers killed, In the the big cage
which was aired on 1933 in this 1962 article Clyde mentions 3 tigers were used an 2 were killed by his lion -

This is the movie
http://www.frequency.com/video/big-cage-lion-vs-tiger-good-quality/19567532 - http://www.frequency.com/video/big-cage-lion-vs-tiger-good-quality/19567532

{1935}
Clyde beatty Sikestonians saw a lion kill a siberian tiger in a local town circus
act.

http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/ - http://newspaperarchive.com/danville-bee/1935-09-16/

{1936}
Clyde beatty 18 tigers killed by lions 1936
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ

{1937}
Caesar the lion kills another tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ar1ZAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&dq=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=59GlULvdIYvrigKyxoDQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=Ar1ZAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&dq=lion+tiger+clyde+beatty+1937+kills+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=59GlULvdIYvrigKyxoDQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{1939}
Clyde beatty 25 tigers were killed by his lions 1939
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA564&dq=since+I+first+began+mixing+the+two+species+popular+mechanics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fOWeUPS_E8zSigKRu4CQAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA564&dq=since+I+first+began+mixing+the+two+species+popular+mechanics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fOWeUPS_E8zSigKRu4CQAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA

{1941}
Clyde beatty’s Lion kills Puna the male tiger



{1944}
Caeser kills 2 more tigers
Twice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly 1944
http://books.google.com/books?id=pzlBAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNyeUNOzJsisiAKSkIDQBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU - http://books.google.com/books?id=pzlBAAAAYAAJ&q=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MNyeUNOzJsisiAKSkIDQBw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU

{1947}
Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

{1950}
]Clyde beatty a new young lion named prince kills sleika the tiger
http://books.google.com/books?id=3h4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=3h4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAg

{1951}
Clyde beatty lion kills tiger 1951
http://books.google.com/books?id=Oh8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=Oh8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA50&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBA

{1951}
Clyde beatty lion named prince kills another siberian tiger 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19510220&id=xP8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4129,3364299 - http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19510220&id=xP8uAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nNwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4129,3364299

{Unknown date}


lion saves clyde beatty
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT72&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=Ow4EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT72&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwCQ

List of Clyde beattys Tigers…


Alice=Female siberian Tiger-- Killed by Detroit the lion
Saber=Male bengal Tiger killed by Caeser the lion
Princess=Female bengal Tiger—Killed by Detroit the lion
Bobby=a 600 pound Male Bengal Tiger—Killed by Caeser the lion
Sleika=400 pound Female Tiger—Killed by Prince the lion
Puna=Male Tiger—Killed by a lion
Ganges=Male Tiger-- Killed by rajah the tiger
Trudi=Female Tiger—Killed by Prince the lion
Singapore=Male Tiger
Frisco=Male Bengal Tiger
Rajah=Male bengal 600 pounds Killed by lion named Nero
Sam=Male Tiger
Nelly=Female Tiger
Soudan=Male Tiger
Samson=Male Tiger
Axel=male tiger
Rosie=Female tiger killed by Prince the lion
Sudan=male bengal tiger
Chester=Male sumatran tiger
Rex=male bengal tiger
Roger=Male tiger
Sheba=Female bengal tiger killed by Prince
Monarch=a 600 pound Male Siberian tiger
Gracie=Female bengal tiger
Big Ross=a 500 Pound Male bengal tiger
Venus=Female tiger
Jennifer=Female tiger
Queenie=Female bengal tiger
Royal=Male tiger
Ma’am=Sumatran Female tiger injured by Queenie the tiger
Rouge=Male tiger
Empress=a 400 pound female bengal killed by Detroit the lion
Toona= tiger killed by 2 lions
Nigger=Female spinning tiger
Prince=Male bengal tiger
India=Male Bengal tiger
King=Male Tiger

Clyde had mostly bengals a few siberians and even fewer summatrans, this is just a draft, I'll find all the links to each casualtie.


List of Clyde beattys lions…

Denver
Al
King
Brutus {Brothers} Sultan
Buddy
Nuba
Ned
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg
Pharaoh 800 pound lion
Leo
Simba
Congo
John
Henry 350 pounds
Prince {Brothers} Caeser
Detroit 600 pounds
Bessie 400 pounds killed by male tiger named theba
Sammy
Nero

http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=13310
Menelick
http://www.thecircusblog.com/?p=15937">

"I'll try and get pictures of all his lions and tigers along with the quotas"


Words from Clyde beatty

Clydes introduction about lions vs tigers:



The lion is the agressor:


The lion has a harder strike, and is mentally wired in battle:


The lion usually has no fear of the tiger, while tigers usualy fear lions:


The tiger dosent have the knock out power to K’O a lion


Peoples missenpertations of why the tiger is said to be smarter:


Tigers are not calculated fighters:


People in general think the tiger is superior:


Lions have manes, while tigers have no such protection:


The lion has superior power and tactics:


Basis his opinion upoun experince:



Compliments To Damon aka the Bold champ^


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg - http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1313.jpg

Tigers are afraid of the lions, want no part of them:
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg - http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg

9 times out of 10 a lion would whip a tiger:



Clyde beatty went through great lengths to protect his tigers

Clyde tried give-ing away a lion that killed many of his tigers:

Zoos Don't Want Tiger-killing Lion . vicious for Clyde to handle, he is too vicious for Clyde Fant to handle." the mayor said. Beatty offered to give the lion to the ...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=seYMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=02oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1175,1637259&dq=lion+kills+tiger&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=seYMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=02oDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1175,1637259&dq=lion+kills+tiger&hl=en

Clyde sends his tigers out first better protecting them from his lions getting at them…
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk45/brentlion_2008/brentonlion/CIMG1318.jpg

Clyde loved his tigers and loved working with his tigers:












-
-
Clyde beattys status as a Expert is an example of the highest forms of
credability, he has worked with "both" (lions and tigers), he has worked with them for 40 years, he has seen lions and tigers fight each other from lion on lion, tiger on tiger and lions fighting tigers as well, he has even been eye witnessed to almost all of his accidental casualties, he speculates the subject without implimenting bias for either sides, points out both there flaws, and both there strong points, gives appraisal to both there leverages in accounts wittnessed and in general. He basis his opinion on the fact that he himself was an eye witness to a lion and tiger fight. Something none of your experts have testimonials to provide this topic on.




-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 19:33
Son of a....gun...lol I'm starting to get the feeling that its not only my computer thats glitchy but this formating style on this forum as well, as for the stamina post, I ran it through another forums preview first and it came out fine, but when I post it on here, it put a different sign and symboe messing up all the red colors, along with this last post, there was no major under-line-ing issue on another forum yet this post has basically my whole post underlined...what gives admin?

You just get one of those software menders that diagnoses your forum and fixes all the bugs, because I cant even edit anything either...just a word of thought. ^_^

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2013 at 18:25
More exploiting and exposing the likes of Indragit wordpress . com by Raj
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-90.php - http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-90.php

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2013 at 18:11
I couldent resist, I had to transfer this sum up of indragits site and let people know the basics and the truth of whats floating around out there on the web about this subject...


The Lies from Indrajit.wordpress By Raj Part:1

If anyone wants to lean in and look too, heres the site this information comes from, another major website that twists facts, uses novels and fictional books, repeats the same incidents than counts them as different ones, a site that polluted the world with a bias point of view doing all that is possible to cloud your judgement with false and B.S data for over 7 years now...
http://indrajit.wordpress.com/bigcats/ - http://indrajit.wordpress.com/bigcats/

lol No wonder the internet is polluted with fanatics claiming its a one way scene of tigers can kill lions with ease... 7 years of sites like Indragit, jackjacksonj, free webs, comparisons, wikipedia, and the yuku boards will do that to a nutreul mind. Huh! Just think thats millions upoun millions of brained washed people.

Before we get into anything, let me give you an example of what this idiot does, he takes a quota from one person, who in terms over the years others have re-written it and used it in the exact same form of copying it word for word...look at this one..

Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on

It is used on 7 different books heres Google books high-lighting everything on bold wordings...
http://www.google.com/search?q=Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim+%3B+and+of+the+courage+before+man%2C+the+evidence+is+all+on&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim+%3B+and+of+the+courage+before+man%2C+the+evidence+is+all+on&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search

Since Indrgit, jackjacksonj, and free webs rely more so on just repeating the same occaisons and contents and trying to fool people that they have this vast amount of information that says everyone favors the tiger and no one favors the lion (By not providing the lions share/lying), since its just repeating the same quotas it makes it a whole lot easyer to exploit these idiots then a fake account…why?

Because a fake one would take time to crack, repeats can be solved faster than superman can fly. XD XD

Let me explain to you in how easy it is to exploit these f**king dummies …

(Step 1.) :study:  


I find out all the details of the occaison such as

-The Place
-The Dates
-The Occaisons
-The Quotes
-And other details


(Step 2.) :smt024


Then I look through google books and match them as best as I can, because there always is multiple people quoting it word for word so using a variety of the words from the story/book  will help get everything on the matter. So google books search engine does all the work, in a femto- second I get to jot down all the different articles to books that have people quoteing it or covering that subject.


(Step 3.) :smt115


I then put all the books that are on the same subject in Chronological order and catagorie form, which then I take the abstract that has the oldest form and look up if he made it or he’s borrowing it from some one else, which will lead to the original content.


(Step 4.)  :smt075


Probably the most funnest part…I get to dispute, exploit and expose there bullshit archives of repeating only one mans quota…meaning all the books those f**king idiots boust out that are multiple accounts or multiple occaisons can be rooted to only a single ocaison or study, ultimately meaning that repeating one account or one mans study…lets say Martials for example…just because theres 50 books saying in the Amphitheaters martial said the tiger won, dosent equate to 50 accounts and if the original poem dident say the words everytime then that exploits the writer who edited it...Thats like if 10,000 people were watching the Mirko cro op vs Bob sap fight, and seen Cro cop Tko Sap, if around 500 out of that 10,000 write a book on Cro cop winning, that dosent mean Cro cop Tko'd Bob sap 500 times.

or another example,

just because one person stated that the tiger is stronger by 69.9 percent over the lions 64.9 percent and all the books quote him doesent make a patented scientifical meaning of tigers are stronger…why? Because the people who quoted that root source dident perform the study and failed to realize that it came from a person who stated tigers can grow to be 18 feet long, making not only that impossible but makes his over all study flawed and a opinion not a fact, and anyone making claims that a tiger is 18 feet long needs to check them selves into a mental institue, becuase a 10 year old kid with a tape measure, meeasuring a tiger can provide a better result than that.

Its easy any one can do it, just go to there site, and copy the quota of its content and put it into google books, and then it will show all the people that used that occaison or quota.


Watch and Learn

Repeating of Edmonds menagerie

The Details of Similarities

The place:

-Ratchcliff High way, Birmingham
-England, London, Dublin
-Mr. Jamrach
-Edmonds moving menagerie

The story:

-The tiger accidently got into the lions cage
-The tiger broke down a partion and killed a lion
-The lion was past his prime
-One stated the tiger dessembowled the lion
-One states the tiger grabed his throat

More Details:

-The tiger had attacked a boy
-The tigers name is nana sahib
-The tiger had killed a jaguar

1.)
(1913)

(1906)

(1899)

(1899)~The Idler: An Illustrated Monthly Magazine, Volume 14 Chatto & Windus, 1899
(1899)~An Illustrated Monthly Magazine By Jerome Klapka Jerome, Robert Barr, Arthur Lawrence, Sidney H. Sime Chatto & Windus, 1899
(1886)~Wild animals photographed and described By John Fortuné Nott S. Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington, 1886
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=A+tiger+that+belonged+to+Mr.+Jamrach%2C+the+dealer+in+wild+beasts%2C+was+sold+for+%A32oo+to+Mr.+Edmunds+accidentally+enabled+to+get+out+of+his+own+den+into+the+adjoining+one%2Cattacked+the+occupant%2C+which+was+a+most+valuable+lion%2C+and%2C&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=A+tiger+that+belonged+to+Mr.+Jamrach%2C+the+dealer+in+wild+beasts%2C+was+sold+for+%A32oo+to+Mr.+Edmunds+accidentally+enabled+to+get+out+of+his+own+den+into+the+adjoining+one%2C%27attacked+the+occupant%2C+which+was+a+most+valuable+lion%2C+and%2C&btnG=

2.)
(1894)~Longmans, Green, 1894 Big game shooting, Volume
http://books.google.com/books?id=hMP0hsHOAkQC&dq=Phillipps-Wolley+tiger+has+killed+his+opponent+the+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s - http://books.google.com/books?id=hMP0hsHOAkQC&dq=Phillipps-Wolley+tiger+has+killed+his+opponent+the+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

3.)

(1888)~Monthly Chronicle of North-country Lore and Legend, Volume 2 Walter Scott, 1888 - Northumberland (England)
(1887)~The Monthly Chronicle of North-country Lore and Legend: V.1-5;Mar ..., Volume 2 V.1-5; Mar. 1887-Dec. 1891, Volume 2
http://www.google.com/search?q=Mrs.+Edmonds+with+her++menagerie++jaguar%2C+which+it+had+attacked+and+killed+by+ripping+up+its+abdomen+with+its+claws.+The+same+tiger+some+years+before+had+killed+a+full-grown+lion&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Mrs.+Edmonds+with+her++menagerie++jaguar%2C+which+it+had+attacked+and+killed+by+ripping+up+its+abdomen+with+its+claws.+The+same+tiger+some+years+before+had+killed+a+full-grown+lion&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search

4.)

(1877)~The large and small game of Bengal and the north-western provinces of India By John Henry Baldwin Henry S. King & Co., 1877 - Game and game-birds - 380 pages
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=a+menagerie%2C+if+I+remember+rightly.+A+tiger+burst+through+the+partition+separating+him+from+an+African+lion%2C+and+killed+the+latter+in+a+few+minutes%2C+but+the+duel+was+not+a+fair+one%2C+for+the+tiger+was+a+fine+lusty+male+in+the+prime+of+life%2C+whereas+the+lion+was+a+patriarch+whose+best+days+had+passed+and+whose+teeth+were+in+anything+but+fighting+order.&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=a+menagerie%2C+if+I+remember+rightly.+A+tiger+burst+through+the+partition+separating+him+from+an+African+lion%2C+and+killed+the+latter+in+a+few+minutes%2C+but+the+duel+was+not+a+fair+one%2C+for+the+tiger+was+a+fine+lusty+male+in+the+prime+of+life%2C+whereas+the+lion+was+a+patriarch+whose+best+days+had+passed+and+whose+teeth+were+in+anything+but+fighting+order.&btnG=

5.)

(1871)~THE MEDICAL TIMES AND GAZETTE
http://www.google.com/search?q=Accidents+havo+happened+also+in+some+of+our+English+menageries%2C+where+the+barriers+between+the+lion+and+the+tiger+have+been+broken%2C++invariably+kills+the+lion+Zoological+Gardens+in+Dublin&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Accidents+havo+happened+also+in+some+of+our+English+menageries%2C+where+the+barriers+between+the+lion+and+the+tiger+have+been+broken%2C++invariably+kills+the+lion+Zoological+Gardens+in+Dublin&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search

6.)

(1870)~wood's animal kingdom By rev. j. g. wood rev. j. g. wood 1870
(1870)~Animal Kingdom edited by John George Wood H.A. Brown, 1870
(1865)~The Illustrated Natural History (Google eBook) George Routledge and sons, (1865)
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=+leaped+upon+the+boy%2C+The+same+Tiger+is+also+celebrated+for+his+battle+with+a+lion%2C+resulting+in+the+death+of+the+latter.&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=+leaped+upon+the+boy%2C+The+same+Tiger+is+also+celebrated+for+his+battle+with+a+lion%2C+resulting+in+the+death+of+the+latter.&btnG=

7.)

~Chicago Daily Tribune of Apr 22, 1882, had a news article about a tiger killing a lion incidental to moving a menagerie.

They have accidentally gotten into each other’s cages, and the tiger has killed the lion. Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim; and as regards their comparative courage in the presence of man, the evidence goes to prove the superiority of the tiger.

~Wallace's Monthly, Volume 9 By John Hankins Wallace. Benjamin Singerly, Publisher, 1883 – Horses
~The Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature, Science ..., Volume 38; Volume 101 Leavitt, Trow, & Company, 1883
~Eclectic Magazine: Foreign Literature, Volume 38; Volume 101
By John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell Leavitt, Trow & Company, 1883
~The poets' beasts (Google eBook) Chatto and Windus, 1885 - Animals - 356 pages
~1883 Belgravia, Volume 51 (Google eBook)
~Belgravia, Volume 51 By Mary Elizabeth Braddon  Willmer & Rogers, 1883
~Belgravia, a London magazine, conducted by M.E. Braddon
By Belgravia1883 - 2 pages
~American Book Exchange, 1883 Good Literature: A Literary Eclectic Weekly, Volume 5 (Google eBook)
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim%3B+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=+Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim%3B+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search


Thats one account repeated in 24 Books!!!

And I havent even joted down all the other books that repeated edmonds menagerie, theres like 8 more Huh!...and he has the nerve to try and act like they werent the same? XD XD


You can visit his site through the link at the top and match the repeats in this quota box below...


4      REFERENCES

Almost all the references here have been provided by Charles, Damon, Ray of Hope, Maurice, Toxxon, Sam and others discussing this on the discussion forum.  
4.1      BOOKS



37. Big Game Shooting. Clive Phillipps-Wolley. 1894.

43. Curiosities of Natural History. 1865

63. Monthly chronicle of north-country lore and legend. W. Scott, 1888

64. The Large and Small Game of Bengal and the North-western Provinces of India. John Henry Baldwin. Henry S. King & Co., 1877

65. The Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature, Science, and Art. John Holmes Agnew, Harry Houdini Collection (Library of Congress)

72.Chicago Daily Tribune. April 22, 1882


5.4 More Opinions and Documented Fights


13.The Eclectic Magazine – Page 547. by John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell – 1844 [NOT VERIFIED YET]
“Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim ; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on…”

22.The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature …
Medical – 1850. Page 626
“The tiger, if in good condition, invariably kills the lion when compelled to fight.”

23.Curiosities of natural history – Page 234. by Francis Trevelyan Buckland – 1866
“The tiger immediately attacked the Lion, catching him by the throat, and in a few minuteskilled him. This same tiger is, I believe, still being exhibited in Edmonds’s menagerie.”

28.The Illustrated Natural History – Page 162. by John George Wood – Natural history – 1865

29. The Dublin university magazine – Page 409. by University magazine, Dublin city, univ – 1877



You just Repeated 11 reffernces on the same occaison!



Thats just one account repeated 11 times on his site, and theres tons more, shall we "exploit and expose" another one? Why not! XD XD

Watch The Master Work!

Repeating of Martials Poem and count Belisarius

First I'll get this one out of the way, Belisarius is a fictional book stated by google books here...
http://books.google.com/books?id=crplAAAAMAAJ&q=Occasional+fights+were+also+staged+between+lion+and+tiger+%28the+tiger+always+won%29&dq=Occasional+fights+were+also+staged+between+lion+and+tiger+%28the+tiger+always+won%29&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8VVzUcPJEIqZiQLbx4DoCQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=crplAAAAMAAJ&q=Occasional+fights+were+also+staged+between+lion+and+tiger+(the+tiger+always+won)&dq=Occasional+fights+were+also+staged+between+lion+and+tiger+(the+tiger+always+won)&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8VVzUcPJEIqZiQLbx4DoCQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Which in terms mel sunquist's book was quoting this novel word for word, so that means Mel's book is a fictional quota.

As for martial all hes doing is repeating the same occaison over and over again using different sources, we can now study the facts about Martial because we have his exact quota here …

"Lambere securi dextram consueta magistri
Tigris ab Hyrcano gloria rara jugo
Steva ferum rabida laceravit dente leonem:
Res nova, non ullis cognita temporibus.
Ausa est tale nihil, svlvis dum vixit in altis,
Postquam inter nos est, plus feritatis habet."

Translated by Anon…

OV THl PimiJO 8H0W8. 18

The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty
http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt - http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt

Now we know the [size=12]Facts!, that a single tiger killed a single lion…in no where does it state in Martials poem that the Tigers always won, or tigers invariably won, like all the f**king idiots that edited its content and claimed martial said the tiger won every time, lol how do you like these f**king losers trying to f**king re-write history…Huh!

The Details

Place:
-Rome
-Martial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial

The story:
-A single tamed tiger killed a single lion’
-A woman killed a lion

You can look into these links and see that Google Books will highlight in bold letterings that [size=12]Martial is there "Root source", so repeating 1 mans account dosent make it a different occaison….


1.)

(2009)~En wiki
http://www.google.com/search?q=martial+While+the+trainers+of+the+rhinoceros+may+have+trembled+in+fear+at+the+fate+that+awaited+them+if+their+animal+failed+to+perform%2C+and+another+trainer+was+savaged+by+his+lio&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=martial+While+the+trainers+of+the+rhinoceros+may+have+trembled+in+fear+at+the+fate+that+awaited+them+if+their+animal+failed+to+perform%2C+and+another+trainer+was+savaged+by+his+lio&tbm=bks&tbo=1

2.)

(2008)~ Gladiators: violence and spectacle in ancient RomeRoger DunklePearson Education, Limited, 2008
http://books.google.com/books?id=qNTfAAAAMAAJ&q=A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never&dq=A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CEVzUYneB-33igK_mYDYAQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=qNTfAAAAMAAJ&q=A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never&dq=A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CEVzUYneB-33igK_mYDYAQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

3.)

(1984)~{Mart as in Martial} BRILL, 1984 P. Papinius Statius, Silvae Book II: A Commentary, Book 2
http://books.google.com/books?id=VKpErlYIEsUC&pg=PA379&dq=because+Mart.+a+tamed+tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z0NzUYetHYeqiAL_t4HIDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=VKpErlYIEsUC&pg=PA379&dq=because+Mart.+a+tamed+tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Z0NzUYetHYeqiAL_t4HIDg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

4.)

(1937)~Animals for Show and Pleasure:Manchester University Press, 1937
http://books.google.com/books?id=BiXpAAAAIAAJ&dq=martial+tamed+tiger+killed++lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s - http://books.google.com/books?id=BiXpAAAAIAAJ&dq=martial+tamed+tiger+killed++lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

5.)

(1885)~Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated By Arthur Nicols
http://books.google.com/books?id=_g0AAAAAQAAJ&dq=Martial+from+actual+observation+of+the+contests+in+the+arenas+where+the+tigers+always+killed+their+antagonists+the+lions&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s - http://books.google.com/books?id=_g0AAAAAQAAJ&dq=Martial+from+actual+observation+of+the+contests+in+the+arenas+where+the+tigers+always+killed+their+antagonists+the+lions&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Ha ha ha we know now from martial himself that he saw only one fight, there was no tigers with an [  S’ ] just one which would mean this book is a big oh lie!

6.)

(1873)
Principles of animal mechanics (Google eBook)
Samuel HaughtonLongmans, Green, 1873
http://books.google.com/books?id=OzMDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=it+is+recorded+by+Martial+that+the+Tiger+was+able+to+kill+the+Lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6TpzUerNIoOziwKE7IHQAw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=OzMDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=it+is+recorded+by+Martial+that+the+Tiger+was+able+to+kill+the+Lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6TpzUerNIoOziwKE7IHQAw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

7.)

(1871)The Medical times and gazette, Volume 1 J. & A. Churchill, 1871 - Medical
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Martial+records+that+the+tigers+and+lions+fought%2C+and+that+the+tigers+always+beat+the+lions.&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Martial+records+that+the+tigers+and+lions+fought%2C+and+that+the+tigers+always+beat+the+lions.&btnG=

Ha ha ha we know now from martial himself that he saw only one fight, there was no lions with an S’ just one which would mean this lying rats book is a pure Lie!

8.)

(1831)~The Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal: Exhibiting a View of the ..., Volume 10
By Robert Jameson A. and C. Black, 1831
(1831)~The Edinburgh new philosophical journal, Volumes 19-20
(Constable)~The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Volume 12
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=martial+An+elephant%2C+after+having+trampled+to+death+a+bull%2C+went+and+knelt+to+the+emperor%3B+a+royal+tiger+killed+a+lion - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=martial+An+elephant%2C+after+having+trampled+to+death+a+bull%2C+went+and+knelt+to+the+emperor%3B+a+royal+tiger+killed+a+lion

Thats one account repeated in over 10 Books!!!


So lets now count how many times he repeated Martial and count belisariuses quota and oaccaison


4   REFERENCES

Almost all the references here have been provided by Charles, Damon, Ray of Hope, Maurice, Toxxon, Sam and others discussing this on the discussion forum.  
4.1      BOOKS


28.Wild Cats of the World. Mel Sunquist, Fiona Sunquist. The University of Chicago Press. Chicago. 2002.

35.Count Belisarius. Robert Graves. Cassell. 1938.

75.Principles of Animal Mechanics. Rev Samuel Haughton FRS. Longmans, Green & Company. London. 1873.

5.4 More Opinions and Documented Fights


7. Reference: Martial De Spectaculis 21

9. Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal, Exhibiting a View of the Progressive Discoveries and Improvements in the Sciences and the Arts – Page 57:
In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots.

11. Count Belisarius – Page 51. by Robert Graves -1938 [NOT VERIFIED YET]
“Occasional fights were also staged between lion and tiger (the tiger always won) or wolves and bull (the wolves always won, if in health, by attacking the …”

17.The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature … Medical – 1850. Page 626 [NOT YET VERIFIED]
“But the Roman emperor was determined to try whether the Bengal tiger could fight the African lion, and Martial records.”

18. Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated – Page 21. by Arthur Nicols – 1885
testimony of Martial from actual observation of the contests in the arenas where the tigers always killed their antagonists the lions”

22. The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature …
Medical – 1850. Page 626
“The tiger, if in good condition, invariably kills the lion when compelled to fight.

25. Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and


Thats one account and one novel repeated  10 times!

And I havent even joted all of them down yet. You belive these guys, trying to fool the world that tigers won that much times...Huh!


Using Experts that mention nothing


You used not one person that stated a full on detail in why a tiger would beat a lion, you only used one bias person... Mabel starks... who plain as day dident give a crap about her tigers lives by issue-ing a 1,000 dollar challange to Beatty saying her tigers would kill Clydes lions, which Clyde only promoted the showmen-ship of the big cage arena like hundreds before him and hundreds after him, and the ultimate testiment in exploiting that dumb broad, was that...if she was so sure of her self that a tiger would kill a lion, why dident she ever mix her acts with lions and tigers? Why dident she just get a random male lion and pit the fight herself? Lions only ran about 100-300 Dollars while Clydes spinning tiger Princess who was killed was worth 10,000 dollars...that means Mabel could have bought 5 lions with that 1,000 dollars and pitted them with her mastiff size tigers, but she dident have the balls, probably all 5 lions would just have massacered her tigers. She was afraid of lions, she mentions in her book, she dident get lions, she dident understand lions and early on quit working with them...she said it her self...
http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/79 - http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/79

Show me one incident where clyde stated he dident like tigers? I can show you tons of sources of his affection you say he hasn't got twards tigers in forms of photographs, testimonials, books, other peoples words, his own words that all showed he loved his tigers. Its not his fault that lions are superior fighters and tigers cant adapt to the lions way of life...hes not the only one who mixed the act and lost a tiger to a lion either, but he certainly was the most famous for having the most tigers and lions in one cage. Name one person who had as much lions and tigers?

Nobody!


Show me one of Mabels tigers that was as big as Clyde beattys tiger Sabre...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Circus-Clyde-Beatty-Sabre-rebel-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-Press-Photo-/360532228286 - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2012-Circus-Clyde-Beatty-Sabre-rebel-Royal-Bengal-Tiger-Press-Photo-/360532228286

Where's the 800 pounders you said Mabel had...






lol, Mabels starks 200-400 pound tigers would have gotton murdred if she was to pit any one of them Mastiff size cats with Clydes Goliath lions...I'd even say Clydes tigers would smash starks tigers...hers were gifts from louis roth all mostly captive bread, while majoirty of Beattys tigers and lions were caught by Buck and Sahib from the wild.
Thats also the bottom line in exploiting you as well, you chastised, clyde, you twisted his words in his books, you cherry picked only times where a tiger was only protecting himself and turned it into one of the dumbest shit I have ever heard, that his tigers... chester, rex, and some summtran tigers can beat up 9 african lions. XD XD XD, all your experts dosent make any such claim with proof to back it up that what they are saying is any where remotely possible...you can take all your desperate attempts the hell out of here...because theres no way a nutruel person would take anything you have brought serious and leave it out on the web to pollute the world with your bias wants for 7 years...


(1.)

3.2.2      Other Experts

Alfred Court, the celebrated animal trainer, mentioned, “Tigers are my weakness. Despite my satisfaction in our eleven lion, …… This set me free to return to my seven tigers, who were, and always would be, my consuming passion. I have trained many cats since then, but it is that princely pleiad that I remember most affectionately today.” In the same chapter he said, “….. the trick is less risky with a lion, for tigers in general are more intelligent.” (Ref. 1).  

(My opinion)

Alfred court mentions nothing of anything that makes you think he favors a tiger over a lion in a fight, he mentions no leverages, what does intelligents in performing tricks suppose to cater in a fight with a lion? This should be dis-reguarded for it is only a stand point of who he admires more not who he favors in a fight…its like a whos your favorite animal poll.

(2.)

Charles Wilkins’ book has it that, “Every weapon it’s got has to be deadly efficient. Each of its retractable claws, for example, is independently articulated, so that, having grabbed its prey, it can drag it in, as if on a conveyor belt, without having to release its grip. ‘A lion can’t do that, because its claws aren’t fully retractable and because they all work together. If it grabs you through the cage bars and wants to pull you in, it has to release its grip every time it moves farther along your arm or leg, so you have a chance to escape. If a tiger gets even a thread of your clothing, it can have your arm or leg through the slot in a instant.” (Page 9, Ref. 2).

(My opinion:)
What would that do against a lion who is even stronger in the front quarters, try and hold some one in a standing position who is stronger than you, it will do nothing but pleet your own energy.

(3.)

“The late Alex Kerr (1957), the famous wild-cat trainer of Bertram Mills Circus, was another tiger-supporter” (Page 77, Ref. 19) and said that the tiger is the stronger between the two.  [INDRAJIT.WORDPRESS.COM]

(My opinion)

Lions are stronger in the front quarters while tigers are stronger in the back limbs, this isint a running or jumping contest, so show the proof that he is talking about them fighting or take it down.

(4.)


Where both animals existed in the same tract the more powerful animal, viz., the tiger, would debar the lion from frequenting forest tracts, and this no doubt was an important contributory cause to the disappearance of the lion from Central India.

(My opinion)

No base, to his statement, lions would win out almost every fight because they are aided by the pride, asiatic lions record pride of group members was a pride that consist of 32 lions, a tiger would commit suicide if he ventured near a lions pride of average-ing 8-12 lions, not to mention one lion has the only record of winning an ocaison in the wild, so a asiatic lion is just as willing and game as a bengal, let alone it would be almost impossible for a tiger to take on multiple lions in the wild and drive them away…your living in fairy tale land right…take this stupid shit kinda alibies down when you know that poaching and exssive hunting was the cause of lions declining faster than tigers in asia, simply because they live in the open, while tigers remain hidden…a hunter can rid a group of lions in one crack because they live in prides…be realistic, not riduclous.

(5.)

Rev Haughton, a zoologist, was  of the opinion that tigers are far superior to lions in strength and will kill the lions in fights (Page 392 Ref 75 and Page 495 Ref 76)  

(My opinion)

Ahh, the person who thinks that tigers are longer than lions by 10 feet, and has ridculous claims of strength and who even quotes martial and edmonds mengeries accident (possiblely novel) that guy? If you insist in using retarded statements of 18 foot tigers, than whats stoping people from saying lions can kill 10,000 tigers in one fight? Its bull shit and should be taken off asap, if you don’t… then we’ll all know you rely on anything that favors the tiger even fiction.

(6.)

Roman Proske had trained both lions and tigers but had always been more fascinated by the tigers. On a similar note to that of Mabel Stark, he mentions about tigers, “they were, and they remain, to me the most inscrutable, the most dangerous, the most beautiful and the most fascinating of all wild animals (Page 173, Ref. 54). …….. Here is nature’s perfect creation for death and destruction. The lion, in comparison, is a great bluffer” (Page 174, Ref. 54).  

(My opinion)

What is this, more people who just are stating they like tigers? How desperate are you? Is this some type of poll where who ever likes a tiger…will mean that a tiger will win in a fight with a lion…lol and that statement would show you are cherry picking, Roman proske stated that when female lions or tigresses go into estrus, not even the tiger is as agressive and dangerous as the male lion.





Huh!

And thats how the cookie crumbles.

Ya heard that? I... not you...strive to actually correct my faults, your list of lies, fictional books, novels, repeats have gone all un-checked by you for 7 years...you dident present any thing for the lions side that you dident try and down grade.

So for now thats exactly 27 reffrences you have to take out, you stated you had around 77 refferences so 27 - 77 = 50

All Indragits wordpress .com consist of is....
http://indrajit.wordpress.com/bigcats/ - http://indrajit.wordpress.com/bigcats/

-15% =  Cherry picking the statistics such as weights Anatomy, Sociallity, Attributes
-5%  = Tigers winning
-10% = Lions winning (Yet degrading each account and making like its a unreliable)
-30% = Are Repeating the same accounts and quotas and uses Novels and fictional books
-30% = Of just twisting Clyde beattys statements
-10% Non-related content

So since Clyde beatty is what makes up of 30% of his site, and Clyde is the ultimate testiment that lions dominanted tigers and mentions no where that he favors tigers in a fight, and only has information showing that his tigers will defend them selves. Then he lost 30% of his site in one crack. The other 30% is of him repeating 3 main quotas and occaisons, which is Edmonds mengerie, Martials poem, and the scientist that thinks tigers are 18 feet long and are much much stronger than lions...So thats already 60% of his site. he actually presented more accounts of a lion killing a tiger than vice versa because some of his accounts are novels, others are lies, and most are of a female lions being killed by male tigers, so in that conjunction the little list of real accounts of 15% of both lions and tigers can stay, which would then prove that lions usually win against tigers. His other 15% is of cherry picked weights, and disputing any leverage the lion has, which is idiotic. If he cant handle the facts he shouldent have made his site...re-reading his content, I can plain as day see hes just a cry baby who cant handle that the lion has more leverages and needs to just twist facts and lies about numerous things to cloud peoples judgement. And finally the last  10% of his site are of non-related content, getting a experts quota that says he likes tigers is by no means any where affiliated with who would win in a fight with a lion and tiger...so he lost that 10% as well.

So, all he really has is around a 20% stand point a weak and medicore debate...and 80% of his site, is just pure balone, he mixes things around, seperates the quotes from the refferences source to give his site a longer look appeal and even added 90% of the exact same refferences on the bottom half titled more opinions and accounts...they arnt more, they are exactly the same. And I bet he wont even edit out any of these things I pointed his way, which he high-lighted on his front page in capital letters and in red, saying he would. Huh!

But if you read between the line, and see his idiotic reply to me... he actually proved that lions are superior to tigers. XD XD

And I havent even gotton started pointing out yet all the rest of your repeated crap that he claimed that all his sources prove that the tiger is superior. lol

YESAH! I GOT THE FIRE BACK!!!

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 24-May-2013 at 19:48
My bad for Multi posting if I could edit my post and squeeze them in one I would, but I figure I transfer some essential data to this topic.

Tiger Victorys Not what it seems


I'll exploit the ever hide-ing, ever lying... and for-ever low-lifes of the yuku team, (Mainly) Paul aka P tigris, lyon, non-prime, and all the other wap names he's under, along with his boy-friend Jackjacksonj and his scitsofranic 100 aliases he goes by...they wont ever put there list in chronological order because it will show its so small its laughable probably clyde beatty has more then the entire history of comparing death accounts (1 man) lol, while theres are consisting mostly of repeats, fictional books, novels, splices and more. So since they are petrified of man-ing up, I'll step in and for educational purposes and the better of man-kind of the word the truth! I myself will put the list in chronological order and see just how much we have to work with.

For this specific one, I'll seperate them in two themes, because alot of them are mis-leading and dosent have/show what it emits, some say the tiger won all the time, (Martials editorials) and yet its original content states only one occaison, some say the tiger always defeated the lion yet further reading the same abstract (Kersi singh) says it was only one or two smacks, thats no death account let alone a fight. It will be formated in the way of Chronolgy the (time-line) will show just how much wins the tiger actually has...So lets get started in exploiting what these waps have been consealing, hiding and twisting the truth for over 6 years...


Theme 1:

{---{2010}---}

Tiger kills lion, the orginal article is in 2010 spetember 4th but these say 2011, so when I get the orginal I’ll swap it out…
http://www.google.com/search?q=tiger+kills+lion+ankara+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=tiger+kills+lion+ankara+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

{---{2007}---}

Seato John vartys biggest male tiger kills savannah the lioness…
http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/savannahtributes.htm - http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/savannahtributes.htm

{---{2005}---}

The tiger always wins
http://books.google.com/books?id=91YEjh1y0g4C&pg=SL16-PA257&dq=Impulse+archeology+the+tiger+always+won&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HtybUf-uNavOigLu34CwBw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=91YEjh1y0g4C&pg=SL16-PA257&dq=Impulse+archeology+the+tiger+always+won&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HtybUf-uNavOigLu34CwBw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

{---{1965}---}

saba had killed two lions
-
saba was most likely a trouble maker tiger killing animals much smaller than himself, notice the articles stated he killed a tiger just about half his age and was a female, so most likely these two lions are cubs as well, I'll dig up more about this tiger and age of the lions later when I find out what is the name of the circus.

- {---{1953}---}

ACQUI, Italy, A wild— animal trainer said Saturday a lioness who saved him from an attack by a tiger during a per formance last Thursday had been killed
http://www.google.com/search?q=Lioness+Killed+In+Revenge+By+Tiger+ACQUI%2C+Italy%2C+A+wild%97+animal+trainer+said+Saturday+a+lioness+who+saved+him+from+an+attack+by+a+tiger+during+a+per+formance+last+Thursday+had+been+killed+in&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=saba+had+killed+two+lions+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N[/ur]

saba was most likely a trouble maker tiger killing animals much smaller than himself, notice the articles stated he killed a tiger just about half his age and was a female, so most likely these two lions are cubs as well, I'll dig up more about this tiger and age of the lions later when I find out what is the name of the circus.

- {---{1953}---}

ACQUI, Italy, A wild— animal trainer said Saturday a lioness who saved him from an attack by a tiger during a per formance last Thursday had been killed
http://www.google.com/search?q=Lioness+Killed+In+Revenge+By+Tiger+ACQUI%2C+Italy%2C+A+wild%97+animal+trainer+said+Saturday+a+lioness+who+saved+him+from+an+attack+by+a+tiger+during+a+per+formance+last+Thursday+had+been+killed+in&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search

{---{1945}---}

Tiger In Mysore Zoo Kills Lioness .
Indian Express - Nov 20, 1945
BANGALORE, Nov. The strange story of how a tiger killed a lioness Is received here from Mysore.

http://www.google.com/search?q=BANGALORE%2C+Nov.+The+strange+story+of+how+a+tiger+killed+a+lioness+Is+received+here+from+Mysore.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=BANGALORE%2C+Nov.+The+strange+story+of+how+a+tiger+killed+a+lioness+Is+received+here+from+Mysore.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search

{---{1914}---}

Huerta, a 2-year-old Nubian lion, was killed yesterday in a terrific battle with Rajah, a big Bengal tiger, In Bronx Park Zoo. Keepers and attendants made fruitless attempts to stop the bloody duel. It was an unequal combat, Rajah being; nearly twice the size of his opponent, but Huerta fought gamely until he was cornered and killed by the snap of Rajah's Jaws across the back of his neck. In some unexplained manner the door between the cages of the two denizens of the Jungle became unbarred during the night, and Huerta got Into Rajah's cage 'about 7 o'clock this morning and immediately the battle began. Huerta had the better of the fight during the first few minutes. He seemed as anxious for the fray as the big tiger, and was poised for a leap at Rajah's throat when the tiger got the death grip. With the body of the lion lying inert on the floor, Rajah sniffed at it a few times to satisfy himself that he had completed his work, and then backed into a corner, where he began administering to his own wounds. He had not come out of the fight unscathed. One ear was chewed off, his neck and back had been lacerated, and he may lose an eye.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/243244162.html?dids=243244162:243244162&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=May+9%2C+1914&author=From+the+New+York+Herald.&pub=The+Washington+Post++%281877-1954%29&edition=&startpage=6&desc=TIGER+KILLS+LION+IN+FIGHT - http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/243244162.html?dids=243244162:243244162&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=May+9%2C+1914&author=From+the+New+York+Herald.&pub=The+Washington+Post++(1877-1954)&edition=&startpage=6&desc=TIGER+KILLS+LION+IN+FIGHT

{---{1902}---}

FIGHT IN A LION'S DEN
A TIGER KILLS A LIONESS
FIERCE STRUGGLE FOR TWENTY
MINUTES
PERTH, W.A., June 18
~Wanganui Chronicle, Volume XXXXVII, Issue 11687, 2 July 1902, Page 7
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WC19020702.2.35&cl=search&srpos=3&e=-------10--1----0lion+kills+tiger+--&st=1 - http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WC19020702.2.35&cl=search&srpos=3&e=-------10--1----0lion+kills+tiger+--&st=1

{---{1899}---}

An Extraordinary Combat In Which the King of Beasts Was Vanquished---A Battle
http://www.google.com/search?q=An+Extraordinary+Combat+In+Which+the+King+of+Beasts+Was+Vanquished---A+Battle&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=An+Extraordinary+Combat+In+Which+the+King+of+Beasts+Was+Vanquished---A+Battle&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search

{---1891---}
Tiger kills lioness


http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25 - http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25

Its repeated in many different sources as well, I'll get the books and articles they are in later, that way he cant re-count the same occaison multiple times.

{---{1860's}---}

All the times edmonds menagerie was repeated with the proof...

[spoiler]
Repeating of Edmonds menagerie

The Details of Similarities

The place:
-Ratchcliff High way
-England

The owners:
-Mr. Jamrach
-Edmonds moving menagerie

The newspaper sources are at:
-Dublin
-London

The story
-The tiger accidently got into the lions cage
-The tiger broke down a partion and killed a lion
-The lion was past his prime
-One stated the tiger dessembowled the lion
-One states the tiger grabed his throat

More Details
-The tigers name is nana sahib
-The tiger had attacked a boy
-The had killed a jaguar

1.)

(1899)
The Idler: An Illustrated Monthly Magazine, Volume 14 Chatto & Windus, 1899
(1899)
An Illustrated Monthly Magazine By Jerome Klapka Jerome, Robert Barr, Arthur Lawrence, Sidney H. Sime Chatto & Windus, 1899
(1886)
Wild animals photographed and described
By John Fortuné Nott S. Low, Marston, Searle, & Rivington, 1886
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=A+tiger+that+belonged+to+Mr.+Jamrach%2C+the+dealer+in+wild+beasts%2C+was+sold+for+%A32oo+to+Mr.+Edmunds+accidentally+enabled+to+get+out+of+his+own+den+into+the+adjoining+one%2Cattacked+the+occupant%2C+which+was+a+most+valuable+lion%2C+and%2C&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=A+tiger+that+belonged+to+Mr.+Jamrach%2C+the+dealer+in+wild+beasts%2C+was+sold+for+%A32oo+to+Mr.+Edmunds+accidentally+enabled+to+get+out+of+his+own+den+into+the+adjoining+one%2C%27attacked+the+occupant%2C+which+was+a+most+valuable+lion%2C+and%2C&btnG=

2.)
(1894)Longmans, Green, 1894 Big game shooting, Volume
http://books.google.com/books?id=hMP0hsHOAkQC&dq=Phillipps-Wolley+tiger+has+killed+his+opponent+the+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s - http://books.google.com/books?id=hMP0hsHOAkQC&dq=Phillipps-Wolley+tiger+has+killed+his+opponent+the+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s

3.)

(1888)~Monthly Chronicle of North-country Lore and Legend, Volume 2 Walter Scott, 1888 - Northumberland (England)
(1887)~The Monthly Chronicle of North-country Lore and Legend: V.1-5; Mar ..., Volume 2 V.1-5; Mar. 1887-Dec. 1891, Volume 2
http://www.google.com/search?q=Mrs.+Edmonds+with+her++menagerie++jaguar%2C+which+it+had+attacked+and+killed+by+ripping+up+its+abdomen+with+its+claws.+The+same+tiger+some+years+before+had+killed+a+full-grown+lion&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Mrs.+Edmonds+with+her++menagerie++jaguar%2C+which+it+had+attacked+and+killed+by+ripping+up+its+abdomen+with+its+claws.+The+same+tiger+some+years+before+had+killed+a+full-grown+lion&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search

4.)

(1877)~The large and small game of Bengal and the north-western provinces of IndiaBy John Henry Baldwin Henry S. King & Co., 1877 - Game and game-birds - 380 pages
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=a+menagerie%2C+if+I+remember+rightly.+A+tiger+burst+through+the+partition+separating+him+from+an+African+lion%2C+and+killed+the+latter+in+a+few+minutes%2C+but+the+duel+was+not+a+fair+one%2C+for+the+tiger+was+a+fine+lusty+male+in+the+prime+of+life%2C+whereas+the+lion+was+a+patriarch+whose+best+days+had+passed+and+whose+teeth+were+in+anything+but+fighting+order.&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=a+menagerie%2C+if+I+remember+rightly.+A+tiger+burst+through+the+partition+separating+him+from+an+African+lion%2C+and+killed+the+latter+in+a+few+minutes%2C+but+the+duel+was+not+a+fair+one%2C+for+the+tiger+was+a+fine+lusty+male+in+the+prime+of+life%2C+whereas+the+lion+was+a+patriarch+whose+best+days+had+passed+and+whose+teeth+were+in+anything+but+fighting+order.&btnG=

5.)
(1871)THE MEDICAL TIMES AND GAZETTE
http://www.google.com/search?q=Accidents+havo+happened+also+in+some+of+our+English+menageries%2C+where+the+barriers+between+the+lion+and+the+tiger+have+been+broken%2C++invariably+kills+the+lion+Zoological+Gardens+in+Dublin&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Accidents+havo+happened+also+in+some+of+our+English+menageries%2C+where+the+barriers+between+the+lion+and+the+tiger+have+been+broken%2C++invariably+kills+the+lion+Zoological+Gardens+in+Dublin&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search


6.)
(1870)~wood's animal kingdom By rev. j. g. wood rev. j. g. wood 1870
(1870)~Animal Kingdom edited by John George Wood H.A. Brown, 1870
(1865)~The Illustrated Natural History (Google eBook)
George Routledge and sons, (1865)
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=+leaped+upon+the+boy%2C+The+same+Tiger+is+also+celebrated+for+his+battle+with+a+lion%2C+resulting+in+the+death+of+the+latter.&btnG= - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=+leaped+upon+the+boy%2C+The+same+Tiger+is+also+celebrated+for+his+battle+with+a+lion%2C+resulting+in+the+death+of+the+latter.&btnG=

7.)

Chicago Daily Tribune of Apr 22, 1882, had a news article about a tiger killing a lion incidental to moving a menagerie.

They have accidentally gotten into each other’s cages, and the tiger has killed the lion. Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim; and as regards their comparative courage in the presence of man, the evidence goes to prove the superiority of the tiger.

~Wallace's Monthly, Volume 9 By John Hankins Wallace. Benjamin Singerly, Publisher, 1883 – Horses
~The Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature, Science ..., Volume 38; Volume 101 Leavitt, Trow, & Company, 1883
~Eclectic Magazine: Foreign Literature, Volume 38; Volume 101
By John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell Leavitt, Trow & Company, 1883
~The poets' beasts (Google eBook) Chatto and Windus, 1885 - Animals - 356 pages
~1883 Belgravia, Volume 51 (Google eBook)
~Belgravia, Volume 51 By Mary Elizabeth Braddon  Willmer & Rogers, 1883
~Belgravia, a London magazine, conducted by M.E. Braddon
By Belgravia1883 - 2 pages
~American Book Exchange, 1883 Good Literature: A Literary Eclectic Weekly, Volume 5 (Google eBook)
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim%3B+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=+Feats+of+strength+are+authenticated+of+the+tiger+to+which+the+lion+can%2C+on+evidence%2C+lay+no+claim%3B+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search [/spoiler]


{---{1857}---}

“In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”

{---{1830}---}

An accidental but tremendous conflict took place in December, 1830, between a tiger and tigress, and a lion, in the menagerie of the Tower of London.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5AssXdZVr4kC&pg=PA293&dq=fight+in+the+tower+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=5AssXdZVr4kC&pg=PA293&dq=fight+in+the+tower+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zEgTUeXOAaf8iQKSioHoAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


{---A.D 20-220---}

Martials poem…

Heres what martial stated...
OV THl PimiJO 8H0W8. 18

A tigreaa that had been accoatomed to lick the hand of her
unanapeeting keeper, an animal rf rare beauty firom the Hy>
canian mountaina, being enraged, lacerated with maddened
tooth a fierce lion ; a atrange occurrence^ audi aa had neyer
been known in any ace. She attempted nothing of the aort
while ahe liyed in the depth of the foreata ; but aince she
baa been amongat ua, she haa acquired greater ferocity.

The rare-seen glory of th' Hyroanian land,

A ti^, wont to lick his msstet^s hand,

Inpteoes tore a lion in his rage ;

A thing not known before in any age.

He dnrst not this attempt in forests high :

Beasts among men learn greater emel^. Anon. 1096.  
http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt - http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt

and heres all the times people have quoted martial along with editing what his original poem from 1 account into always won...

[spoiler]
Martial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial

Marcus Valerius Martialis (known in English as Martial) (March 1, 40 AD – between 102 and 104 AD), was a Latin poet from Hispania (the Iberian Peninsula) best known for his twelve books of Epigrams, published in Rome between AD 86 and 103, during the reigns of the emperors Domitian, Nerva and Trajan. In these short, witty poems he cheerfully satirises city life and the scandalous activities of his acquaintances, and romanticises his provincial upbringing. He wrote a total of 1,561, of which 1,235 are in elegiac couplets. He is considered to be the creator of the modern epigram.
.


1.)

{2008}
A tiger kills a lion. Martial notes that the tiger would have never
http://www.google.com/search?q=gladiators+A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never+&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=gladiators+A+tiger+kills+a+lion.+Martial+notes+that+the+tiger+would+have+never+&tbm=bks&tbo=1

2.)

{1984}
Because mart (Martial) a tamed tiger killing a wild lion.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VKpErlYIEsUC&pg=PA379&dq=a+tamed+tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4KgIUcCiPKOriQKXjYHQDA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=VKpErlYIEsUC&pg=PA379&dq=a+tamed+tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4KgIUcCiPKOriQKXjYHQDA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

3.)

{1873}
In the time of the Emperor Titus, Tigers and Lions were forced to fight in the Amphitheatre at Rome, and it is recorded by Martial that the Tiger was able to kill the Lion, a fact which has been confirmed by accidental contests between these animals occurring in modern menageries.
http://books.google.com/books?id=OzMDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=Martial+tiger+kills+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=INVpUeqXCOWWiQKdg4DoBg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=OzMDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA392&dq=Martial+tiger+kills+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=INVpUeqXCOWWiQKdg4DoBg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

4.)

{1871}
Martial records that the tigers and lions fought, and that the tigers always beat the lions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T50EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=Martial+tiger+kills+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=INVpUeqXCOWWiQKdg4DoBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=T50EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=Martial+tiger+kills+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=INVpUeqXCOWWiQKdg4DoBg&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg

5.)
{1885}
To this may be added the testimony of Martial, from actual observation of the contests in the arenas, where the tigers always killed their antagonists, the lions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_g0AAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=Martial+also+states+that+the+tigers+always+killed+the+lions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ua4IUbeyA-_DiwLr84DgAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=_g0AAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=Martial+also+states+that+the+tigers+always+killed+the+lions&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ua4IUbeyA-_DiwLr84DgAg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

6.)
{1831}
In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots. Martial.
http://books.google.com/books?id=rCAAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA57&dq=martial+rome++++tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=stZpUcv3L4SGjAKwiYDIBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=rCAAAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA57&dq=martial+rome++++tiger+kills+a+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=stZpUcv3L4SGjAKwiYDIBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ


An it shows on further studys of the records of martial that the tiger killing a lion was more so a programed fight meaning staged for the tiger to have won via leverages like the movie gladiator…

http://books.google.com/books?id=BiXpAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=martial+tamed+tiger+killed++lion&source=bl&ots=-xGGfGTS-P&sig=FQZLiqcigXg3OxWvFk9s-ZU4Qvw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ohZmUPzVD6uujAL354HYDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=BiXpAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=martial+tamed+tiger+killed++lion&source=bl&ots=-xGGfGTS-P&sig=FQZLiqcigXg3OxWvFk9s-ZU4Qvw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ohZmUPzVD6uujAL354HYDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA [/spoiler]


So as you can see so far, there is only less then 20 indivdual cases where a tiger has killed a lion, and all except for baroda, has merits of being fair, almost all of them consist of being a tiger suprise/attacking a lion (who was not ready), which is a huge and disicive factor, male tigers killing female lions, adult tigers killing lion cubs, wild against captive raised, 2 on one which would be against what the wild would produce, and storys that with-held the esstentials, like ankara who dosent mention the details on the lions status...female/cub, but they will be patanted, and show everything about the article as time goes along.

Theme 2:


Heres all the fictional books, novels and using minor fights as death accounts…



{---{2005}---}

[size=24>Novel

Jim tullys "Novel" that he edited, saying a tiger named Ben the bengal killed two lions. lol
http://books.google.com/books?id=pltN_pWgXrcC&pg=PT171&dq=Jim+tully+circus+parade+tiger+lion+kill&hl=en&sa=X&ei=czqdUduHBofJiQLFi4GQCw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=pltN_pWgXrcC&pg=PT171&dq=Jim+tully+circus+parade+tiger+lion+kill&hl=en&sa=X&ei=czqdUduHBofJiQLFi4GQCw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Heres, the original (Novel) that mentiones no death, just another male tiger picking on a female lion...
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50810F9385C10738DDDAA0A94DA415B8784F0D3 - http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50810F9385C10738DDDAA0A94DA415B8784F0D3

{---{2004}---}

[size=24>Fiction
Count Belisarius and Lawrence of the Arabs
(The tiger always won)

It states right in the middle of the page in blue, Fiction.
http://books.google.com/books?id=crplAAAAMAAJ&q=count+belisarius+and+the+arabs+lions+tigers+always+won&dq=count+belisarius+and+the+arabs+lions+tigers+always+won&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TidUd7WK6rSiwLxuoCQDw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=crplAAAAMAAJ&q=count+belisarius+and+the+arabs+lions+tigers+always+won&dq=count+belisarius+and+the+arabs+lions+tigers+always+won&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3TidUd7WK6rSiwLxuoCQDw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

{---{1936}---}

Minor fights, and only captive disputes

More minor scruffles that only aided the ferocity that the tiger will defend him self as Kersi singh stated, its in the same bullshit conjunction as all the rest of the other cites alibies and sources that use the words "Always" or "invaribly" all of them have been proven un-reliable.
http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=clyde+beatty+that+looked+bad+for+the+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dEudUbCsGaKDiwLL0YEo&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=C9sDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=clyde+beatty+that+looked+bad+for+the+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dEudUbCsGaKDiwLL0YEo&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Because its same text or orginals so far show that they only mentioned one fight, and more so exploiting them when they use the words all the time or always won, would be border line lying because it can be disputed by the fact that lions won there own share (by documented occaisons even more), unless they are talking about a single pit fight that incorperated multile matches, then it cant be counted since theres nothing to back it up, no where in history has a tiger won flawlessly, we have others who claim that...the koreans, yet why did they then splice there videos, and pull out all the lions teeth and claws (rutinely) why does when they say tigers dominated everland, we have more gifs to videos highlighting just the opposite?

{---{1909}---}
Minor fights, and only captive disputes

The funny thing is, this article was coverd by numerous articles, and yet none of them mention the tiger killed the lion, only this one where the man gave his "opinion" that the lion might have to be put down
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jG-8pDqNTuQ/TbWXjOOdLZI/AAAAAAAAAOw/zfr6fk5qj3I/s1600/saddy.jpg - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jG-8pDqNTuQ/TbWXjOOdLZI/AAAAAAAAAOw/zfr6fk5qj3I/s1600/saddy.jpg

Like here...
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpeg/0ee26474461df44798f5334a6c1edb30ee521bb4.jpg - http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpeg/0ee26474461df44798f5334a6c1edb30ee521bb4.jpg
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpeg/1c616f431a4d935e426ac81f22155554f260f080.jpg - http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpeg/1c616f431a4d935e426ac81f22155554f260f080.jpg

yet whats funny is, they had to beat the lion off the tiger, in a top posistion like that, the lion would have sooner or later made his way to his throat...so in fact this account and roman proske's account aided the tiger, yet proske could have killed the lion reguardless if the tiger dident help a steel fork being rammed in any mammals eye could kill them.

{---{1831}---}

Minor fights, and only captive disputes
It dosent say anything about the tiger killing any lions, it s in the same gesture of kersi singh, these were most likely reserves like everland and as we see in everland its wrongly interperted by there fightingting styles that tiger is better because of his ferocity (which is only to protect) not to be mistaken with agression.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mb8BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA453&dq=british+officer+seirra+leone+lion+tiger+universal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aNabUfrRLOf7iwL9-YD4Dg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=Mb8BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA453&dq=british+officer+seirra+leone+lion+tiger+universal&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aNabUfrRLOf7iwL9-YD4Dg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Fake

Ha ha ha, this article is beyound fake, the fact that this photo already esisted (years) before this article came out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3P3sptnCUI - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3P3sptnCUI

Not to mention its only a fanatical made account by jackjacksonj, who only copyed/edited the incedent at the same place, same persons details who wrote this article...
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/01/117_36355.html - http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/01/117_36355.html

But whats the difference? Oh yeah, one is issued and published by multiple News stations, and one is only on a blog and fan made, and whats even more funny is when I get my email back an running I'll just email Kim rhan my self, and ask if she/he (the person who reported the lion killing the tiger) can confirm in screen saved testimonial that, that person who made that article should be sued for using his/her name (Jackjacksonj) and lying ...XD XD XD
Fake

Combined two different articles, one from edmonds menagerie and 1 from some random shit that stated a army fight where casualties went up to 50-60 here…that tiger did not win sixty battles, and the pic does not state he killed them. here is the  full quote;

Public Opinion: A Comprehensive Summary of the Press Throughout the World on ... - Page 760
1899

At least, fifty or sixty battles were fought victoriously by him with nearly as
many different seals who coveted his position ; and when the fighting season ...

and, here is the link, in case you don`t believe me;
http://books.google.com/books?um=1&spell=1&q=public+opinion%2C+at+least+fifty+or+sixty+battles+were+fought - http://books.google.com/books?um=1&spell=1&q=public+opinion%2C+at+least+fifty+or+sixty+battles+were+fought

You see ^^^ that’s how he merged 2 different article’s to make this…


That’s why after the word’s there are three dot’s like this  {…} showing they are not in the same article which this is the article he changed 1 account into 60 from, here


AHHHH AHHA HA HAH AHAH, thats 60 accounts gone in one post!

Lol this is from paul, aka p tigris the owner of Untamed yuku, this idiot has just used countless of other aliases/names to cater to his boy-friend jackjacksonj in spreading more lies…

Lies
"The lion and the tigress knew each other for a long time, but did not live in the same enclosure (today, most zoos and wildlife sanctuaries will try to avoid tiger/lion mating because the offspring is likely to suffer all sorts of health problems).
One day the tiger enclosure was being cleaned, and the female was released in the lion's enclosure just for a couple hours. As soon as she entered the enclosure, she attacked the lion by slapping his face with her paws and roaring. The lion fought back but within seconds the tigress managed to grab his head and immobilize him. Finally he escaped her grip and ran away. She didn't try to chase him; she just sat in the middle of the enclosure, watching her surroundings. The lion didn't move from the other side of the enclosure until she was taken back to her own. The lion was more than twice the size of the tigress, and yet, she won the fight."
From: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tigers-3675/Tiger-vs-Lion.htm - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tigers-3675/Tiger-vs-Lion.htm

And another one from the lieing bias loser Pauleta…l

Lies

The zookeepers got back with the fire extinguisher and seperated the animals back into their own enclosures after spraying them with carbon dioxide canister. Both animals were injured, but the lion got more injuries and had a large cut at the side of his face. Anyway, The fight took no more than 5 minutes."
From: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tigers-3675/big-cats-2.htm - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Tigers-3675/big-cats-2.htm

He says he dosent want to specify there…

-Names
-Locations
-Dates

Ect because he cant, he dream’t it all up, he manifested it out of his bias slop of crap he calls brain. If I truely saw a tiger kill a lion with my own two eyes right in front of me, that would be my lead intro account every f**king time, but the fact that Paul never brings these up (in detail) when hes on yuku...shows that to him its not as important because he made up, I would slam that accounts with photos all day every day if I seen a occaison myself, yet being that its fake and a lie from the butt-hurt bias loser, he never brings it up. lol

Opinions
Richard Perry mentions that “under artificial conditions of captivity, a tiger can always kill a lion…… Tigers are undoubtedly more aggressive than lions, and intolerant of rivals in their territories; and in hybrids between the two the tiger parent is dominant.” Also, for the beasts in the wild, he mentions of another lion being killed probably by tiger “roaring of African lions in enclosures in Gwalior appeared to attract the wild resident tigers, and one released lion was almost certainly killed by them.” (Page 165, Ref. 16)  [INDRAJIT.WORDPRESS.COM/BIGCATS]

Nothing but a opinion, the was no direct evidence stated by the tiger man kailash shankala…
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics057-1.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics057-1.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics030-1.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics030-1.jpg
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics031-2.jpg - http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/JinenFordragon/boldchamppics031-2.jpg

Not to mention that there are countless of books that stated most of the lions were shot by locals, and the others most likely starved being they were raised in capt


I have started it off with the basics, I'll paten the list next time... and add in the 6 others later, but as you can see, wheres the 367 they said they had, at the end of me exploiting these f**king waps, we will see just how much isint the list, look at it so far, thats less then 20 occaisons ha ha hahaha...

So basicaly, if I was to format all the times the tiger has killed the lion in terms reffernces of chronological order like how it would suppose to be in a book form abstract…it would look and amount up to exactly this…

1.) (2010) Ankara: Tiger kills lion
2.) (2007) John varty: Male tiger kills female lion
3.) (2005) Impulse archology: Tiger always wins
4.) (1965) News article: Tiger kills two lions
5.) (1956) Roman proske: Tiger kills lion
6.) (1953) Italy: Tiger kills lioness
7.) (1945) Bangalore, Mysore: Male tiger kills lioness
8.) (1914) Bronx zoo: Tiger kills 2 year old lion
9.) (1902) Perth: Male tiger kills female lion
10.) (1899) Baroda: Tiger kills male lion
11.) (1891) Calcutta: Tiger kills lioness
12.) (Circa 1840-60’s) Edmonds menagrie: Tigress kills male lion
13.) (1857) Bromwich zoo: Tiger kills male lion
14.) (A.D 20-200) Rome, Martial poem: Tigris kills male lion

I do know about 6 more that I will add in later when I re-find there links, but take a younder at this list, look how patheticly small it is when you take out all the repeats, novels, fictional books and occaisions where a tiger and lion dident even kill each other...compared to jackjacksonj and Indragits site who combined, wanted people to belive there was over 400 accounts of a tiger killing a lion HA HAHA HAHA, that means 30-400=370 WOW! HOLY SHIT! They lied on 370 accounts, which all there site consist of, are male tigers killing more female lions than anything, that means if we was to play the game all the times a tiger has killed a male lion in a fair fight, out of this list above, there would only be one...(Baroda) all the rest are of cubs, females, suprise attacks an so on, XD XD Thats hilarious, so since I know only around a few more, its safe to say all the web has to offer or is out there on the internet via books, articles and so on...more specificaly how much is.... "on hand" alltogether theres just...


Less then 30 accounts of a tiger killing a lion

Even clyde beatty, one man, one alibie, has had more occaisions of a lion killing a tiger (individualy) more than all of history has to offer of the opposite via vice versa, yet clyde is only 1 source, there are countless of other sources of lions killing tigers. lol


I started off as a fan, (of both) so it was very hard for me being I had to often pick a side...until...I noticed that 90% of the web has sites like jackjacksonj and indragits all catering to the tiger, but not highlighting things for the lion in fact often stated that any evidence that favors the lion is in non-existant. lol Right off the back I knew that couldent be true and they wernt fans but just fanatics, that is why if you look at all the posters who are nutruel like...Leofwin, Dalen, Bold champ, Kaos, Me/Prime, Peter, apollyon and a few others, we all can shell out more information than fanatics and fans because they will waste there times arguing on something thats not substantial enough to prove the ultimate answer, in other words they are willing to back up/hold onto a lie forever, while all the nutruels really want, is to find out the truth.

And again, for us, its quite easy to dis-reguard a account or faulty presenting/findings as you all may or may have not noticed, my data has been in a constant state of evolving, I learn, I adapt, I become stronger, I present only things that has credability and substance, I am no where near finished, and I am sure there are a few faulty things that could as well may be spliced, and or not reliable in my collection so far, that is why I asked many people before on the yuku boards if they see any thing not true, or sketchy, or not sufficent enough to be accurate or true, to tell me, and after a rational disscusion I will edit out and remove it from my list. In fact I have "recently taken out almost 20 sources and links upoun all the catagories and I gotta say its lookin pretty good...my next analysis is the romans mentioning of Hnnrk, it seems to be almost word for word, so it could be a borrowing of one mans quota, but yet, what I understand so far is that it was a historian confrence that had alot of people speculating at a university, so when I get my email back up and running I will email them and and ask if it was different people with there own observation of historical records, or if its one quota being used multiple times like the martial poem, if it is, then I will only use one and take out the other 2.

But we'll see as time goes along everybody, its just begun, I will eventually run into more of the nutruel siders (old and new) and we will grow the list properly. So at the end of the day, just be true to the truth, even if it means a little sacrafice of what you initialy wanted, because as they said, the final truth will set you free.

Alohas everybody. ^_^

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: SuryaVajra
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2013 at 06:42
I haven't done much scientific inquiry into this interesting topic, but I would  throw in a few points of note.

1. Tigers and Lions coexist in India though they haven't met face to face since the British nearly wiped out Lions. Lions despite living in social groups failed to competitively exclude the solitary tigers. In other words, despite numerical advantage, Indian lions failed to check the tigers growth. Rather the lions progressively decreased.Even in hunting the tigers were chosen and we have no evidence that lions were preferred for hunted by Bharatha Kings. So the tiger, despite all odds, survived and proliferated.

2. A single Lion never attacks the African buffalo.Solitary Indian Tigers are known to attack and kill the more dangerous Indian water buffalo--dangerous because they have more deadly horns--and the Beautiful Wild Gaur( beauty does not belie any softness)

Wild African Buffalo
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Serengeti_Bueffel1.jpg/220px-Serengeti_Bueffel1.jpg


Indian water buffalo
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/yogeshsmore/yogeshsmore1206/yogeshsmore120603532/13987854-water-buffalo-bubalus-bubalis-is-drinking-water-shiroli-roha-alibaug-maharashtra-india.jpg

Wild Indian Gaur
http://beastcraft.wdfiles.com/local--files/feral-and-wild-bovine/JMN_Curled_Horn_Bovine.JPG


Tigers even dare leap on top of and attack Elephants and irritate Rhinos, though success stories are very rare especially with Rhinos. Only the babies of the latter are potential meat for both Tigers and lions. 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yNMIPbHcVKU/SluLIK_NXrI/AAAAAAAAC-8/vPtkJ-aFAHk/s400/tiger+wooped+that+butt+for+sure+dead.jpg

However, the African elephants are larger and this must also be considered.

So I would say an alpha lion and an alpha tiger,if they face off, I would bet my sisters jewellery on the tiger.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2013 at 20:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo4cGB0U4iQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo4cGB0U4iQ
http://i55.tinypic.com/142hrb4.jpg - http://i55.tinypic.com/142hrb4.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-53xIYjkt_Po/ToRm4r3o_iI/AAAAAAAAC6A/x4eCZQYwljw/s1600/sept2011_1272.JPG - http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-53xIYjkt_Po/ToRm4r3o_iI/AAAAAAAAC6A/x4eCZQYwljw/s1600/sept2011_1272.JPG
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_--uX6KPhHpQ/TRXAXC87q1I/AAAAAAAAAiY/hwEoezMD7mg/s1600/Kill.4.jpg - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_--uX6KPhHpQ/TRXAXC87q1I/AAAAAAAAAiY/hwEoezMD7mg/s1600/Kill.4.jpg
http://www.leopardhills.com/blog/media/22/Lion_and_Buffalo.jpg - http://www.leopardhills.com/blog/media/22/Lion_and_Buffalo.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYaLvI36kEk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYaLvI36kEk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoENHiZnIsc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoENHiZnIsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8DeJGfZnRk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8DeJGfZnRk

Maybe you ought to do a little more research before any more elusive or ignorant claims come patruding out. I really cant belive any one of this generation can harvey two face the situation... but, since it is what it is, I guess I'll rectifie the situation.

1. There isint any substantial hunting feats to go by for the tiger, because you cant even show 10 videos of a tiger killing a adult guar, I have seen the predation list of numerous censuses, and they all emit the same data, that they target calfs, juvis, and weak sickly adults, its beyound rare to come by even carrion, which would mean the feat of the fight is not actualy a fight at all since any animal can eat carrion even a 20 pound fox can be seen eating a dead bull guar. Not to mention there are over 10 sources on google books and newspaper archives Indian or english, that showed a Guar decimating a tiger in a pit fight (Rutinely).

2. There is no animal on earth, that can match the killing feats of the lion due to there social living patterns, Hyenas and wolves have higher numbers out-numbering lions almost 4 to 1; but still to this day, you never hear about them taking down or even attempting animals such as Rhinos; Giraffes, Hippos and the all powerful Elaphant, which there are by far more attmepts documented by even solitary rouge or nomad lions, then any tiger census I have ever seen...
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-30.php - http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-30.php

Now going back to the word ignorant, I mean no disrespect, the word just means you are un-educated in that topic/subject...so by you saying or making a coy remark via even the lions numbers dident keep the tiger in check, is really a understatement and a complete lack of knowledge on subject, in fact there were 4 historical documentations of wild encounters, 3; 1 on 1's where the asiatic lion (leo persica) had stalemated the bengal tiger, and one ocaison in Velar where a lion killed the tiger near the ganges river...they were all one on ones, not coaltions, or groups, teams or prides, but just a single smaller, weaker more feeble lion then the african lion out of the two sub-speices...who took on argue-ably the biggest, strongest and most powerfulest of the 19th century worth of tigers the Bengal, being that the siberians weights and size had dwindled, the bengal is either a stale mate or possibly by ratio of weight a bit larger; and to have those scenarios played off the way it did, makes me dought the fighting capabilitys of the tiger even more, since there isint even one occaision of vice versa via (wild vs wild), not to mention if the most biggest and baddest of now days the bengal lost to the smaller end the asatic lion, I'd like your most honest opinion of the other 8 Sub-speices still living in either captivity and or wild, you do know just picking a bengal and or siberian out of the lot makes you look extremely bias right? It seems you cant or are just elduing the fact that the only way you can pull off a opinated win, is if you pick basicaly 10% of the subspices ratio aka (cherry picking) and ignore and if not degrade the tiger by not backing him up statiscaly and properly.

You do know, tigers as in Pathera Tigris, is 55 pounds lighter as a whole speices than Panthera leo...right? And they range from 50-250 pounds heavier then tigers in comparing all lines of sub-speices, so in terms waging power, size, durability all in one nut shell; because of the lion being able to become more larger on average, by weight alone, and comparing them in mass by the over all verdict, lions are larger by mass at the numbers of 30-55% due to his mane...on average. Not to mention lions can reach any weight the heavy obese end the tiger has. Not to mention that majority of the tiger speices average the same weights as a Jaguar...so you must take all the averages divide them and the sum will have Felis tigris as a speices of onlt 160 Kg possibly lighter in the 130-150 Kg range with all the newer information I keep finding, that would put there averages almst at half the weights of the average lion as a whol speices, if we include all the weights of wild and captive of both speices, since lions can reach heavier weights averagely or more frequent in captivity at a 100-200 pound advantage or leverage over even siberian and bengal, which in this case...i have the neccisary data to prove it. As for now, the records still remain questionable of who is the largest cat "speices" excluding ligers. It seems lions in the mass department takes the gold, and could as well in the weight department in further studys as well, debunking of tiger experts like mazak who stated all those un-reliable weights were over exagerated by tiger hunters, and none can be verifyied or reliable.

Keeping all degrading any animal aside (which is what you're doing) the facts is lions were hunted to near extinction in india, there was no animal easyer to hunt then the lion because of there choosing/placements to live....In the open, while tigers more in denser parts of jungles, where the calvery cant reach in quanity to hunt, this is proven alone by how much documentry is on lions even by site seer's and tourist of africa in compared to Indias tigers, lions just waltz up to tourist cars daily even hourly with more of curiosty and or bravery, while it would be hard press to see a tiger by car. In fact, I've read over 10 books that state the main reason of the lions down fall and eradictaion through thropy hunting was due to there social patterns, Quoteing "I've seen 22 lions in the bush and could have poped all of them at once" that means 22 gone instantly, while for tigers you would need to chase them down 1 at a time. Do the math.

I go by factual statistics, by catagorie of all, but more so people tend to want to just see, who actualy was documented winning more as in (Accounts)...well, I've just proven in a earlyer post, that there is only 15 accounts or so "On Hand" to go by through out history where a tiger has won, and only one of those fights was fair...Baroda...still not a wild one, so in actual there is no way to give a tiger a leverage because every thing is purely on assumption which leads to bias tendancys; which in verse leads to exactly what you did, and what every one who is bias usualy does, they highlight the statistics of a catagorie that shows the high end feat, (with nothing to back it up) and shows or lies that the latter has no feats to go by, in your case you claimed lions "Never" I repeat the word...Never, lol thats a croc of $$$$ If I ever heard one, you must be illy bias if you deny simple predation site's or censuses to even videos, not to mention bring any substantial evidence to back up your own claims, you know...proof? One ocaision is not the universal answer or the normal occurance, you cant even bring 100 ocaisions (which is pety numbers) to work with in decideing a preadtion re-acuring probability of Tigers hunt Bull guar in there peak physical conditions...I'd like to just see 1 male being atempted in open grounds.

But back to the account's...lions have killed the tiger over 100 times, just like the tigers most are not or do not sepcify the required credentials of being equal combatants, but since the tiger has less then 20 cases and the lion over a 100; that means the lion won 5x more than tigers, if we go by that alone, then its a shut book, end of story, and to top it off, the asian lion killed the bengal in the wild, 1 on 1, not the african who is more powerful, larger, a better fighter, and all the superior, so its too far 1 sided to make a claim anything more than a 50/50, for the tiger, and thats being generous...but of course more data on hand will be needed to make this debate conclusive...so I guess, being fair and unbias for now, 50/50 is where it should stay, saying anything higher for the tiger with such little anything to back it up, is just absered, ridiculous and making a judgement call on that is just laughable.

Trying to dispute old records is can be taken into consideration when properly analyzed, but just because its an old record dosent mean you have the means to dispute it, since everything of the 20th century goes by writings of B.C times, Science such as Newtons law are all still in non-disputable means, so unless you have some records of a wild tiger the victor of a wild lion, then you have no cause to make any claim other than a Bias opinion that stems from bias intentions and bias presentings.

If you wanna know the basics of whats on hand, in means of what you must counter and or match, I suggest you read this site, from page one to finish, to see what you need to get out of the red, and just be on equal grounds in terms data, information via basics to set in motion a educated opinion...

http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-0.php - http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-0.php




-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2013 at 16:01
Female Lion vs Male Tiger

I figure I transfer a intresting note, in replying to the people who bousted out that the male tiger is so superior to the lion they emit that even a female tiger is above the male lion lol...

Size comparisons with the Bengali vs the Africano
Heres at Sedona wild life park, a Female lion next to a adult male white bengal tiger:


Same size anyone? lol The male tigers skull only looks bigger because it has 2-5 inches of tufts of hair like the mutton chop, we all know by skull studies that the lions skull is larger, longer and wider on average. An you can check out the rest of the photos of lionesses taller and larger than tigers on page 1.
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-0.php - http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0-asc-0.php

The lioness is the sole hunter of the Pride, lets set the record straight, we hear all day long that lions are inferior to tigers because they "Need” the pride to kill or fight, first of all; they live socialy as family members, so basicaly you are telling me, if you were chillin at your home, and some random crazed looney came trampling in your house and threaten'd you and your family; went straight up to your sister, anty mom or what ever and started wrestling you would just yawn and let the fight continue, or would you all instantly look at all your brothers, uncles, cousins and what not the 1 femto-second-look; thought process of dog-pileing the f**k and King-Konging him all over the place?

Yeah I thought so, so stop with the charade that lions 'Need” the pride, they don’t need shit, they can do all what they have accomplished with or without the aid of there Family members, just because the tiger cant and dosent have that luxery dosent make it a i-ll handicap or default need to be the standard, speaking of which, the whole power fued is just hilariously out-dated, the lioness can single handedly bring down animals that’s 6 x her own weight and size…



Lets get down to the Brass Kahones, Lionesses are indeed smaller, weaker, and inferior in the over all statistics to the Male lion, so it is only a no brainer that a female lion is in the same terms with tigers in general or atleast the the bengals, Indo-chinese, south china and Siberians, Males of course…but then what would that say if the female lion won? Hmmm, sounds all to familiar, its because the lioness is prone to sociality, she will have just as much game and fighting expertese as the male, because some times the boot is on the other foot, and it is the females that are the ones fighting for mating rights of the males…makes sense right? Average pride 2 males 8 females, the females want dibs too in mating times, that’s why they fight more than any solitary tiger male or female would.

Lets count them down; real occaisions where a female lion had bested, beat up, submitted, and or killed a tiger female and of course male…

1.)The mengerine…Lions will not stay in the same cage with tigers. We tried this once, putting a lioness in with a Bengal tiger. There was a fierce fight and the lioness nearly killed the Bengal."
Chapter V11
http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm - http://www.circushistory.org/History/OnRoad2.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=lltOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=There+was+a+fierce+fight+and+the+lioness+nearly+killed+the+Bengal.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZwpUbXBNuaxigLvtYGwBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=lltOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA108&dq=There+was+a+fierce+fight+and+the+lioness+nearly+killed+the+Bengal.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_ZwpUbXBNuaxigLvtYGwBw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

2.) Female lion Harasses and submits much larger male tiger out of her area:


3.) Calcutta zooligical garden’s a lioness kills a male tiger (New’s article)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25 - http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=GRA18960323.2.25

4.) Lioness submits much larger male tiger, chases him down and humilates him in front of Korean audience:


5.) Can tigers damp the lionesses courage? Nope:


6.) More of the female lions superior fight capabilitys against the tigers…




And we all remember the famous lioness from the movie born free, that showed tremendous heart and had to battle her way into a wild pride in order to be free an accepted in the wild and survive, so far only lions have records of captive states being able to hold grounds with there wild counter parts…







Tigers? Nope, two wild tigers male and female did medicore against a captive lion in the tower of london, and when the bout was 1 on 1 the male tiger had the worst of it being out gamed and having his fang broken.

Lol So I guess with the right anologys, even the female lion can be said to be Superior to the male tiger, being that the tides are more frequently turned when the fight is fair, in other words…

-If the fight is openly fair, both willing the female lion will have more than a chance.
-The lioness is superior to the male tiger because she has the back of her gals.
-The female lion has more fighting experince then the male tiger.
-The female lion is more brave has more courage and is more agressive then the male tiger.
-The female lion is on average larger than 60% of the tiger sub-species male and female.

lol The lioness would decimate a sumatran, bali or javan tiger; being that she is twice the weight of even the males on average, that means, twice the power, twice the size, twice the durability 2x of everything, of majority of the tiger speices, the records show even Bengals; arguebly one, if not the biggest tiger sub-pecies by percent of there population of the 20th century... have fell to the supreme prowess of the mighty title of the Lioness. Looks like its going down hill fast, because I found out just recently in fact just today; that John varty's lioness had a red flag attached to the fight, when I mean red flag, i mean possibly the most un-fair fight in all of history, yes many have always thought in some fights; when the one they chose to win, loses...thinks that maybe the lion/tiger was drugged/darted with some anestitics or poisons or any time of drug that was ment to imobalize and put to sleep the animal, but we now have proof that the lioness savanah was in fact darted from the horses mouth, John varty himself stated it on his site...here...
[/url]http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm[/url]

Huh! All the accounts of tigers winning are by sabatoge even the females, the only account that had seemed to be fair was baroda, not one of the 13 on hand are fair, they all consist of male tigers killing lion cubs, old sickly lions said so in the exact same text, 2 wild speicimens on 1 captive raised, and the rest of male tigers killing by ambush and or staged/druged lionesses...Pathetic!

Yet they still try'd to hide the fact, in what we can see now that even the lioness is superior to the male tiger in multiple catagories.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2013 at 20:46
Just up-dated and added in alot of new stuff here:

http:///www.teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0.php - http:///www.teamauthority.myfastforum.org/ftopic623-0.php

1.)
Page one has more of an aray of weights exploiting that the largest of the breeds Bengals and Siberians only average 420 pounds (315-600), basically identical to the lions overall averages as well, along with over a 100 years worth of photos (over 50 individual cases) covering each decade having a photograph (Visual evidence) showing a lion and tiger next to the other; showing that lions are the largest in size, ranging from 1-2 feet taller in height, and 2x larger in size. It also shows that as a species of felidae's, Leo is larger than Tigris by 55 pounds on average when including every weight figure from every sub-sepcies, from equal weights of the larger tigers Bengals, Caspians and Amurs...to heavier weights that can range from 50-200 pounds more of tigers like the Bali, Javan, Indo-chinese, South china and sumatran. While the lion sub-species don't really fluctuate as much an stays around its normal averages of 300-600 lbs as a species.

These are important to know, and should be considered when comparing them, since majority of tiger fans pro data consist of cherry picking, when analyzing the entire records we can now see that overall the lion is larger in almost every catagorie, since the way tiger fanatics be deceptive is by cherry picking anything that allows them to say the tiger is bigger...like...

Just using Bengals and Siberians and ignoring the other 7 subspecies that make up the majority of its numbers historically...if that fails these same fanatics will target the smallest weights by selectively picking regions of small lions and use districts that house the largest of bengals and ignore the fact that when both show the smallest regions Bengals and africans are similar, when the largest is high-lighted, yet again they are similar, fluctuations are never consistant...and if that dosen't work these die hard deceptive lion haters will just pick indivdual cases of obese numbers, like Jaipur the tiger that fluctuated from 930 pounds to 1025, just to impliment that tigers are the largest, yet fail to realize or just want to except, that there are more than 10 cases where there were 900-1,000 pound lions like Sultan, and since lions/tigers can eat up to 20% of there weight, any of those large lions on a full stomach could have out weighed jaipur at any givin time...thats how identical there sizes are. So in reality, tigers and lions are basically at a stand off in weight, but there are many other implimations in comparing them, an majority of the ways to examine their ranges, the lion in general will come out the larger cat more often in inividual weights and a full grown battle maned lion will look larger tahn any siberian tiger no matter what in terms size, compliments of the lions mane.



2.)
Page two shows important factors like, fighting experince how they accumilate them, both their techniques and leverages in how they use them to there advantages; also some of there draw backs as well. It also goes into alot of creditable sources on what most tiger fanatics main focus on trying to dispute, which is the lions mane, I provided countless of not only iron clad proof from experts on hand such as biologist, zoologist, owners and eye witnesses, but video proof as well showing evidence that the mane protects the lion aginst the tigers claws and fangs.   

3.)
Page three, consist of feats; experts opinions an historical distribution; since every ignorant person starts off with lions never lived in the jungle, all the experts favor tiger and male lions dont hunt, lions only kill smaller animals in comparison to tigers ect...I provided countless sources of lions living in indias jungles, over 40 animal experts range'd from Zoologist, Physicologist, Biologist, Trainers, Owners, from circus an zoo folks to owners and eyewitnesses and showed videos an abstracts of african lions single handedly an through coop'; taking out some of the largest animals on the planet such as Buffalo, Giraffes, Hippos, Rhinos and Elephants.

4.)
Page four, highlights over 120 cases through out history where a lion has killed a tiger, along with histroical documentation of each continent that had lions and tigers as part as there cultures past records either from importing them or being indigedous, places an cultures such as India, Romans, Italians, Germans, British, Chinese, Japanese, and more...also a tribute to what a real historical find is suppose to look like...over 90 historical artifacts and counting, portraying a fight between a lion and tiger.

I specifically enjoy the historical artifacts and chose that catagorie over others such as weight/size, abstract accounts, sociality/mental behaviors, statistics ect ect...because...all that I have just mentioned has been faked, edited, can be manipulated and deceptive, jackjacksonj and indragit is living proof of that, since they have repeated single occaisons an made them out to be over 300 accounts, they have used unreliable data an abused the word science with using proffesors like Haughton as creditable; yet his presentings are beyound fictional since he mentions 18 foot long tigers, complete lies just to act as if the tiger is that much larger by 8 feet, they have faked articles that me and alot of others have shown proof in how they did it with the actual evidence, cherry picked weights and made phoney size comparisons, and to top it off, what most modern day people of the 20th century take as the highest creditable means of...videos; have been cut and edited, lied on and maipulated, like the Big cage fight where they stated it was a sumatran female who killed a numbian lion, lol yeah thats why Clyde beattys book it mentions that the tiger was a bengal and was male named bobby not to metion it wasn't the lion that died, but two tigers were killed by the lion Ha ha ha ha, they have done it to countless of other movies and documentarys...buuuuut, they can't do it to historical artifacts...or atleast get away with it; even in short term examinations.

Why? Because articles are usually typed out, so anyone could photo shop one now days an write there own storys, but now that me and alot of others interested in the truth will start to present things that needs its root source to fact check(I will eventually get everythings root refference)...even more so there list will shrink...but anyway; yeah, videos can be edited an cut, accounts of articles can be faked, books and sources can be manipulated an repeated to act like its different occaisons an be fictional books, but artifacts such as...

-Paintings
-Etches
-Raphsodys
-Antiques
-Statues
-Engravings
-Mosiacs


an more...cannot not be fully faked, I knew that was the ticket in exploiting Paul and his husband jackjacksonj aka Kingtheropod an his 200 aliases he hides behind, since on our encounter in the Yuku boards, he tryed to yet agian hide everything by using quanity of his fakes and repeats, yet when it came to increasing his usual charade of matching our facts with his made up delusions, he couldnt do it with the artifacts...and what was funny was he even tryed too...his pathetic efforts lead him to posting over 30 paintings that had no fights between a lion an tiger in it...Ha ha ha haaa ha ha An the little that did, like the tiger and lion biting each other...he hid its link because it was for a base ball team, if you didn't like the out come of who won, you could flip it upside down an it will show the opposite winning XD XD, There ain't even 15 historical artifacts of tigers winning, while theres over 90 of lions winning an still growing...I will later work on getting all there back storys and links, since theres nothing to hide, his sad attempts to refute them an then say hes exposed people is just pathetic, hes just mad since theres more of the opposite an twisting what is evidently of historical signifance, he can cry an cry an cry that some are fables, some are in eras of war, but the facts remain, they have historical credability, not even a historian or scientist can dub them 100% false since both those titles are flawed as well, science is never 100% true, since at one time all scientist thought the world was flat...there are millions of things that scientist are wrong about, its just another form of questioning it to get a mutaual an patented agreement. He cant say lies an fake, since not one of us like Bold champ, leofwin, lioness 2008 an the others have ever once intentionally faked an edited any content, we only provide things as is an debate about it, if its not reliable we disregard it...simple as that...but jackjacksonj them? lol They have faked over 300 individual documents...I will never accept anything he presents ever again...who the f**k would? I will look up its credability from its root source first.

In fact the rest of the team authority site although pitching in little here an there of newer things, the rest of it is dedicated to exploiting an exposing the lieing trash from the lion hating Kingtheropod an his boy friends like Paul, perault, prathap an others. Jackjacksonj is a peice of shit loser, he will say anything to refute something, yet we all know his intentions already, since he was the very first back in 2006, 7 years ago that made his sack of shit lieing site on freewebs .com, he knows he's a lieing peice of shit an paved the road to confirming that the lion is superior to the tiger in fighting an killing the other...or why else would he have faked an repeated 3 main sources an content over 367 times to act like he had that much? Huh! Because he knows...he'd say anything at this point, like how he tryed to say he exposed my artifacts I accumilated, by saying the same thing oveer an over that they were all British....that they were all for the wars, that they were all propaganda, XD XD XD XD Yeah, then slowly I started presenting the links of the artifacts he already wrote over saying fake, lies, FAKE, LIES, FAAAKKKE, LIIIES!!!

XD XD XD XD XD

Yeah thats why when he wrote British on all of them...yet I showed 80% of them wern't british; they consisted of either people that were native to that origin, or had degrees in being able to opinionate on subject, like Historians, Theologians, Archaeologist, an more...an thats why he wont ever put his list in chronology, because hes a scared bitch...he cant catagorize them in order, present there full abstract, put them in chronological order, or be anything that falls in line with the word truthful. Pathetic.




But anyways, a little later I'll add more to the forever growing list and paten more of its content. Be honest to thy self, an the truth will set you free.

Alohas ^_^

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 02-Oct-2013 at 10:10
I have been following this thread for some time, just never had the chance to add or comment. A few posts back you mentioned the weight of a Tiger, on average. 
The 800+ lbs wiki lists is way out.  Hogzilla, a wild boar-hog hybrid, shot in Georgia a few years back weighed in at close to a thousand lbs. But was a huge animal, 8-9 ft long.  It's head was massive.  I've never seen ref. to either Tiger or lion getting that size.
 
Your refs. to Clyde Beatty is interesting.  Hunt Bros. Circus had their winter quarters here in Florence NJ, about 20 miles from my home. In the late 60's the Beatty Cole Bros. circus wintered their big cats at the Hunt Compound.
I was in the office of our local Veterinarian,  Samuel Longer, VMD. when he got an emergency call from the Hunt compound.  2 Tigers[don't know what spec.] got into it and both were in bad shape.
Their own Vet. was in the hospital and they needed a Vet right away.  The look on Sam's face was priceless.Big smile [All of this happened circa 1968] He was strictly a small animal man.  He would treat our dogs and cats, but we had another Vet for the Horses.  With the eagerness of youth, and not being smart enough to know better,Wink I volunteered to go with him and assist.  His reply questioned my sanity and he refd. them to a Vet affiliated with the Phila Zoo.
 
  


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2013 at 19:43
lol

Yeah, I found alot of information on weights and put it in that link above on the tiger and lion (Speices). Lions are the largest living cat speices in terms size, they are also on average the heaviest big cat on average, since the historical weights of atleast the past 2 centurys has it as the:

-South china
-Bengal
-Javan
-Caspian
-Indnonisian
-Malayin
-Sumatran
-Siberian
-Bali

All combined into an average of 350 pounds (historically) 320 pounds (Current) Ranging from 200 lbs(Bali)--470 lbs{Amur) fluctuations as high end average at 600lbs only for 3/9subspeices reaching the 600 pounds, as larger ones of 700 pounds and up are the exceptional, while some are estimated heavier, the rest of the 6/9 subspeices are quite small, some can rival the asiatic lion and some are no bigger than a large dog.

As for lions, further studys show the intial 7 sub-speices has been Dna tested an showed there is no difference amoungs most of the african south, east, and west hemisphere -Genetically- so they are branched in as one sub-species, either leo serengetii or leo krugeri. the true sub-species of lions are...

-Asiatic
-African
-Sub'Saharan/Barbary

A combined weight of an average of 420 pounds (Historically) 400 pounds (current). Since unlike the tiger, the lion has a base point, the smallest of lions were of 350 lbs(Asiatic)-500 lbs(Barbary), fluctuating on the high end averages of north african lions were of 600 pounds as well, 700 pounds and up are the exceptional, as in the live stock keepers book heavier than 750 pound lions have been estimated...but of course thats not the norm atleast for in the wild.

So on average terms the the genus species of pathera leo (Lions) of current is roughly around 80 pounds heavier than the genus speices of Pathera Tigris (Tigers), if we compare via cherry picking sub-species, then lions are heavier than 6/9 of tiger speices fluctuating on the basis of 100-300 pounds, while the 3/9 of tiger subspeices are heavier than 1/3rd of asiatic lion sub-speices on a basis of 50-100 pounds and are basically bengals, siberians and Hycranians tigers are at a fluctuating pount of parity with the african and barbary lion. Overall the lion is some what alot heavier on its speices terms, and thats only on mass/weight.

The lion is the heaviest living cat speices on average in the wild

We also compare the statistics in terms whos larger in many other catagories, not only by mass, but by size, common notes have the tiger slightly longer, some reseacrh being done of current by collecting data by two enthusiast Bold champ and leofwin so far indicates that bengal and siberian tigers the largest existing wild breed of tigers, are not at all longer but the same length as lions, more will be needed to confirm this, but if that is true, then atleast a logical implimation can be said that on average the lion could be longer, since majority of the other sub-species of tigers length measurments would be in conjunction much shorter and have smaller figures, lowering the speices averaged to being less of that of the lion who doesnt really have big gaps in there size ranges. But the lion is in fact the tallest living cat species on majority of the cases that range from 1 through almost two feet taller than the average tiger from smallest wild one (Sumatran) to largest wild ones (Siberians)...it is confirmed with book abstract measurements from biologist, zoologist and natraulist...also from 10 decades of photo (visual comparisons) with a consistantcy of lions being much, much taller at the shoulder and head region.

The lion is the tallest living cat speices

Followed by what we see with our own two eyes, it is undiniable, undisputebale that lions are the largest in visual size/mass in what we see with our own two eyes, from a anatomy/ornament of the body...'His mane' increases his size by 20%(Standard mane covering only the head, neck and throat area) on average and 50%(Barbary mane that covers farther down the shoulder region and extends to the belly) at max, so comparing sizes of the two speices lions, will be visually look larger than tigers such as the sumatran, malay, bali ect...by the means of 50-80% and larger in size to the siberian, bengal and caspian by means of 20-50%...on overall averages since already the mass/weight of lions are heavier which would mean the lion would look both taller and heavier even if he dient have a mane, but the mane will make the average lion look around 45% larger than the average tiger, fluctuating size differentials of the msaller end, a bali tiger would look 2/6th's the size of a average lion, while at the higher end of siberians would look 4/6ths the size of a barbary-like maned lion.

Lions are the largest big cat speices in size

At max, the record holders in captivity is "Gueiness book holder" Jaipur the siberian tiger, owned by Joan .M his weight fluctation figures was 930 lbs-1025 lbs at peak, followed by an aray of other 800-900 pound (unconfirmed) tigers such as Thor, gengis, and Saber... the heaviest lion on record is Sultan the african lion, owned by "Awarded circus performing trainer Frits' Swede' Johnson "saint petersberg times newspaper archive" (1962) fluctuation figures 900 lbs-1,000 lbs at peak, followed by an array of (confirmed) lions that were in the 800-900 braket, such as Woody the 800 pound lion owned previously be the hells angel biker gang, confiscated and living in a animal sanctuary, Rutledge the 806 pound lion, oaklawn animal sanctuary (Geuniss book holder), Simba the lion colchester zoo england at 826 pounds, lion named Rhino' 850 pounds Tx's animal preservation weighed confirmed by zoo keeper gabe, ethopian Court housed a 900 pound lion, Kingsbridge also held a 900 pound lion along with another 900 pound goliath named Ali, theres also two 950 pound lions on youtube, yet to be confirmed via weighed, along with a hand full of other 800-900 pound lions. That being said, the largest tiger out weighed the largest lion by 0.25% 25 pounds, but on the accord of stomach content, since lions/tigers can eat 20% of there intial weight/mass, I sultan on any given day of a hefty meal could have out weighed Jaipur. Although Jaipur outweighed Sultan by a mere 25 pounds, Sultan had a Barbary like mane, so his size was increased by 50%, so if we could have seen Jaipur standing flush next to Sultan....Sultan would have looked much larger in size compared to Jaipur, both taller and larger in size, making J' 4/6ths the size of S' not to mention lions have more muscle mass, since siberian tigers need more fat storage to survive artic weather of snowy terrains, on a base tigers have around 15% more fat than lions, while lions comprimises with there extreme heat (Africa one of the hottest places on earth) shedding of exsis fat, makes lions have more muscle due to there sauna like enviorment.

Lions are the largest big cat in terms muscle mass

It is being further understood that lions could have been the larger cat from the start, since...

1.) Weighing lions will differ substantially and drastically because of their social patterns, unlike all other big cats who are mainly solitary, the lion must share his food consumption with 12-30 other lions at a time, so inverse a kill such as a 1,000 pound buffalo will provide a Tiger a consistant and well established diet consumption, eating for a few days of all his fill and apatite can manage, in other words at-least a basis of 30-60 kilos of meat on each sittings, while a 1,000 pound buffalo in conjunction to a lion (pride, coalition, group) each lion will only consume small amounts, cubs; juvis; adults; females, males, brothers sisters, auntys and uncles, granpas, grandmas and grand kids all will only have a brief moment in grabbing only bits and peices of the buffalo, while the tigers meat is pro-longed to almost a week, the 1,000 pound buffalo will be gone in less then a day, feeding each lion only around 20-60 pounds of meat, so the tiger in the wild is consuming more than the lion, this is confirmed in captivity since on a consistant diet the tiger is shown actually smaller than some large wild tigers, at a average captive specimen of a bengal 300-400, while the average bengal is at a 300-500, of course it will vary since a element of pampering or over feeding can, will and does take place, leading to mixed variations, but the lion is shown to be slightly the opposite, in captivity the lion seems to average for males at 500-600 pounds, even 700 pounds are found quite frequently, which then in comparison on equal food consumtion is in margin of showing the male lion even as a whole speices including asiatics will always be larger than the heaviest end of sub-species bengal, capsian and siberian on average, when they are both fed the same consumtion ratios, this can logically be implimented by the simple fact of....if a tiger in the wild had to share his food with some 12-30 other family members his food intake would be drastically cut by atleast 1/10th, so inverse he will be atleast 20% lighter and smaller than a solitary diet, the same way the male tiger is 20% lighter on average compared to the male lion in captivity.

Lions are the heaviest cat speices in captivity on averages

2.) Nuetering, it is a common economic tactics in zoos, menageries and circuses to always boust out they have the worlds largest, the worlds biggest, the worlds most grand specimen, and there is a way to increase the size of lions and tigers weight, they nueter the animal, (cut out the animals balls) this on average increases the lion/tigers weight by nearly 100%, lions like woody and rhino 800 pounders are testiments to the claim, but for lions it is hardly ever done, since they lose there beautiful manes which fall out in the process, but for tigers there is no true way in knowing if he was castrated, atleast if the owners dont mention it to you, you wont know, this is also a thought that could debunk the pamaperd tiger jaipur, he was both fed with a bottle to the day he died (Spoiled) and could have been nutured as well, those 2 combinations could have led to an unatraul course in how he recived the title as the worlds heaviest cat, which if confirmed by miss Joan, then lions could as well be the heaviest living cat species as well, since Sultan wasn;t nutuerd for a fact, since he has his mane still present, not to mention the two nuteued brothers on youtube, are only estimated, if properly weighed, I'm sure they can fly pass 1,000 pounds, since they look the part, spoiled, large, and nutuered.

At present the tiger is still the heaviest big cat speices in aboulte weight by 0.25%

Finally, the ultimate testimate in seeing which big cat holds the genes in being the larger of the two of lions and tigers...The genetics...Genetically speaking, we always look at the dominant end of there speices gender; the males. If we speak scientifcally accurate, if we look at the cross, (hybrids) of tigers and lions; we can see which dominant male off spring promotes the larger size/weight. The largest the male siberian tiger promoted out of a female tiger was of course Jaipur, a 1,000 pound big cat, but in the cross, the male tiger makes the lionesses off spring (The tigon) comes out smaller than either or parents, with an average of 350 pounds, now for the male lion, he promoted a off-spring that too carried on almost identical with his own 1,000 pound tansfer (non-nutuerd) off-spring sultun, and for the cross, it is evident that the male lion holds all the more superior genes in promoting a larger specimen of a big cat, since when the male lion mates with the female tiger, the lion promotes a weight figure far greater than the male tiger could, with a off spring (The liger) that averages 700-1,000 pounds, and maxing out at 1,600 pounds...thats basically 2-5x larger of average to max weights of what the tiger could generate/accumilate in mass.

So the verdicts stand as in terms Size comparison...

-The lion is the heaviest cat species on average
-The lion is the tallest speices of cat on average
-The tiger is the heaviest cat speices in terms absolute weight
-The lion is the largest cat in size on average and at max
-The lion is the heaviest and largest cat speices in terms muscle mass
-The male lion is the heaviest cat on average in captivity
-The male lion promotes the superior size
-The son of the male lion, and son of the female tigress (liger=Leonidus) could very well be one of the largest and heaviest big cats to have ever walked the earth, larger than the saber tooth cat.

These are confirmed by via 40 Book abstracts, Biology studys, Zoologist, Natrualist, video confirmations, measurements and weights, logical implications of science, over 50 photos of them standing next to the other from the 19th hundreds all the way to the year 2013 on a consistant basis.






As for clyde beatty, I agree he is the highest authority in determining which cat is superior.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Big Bad Brody
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 17:34
Prime-

Seriously! Stop!

Terrel Jacobs said there were not Lions dominating Tigers in Clyde Beattys circus. Matter of fact he said Tigers were the superior fighters. Most wildlife experts Seidensticker, Packer (lion expert) Sunquist, Glassey, Antel, Erickson and I can go on and on all say the Tiger would win. 

Also there are many Animal Tamers more accomplished then Clyde Beatty that say the Tiger would win most fights. 

Gunther Gebel Williams
Louis Roth
Charley Bauman
Alex Kerr
Roman Proske
Domhre Dorte
Jim Wuellar
Jim Clubb
Mabel Starks
Bert Nelson
Sergio Pepslov
Cal Riter
Terrel Jacobs (who trained Clyde Beattys Lions and Tigers)
Joseph Marcin
Rick Glassey
Randy Miller

these are to name a FEW....that say the Tiger would win in a fight.


-------------
James Clements


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2013 at 21:14
A yuku memember eh?

Haven't seen one of you deceptive lying fanatics for a while. lol Clyde beatty stated these things himself, its there in plain black an white 9 times out of 10 a lion would whip a tiger, terrel jacobs also stated the lions heavy mane is a good protection...he stated nothing of a tiger dominating a lion nor did he discredit clyde (show the quota and link then), as for your random experts such as Craig Packer ect, they never worked with both lion and tiger, only one or the other, hence their opinion is no greater than the average person who can look up wiki like sites. Not to mention all the opinions such as Sunqist are decided on reading fictional books and novels, hence their exact quota was on count belisarious and the arabs stating tigers always won, a quick fact check on google books shows its a fictional story (right in the center of the page in blue), who also twist the tower of london fight into tigers won everytime, there was only one fight documented in 1830, which was 2 wild freshly caught tigers who lifted up a sliding door attacking King Georges indian/asiatic lion, who, when the fight was seperated the second bout when it was one on one, the lion beat down the male tiger breaking his fang. Almost none of them have seen fights specifically with a lion and tiger as majority of my sources have.

lol Funny, you have no links, cites, quotas to these alibies of yours...to bad for you I already am familiar with all of those names,    

Louis roth stated when the fights break out, always protect the weaker animal, for I have seen a tiger kill a lion, a lion kill a polar bear a small leopard kill a huge tiger.

You must be retarded, to think by that he ment the tiger is stronger, if so, I guess he must of ment a small leopard is stronger and superior to a huge tiger then eh? Or a lion is stronger than a polar bear, lol give me a break, none of those people favor the tiger over the lion, or else you would have brought in there quotas from there books and or articles from creditable newspaper archives, like your B.S claim that Bert nelson favors the tiger lol I already brought in via google books which Nelson stated lions are more better fighters and will often whip a tiger...so how did you pull that one out your A$$? Oh the phoney quote the wrong cat is called king of the beast? lol

Roman proske stated on the first paragraph he thinks tigers are the most agressive animal, yet then pages later states the male tiger is not as agressive as the male lion in mating season, so the lion is not more agressive over all, not to mention he along with gunther abel and alex kerr and all the rest never use specific words in conjunction comparing lions to tigers, he even states black leopards is the most powerful predators, yet that doesnt equate to him being able to on average kill bears, lions or tigers...all you're are doing is relying on twisting facts, as I showed on the link on my previous post all the exploitations and exposure of you fanatics on yuku, yet in a return fire, no proof is brought on saying you all exposed my archive, just rants an critics throwing tantrums saying fake, fables british, propaganda ect. They arnt fake as yours all are; since I made up none, they are all on reliable sources via google books and newspaper archives, yet your fakes, are of photo shoped faked articles, of a single tiger killing 60 lions ha ha ha hah aaa haa ha.

And mabel starks is a joke, she dident like lions, she stated it her self and stoped working them early on, her call out to beatty is one of the most hilarious things of all time, (which is good beatty never answered or got the memo since) she betting that 1,000 dollars her tigers would kill clydes lions would get clyde where? His spinning tiger princess killed in a accidental fight with a lion cost clyde 10,000 dollars, whats 1,000 supposed to confinscate? Not to mention she never paid for any of her tigers, since they were gifts from her husband german trainer louis roth, that call out showing she had no care for her tigers well being an safty, knowing that their would have been a huge risk to her tigers welfare. Yet I showed over 8 photos of majoirty of her tigers in that time periods and they looked no bigger than a large dog at 200-300 pounds, only a few at 400-500, she only had siberian tigers later in her carrier that got large which clyde already past away when he was in his 60's her largest tigers were of only recent 1990's-2000's, yet still they dident even look no bigger than 600 pounds lol even clydes tigers like sabre, gengis, bobby, and more were all way more impressive then mabels tigers, I'd bet his more than 5 siberian tigers would have mopped the floor with any of mabels tigers, not to mention; david hoover had the son of Pharoah.... clydes biggest performing lion... daves lion named John'John who was 714 pounds, an was most likely smaller than his father, Pharoah was also stated to be clydes areana boss, no lion even messed with him even duke and sultan who on two different occaisons whipped every single tiger in his act, I could pollute countless of times clydes lions harrased and beat up clydes tigers, all there is of clyde showing tribute to tigers is Rajah, who he stated could hold his ground, thats not the same as saying he'd win, nor does all the accounts and occaisons the lions chased his tigers like rex, rouge, princess and others up pedastals, oh wait, was that the time you were going to say a bunch of sumatran tigers mauled 9 of clydes lions? ha ah a ha, they never directly fought any lion, they just ran up pedastals and swung in all directions to the lions who were trying to get at them.

More accomplished then clyde beatty?

XD XD XD XD

Show me just one photo.....just one, with these more accomplished trainers of yours mixing over 40 lions and tigers in one cage....show me every single one you just mentioned just haveing half that much in the same cage and a root quota and link to them saying a tiger would whip a lion 9/10.

Bet you cant

The only ones I've seen that stated they'd favor the tiger over the lion, was people in books was Professor haughton; a fraud scientist who stated tigers can reach 18 feet long(thats 6 feet longer than the wolrds longest confirmed tiger) thats way off... and stated are vastly stronger needing an extra 6 men to hold down a tiger in comparison to the lions few, who always quoted edmonds menegeries incident, where a male tiger named nana sahib ripped open a lions stomach, who inverse most quote martials poem of the romans and then state the words everytime, yet when we read martials epigram it only mentioned a staged account, with a single tamed hycranian tiger...not everytime. lol Haughton, martial and Mr jamrochs of edmonds menageire's incident, is on a combined accumilation on over 52 books quoted for, that means majority of the books are based on silly 3 incidents of one phoney self porclaimed biologist, and 2 incidents of staged and weakened lions as stated in there exact abstracts(thats how you fanatics boust out saying all the books state the tiger kills the lion or superior, yet conseal an dont mention its only occaisons) lol the rest are in conjunction useless since you can offer none of there back grounds via history with lions and tiger directly show there crednetials in working with both.

C'mon, I wanna stretch my legs in humilating the lies of the yuku boards, hows P tigris doing? Still making aliases to hide behind the beat down he got, and still using jackjack aka kingthefrauds fake 300 list? Hah a ha, what a bunch of jokes, yet I went ahead and made the tiger killing lions list in chronology and so far theres less then 16, and 70% of them are of male tigers killing female and juvi lions, 20% of them were of staged and rigged fights, like roman proske who stabbed his lion in the face first with a steel fork before the tiger used that oppertunity to kill him, edmonds menagerie lion was past his prime and teeth blunted, martials was staged and programed to have been that way, ankara was a female which I seen a quota from someone who went there an she cut her throat on the fence trying to oprehend the fight, so I will just use google translate and contact the turkish zoo later and get a photo of her, an I even checked John vartys site, and it stated by JV himself along with a photo of the exact same time it happened, and savanah the lioness was attacked by seato Jvs biggest male tiger when she was....sedated, she was darted to check on her status, an in a weaknd state seato attacked and killed her...Huh! The only fair fight through out all of history won by the tiger was baroda, and that tiger died in the process, in the article it states the tiger had alot more wounds and deeper ones too. Thats only one fair fight while the rest all emit in its abstracts unfairness leverages and ambush attacks on lion cibs and females.

Yet clyde beatty, the person you know nothing of other than twisting the facts and consealing all that he said, has more accounts of lions killing tigers than all of history of sources on hand showing a tiger killing a lion, and he is just one of my sources, I have over a hundred other people and occaisons I left there links for the world to view. I have showed quotas of clyde stating...


-How they fight (Show every single one of yours of the same)= You cant.
-has accumilated over 30 accounts of his lions killing his tigers.(show accounst of your alibies haveing death tolls of over 10 tigers killing lions)
-40 years of experince working with both.(show the credntials of how long all of yours have been working with both)
-Has seen them fight with his own two eyes.(show there exact quota via link)
-How they match up statistically(show them mentioning attributes)

C'mon, show me everysingle one of them who you stated are higher than clyde passing just that small test, show their quotes of their experinces watching them fight, show how they think they stack up against the other, show more accounts of them having a tiger kill more lions then clydes toll, show me someone more of an authority than clyde beatty....just one.

I already showed all there root links and quotas via articles and book scans, you havent brought anything but lies, deceptive twisting of facts, consealing the truth and being a fraud, so before we move on, show the proof/evidence to all of what you just claimed, because we both no you cant, let alone show anything credible that extends more then the exposed and exploited yuku team and indragit wordpress losers.

My list is forever growing, your yuku list is forever shrinking.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2013 at 09:40
You forgot "bring em back alive" Frank Buck.  His wild animal compound was just outside Camden NJ in a suburb called Collingswood.  He specialised in big cats.  Wonder if there's anything written on him.

-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2013 at 17:20
Originally posted by red clay

You forgot "bring em back alive" Frank Buck.  His wild animal compound was just outside Camden NJ in a suburb called Collingswood.  He specialised in big cats.  Wonder if there's anything written on him.


I looked around a bit on Buck, he was friends with clyde, funny Bigbadbrody (or should I say (Big-dumb-lady lol) said that terrel jacobs trained clydes lions, thats just a plain out lie, Frank buck sold some lions to Beatty, but he mainly got the bengal tigers from his pupil an indian man Sahib who caught them all wild, beatty himself cuaght a few tigers with traps; terrell jacobs toured with beatty and nelson, they often would use the same lions and tigers from time to time, but beatty mainly had his own act and broke the record of mixing them in the same arena, twice, the firt time it was 25, the last one was 40, but some newspapers say he got as much as 50, but it needs to be further looked into, Frank buck dident say anything about lions vs tigers but he did comment in a news paper article called Jungle fighters and there attributes and stated along with beatty that bears wouldn't fair well against big cats, also that Clyde beatty mainly used wild specimens: I left the articles on another forum just to pass time an for people to see them, you can view it here:
http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3031296 - http://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3031296

Interesting that lions killed so many large bears such as grizzlys and polar bears, starting out in the subject I would have never thought that possible, but with the right studying, it all opens up and is quite clear; this looney above is part of the yuku board the way he say'd Stop! like that, could mean its Paul the admin...but I'll have to wait and see how his further grammar comes out since I know them quite well to distinguish whos, who...they have hundreds of alises, but you can tell whos who when you start insulting them lol, they come from a site that has kids polluting the web with photo shop and editing newspapers saying tigers killed lions, since they cant find anything of that manner to match equally; they just make things up, I have shown the proof in how they faked it, the content substance and even the inspiration....funniest thing is I got one of them to admit it, since it was so obvious, he pointed out a account where a single tiger killed 60 lions... thats sixty (not 6/six)...really a single tiger killed that much? Funny, he didn't know who he was talking too, the zeta boards already exploited that part, they just didn't format it so people could know how they did it, so I completed it...the tip of the ice berg was when I became a new member on yuku, he never encountered me or talked to me before, so he tryed to pass it off and get all condesending and contradicting, I presented clydes accounts of the 30 occaisons he accumilated of lions killing tigers, then he says he has the sixty in one crack...then presents it. XD XD XD I show the exploitation in his fake article then he comments...

Oh, I already knew that for Years it was a mistake and lioness2008 pointed it out but I have more

ha ha ha haaa ha, how can you know for years then just pass if off minutes ago? He constantly does that to people he doesnt know, he will hit you off with why do you hate tigers? Yet no one ever remotely degrades the tiger...Why do you lie? when none of us lie, only him; constantly...You are the worst troll fanatic I have ever met, yet said that to already 100 people, how can every single one who favors the lion, be the biggest, the worst, the hugest, the largest, everytime? and yet he has 100 different accounts and aliases that post 80 pound boney starving lions than laughs and mocks them, makes hundreds of phoney photo shoped articles that have all sorts of animals killing lions like leopards, tigers, bears ect and posts them on youtube, he stated on animal enthusiast .com that he hates lions, even making blogs that has the title as if he is a newspaper archive, just copying the head lines, ha ha, hes just leaving them out and just waiting to get sued by those copy write companys...using there logo; brand and editing there content, going under their names as well...this guy garentee's speacializes in idenity theft...thats why I give the credits to the sources I find, and make sure I emit that these are for educational purposes, I edit nothing since copy right infringements can lead to a suing of 250,000 dollars and 25 years in jail if you are promoting there stuff by editing there content without there permission...again, I edit nothing, I present everything as is.

I dont know what the hell is their problem, they lie, use fictional books, cut an paste to conseal the whole abstract, repeat occaisons and say they are different accounts to act like they have alot of individsual cases....all they are is a bunch of butt hurt fanatics, kids almost, making accounts on wiki and providing pro data for the tiger, and using there aliases to erase anyones presenting of a lion winning or something that favours the lion. thats why I left yuku, because paul kept erasing pages of info I typed out, so I said fuk him and I left, and will never go back even if someone paid me a grand. One of the mods kept un-banning me and said to keep posting because the info was good, but once Paul aka P tigris kept coming in he'd erased the exploitation list amoung other stuff, so I told the mod, no thanks, and dont even bother, I didnt wanna be a part of some loser white supremisis skin head cult that burns books to hide the turth, i stated wasnt going back not matter what even though alot of people wanted me back, It will disrupt my honor and dignity lol. Notice how brody doesnt wanna present the links to their root quotas via scans from their books, thats because hes just naming random real animal trainers and saying they favour the tiger, lol Look how he starts it off....Prime...Stop...

Stop what? Is it wrong for me to present quotas, articles, books thats not only relevent to the topic but is esential as well, oh I get it, no one is suppose to know of those, they hid that from the world for going on 7 years now; saying no one favors the lion, all experts...only...favor the tiger, all acounts...only...are of tigers killing lions; all the videos, all statistics, all the artifacts...only favour the tiger. Ha hah ah aaa ha, yeah right.


Thats why in catagories so far I accumilated:

-95 Artifacts of lions defeating tigers from almost every continent(theres only 6 of tigers winning)
-125 modern documents of lions killing tigers(theres only 17 different sources of tigers winning)
-42 animal experts, biologist, natraulist zoologist that favours the lion in a fight with a tiger(theres only 9 with credentials that favor the tiger)
- showed weights proving that on average lions are much heavier from 40 sources
-Showed 50 photographs of lions and tigers in the same shot proving that lions in size is much taller and larger due to his mane by 35% on average.
-Exploited and exposed with evidence/proof their fake list countless of times


and more...bottom line is its all debunkable as soon as you put it in chronological order, you cant cheat that system...and my list is still growing, I havn't the right resources (old computer) nor the time to extend it for now, this will be my last few post for a while, but I will return and finish it or continue to aid the subject later...I haven't even seen the nutruels for a while either, others like myself have just as much if not more data when combined to share, such as Leofwin(science/accounts), Boldchamp(weights/book scans), schamma king(historical consensus/experts), Dalencat(Social and mentality patterns), firestone(healdry/reliegon), lioness 08'(anatomy/physiology), kaos(geography and locations), peter(history/), jeninfordragon(ecology and biology), Asad(the crap load of good photos) they all have there own data that is unique, in other words anyone of them can do what the other does, but from what I witnessed each of them seem to provide the best of the best info in those catagories I labeled next to there names, as I too have collected data of my own and I am more so interested in what artifacts each culture has and who they portrayed winning, I am on the verge in getting almost all of them patended and figuring out their dates and placements, along with books that support them in being true events.

Since...desperate pathetic fanatic queenthefraud, (the guy who was exposed for faking 300 accounts) are just the opposite, Perault, pathrap, paul, jackjack ect all thrive on the fake list on indragit and jackjacksonj website, they hide behind it like their lives depended on it, and will chastize and basically say anything to discredit the overall info when properly examining both, just because he shows a link similar to what hes saying, doesnt mean it proves anything, yet he screams out all day long, British, propaganda, fake, lies, fables, novels, sumatran tiger, sick tiger, small tiger, trash....with no proof, no evidence, in fact hes so desperate, he tryed to confine them all from a stupid book that stated from a critic, 3 artist drew what they did because of the war with the british, so now he draws over everything anyone presents (like some sort of kid or butt hurt loser would) and wirtes on the BRITISH, FAKE, FABLES....lol yet slowly I then present the very artifact he wrote on, and show the credentials that it wasnt british like peitro aqualia, who was italian, like barumus ruthart who was german born in the roman empire, then he switiches it up, saying...but it had nothing to do with a real fight its with the war and are made for fictional implications for propaganda with the church...ha hah ah ha, I thought he said it was british? haha, he'd just say and make up anything, since we know his intentions already from the start, he lied and was caught faking 300 accounts back back...way back in 2006, I came on the scene only recently on the past 2 years, yet only come on every so often, hes on this subject every day of his life XD, hes the biggest liar and loser I have ever seen, who the fuk does that?

But anyways, thanks for allowing the data to be a part of this forum,an my bad if I'm a little to blunt and straight foward...but I think it fits with the forums theme...mainly the historical parts, I will fix the others I illustrated poorly on later when I get a new computer and dont worry about the links I provided thats broken, Bold champs re-news the bandwith from time to time, so it will eventually reboot, and or later I can get my hands on different links to the quotas and scans from the refferences of the books and grow the list.


^_^

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2013 at 19:13
Yeah as for the link I provided of lions vs bears highlighting frank bucks quota, I posted the wrong page, but it should be in that thread.

As for Terrel jacobs; he had around 20 seperate bill boards that stated in countless articles he had the largest act ever, most say 50, yet I remember a artcile that stated 50, yet he had only 3 leopards, 2 bears, 5 lions and 7 tigers, thats far from 50, thats not even half... clyde was the only that went down in the hall of fame to have 40 lions and tigers in the same cage, terrell although he had quite a few and was respected as one of the greats; to those who knew him, he wasn't as professional as people like beatty, he was clumsy, and rude to some of the animals, he dident even know how to work a whip for he lost an eye because of that; on that shame he changed his name from terell jacques, to terell jacobs the lion king, who had the most justlions in one cage, and their was one other person on circus blog history, that held a higher record of 60, I forget his name, but he should still be posted there.

Clyde was much higher than terrell; clyde beatty was the highest authority atleast for lions and tigers, and atleast for those who know/knew Terrell, stated that he was just a rip off of clyde beatty:
http://books.google.com/books?id=t1tb8E-2ldEC&pg=PT400&dq=terrell+jacobs+his+act+was+a+complete+steal+of+beattys++mabel&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QzlTUtSbJ4G3igKJt4GYBg&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=t1tb8E-2ldEC&pg=PT400&dq=terrell+jacobs+his+act+was+a+complete+steal+of+beattys++mabel&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QzlTUtSbJ4G3igKJt4GYBg&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA

again terrel had fewer lions and tigers when he mixed them:
http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/performers/terrelljacobs.html - http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/performers/terrelljacobs.html

In fact I did a scan on google articles/archives, and in bold letrings highlighting some of the words from the article...and it states the lions heavy mane protects his throat and he set up many fights with tigers and lions and the lions Always the winner:
http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

XD XD XD

lol I'll try and see if I can get a snap shot of Pdf of that article to confirm it.... hah a ha hah ah ha, how do you like that though, didnt that mook brody just say terrell favored the tiger? Had more experince than clyde? an all that other B.S he stated with no links....XD, thats Karma for you; thats why they are a gotta jave around, they make things so easy, most of the time you would think you would have no lead in where to look to find answers of this topic, so; they just randomly pick a animal trainer than make up there own fantasy roster and try to re-write history saying that person favored what they like....Ha ha mmmm the desperation, thats what happens when they cry wolf too much, not only does the people lose trust in there names (thats why they keep making new aliases because no one will take them serious at this point0 but also the big bad wolf (Me) will come around and make there claims true, yet vice versa, just like how they said with all the experts, now is being shown yet again that, thats hardly the truth....so thanks brody, I'll try and see if I can verify this article; if terrell was the one who indeed made that remark, than basically everyone who has worked with both and witnnessed them fight will/has pointed out the lions mane emits the determining factor of who usually would win, the rest who say other wise havn't even worked with both; or seen them fight. lol

Still waiting for brody to bring in therir quotas via links.

Oh wait...he can't because they dont exist, they make up phoney lies daily.

lol Sad.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2013 at 23:58
Don't mind the data, all I ask is that you lighten up some on the folks from other sites.  Yuku is Yuku, what goes on there is their problem.
 
Where I am no expert, I do have more than a casual knowledge of captive big cats.  And there is a big diff. from Big cats in the wild.
As I posted, Hunt Bros had their winter quarters near my home.  Marsha Hunt was the last of the family to directly run the circus.  She also was an accomplished pianist and organist.  In the off season she worked in nightclubs and resturants.  I backed her up on drums many times and had many "tours" of the Hunt compound.
They had a famous act that was the first to mix Tigers and Lions, in the show cage at the same time.  It's been 40+ years, so the name isn't there.  But when they weren't performing they were kept as far from each other as possible.  Marsha told me that the Tigers had a nasty habit of killing off the lions,  however,  this was something that seemed to be a problem more with captive animals than those in the wild.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2013 at 00:44
Originally posted by red clay

Don't mind the data, all I ask is that you lighten up some on the folks from other sites.  Yuku is Yuku, what goes on there is their problem.
 

Where I am no expert, I do have more than a casual knowledge of captive big cats.  And there is a big diff. from Big cats in the wild.

As I posted, Hunt Bros had their winter quarters near my home.  Marsha Hunt was the last of the family to directly run the circus.  She also was an accomplished pianist and organist.  In the off season she worked in nightclubs and resturants.  I backed her up on drums many times and had many "tours" of the Hunt compound.

They had a famous act that was the first to mix Tigers and Lions, in the show cage at the same time.  It's been 40+ years, so the name isn't there.  But when they weren't performing they were kept as far from each other as possible.  Marsha told me that the Tigers had a nasty habit of killing off the lions,  however,  this was something that seemed to be a problem more with captive animals than those in the wild.

 

 


I am glad you have that out look; yeah, I dont want them coming here either, I dont see why they cant stay in their bucket of sorrows, porbably because no one is taking them serious anymore.

But cool man, I notice you adress things on personal observation and talk...thats alot better than listening to people who have no knowledge on subject, I too only know the basics, since of course we arn't tamers, trainers, hunters, biologist and live near wild ones lol but I wish to learn more from people who held those titles...do you know if this marsha wrote any books? That way its credability can be taken into consideration. I am just in awe of how much the yuku team lie and decive, all that time you'd think they actually look for credible data instead of faking things and photo shoping things frequently, I even seen a few accounts of tigers defeating lions that they never jotted down on there whole 7 years of yuku...that alone shows how Karma plays a huge role in there deceptive ways. lol

I really dont have all that much, I'm looking foward to doubling and possibly intriplicating the data I have now in each catagorie, later; that way it can be conclusive, not a near win, but a substantial amount that shows no dought who is the superior; I think it is possible in what I have gathered and examined so far of the all the data combined thats on hand, I think I can triple the amount and organize it, but again; thats for later.

But anyways, I am looking foward in hearing more of your own experinces or just knowledge on subject, an again thanks for havin me here, its interesting none the less.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2013 at 01:48
A good starting place
 
http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query06c1101.htm - http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query06c1101.htm
 
another- http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/circuses/huntbroscircus.html - http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/circuses/huntbroscircus.html
 
Saving this for the right timeWink I once dealt in ephemera.  I still own several original Vonn Bros, Christiani and Hunt posters. 
The jewel in the crown is, my 1856 Barnum and London 9 United Shows poster.  JoJo, the Dogfaced boy, Jumbo the worlds largest elephant, etc. etc.  I bought it  from a junkman when I was in college, for the princely sum of 3 bucksBig smile  "Better than a college for rare knowledge".
 
Let me dig around some, might find some stuff directly related to Big Cats.
 
Note, before the war, Red Sr. lived approx 5 miles from Bucks compound, and did odd jobs for him.  Sr. is still kicking at 93,  When I get the chance I'stim him a little and see what comes up.
 
 


-------------
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2013 at 02:28
Originally posted by red clay

A good starting place
 

http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query06c1101.htm - http://www.circushistory.org/Query/Query06c1101.htm

 

another- http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/circuses/huntbroscircus.html - http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/circuses/huntbroscircus.html

 

Saving this for the right timeWink I once dealt in ephemera.  I still own several original Vonn Bros, Christiani and Hunt posters. 

The jewel in the crown is, my 1856 Barnum and London 9 United Shows poster.  JoJo, the Dogfaced boy, Jumbo the worlds largest elephant, etc. etc.  I bought it  from a junkman when I was in college, for the princely sum of 3 bucksBig smile  "Better than a college for rare knowledge".

 

Let me dig around some, might find some stuff directly related to Big Cats.

 

Note, before the war, Red Sr. lived approx 5 miles from Bucks compound, and did odd jobs for him.  Sr. is still kicking at 93,  When I get the chance I'stim him a little and see what comes up.

 

 


Thats incredbile, small world eh? Thanks for the in site, I can always appreciate root sources more than hear say; yeah I've read a few lines here and there from that site, and if you become a member there you get acsess to a whole heap of stuff, its a bit rough to read through the way they have it formated, but no biggie. Thats the site where I found out Clydes lion Prince killed alice the siberian tiger.

I also asked a few circus blogs of people who are super dedicated to the circus and were once aprt of it knowing all these big names, but I got the cold shoulder in askingt directly, I actually was expecting that, no real person who loves the craft can emit, focus or just talk about a silly thing like animals fighting, I told him my reasons were purely for educational purposes and I dont condole and am against animal cruelty and he understood, and just bided me good luck. lol

Of al, I'd like to obtain atleast scans of the direct quota, article, photo ect, I'm not big on hear say, nor do I like to emit it, facts, root sources and refferences that can be found in reliable places via librarys or now days google books .com, ebay or amazon, what evers more accsesable. I just speed read through some on the link you just showed and I already seen Dave hoovers name, so I will give a full read in a minute or two.

Thanks, and yeah if you find anything, do share it with us, and when I say us; I mean us as in the world.   

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2013 at 17:13
The fights taken place here are all in wild, this bout would be of one of the largest sub-speices of tigers the bengal vs the smallest sub-species of lions Leo Persica aka the Indian/Asiatic lion:



Small asiatic lion stale mates huge Prime bengal tiger:

Stalked By Two Wild Beasts.—An Exciting Combat.


E This feeling began to go away in about fifteen minutes, and I was just congratulating myself on my lucky escape, when I turned my eyes to the north, or towards camp. The sight thrilled me like an electric shock. Close beside the wall, on the left-hand side, was a tiger, a rousing big fellow, who had seen fifteen years of life. On the right-hand side, and also close to the base of the walls, was a medinm-sized male lion, and the attitude of both plainly showed that they had been stalking me. It was a still hunt, and I was the victim. The lion had come out of the bush to the right, and the tiger had come out of a thicket to the left and crossed the creek. Neither animal could have seen the other, and thus they were not aware of each other's presence.

When I got sight of the beasts the lion had half turned, as if to sneak away, while the tiger was crouched against the wall, and seemed shamefaced. Had I risen up and swung my hat and yelled, both would have bolted; but I must confess that, taking my pain and the general situation into account, I was badly rattled. I couldn't think just what ought to be done, and, therefore, did nothing. This, after a moment, encouraged the beasts, and then came such a situation as few men were ever placed in. I had an opportunity to see here a lion and a tiger approach a victim waiting to be struck down.

I have wondered a thousand times what could have come over me, to sit there with my gun within reach and my revolver in its holster, and make not the slightest move to save my life, while those fierce brutes crept nearer and nearer. I think the poison benumbed and stupefied me to a certain extent. That is, while my brain was never more active, nor my eyesight keener, I felt helpless to move, and my mouth was as dry as if I had a fever. I knew my peril as fully as anyone could; but, when I thought of grasping my rifle and sighting it, the exertion required discouraged me.

The lion was the bolder of the two. After making up his mind that I could not harm him, he held his head well up, swung his tail about, and advanced at a slow pace. I was under cover, and he might have suspected a trap. But for this he would, probably, have made a rush. The tiger displayed exactly the same characteristics as a cat Creeping upon her prey. He crept, crawled, twisted about, and sought to shelter his body behind the slightest tuft of grass. He did not, however, take his eyes off me for the tenth of a second, and the nearer he came the more his great lips parted to show his yellow teeth.

By-and-by the lion was almost at the end of the wall, and near enough for his spring. He crouched down, switched his tail in a menacing way, and I plainly saw his talons dig into the earth as he gathered his muscles for a great effort. While there was a settled determination on his part to make food of me, there was a certain trepidation in his general demeanor. It was plain that he was mystified, but his ferocious nature prevailed.

The tiger kept abreast of the lion, and he was the first to take the alarm. He evidently scented the lion, for he reared up, snuffed the air, and then flung out a paw and spat like an angry cat. This noise startled the lion, and he rose up, showed his teeth, and took his eyes off me for the first time. Either animal could easily have leaped the wall, but neither attempted it. The tiger took on a fiercer look, and dropped some of his stealth, but the lion reached the end of the wall first, uttering a roar of defiance, and evidently expecting to meet an enemy. The tiger was four or five feet from the end of the wall, and the move he made was so quick that my eyes could not follow it. As the lion's head showed around the wall, the big cat made a lightning spring, and, the next instant, the two were rolling over and over at my feet, fighting as only such beasts can fight, and growling in a manner to make my hair turn gray.

It was then that strength came back to me, and I rose up; but, instead of rushing away, I ran back into the building. Reaching the rear wall, I stood there, a prisoner and spectator. The first clinch lasted about three \ninutes, and was characterized by such ferocity as I cannot describe. While the lion and the tiger are, probably, natural

enemies, I suppose the fact that both had planned to make meat of me, and both felt themselves disappointed, aroused all their ferocity. Most of the time during the first clinch they were rolling over and aver like a big ball, tearing, biting and growling, and the movements of the tiger were much the quicker.

They finally separated, each backed off a few feet, and each stood broadside to me. I could see half a dozen blood-stains on the lion's side, while the tiger had been terribly bitten about the neck, and there was a bloody scratch on his quarter. They faced each other for about a minute, the lion roaring a deep bass, and the tiger snarling like an enraged cat. Then, as swift as a flash of lightning, the tiger bounded through space and alighted on the lion's back, and again they rolled and tumbled about. The fight was too fierce to be kept up long, and too determined not to result in serious injuries.

When the beasts finally struggled to their feet, the tiger had hold of the lion just back of the fore shoulder, and he hung there and worried the king as a dog would a sheep. Twice the lion yelped out as if he had lost his courage, but he suddenly made a grand exertion, broke the tiger's hold, and then turned and caught him by the neck. I thought all was over with the cat. The lion actually lifted him clear of the ground and shook him, and this time the tiger whined. After a bit, however, he twisted his body around until his hind claws came into play, and then the lion had to let go.

There was another rest for a minute or so, and again the tiger was the aggressive party. This time they fought more like dogs, neither seeming able to down the other, and they kept working away from the building toward the creek. I advanced as they retreated, and they were still doing their best to destroy each other, when they rolled off the bank into the creek. Each was covered with blood from nose to tail, and the injuries inflicted must have been serious. The tumble into the water separated them, and while the tiger reached the opposite bank at one spot, the lion crawled out at another thirty feet away, and both limped into the forest without the slightest desire to renew the fight.
http://books.google.com/books?id=idIRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA362&dq=lion+tiger+fight+separated&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aYJUUshvyqmKAozggBA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=idIRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA362&dq=lion+tiger+fight+separated&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aYJUUshvyqmKAozggBA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBA


Smaller asiatic lion kills larger bengal tiger:

31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”)

A drama at the Ganges.

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.


Translated from German to English by Leofwin:
http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false-

A quick fact check on the geography's location, via maps, shows that this incident was indeed in the area where lions once lived of the past 17th-18th century, so the credability of its substance is highly credible.




These two accounts, along with another from the ballou magazine (Indian/British Newspaper archive) has it as two were seen fighting in the jungle and shot dead, before they died of the bullets the lion was seen on top of the tiger biting his throat, so most likely the lion was going to be the victor half an half of the tiger getting out of the hold. Those few accounts so far proves, even with a slight weight advantage, toppled with the tiger faster movements and slight leverages being the more agile cat did not and does not over rule the lions superior fighting tactics, durability and power. In other words a african lion is all the more superior to the asiatic lion, so he will on more occaisons be the victor.


-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2013 at 01:31
Some untold info:


PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES


John Seidensticker, Ph.D. Scientist Zoological Park in Washington, D.C:


http://mysite.verizon.net/johnseidensticker/ - http://mysite.verizon.net/johnseidensticker/

"Tigers are similar in size to lions, although tigers have shorter legs"

(Weights including all Sub-speices from Biologist)

Tigers weigh less than lions on average (Kitchener and Yamaguchi 2010)
*     Average adult male lion: 175 kg (386 lb)
*     Average adult male tiger: 160 kg (353 lb)

http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger.htm - http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger.htm

(Lions 4 foot tall 420 lbs)


(Tigers 3 foot tall 400 lbs)
http://www.google.com/search?q=Focus+are+about+9+feet+long+including+the+tail+and+stand+about+3+feet+tall+at+the+shoulder+and+weigh+400+pounds&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=Focus+are+about+9+feet+long+including+the+tail+and+stand+about+3+feet+tall+at+the+shoulder+and+weigh+400+pounds&tbm=bks&tbo=1

(Size and weights from 40 Year Animal trainer Clyde.B)





The lion is taller than the tiger by 5.5 inches on average (Robert smith)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rmbWriXe1v0C&pg=PT5&dq=the+lion+is+taller++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LE1iUpLpMeK3iwK5p4GADA&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=rmbWriXe1v0C&pg=PT5&dq=the+lion+is+taller++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LE1iUpLpMeK3iwK5p4GADA&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

(Sudipta Mitra)

"The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder"

(Arjan Singh)

"They are low slung to the ground and closer to the true cat than the lion, who compares them in size and weight, he stands taller than the tiger."

Example

-Tigers posture head low to the ground
-Lions posture head held high

Lioness (Nala) is taller than male bengal (Detonater) at Head/Shoulder while the tigers body is lower to the ground:


Male lion (Taller x Mane x Heavier) = Equates = To a 2x larger cat than the bengal tiger in size on average:



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Bert Nelson



Mr. Nelson is the wild-animal trainer of the Hagenbeck-Wallace and orepaugh- Sells Circus...For seventeen years he has been socking lions & tigers on the proboscis... Mr. Nelson tickled the nose of Old Mom, an angry-looking lionessas with the point of a stick and jumped back as Old Mom, snarling enthusiastically, reached out through the cage to claw him" A short time before Mr. Nelson's twenty-four lions and tigers slid lithe-ly into their large central cage, there to snarl and roar and slap sharp- clawed paws at their trainer as he jumped them from pedestal to pedestal. Great Theory" For Some One Else SCARS ARE REMINDER Bert Nelson Also Discredits Belief That Tigers Can Vanquish Lords Of Jungle (Continued /rom Paffe 22) for their little while in the rings and the arena....You never know when one of these babies will go crazy on your hands," said Mr. Nelson. Tigers easier to train, too, he said. Lions Always Beat Tigers "I've seen lots of gang fights between lions and tigers-- we had a me this spring when we opened in Chicago," he asserted...The tiger always attacks the lion by rolling over on his back and going for the throat When he goes for the throat he runs into a mane two or three inches thick and the same mane extends all down ie underside of the lion's body.

~Try To Look Cockeyed Lion In Eye? Not For Mr. Nelson The Sun - Aug 14, 1935
http://www.google.com/search?q=bert+nelson+Tigers+Can+Vanquish+Lords+of+jungle+Lions+Always+Beat+Tigers+mane+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&spell=1&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=DzJzUsGpHMfM2gXUqIHwAw&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=bert+nelson+Tigers+Can+Vanquish+Lords+of+jungle+Lions+Always+Beat+Tigers+mane+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&spell=1&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=DzJzUsGpHMfM2gXUqIHwAw&sa=N


Terrell Jacobs



There is no doubt that the lion reigns as the king of beasts, says Terrell Jacobs of Barnes Brothers circus which opened The lion has a heavy thick mane that protects its throat. An attacking tiger goes for the throat of a foe but cannot bite much except hair when it grabs a lion so the lion has a big advantage...I have seen fights between lions and tigers and have arranged such fights in tarzan pictures and the lion is always the winner. A young lion that has not grown a mane might stand no more than an even chance a tiger but a full-maned lion has all the advantage," said Jacobs

~The Rambler: Evening Independent - Nov 8, 1939
http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

He states a maneless lion stands a even chance:

(Mane-less Nutuered male lion)




Trevor Bale



The hairy mane the lion's throat, preventing the much-speedier tiger from killing the African cat during a battle and giving the lion the reputation of being King.

~Trevor Bale Tells: Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Mar 20, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+hairy+mane+the+lions+throat%2C+preventing+the+much-speedier+tiger+from+tilling+the+African+cat+during+a+battle+and+giving+the+lion+the+reputation+of+being+king+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=w4d0UpbzNefgiAKI1IDgAQ&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=the+hairy+mane+the+lion%27s+throat%2C+preventing+the+much-speedier+tiger+from+tilling+the+African+cat+during+a+battle+and+giving+the+lion+the+reputation+of+being+king+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=w4d0UpbzNefgiAKI1IDgAQ&sa=N


Damoo Dhotre



THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre.

~Lion Picked In Fight: Milwaukee Sentinel - Jul 4, 1970
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dhotre+said+he+would+back+a+lion.+although+the+tiger+is+faster%2C+the+lion+is+at+mane+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=9912UpXMHKGwiQKehIGICw&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Dhotre+said+he+would+back+a+lion.+although+the+tiger+is+faster%2C+the+lion+is+at+mane+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=9912UpXMHKGwiQKehIGICw&sa=N


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


INDIA

Nilakanta Sastri Indian Historian M.A & Dravidologist


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger.


~A Comprehensive History of India: The Mauryas & Satavahanas, 325 B.C.-300 A.D Orient Longmans, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search


CHINA


Tocharians



The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.

(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)



It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,

It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,

It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm

“A glourious event in the past”


(Sheeps do not have claws)

The lion was even more savage then the tiger.


~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang ExoticsUniversity of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z7cZ77SqEQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA84&dq=ainceint+lions+the+most+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z7cZ77SqEQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA84&dq=ainceint+lions+the+most+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/show_issue.php?id=199888708122E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art%20and%20Culture&h2=Museums - http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/show_issue.php?id=199888708122E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art%20and%20Culture&h2=Museums

Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.

~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams



HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN/CHINA

Like the lion, the tiger is a stranger to the Japanese islands, and was usually portrayed in the traditional manner imported from china, via scroll paintings.
~Netsuke: Japanese Life and Legend in Miniature

http://books.google.com/books?id=WWgh3P7OFyUC&pg=PA62&dq=Like+the+lion,+the+tiger+is+a+stranger+to+the+Japanese+islands,+and+was+usually+portrayed+in+the+traditional+manner+imported+from+china,+via+scroll+paintings.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qK1tUs2NG6SQyAGpiYGICw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=WWgh3P7OFyUC&pg=PA62&dq=Like+the+lion,+the+tiger+is+a+stranger+to+the+Japanese+islands,+and+was+usually+portrayed+in+the+traditional+manner+imported+from+china,+via+scroll+paintings.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qK1tUs2NG6SQyAGpiYGICw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


Clyde beatty 1951



Beatty said the tiger that was killed was one of his veteran performers and had attacked him years ago, sendinging him to the hospital...She was the whole act, he said,"I loved that cat I wouldn't have taken $10,000 for her" He explained the tiger was a roll over cat....He said he will watch the killer lion very closely from now on...the biggest expense I have is tigers killed by lions he said, They are natrual enimies...that makes the show better, He said lions have killed probably '50' tigers in the years he has been working with the big Jungle cats.

~Beatty Fights Off Lion After Tiger Is Killed Tuscaloosa News Feb 20 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=heA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G00MAAAAIBAJ&pg=6300,3617947&dq=clyde+beatty+he+said+lions+had+killed+prob-ably+tigers+in+the+years+he+was&hl=en - http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=heA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G00MAAAAIBAJ&pg=6300,3617947&dq=clyde+beatty+he+said+lions+had+killed+prob-ably+tigers+in+the+years+he+was&hl=en


{1949}


Lion kills 1,000 lb tiger

Lion Conquers Tiger NEW BEDFORD: A lion and a tiger battled to the death here. The lion won. When Biller Bros. Circus moved on to its next stop, it left behind the carcass of the loser, a tiger weighing half a ton.

http://www.google.com/search?q=A+lion+and+a+tiger+battled+to+the+death+here.+The+lion+won.+When+Biller+Bros.+Circus+moved+on+to+its+ton++a+tiger+weighing+half+a+ton.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=r1y1UYbFNaS2iwK30oCoDg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=A+lion+and+a+tiger+battled+to+the+death+here.+The+lion+won.+When+Biller+Bros.+Circus+moved+on+to+its+ton++a+tiger+weighing+half+a+ton.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=r1y1UYbFNaS2iwK30oCoDg&sa=N


So far we know that the:

-The lions mane is a big advantage.
-Tigers are quicker in movement and faster but weaker in strikeing.
-Lions are slightly heavier on average, much taller and alot bigger in size due to the mane.
-Tigers are slightly longer and more ferocious/fearful.
-Lions have killed tigers more then vice versa just about 50x; just from Clyde beatty, even recorded killing the heaviest record breaker size/mass tigers as well.
-It seems more people that has worked with (Both) Agree the lion will always win.


Bigbadbrody, thanks for given me the new experts opinions.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2013 at 16:28
Follow up:

PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES


PhD Biologist Howard Quiqley

http://www.wcsrussia.org/en-us/aboutus/ouraccomplishments.aspx - http://www.wcsrussia.org/en-us/aboutus/ouraccomplishments.aspx

"African lions weigh up to 500 pounds; Bengal tigers average about 400 pounds"
http://www.google.com/search?q=Biologist+African+lions+weigh+up+to+500+pounds%3BBengal+tigers+average+about+400+pounds.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=z-l5UpqvMeHFigL2k4GICQ&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Biologist+African+lions+weigh+up+to+500+pounds%3BBengal+tigers+average+about+400+pounds.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=z-l5UpqvMeHFigL2k4GICQ&sa=N

(Historical implication of india)

“Several other feline species infest the Indian jungle, but the lion, largest of all and in the popular fancy regarded as even more powerful than the tiger, has almost ceased to exist on the mainland since the beginning of the present century”
~The Earth and Its Inhabitants, Asia: India and Indo-China By Elisée Reclus
http://books.google.com/books?id=mWI_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=Several+other+feline+species+infest+the+Indian+jungle,+but+the+lion,+largest+of+all+and+in+the+popular+fancy+regarded+as+even+more+powerful+than+the+tiger,+has+almost+ceased+to+exist+on+the+mainland+since+the+beginning+of+the+present+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d7-UUZu2L8i3rgHq7IDACg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=mWI_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=Several+other+feline+species+infest+the+Indian+jungle,+but+the+lion,+largest+of+all+and+in+the+popular+fancy+regarded+as+even+more+powerful+than+the+tiger,+has+almost+ceased+to+exist+on+the+mainland+since+the+beginning+of+the+present+century&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d7-UUZu2L8i3rgHq7IDACg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Similar Consistantcy's, show that the lion is always the larger cat visually taller and larger in size:

(Example)

Pinder Cirque 2008



Allen King 1935

http://books.google.com/books?id=wt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA552&dq=allen+king++lion+tiger+mane+kill&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1fxkUpG4CsasiQLk6oGgCQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg - http://books.google.com/books?id=wt8DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA552&dq=allen+king++lion+tiger+mane+kill&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1fxkUpG4CsasiQLk6oGgCQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg

Clyde beatty 1935



Height and weight comparison of the smallest sub-species of both existing lion and tigers:

Sumatran tiger:



Height of 2 feet 6 inches on average; Greatest of 3'3 at the shoulder
http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger_summary.htm - http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger_summary.htm

weights of 220-310 lbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatran_tiger - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumatran_tiger


Asiatic lion:



3'11 at the shoulder on average; Greatest shoulder height of 4 feet 6 inches
http://books.google.com/books?id=DOQ4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA526&dq=lion++tiger+four++feet+shoulder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vxR6Ur7KOOfJigKK04CgCw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAjgU - http://books.google.com/books?id=DOQ4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA526&dq=lion++tiger+four++feet+shoulder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vxR6Ur7KOOfJigKK04CgCw&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAjgU

Weights of 350-average; 680lbs-max
http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Dave Hoover



Tigers and lions are natrual enimies. Should a tiger leave his seat and jump to the floor, the lions would attack it...They like to be boss, espeacially male lions. Tigers pair off as mates, but the male lion will even kill his own father to take over the pride. And in a tussle, the $500 lion will usually kill the $2000 tiger.
http://www.google.com/search?q=hoover++in+a+tussle%2C+the+%24500+lion+will+usually+kill+the+%242000+tiger.+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=4Ft1Uq2SPMO7jAL0sYGIAw&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=hoover++in+a+tussle%2C+the+%24500+lion+will+usually+kill+the+%242000+tiger.+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=4Ft1Uq2SPMO7jAL0sYGIAw&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=dave+hoover+Tigers+and+lions+are+natural+enemies.+Should+a+tiger+leave+his+seat+and+jump+to+the+floor%2C+the+lions+would+attack+it+kill+his+own+father+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=dave+hoover+Tigers+and+lions+are+natural+enemies.+Should+a+tiger+leave+his+seat+and+jump+to+the+floor%2C+the+lions+would+attack+it+kill+his+own+father+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Dave Salmoni



Dave Salmoni, the Animal Planet network’s predator expert, who spent years training big cats; but if the animal has a mission, “it will avoid all of those people and just to go to those three people.” Says Salmoni, “There’s nothing more focused than a tiger who wants to kill something.” The thing is, though, it’s not easy to prompt such enmity: “To get a tiger to want to fight you is pretty hard,” says Salmoni. “Tigers don’t like to fight. They hunt to kill and eat. That’s it.” Unlike lions, which grow up in groups and are used to sparring, tigers are solitary animals, responsible for their own food and survival, Salmoni says. They will take the risk to fight only “if they feel they have to.”
http://www.google.com/search?q=Tigers+don%92t+like+to+fight.+They+hunt+to+kill+and+eat.+That%92s+it.%94+Unlike+lions%2C+which+grow+up+in+groups+and+are+used+to+sparring%2C+tigers+are+solitary+animals%2C+&um=1&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw - http://www.google.com/search?q=Tigers+don%92t+like+to+fight.+They+hunt+to+kill+and+eat.+That%92s+it.%94+Unlike+lions%2C+which+grow+up+in+groups+and+are+used+to+sparring%2C+tigers+are+solitary+animals%2C+&um=1&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw


Marco Peters



One on one a lion usually whips a tiger..."The tiger is a coward,'' said Peters, 28. He won't take on the strongest lion. You know who he attacks? The little female!'' He gestured toward a cage where two young, daisy-eyed lionesses, lithe sisters, lay languorously side by side, heads turned to gaze at him. The tiger doesn't challenge the big male boss; he fights these beauties, Sheba and Lydia, only 18 months old.'' Peters came to prefer lions when he began working the two species together, a pairing not often seen since Clyde Beatty laid down his chair and whip"


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ENGLAND

King Henry the 3rd:


The Tower of London contained a zoo which housed a menagerie of wild animals, many of which were gifts presented to Henry lll by foreign monarchs Founded by King John in the early thirteeth century, the royal zoo existed for over 600 years. In 1235 the holy Roman emperor, frederick 2, reutedly presented the King with the castles first lions to honor his mirrage to Henrys sister, Isabella, and quite possibly to symbolically agknowledge the power of the King himself. In 1277 Edward the 1st, built the so-called lion tower, a semi circular structure which housed the great cats. Interestingly, in 2005 archaeologists discovered the skulls of three medieval cats, two lions and a leopard, in the moat; the oldest skull has been dated to between 1280 and 1385. In early 2008, scientist from the natrual history museum in london used DNA analysis to determine that two of the skulls were male barbary lions, which came from North africa. Edward's lion tower probably stood along side the moat at this point.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p_S0DVi3vBEC&pg=PA97&dq=lions+were+gifts+king+england&hl=de&sa=X&ei=o5ZtUqX6D8n9iwK7ooHACA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=p_S0DVi3vBEC&pg=PA97&dq=lions+were+gifts+king+england&hl=de&sa=X&ei=o5ZtUqX6D8n9iwK7ooHACA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAQ
http://books.google.com/books?id=maQ83GSNQxsC&pg=PA27&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=maQ83GSNQxsC&pg=PA27&dq=King+of+england+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=37chUfmFBsS6iwLelYHQBA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


Gotthold ephraim


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthold_Ephraim_Lessing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthold_Ephraim_Lessing

The lion and the hare both sleep with their eyes open. And thus the former, wearied with the mighty chase, once slept before the entrance of his dreadful den. Then a tiger sprang past, and laughed at his easy slumber. ' The fearless lion,' cries he, ' does he not sleep with open eyes as naturally as the hare?' ' Like the hare ?' roared the lion, leaping up, and he was instantly at the throat of the mocker. The tiger rolled in his own blood, and the conqueror, appeased, laid down again to sleep.
http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=CyA2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=lion+fighting+a+tiger+stag&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tqQqUZPZDKediQKKg4DoBg&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA


Edmund Spenser:



Are met at spoiling of some hungry prey,
Both challenge it with equal greediness:
But first the Tiger claws there on did lay;
And therefore loth to loose her right away,
Doth in defence there of full stoutly stond:
To which the Lion strongly doth gainsay,
That she to hunt the beast first took in hond;
And therefore ought it have, wherever she it fond
.

http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=djIJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=As+when+a+Tiger+and+a+Lioness+spenser+faerie&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9whUZ3cOomEiwLE2IHwDg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ

Similar occaison of modern accounts that match the historical writings:



PERSIA/INDIA

"Shows the lion as King of the animal world a position rarely accorded to the tiger"






HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ROME







Similar occaison of the last artifact showing even today the lion will steal the tigers food/kill having more aggresion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ


HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


Lion kills Bullie tiger

(Lucia Zora Trainer of Dan the bengal tiger and Edward the lion)





http://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Lion defeats ambushing tiger

"The question whether or not a lion is the superior of a tiger in battle was recently settled during the course of a circus performance at Turin. The scene occurred while tamer Klose was putting Four lions and four tigers through their daily dozen in the middle ring high-spirited Bengal tiger suddenly attacked the lion and the gang having sounded tamer Kose became referee pluckily standing his ground while he attempted to seperate the struggling beasts...

Round 1 went to the tiger but the second, tan than gave his assailant blow had Signor Carnera been present would have made him look sick. With one stroke the lion had almost torn off one of the Bengal's hind legs meantime the other tigers and lions who were attentive ringsiders the bout began to show...making the tamer-referees position all the more critical Firemen were summoned with earnest pleas to bring along the hose and finally the combatants were subdued by means of violent jets of water Circus vets took care of the wounded tiger and the crowd lustily cheered, the courageous tamer Klose told the local police that he was not going to part with the lion whose Intellirence was well any element of personal risk he him self might be taking."

http://www.google.com/search?q=circus+turin+four+lions+four+tigers+in+themiddle+of+the+ring+the+bout+began+to+show+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=circus+turin+four+lions+four+tigers+in+themiddle+of+the+ring+the+bout+began+to+show+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


So far we know that:

-Experts, historical artifacts and videos show the lion as more aggresive and that the tiger doesn't like to fight.
-The smallest of lion sub-speices is taller than the tallest sub-species of tigers.
-The lightest of lions out weighs the lightest of tigers on average of 140 lbs; at max over 300 lbs
-The lion in size (because of his mane), is un-rivaled by tigers.
-Even the least aggresive lions can kill the most aggresive tigers.
-Historically, lions have a consistancy of winning more often.





-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2013 at 13:55
When I think, Tiger seems to can defeat a lion. As we see in the poll majority think like this way. On the other hand lion dominance is clear in the historical sources of this topic.

As living in Turkey where was old tiger and lion habitat, we don't have now.

the last lion  was seen in 1880
the last tiger was seen in  1970

but I really don't remember any tiger figure in my history

Hittite Lion and Urartuian chef god with his lion
http://www.sondakika.com/haber-foto/826/antakya-da-2800-yillik-aslan-heykeli-bulundu-3-2878826_300.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Urartu_God_Chaldi.jpg

Lion-Bull fight from West Turkey and East Turkey

Coin of Lydian capital,  the wall of Diyarbakır
 http://www.ancientgoldcoins.com/images/_ancient-Lydia-561BC-lion-bull_web.jpghttp://www.gezimanya.com/uploads/old_files/content/tn/org/634670770790210000634670771067290000.jpg

Even on the top of the mountains there is no tiger
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mneH1TzOlVY/T8YnHgdCbvI/AAAAAAAAAqg/2rSaH6INPXU/s1600/do%C4%9Fu-teras%C4%B1_21aslan.jpg

The great Anatolian goddess, Cybele and her lions
http://journeyingtothegoddess.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/leopardthrone.jpg?w=375&amp;amp;h=525

Hasan Pasha of Algiers, Ottoman grand amiral
http://www.totalwar-turkiye.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cezayirligazihasanpasa2.jpg

and  Anıtkabir
http://www.letoonialife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/anitkabir-aslanlar.jpg

one of tiger figure which I can remember from  Byzantine Palace mosaics
http://www.antoninaturizm.com/images/tur_resimleri/arkeoloji_muze_turu_antonina2.jpg

In conclusion;

In Turkey, Lions definately kick the ass of tigers in cultural war



-------------
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2013 at 19:33
Wow incredible stuff Ollios,

Yeah, Turkey is a place where both co-existed...


Inhabits the sparse forest habitats and riverine corridors west and south of the caspian sea from Turkey, Iran and east through central asia, into the takla Makan desert of xinjiang, china.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_tiger

(The Hycranian tiger, is my favorite tiger sub-speices mainly because I think he has traits and attributes both amur and bengal)


The advent of firearms led to their extinction over large areas. By the late 19th century, lions had been eradicated in Turkey. One of the last sighting of a lion in Iran was in 1941 between Shiraz and Jahrom, Fars Province. In 1944, the corpse of a lioness was found on the banks of Karun river in Iran's Khuzestan Province.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_leo_persica_Nuremberg_Zoo.JPG - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panthera_leo_persica_Nuremberg_Zoo.JPG



Later I will be looking into some historical means of turkeys history with them, I cant at the moment for this computer is limited, it cant type/read in the proper symbols, look into certain sites, not compatiable with alot of more recent soft ware, but It would be awesome to get more info of there wild encounters and conflicts, for they hold the most definite answer of who would win. Altogether, what I have so far is only the basics, its quite little, I havent even covered the wider perspective of there origins since the records wont be in english language yet, they will be via Turkish, Persian, Latin, Indian, Arabian ect...but I'm confident that the lion might take it just because of...

1.)Their extra fighting experince through Social conflicts and competition/moralitys
2.)The anatomy/physiology of having a protection factor the tiger is without and inferior of being shorter in height, has less of a reach advantage.
3.)There Eco & Geo promotes more of a up and up fighter, while tigers would rarely even see another foe due to the denseness of his habitat.
4.)There fighting styles, methods of attack and tactics has the lion better suited for more harder smashing hits, (Haymakers) while tigers faster simultaneous, rapid and weaker clouting of strikes. (Flurrys)

Tigers only fight in two themes of there lives, territory and rights to mate. Lions have both of those more frequent, and a added element no panthera has, they must fight off murading males looking to kill their cubs, along with fighting coalitions of male lions and rival prides, even in their own pride a lion sometimes will kill his brother, uncle or even father to take over in command, lions fight weekly amoungs themselves for rank and food, so altogether lions fight around 10x more then tigers do more fighting leads to more experince = to a better fighter. The artifacts you have shown are awesome, I knew Iran has the lion as there national symbol, so does the Dutch, Arabs, Moguls and most of india before the 1970's.

From either being imported/exported or indegenous... the lion is known through the ages, on almost every continent, while the tiger is isolated being well established to only asia, in healdry; the most iconic, powerful and well respected animals and mythos have been viwed by the G.E.O (A Famous german science magazine) and have documented that big cats (The Black Pictures/Icons) in healdry, the lion surpasses the tiger emensly:




PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES

For now the tiger has the title as the heaviest cat speices at max, while the lion is the heaviest on average, due to over nuetering in captivity, which promotes a faster growth of weight, extending to 800-1,000 pound tigers, the same goes for lions too can reach that weight when nuetured, though a pattern can be exploited, since the largest lion recorded in weight is not nuetured, so the lion compared to a un-nutered tiger could turn the table in being the heavist big cat speices if properly adressed, more will be constructed later and be further examined, since the book that stated the 850 lb wild tiger has a biologist point out his actual weight was 700 lbs, (adjusting food content) since he just ate a large buffalo before being taken, which fits right in at the usual mod of eating 20% of there gorged (solitary) meals while lions weights in the wild are hugely supressed due to sharing of some 10-30 lions at a time over a single kill, all the data on modern lions from biologist use that method of removing the stomach content when weighed, so the same must be implied for tigers, it shines a light showing that the 690 lb lion shot in the wilds of africa and the 680 lb lion in india are roughly the same weight of the 700 lb tiger:


Emperor Jahangir shot one of the largest asiatic lions on record 680 lbs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahangir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahangir

http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false - http://books.google.com/books?id=szBm5kPeC-cC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=heaviest++lions+serengeti&source=bl&ots=wFRvbuHF-S&sig=ZuagGbhxIqQxGOijivlE4we24Q8&hl=en&ei=3d2-TcSbAYOutweWztW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=heaviest%20%20lions%20serengeti&f=false

And alot of books are still being with-hold, undiscoverd and has valuable documentations on it about the heavier end,



The weight of the lions was of very great interest in view of the assertion in a recent book (by Martin Johnson) that a lion was shot weighing over 750 lb." Referring to the height of over 4 feet quoted"
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=martin+johnson+750+lb+lion+ - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=martin+johnson+750+lb+lion+

Most records of siberian tiger weights from Biologist Mazak: have been disputed, he himself claims under his own studys, that the tigers weights of past hunting records were unreliable, and gave his own consenses, observation and his own studys and concluded the weights of the average Amur is that of near 450 lbs much like wikipedias last statement on the last tiger weight verified of 470 lbs, while the largest only 306 Kg; not 380 kg:


Biologist Vratislav Mazak



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vratislav_Maz%C3%A1k - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vratislav_Maz%C3%A1k

Again, that would mean the largest sub-speices of tigers is in the same fluctuating ranges of lions...but...that would mean 'Size wise' The lion would appear visually much larger, even asiatic lions would stand much taller.

I'd like to belive there are medium (food content adjusted) of wild 850 lb tigers and lions, but its not that its 'not probable' its just that its not the normal, they would be the exceptions, the most rares't occurances in nature, thats like using a andre the giant as a specimen in the UFC, he is neither complying in the fight world and statistically still can lose to a more seasoned UFC heavy weight fighter who is more well rounded of his species/race capabilitys; at-least in the meaning of 'Prime', the "average size" will more so help define a answer of who would win.

The data on hand emits of lions and tigers (mass x height x mane), is basically the equation and proof that matches the photo evidence on its majority as well, since on average we read that Pathera leo is much heavier, much taller and larger in size, is similar to what we see with our own two eyes, Lions are usually the bigger Filidae on average:

Examples


Frederick Edelstein

The lions mane makes him appear 2x the size of the tiger, while already taller, more robustly build:




Cirque Medrano

The lions mane completely covers the tigers whole appearance, either way; in front or in back the lion would be able to be seen, much larger:




EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION

Harrison & Bobbi



A Permanent house, the Harrisons again plan to live with other big cats. During the show, Harrison explained the intricate social structure of big cats..He said the cats allow humans to be honoraru members of their socity. But humans must respect their rules. Once, Harrison made the mis take of getting too close to the lioness Shanta, the mate of a male lion Java, during a show. Because the female was in heat, Java charged at harrison twice as a threat. You get killed for making a mistake like that, harrison said. Bobbi and I decided to make a quick exit.

Its amazing what you go through to get a lion into a reasonably civil condition, Harrison said. Lions will attack tigers instantly unless taught other wise, as they have been at the park. Even so there were a few battles.

~Milwaukee Journal - Apr 1, 1990
http://www.google.com/search?q=once+harrison+made+the+mistake+of+getting+to+close+to+the+lion+shanta++a+few+battles+lions+will+attack+tigers+instantly+&nfpr=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=P_x9UsmjOKOcjALYuIDwAQ&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=once+harrison+made+the+mistake+of+getting+to+close+to+the+lion+shanta++a+few+battles+lions+will+attack+tigers+instantly+&nfpr=1&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=P_x9UsmjOKOcjALYuIDwAQ&sa=N


John Cox of Shrine Circus



'The circus is sponsored by Khedive Shrine, so you can congratulate yourself on...John Cox had 12 tigers and, as the centerpiece, a lion, Solomon. Ten huge ones, mostly males with magnificent manes, will arrive with the Hamid- Morton Circus, which opens Thursday in the Kempsville Stadium... In a fight between a tiger and a lion, it would depend on who gets the grab, Cox said. With an even start, the lion probably would win. A tiger, being a hunter, is a natural-born killer.

~Virginian-Pilot - Jun 20, 1990
http://www.google.com/search?q=In+a+fight+between+a+tiger+and+a+lion%2C+it+would+depend+on+who+gets+the+grab%2C+Cox+said.+With+an+even+start%2C+the+lion+probably+would+win.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Fsh2UpqPIYOsjAL5hoGADg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=In+a+fight+between+a+tiger+and+a+lion%2C+it+would+depend+on+who+gets+the+grab%2C+Cox+said.+With+an+even+start%2C+the+lion+probably+would+win.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Fsh2UpqPIYOsjAL5hoGADg&sa=N


Isabel Thomas



its better to read the whole book because it explains fairly well, who has what to bring to the table.

http://books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&pg=PA13-IA3&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport&dq=the+lion+wins+lion+vs+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.com/books?id=o43DZP4ZrrQC&pg=PA13-IA3&lpg=PP1&focus=viewport&dq=the+lion+wins+lion+vs+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ENGLAND

Johann Christoph Friedrich von Schiller:

Occupation: German poet, philosopher, historian, and playwright.



The holy Roman empire and Schiller
http://books.google.com/books?id=qD8E6XsDIm8C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=Friedrich+Schiller+holy+roman+empire&source=bl&ots=mDrG1nuZFc&sig=3zvT7c4vO21Jgsg3RIkboS1xujk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mhl-UqHMBKLhiALtioCoDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=qD8E6XsDIm8C&pg=PA83&lpg=PA83&dq=Friedrich+Schiller+holy+roman+empire&source=bl&ots=mDrG1nuZFc&sig=3zvT7c4vO21Jgsg3RIkboS1xujk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mhl-UqHMBKLhiALtioCoDQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAg

Because his parents wanted Schiller to become a pastor, they had the pastor of the village instruct the boy in Latin and Greek. Pastor Moser was a good teacher, and later Schiller named the cleric in his first play Die RðËuber (The Robbers) after him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Schiller - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Schiller


A Menagerie, in the olden time, was considered an indispensable appendage to regal state. Sauval relates, that from the reign of Charles V. to that of Louis XII., there existed in the Rue Froidmantel, immediately behind the Louvre, a building u ou soulaient estre les lions du roi." When the ancient palace of the kings of France was in part destroyed to make way for the magnificent structure, erected upon its site by Pierre Lescot, and now known as the old Louvre, this vivarium, removed to one of the outer courts, was greatly increased by Francois I., and carefully maintained by his successors. Here, on grand occasions, conflicts took place between the savage occupants of the various cages, and the atrocities of a Roman amphitheatre were, in some degree, revived. Here the inhuman Charles IX., in whose bosom the soul of Nero was lodged, frequently repaired with his favourites to indulge his insatiable appetite for carnage. Here, brilliant crowds assembled; and the courage and devotion of a lover were sometimes severely tested by his mistress, who, dropping her glove into the scene of strife, made its restoration the price of future favours.

An exploit of this description, attended with more than ordinary peril, marked the commencement of Crichton's amour with Marguerite de Valois. A combat of animals had been commanded. Scaffoldings, reared around the court, were graced with the flower and loveliness of the land. A fiercely-contested fight, between the ruler of the forest and the sole disputant of his sway—the striped tiger, had terminated in the defeat of the latter. With mane erect and paw heavily imposed upon the lacerated breast of his antagonist, the kingly brute, still growling with rage, glared defiance at the assemblage; when, amid the hush of silent admiration that succeeded his victory, was heard the light musical laugh of the Queen of Navarre, and the next moment her embroidered kerchief fell at the feet of the slaughtered tiger.

http://books.google.com/books?id=krc8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA487&dq=between+the+ruler+of+the+forest+and+the+sole+disputant+of+his+sway+?+the+striped+tiger,+had+terminated+in+the+defeat+of+the+latter.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0BJ-Uof-I8TXigLAuIDYAw&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=krc8AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA487&dq=between+the+ruler+of+the+forest+and+the+sole+disputant+of+his+sway+?+the+striped+tiger,+had+terminated+in+the+defeat+of+the+latter.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0BJ-Uof-I8TXigLAuIDYAw&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA


INDIA



“many familys adopted the title singh to symbolize power and strength… the tiger was never considered as a title in indiaraises the question of predominance of the lion over the tiger"

http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA38&dq=strength+the+tiger+was+never+considered+as+a+title+in+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IWaYUfb5HeWgiALTloCgAQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA38&dq=strength+the+tiger+was+never+considered+as+a+title+in+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IWaYUfb5HeWgiALTloCgAQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ENGLAND




RUSSIA




JAPAN




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


INDIA

Zoo Tiger Succumbs

"presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo. a seven year-old lion at 8 on Wednesday last. Leo, who came to the zoo In 1947 and were kept In different cages side by side. Owing. It Is said, to a mistake of the attendant who was on his morning round of washing the cages, the two neighbours happened to meet In the outing yard and been badly mauled by the younger beast, retreated to Its cage which was kept open by the be wildered attendant. Vikram later succumbed to the wounds despite medical help and the 'post mortem' examination revealed that It had died of serious injuries. Including one affecting the thigh bone. Vikram was buried behind the zoo and proud Leo continues In captivity."


Colonel HH Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji, Maharaja Jam Saheb of Nawanagar (1872-1933), ruled 1906-1933.


http://lafayette.org.uk/naw8563.html - http://lafayette.org.uk/naw8563.html



"Jam Sahib of Nawanagar has informed me that he has himself witnessed a fight between a lion and a tiger on four occasions, on all of which the lion won."

~Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society
http://www.google.com/search?q=Jam%20sahib%20of%20Nawanagar%20has%20informed%20me%20that%20he%20has%20himself%20witnessed%20a%20fight%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20on%20four%20occasions,%20on%20all%20which%20the%20lion%20won.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=Jam%20sahib%20of%20Nawanagar%20has%20informed%20me%20that%20he%20has%20himself%20witnessed%20a%20fight%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20on%20four%20occasions,%20on%20all%20which%20the%20lion%20won.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1




"One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'


http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


-In the wild heaviest to heavist individually (the record holders), the lion is still larger of the two in size, lacking in mass a few kilos, his taller height & shaggy mane makes him visually the much bigger animal.
-Historically the lion is the more dominant animal then the tiger across a wider vareity of cultures.
-The lion holds more hatred and aggression twards tigers then vice versa.
-The smallest sub-species (Leo. Persica) has been shown on par with the largest of bengals in terms one on one fighting.

And yeah, the poll means just about nothing, it just shows who has the higher fan base, with wiki like sites being the main stem of mis-information, I can see why people would vote for the tiger since it acts as if tigers have a 300 lb advantage, and twist's what experts say, not providing root quotas and not using direct content, john varty didn't say what wiki says, and the 1909 account didnt have the lion named Prince killed by Mogul the tiger. Thats why most of it says (Citation needed) its only safe guarded by kids with multiple alises erasing any content that shows the lions behalf, and playing bias mod by using pro-data.

But thats awesome you know some info on Turkish historical records, maybe I later I can brush up on some my self. I see a huge trend, a consistancy of wins, the historical records show a one sided affair in who is the more superior in terms war, also in size, weight and other statistics favor the lion on average, as for Prime speicmens, of the most elite indivduals, as much as the data emits a win for the lion for now, I can humbly imply a 50/50 is in order until more records for a wider range of cultures can be appointed, reviewed and speculated in order to come into a well educated opinion that has support to solidify.

Thanks for sharing Ollios.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2013 at 16:19

Bulgarian Lion defeated Turkish Tiger (First Balkan War)


-------------
Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2013 at 15:13
Originally posted by Ollios

Bulgarian Lion defeated Turkish Tiger (First Balkan War)



Nice art...

To keep this post short, straight to the point and nice an simple...you can see just how deep the rabbit hole goes in how bias fanatics go to conseal the truth and twist the facts all out of there bias intentions, in other words...Butt hurt'ness:

Everyone knows wiki, right? Well the english version, has no other then the same bias terds that mod the yuku forums and wordpress indragit, as I previously exploited and exposed them a few pages back, I have seen numerous people try and upload credible information that backs the lion (Since there is only pro-data for the tiger) on wiki, yet they get erased and edited off, while their sources have no merits identical to what they provideed claims, in other words; lies. But fans of both (Nutruels) can fret not...since, in other languages it seems wiki has different people from different parts of the world uploading there own findings, check this out...

(English version~Pro-Tiger data)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_versus_lion

-Erasing anything that favors the lion in its editorials
-Using accounts that isint identical to its content
-Only allowing pro-data and cherry picking
-Twisting facts and manipulating the system with multi alio'ses


(Spanish version~Nutruel-Both data)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C3%B3n_contra_tigre - http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le%C3%B3n_contra_tigre

-Allowing information that supports that both can and has killed the other
-Uses the basics and root sources directly to its content
-Uses a fair assesment.


lol So basically in the english version, you have people from the yuku boards such as Paul, Bigbadbrody, Perault, and pathrap them all with numerous aliases on wiki moderating its content like they do on their forums, since wiki doesn't allow repeats we can see just how small the list really is XD XD, guys like Raja from the indragit wordpress, who instead of up-holding what he says (as stated on the front of his blog) that he will fix any unreliable data, he just banns anyone who dis-agrees and lies constantly using fictional books, novels and B.S data since he cant find any substantial data that would push out a win for the one he chose to back. In this strife, it has a ripple effect which had spawned out over 30 websites that go by flawed, bias, pro-data...cherry picking every statistics like their lives depended on it. lol

Sorry...but thats not happening on my watch, the truth will be told, and the lies will be exploited an the losers who manifest this butt-hurtness is gonna be exposed, no dought about it.

So its no biggie for now, later I'll adress this sickness thats floating around polluting the internet with this grabage of stink lies. As of right now, I'll just sit back and laugh. lol

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2013 at 23:01
PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES

Ph.D Biologist Dale miquelle


http://beta.globaltigerinitiative.org/html/ask-the-experts.php - http://beta.globaltigerinitiative.org/html/ask-the-experts.php



(^Compliments of Zetaboard member Diane)

Female tigers are at maturity at ages 3 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=UxWZ-OmTqVoC&pg=PA185&dq=a+tiger+reaches+maturity+at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EnG2Ub2aHsXOigKV4IG4AQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=UxWZ-OmTqVoC&pg=PA185&dq=a+tiger+reaches+maturity+at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EnG2Ub2aHsXOigKV4IG4AQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Male tigers are adults at 4-5 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZpiXjo6lHkC&pg=PA18&dq=a+tiger+becomes+a+adult++at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bnG2Uc7WG-KpiAL9rICQBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=BZpiXjo6lHkC&pg=PA18&dq=a+tiger+becomes+a+adult++at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bnG2Uc7WG-KpiAL9rICQBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


Captivity weights that matches the Ph.D Biologist studys on tigers mass:


-400 pound siberian-bengal mix tiger
http://gothamist.com/2003/10/06/tiger_tiger.php - http://gothamist.com/2003/10/06/tiger_tiger.php
-Taiwan 6 year old siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
-Dmitri is one of two adult Amur tigers at the Philadelphia Zoo. He's 13 years old and, at 380 pounds, a tad on the heavy side.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dmitri+is+one+of+two+adult+Amur+tigers+at+the+Philadelphia+Zoo.+Hes+13+years+old+and%2C+at+380+pounds%2C+a+tad+on+the+heavy+side.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Dmitri+is+one+of+two+adult+Amur+tigers+at+the+Philadelphia+Zoo.+He%27s+13+years+old+and%2C+at+380+pounds%2C+a+tad+on+the+heavy+side.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-7 year old siberian tiger named bachuta lost creek animal sanqtuary
-11-year-old male Siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/man-critically-injured-by-tiger-at-bronx-zoo/ - http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/man-critically-injured-by-tiger-at-bronx-zoo/
-Kunali, a 300-pound, 7-year-old Siberian tiger
http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-10-23/alaska-dentist-performs-root-canal-300-pound-siberian-tiger - http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-10-23/alaska-dentist-performs-root-canal-300-pound-siberian-tiger
-This 300 pound, 20 year old male tiger comes to the Tallahassee
http://www.visittallahassee.com/blog/2013/feb/15/bengal-tigers-tallahassee-museum-until-march-1/ - http://www.visittallahassee.com/blog/2013/feb/15/bengal-tigers-tallahassee-museum-until-march-1/


20+% increase of lion mass due too same diets of solitary eating as the tiger:

-A 750-pound African lion named Poncho did the job.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/08/21/Bucs/Sapp_scared_He_was_wh.shtml - http://www.sptimes.com/2003/08/21/Bucs/Sapp_scared_He_was_wh.shtml
-Then a tawny, 600-pound African lion leaped lightly out of his cage
http://www.google.com/search?q=Then+a+tawny%2C+600-pound+African+lion+leaped+lightly+out+of+his+cage+and+ran+along+...+A+merciful+shot+rang+out.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Then+a+tawny%2C+600-pound+African+lion+leaped+lightly+out+of+his+cage+and+ran+along+...+A+merciful+shot+rang+out.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named mufasa
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/080909/news_1834359.shtml - http://www.staugustine.com/stories/080909/news_1834359.shtml    
-A handler was clawed by a 750-pound African lion, a handyman dropped dead
http://www.google.com/search?q=A+handler+was+clawed+by+a+750-pound+African+lion%2C+a+handyman+dropped+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=iXq1UaeMFIa0igKi7YCgDg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=A+handler+was+clawed+by+a+750-pound+African+lion%2C+a+handyman+dropped+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=iXq1UaeMFIa0igKi7YCgDg&sa=N
-Leonard weighed about 750 pounds when he arrived in Boise; a normal lion weighs 350 to 425 pounds
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Leonard+weighed+about+750+pounds+when+he+arrived+in+Boise%3B+a+normal+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Lni1Ue-fCOWYiAKUyoGQAg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=+Leonard+weighed+about+750+pounds+when+he+arrived+in+Boise%3B+a+normal+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Lni1Ue-fCOWYiAKUyoGQAg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named alex, west virginia
http://www.google.com/search?q=animals%2C+including+a+grown+tiger+and+%93Alex%2C%94+a+600-pound+African+lion.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=animals%2C+including+a+grown+tiger+and+%93Alex%2C%94+a+600-pound+African+lion.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-King leo a 600 pound african lion adopts a red hen 1936
http://www.google.com/search?q=600+pound+african+lion+adopts+a+red+hen++&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=600+pound+african+lion+adopts+a+red+hen++&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Scooter a 600 pound 14 year old african lion
http://www.google.com/search?q=Scooter+a+600+pound+14+year+old++african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Scooter+a+600+pound+14+year+old++african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Gays lion farm pluto weighs 600 pounds
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1670983352.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar+12%2C+1933&author=&pub=The+Sun+%281837-1985%29&desc=The+Lion+Market+is+Dull+just+Now&pqatl=google - http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1670983352.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar+12%2C+1933&author=&pub=The+Sun+(1837-1985)&desc=The+Lion+Market+is+Dull+just+Now&pqatl=google
-Sells circus 5 lions all weigh over 600 pounds:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sells+Grays+to+battle+five+jungle+bred+african+lions++Each+of+his+savage+pets+weighs+over+600+pounds+and+can+break+the+back+of+a&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Sells+Gray%27s+to+battle+five+jungle+bred+african+lions++Each+of+his+savage+pets+weighs+over+600+pounds+and+can+break+the+back+of+a&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Elizabeth marshall thomas




"In contrast, these same tigers--even the biggest and feircest of them all seemed in mortal fear of a certain lion who belonged to another trainer but was sometimes quarted with them. Never did these tigers and his lion get into the ring together, yet the mere presence of the lion in the tiger barn could get the tigers bouncing off the walls of their cages."

http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA - http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA


Dr. Antle Bhagavan of Big Cat Rescue



"You gotta have mild-mannered lions and tigers," Antle said. "Normally the lion will kill the tigers. "These are just some of my observations over the last 24 years as I have trained some 400 big cats and met hundreds more. By big cats, I only mean the Panthera family (lions, tigers, leopard, jaguars and hybrids) all the rest are in a different category and the small cats (including cheetah and pumas) are in a different class. "They will kill you, but it is not with the same intent and aggressive behavior. Male lions are 100 times harder to train than tigers.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_Clr5RjvqTpoGGwtFpwLOPN - http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_Clr5RjvqTpoGGwtFpwLOPN
http://www.rexano.org/ResponsibleOwnership/Husbandry/big_cat_training_Frame.htm - http://www.rexano.org/ResponsibleOwnership/Husbandry/big_cat_training_Frame.htm


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


AMERICA

{1991}


"Getting bit by a tiger is worse than getting shot or stabbed, because there's so much pressure or force behind it," recalls Clayton Rosaire, who was once bitten on the top of the head while trying to break up a tiger tussle. "It's like getting hit by a car with nails."

Kay Rosaire still bears scars from a live performance in 1991, when a tiger grabbed and dragged her by the hip.

She was saved when a lion intervened and swatted the tiger away.
http://www.yoursarasota.com/section/visit50&cceid=96055&type=VGATTR - http://www.yoursarasota.com/section/visit50&cceid=96055&type=VGATTR

{1846}
Lion saves wild beast trainer Herr driesbach from tiger, leopard and bears

~The Rise of the American Circus, 1716-1899 By S. L. Kotar, J. E. Gessler
http://books.google.com/books?id=VoyOa5mIlI8C&pg=PA147&dq=largest+lion+I+ever+seen+maned+circus+cage+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eEBNUs60I-OziQLv-4HYAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw - http://books.google.com/books?id=VoyOa5mIlI8C&pg=PA147&dq=largest+lion+I+ever+seen+maned+circus+cage+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eEBNUs60I-OziQLv-4HYAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw

{1839}
“At Birr, in Ireland, in 1839, when ' a keeper of wild beasts, being within the den, had fallen accidentally upon a tiger, who immediately caught the man by the thigh, in the presence of numerous spectators; but a lion, being in the same compartment, rose up, and seizing the tiger by the neck, compelled it to let go, and the man was saved. Numerous anecdotes of a similar character are recorded both by ancient and modern writers.”

~John Kitto, James Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=0EsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA539&dq=At+Birr,+in+Ireland,+in+1839,+when++a+keeper+of+wild+beasts,+being+within+the+den,+had+fallen+accidentally+upon+a+tiger,+who+immediately+caught+the+man+by+the+thigh,+in+the+presence+of+numerous+spectators;+but+a+lion,+being+in+the+same+compartment,+rose+up,+and+seiiing+the+tiger+by+the+neck,+compelled+it+to+let+go,+and+the+man+was+saved.+Numerous+anecdotes+of+a+similar+character+are+recorded+both+by+ancient+and+modern+writers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L7eUUbSqJcGzyQGU7oCwDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=0EsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA539&dq=At+Birr,+in+Ireland,+in+1839,+when+'+a+keeper+of+wild+beasts,+being+within+the+den,+had+fallen+accidentally+upon+a+tiger,+who+immediately+caught+the+man+by+the+thigh,+in+the+presence+of+numerous+spectators;+but+a+lion,+being+in+the+same+compartment,+rose+up,+and+seiiing+the+tiger+by+the+neck,+compelled+it+to+let+go,+and+the+man+was+saved.'+Numerous+anecdotes+of+a+similar+character+are+recorded+both+by+ancient+and+modern+writers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L7eUUbSqJcGzyQGU7oCwDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

"1925, Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of 20 lions and 10 tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world - http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world






We know that:

-Multiple tigers can be killed by a single lion.
-Lions have beatin back tigers saving humans.
-Tigers on average are even smaller in captivity unless pamperd and spoiled, while captive lions increase in mass and size by 20+% on average.
-Tigers usually fear the male lion more then vice versa.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 20-Nov-2013 at 23:13
Subject of this specific topic covers as states, titled:

Always protect the weaker animal

Starting off this topic, the person that will lead on, will be louis roth statement of always protecting the weaker animal, his personal experince and statements emits, that usually a stronger, superior, better fighter wins, such as people would think the polar bear would win against anything since it is the largest carnivore, that a lion usualy whips a tiger, or a tiger being much bigger and stronger will always kill a leopard, Louis roth states:


"When accidents happen, when strange animals are placed together and a fight starts, always try to protect the weaker animal, regardless of his species. You will hear it said that a tiger can kill a lion, or vice versa. In my experience I have seen all theories exploded. Tigers have killed lions, lions have killed polar bears, a small leopard has killed a large tiger. usually a polar bear can kill any of the big cats, but i have seen a lion kill a polar bear"

~Louis Roth, forty years with jungle killers, page 204-205 - Louis Roth


So he is gesturing lions are weaker than polar bears, leopards are weaker than tigers, and tigers are weaker than lions.


PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES




Dr. Roy Aronson. Biographical info. Roy is a veterinary surgeon in a private practice and has had extensive experience with both small animals and wildlife.
http://www.bookart.co.za/books_detail.php?recordID=1 - http://www.bookart.co.za/books_detail.php?recordID=1

Well credited Vet has seen larged sized lions up to 300 kg (660 lbs)
http://books.google.com/books?id=mNn3mRSIVkEC&pg=PT89&dq=lioness+weighed+pounds&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ONuKUrXjA6OKjAL_o4GIAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=mNn3mRSIVkEC&pg=PT89&dq=lioness+weighed+pounds&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ONuKUrXjA6OKjAL_o4GIAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


Which matches the large game records of recent catches of 649 lb lions taken by Victor zeni:
http://www.google.com/search?q=victor+zeni+african+lion+world+records%2C&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=victor+zeni+african+lion+world+records%2C&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
http://biggame.iza-yoi.net/bigcat/lion.html - http://biggame.iza-yoi.net/bigcat/lion.html


Heights of some captive lions can stand on all fours five feet high:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Caesar+was+captured+wild+in+Africa+and+grew+to+be+possibly+the+larg+est+lion+in+captivity+in+his+prime%2C+standing+five+feet+tall&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=Caesar+was+captured+wild+in+Africa+and+grew+to+be+possibly+the+larg+est+lion+in+captivity+in+his+prime%2C+standing+five+feet+tall&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Indian biologist and Tiger Specialist Valmik Thapar:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmik_Thapar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valmik_Thapar

"A large male tiger weighs about 200 kilogrammes"
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Dvx6EoLwa4C&pg=PA255&dq=the+secret+life+of+tigers.+A+large+male+tiger+weighs+about+200+kilogrammes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kXuNUr2xB-esigKj0IHgCA&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=9Dvx6EoLwa4C&pg=PA255&dq=the+secret+life+of+tigers.+A+large+male+tiger+weighs+about+200+kilogrammes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kXuNUr2xB-esigKj0IHgCA&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON EXPERINCE


Prime tiger almost gets killed by old lion, similar to what Louis roth stated, always protect the weaker animal, which is why caroll soo holl shot the lion to protect the tiger:




Dick clemens: Also did his best to protect his tigers from his lions:



Five of the lions and the tigers belonged in my regularact. I obtained the other four lions' last Thursday from the Evansville, Ind. Zoo to train into the act for the annaul Christmas show for crippled shildren in Chicago. NATURAL ENEMIES I introduced the new lions, all two-year-olds, to the old lions as usual. The tigers and lions are natural enemies. Then one of my old lions, Tyrone, got jealous of the new lions. He started to fight with a tiger sitting on a seat above him. MAKE FOR CHUTE The new lions got scared and tried to run for the chute, but the man on the chute was late in opening the door. They couldn't get away from the trouble. There I was in the middle, with the new lions on one side and the old lions and two tigers on the other.

The new lions couldn't get out. Then all hell broke loose. DROPS GUN I began trying to quiet them, to save what I could. I had a small buggy whip and a blank pistol but I dropped the gun. We get scared the same as everybody else would. The fight was a roaring, snarling blitzkrieg. The animals moved so fast my eyes couldn't follow them. I tried to save the tigers, which don't breed here, and are worth $1,000 each.

(PDF Content storyBottom of the page)
http://diglib4.princeton.edu/historic/cgi-bin/historic?a=d&d=MarineCorpsChevron19461122-01.2.82&e=-------en-20--1--txt-IN-police----# - http://diglib4.princeton.edu/historic/cgi-bin/historic?a=d&d=MarineCorpsChevron19461122-01.2.82&e=-------en-20--1--txt-IN-police----#


Clyde beatty let out the tigers first so that the lions didnt kill them:



Rightly so, clyde even tried to give away a lion named Prince who made a habit in killing his expensive tigers:

http://www.google.com/search?q=with+Prince+at+the+Shrine+circus+%97+Beatty+tried+to+give+the+lion+away.+the+tiger-+killing+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=with+Prince+at+the+Shrine+circus+%97+Beatty+tried+to+give+the+lion+away.+the+tiger-+killing+lion&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers


Falkendorgh:



Before 1,500 people last night , with mogul, a new Bengal tiger, chained to a cage in the ring he turned his back to a lion named Caesar and Caesar jumped at him. Falkendorgh half turned and jumped foward and the big lions claws only ripped down his back and sent him to the gound; but then as women screamed and attendants, firing blank cartridges, ran into the ring, another of he seven big lions, Prince, sprang with a roar from his pedastal straight at Mogul.

Mogul, Snarling and crouching, was ready. The two beast struggled together, biting and striking with their claws. They snarled and roared and filled the air with sawdust as they twisted and strained, each trying to get on top, lashing with their tails. Falkendorgh, swinging his long whip, beat Caeser back to his cage, but Mogul and Prince, striking and biting fought on in spite of the attendants, and several women fainted. many screamed and one was taken with a rift. At last with bars of iron and long whips, they beat Prince off from Mogul and drove him snarling and limping, his flanks streaming blood and his face torn and bitten, to his cage. Mogull, in spite of his chain, had got the best of the fight.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50C1FFC395A12738DDDA00994DF405B898CF1D3 - http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50C1FFC395A12738DDDA00994DF405B898CF1D3


Similar to clyde beatty who let the tigers out first, so did trainer bert nelson:


http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006/01/bert-nelson.html - http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006/01/bert-nelson.html

At that instant, Ceasar pounced from his pedestal, struck the ground and leaped again toward teba. On the second jump nelson raced to the safety gate while Jug head and the rest of his gang roarded down into the fray. In a split second, the entire cage seemed to cave in, in the middle.

Through the bars trainers fired blank cartridges, poked with long sticks and shouted, for ten minutes fur flew and blood flowed. Remember lions and tigers were there in equal numbers. which came out first? The tigers.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=fCgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA40&dq=bert+nelson+lion+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html - http://books.google.ca/books?id=fCgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA40&dq=bert+nelson+lion+tiger&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


Alfred Court: too, gave a way a lion to protect himself, his other animals and his tigers.



BEAUTIFUL AMONG THE BEASTS once more, such a good master of school, I reopened the class, or exactly, confined it in the cage a new quota of ignorant big cats.  In the spring following, they were sixteen to deserve to do their beginnings in front of the publishes New York, nine tigers, five lions, two leopards.  To the previous one, there had been five months of daily repetitions, with the habitual procession of incidents, of accidents, of corrections.  "As for me, I was injured to two returns, by the same beast, for a special reason: I was victim of the jealousy of Caesar.  Male lion, fallen in love with a tiger of his sex, Caesar provoked so many scuffles, ridiculous or dangerous, that at the end of the season, I gave it to a ZOO." Of course, I always liked the beasts, but I wanted to see them in liberty, also I resumed the road, pushed by an old dream, the one to visit Yellow Stones National Park, the National Relative of the Yellow Rocks, one of the wonders of the, United States
http://alfred.court.free.fr/lacageauxfauves.htm - http://alfred.court.free.fr/lacageauxfauves.htm


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


Just how poor of a fighter is the tiger? No dought he is not the pound for pound best fighter, since he is attributed to be the largest (Pure Opinionated) then the tiger should have never had lost, since his mass/size should have solidified that formality added in with his speen, cunningness and other attributes. So far know that lions have beatin tigers more than vice versa, but just how great is the extent does the expert authoritys opinions upon observation reach? They all protected the tiger because they’ve seen that the tiger is weaker, more afraid and often gets killed and less of a threat than other felidaes in there interspecific conflicts, so just how weak is the tiger as a fighter then? We will have to examine his encounters with other big cats, we shall follow Louis roths statement again to uphold this topic, since he paved the way and stated a small leopard killed a large tiger, heres more of tigers against leopards and weaker animals:


ASIA

10. Leopard cat and Tiger; There is a small animal in southern china, a kind of leopard cat, which is the same size as a cat. It is much weaker in strength than a tiger, but it often attacks a tiger when it sees one. It is as quick as a squirrel and usually lays an ambush in a tree, and suddenly jumps onto the back of the tiger, gets hold of the tigers tail, and uses its sharp paw to force-fully scratch the tigers anus. The tiger jumps and roars from pain, but the tiger is unable to reach the leopard cat. The only solution is for the tiger to roll on the ground, at which time the small animal flees rapidly. This is a great lesson to defeat the strong by the weak.

~ By Jitendra Dhoj Khand
http://books.google.com/books?id=xzmODUiGm7YC&pg=PA273&dq=lion+tiger+fight+account&hl=en&sa=X&ei=34iQUIHyAoXBiwL31oCoCA&ved=0CEsQ6AewCDhk - http://books.google.com/books?id=xzmODUiGm7YC&pg=PA273&dq=lion+tiger+fight+account&hl=en&sa=X&ei=34iQUIHyAoXBiwL31oCoCA&ved=0CEsQ6AewCDhk


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


ROME


~1874 WILD BEAST FIGHT SCOURGE VATICAN COUNCIL KAULBACH

ASIA




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

Remaining in the theme and title of this post, we will examine the facts in how formidable the tiger really is by showing his records against weaker and smaller animals then himself:


(As previously stated, an adult tigress is already at 4 years old while males 5)


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/tiger-leopard-found-dead-in-mudumalai-tiger-reserve/article1452183.ece - http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/tiger-leopard-found-dead-in-mudumalai-tiger-reserve/article1452183.ece


"Tiger killed by leopard in fight in circus arena at Peru"

http://books.google.com/books?id=7k0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA9&dq=Tiger+killed+by+leopard+in+fight+in+circus+arena+at+Peru&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z9uLUpzcE6a5igKkiICYCg&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=7k0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA9&dq=Tiger+killed+by+leopard+in+fight+in+circus+arena+at+Peru&hl=en&sa=X&ei=z9uLUpzcE6a5igKkiICYCg&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ


Leopard Kills Tiger

A battle to' the death between a tiger and a leopard in Hie arena of the winter of the Wallace show yester day afternoon that Animal Trainer Garstang was forced

~Meriden Daily Journal - Feb 4, 1908
http://www.google.com/search?q=to+the+death+between+a+tiger+and+a+leopard+in+Hie+arena+of+the+winter+of+the+Wallace+show+yester+day+afternoon+that+Animal+Trainer+Garstang+was+forced+lo%A0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=8WaNUqvsIMH-iwKJ6oH4Dw&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=to%27+the+death+between+a+tiger+and+a+leopard+in+Hie+arena+of+the+winter+of+the+Wallace+show+yester+day+afternoon+that+Animal+Trainer+Garstang+was+forced+lo%A0...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=8WaNUqvsIMH-iwKJ6oH4Dw&sa=N


That the black ass which is pictured in the " Imperial Compend" is a bold animal, is shown by the following from a monograph of the Ming period on tigers:

An eunuch possessed a black donkey which he presented to the Emperor ; it was able to travel three hundred and more miles a day, and to fight tigers. His Majesty ordered its courage and strength to be tested. A single kick killed the tiger that was set against him; and by three kicks he killed another, when a lion was mercilessly at once pitted against the brave conqueror, whose spine was broken by the lion.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FqNDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=Emperor+black+Donkey+kills+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=84ZXUcX3LuiLjALNpYGIBg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=FqNDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=Emperor+black+Donkey+kills+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=84ZXUcX3LuiLjALNpYGIBg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA

Hybrid Donkey/Zebra Ko’s Large bengal tiger named Rajah…

~George Conklin
http://books.google.com/books?id=FhEbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA878&dq=quagga+kicked+rajah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kohXUfecJOuajAL_5YCwAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=FhEbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA878&dq=quagga+kicked+rajah&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kohXUfecJOuajAL_5YCwAQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


So we know that:

-Lions can be much bigger and heavier than tigers on exceptional occaisons.
-It is known by most who has worked with both, that tigers are weaker than lions.
-The tiger is a good hunter but poor fighter.
-Much smaller animals can kill the tiger.
-History shows that the tiger would be hard pressed to attain a title such as King.
-The tiger can be vastly shorter in height overall.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2013 at 18:09
Testament of the Wild.


Lets see the definition on the Free dictionary:

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence: The spacious plan of the city is a testament to the foresight of its founders.
2. A statement of belief; a credo: my political testament.
3. Law A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.
4. Testament Bible Either of the two main divisions of the Bible.
5. Archaic A covenant between humans and God.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/testament - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/testament

Time to dis-credit, exploit and expose the likes of illogical, claims of supporters quoting natrualist that have some of the poors't point of views defying mathematics, science and basic common knowledge, in other words...

LOGIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

The sources we are about to refute, dispute, exploit and expose are not authoritys but just random people who arn't historians with Ph.D's, or M.A's of having a basic education of its historical merits, an knowledge of what the they are talking about, these are mere opinions that the team of yuku seems to constantly repeat as if they hold merits and evidence of some sort of proof that tigers have drove out lions from india.

We'll start with the yuku teams quotas and sources such as:


Ullas kanarth quoting of Kesri/keshari singh~Tiger tales:



http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA118&dq=tigers++out+of+lions++responsible++india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ho-NUqitPKepiALE3oGYAw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA118&dq=tigers++out+of+lions++responsible++india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ho-NUqitPKepiALE3oGYAw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


Starting with the facts, that lions live in Prides, and tigers are solitary:


Besides rejoicing a substantial rise in number of lions to 411 in Gujarat's Gir National Park, what has attracted attention of experts is the unique behavioural pattern being displayed by two male lions who now rule the biggest ever pride comprising 32 felines. "The Gir forest is well known universally.

This is the kingdom of lions (Panthera Leo Persica), who are also called as Asiatic Lions. There is an increase in the lion population in the Gir forest. Today, more than 411 lions roam the sanctuary," Dr Sandeep Kumar, Deputy Conservator of Forest (DCF) told PTI. The officials attribute the rise in population to the factors like better protection and other facilities, including availability of abundant prey for the big cats, availability of water and overall improvement in the lion habitat in the area.

"A group of lions having two adult males and several females with their cubs is called as a pride. Here, two males together guard a territory comprising sub-territories of female lions that is called as a sub-group. A sub-group is typically formed by 1 to 3 adult females, their cubs and sub-adults. Adult males regularly visit these sub-groups and father the most of the cubs," said Kumar. He further said two male adult lions are ruling 150 sq km of territory and display dispersal behaviour thus not allowing the sub-adults to feed, mingle with each other and even not let them come in vicinity of the pride. "This (Gir) forest range is ruled by two male lions known as "Kamleshwar males". They have established their territory in this area in 2005 and till date are maintaining, protecting and breeding in it," Kumar said.

http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/two-kings-of-forest-who-rule-the-biggest-pride-in-gir-park/943236.htm


Kesri singh a tiger hunter of gwailor, must have missed that mathematically 2 is greater than 1, cant see how he misseed that one, inverse 32 is greater then a band of 4 (the max recorded of tiger unity); since we have covered previously that asiatic lions can rival bengal tigers in weight and be larger in exceptional occaisons, 2 on 1 would be too much.

Sticking to facts, there is tangible proof, this is a replication of what out-numbering leads to:

Eight Lions Kill Pair of Tigers in German Zoo:

(Frankfurt zoo)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden

"Eight lions fought and killed a pair of tigers in Frankfurt's zoo early today after someone had failed to lock the gate between the animals' cages. The one sided battle started when a lioness which recently gave birth to cubs led four adult and three young lions into the tigers' cage. The tigers retreated into a corner before being forced to fight for their lives.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Inductive reasoning tells us, Man are responsible for the huge decline of lions in india, no animal was prized more, they are the ultimate test and a right of passage, from your average native all the way to royalty using of mass producted fire-arms:

Shah jahan, shooting lions:




Common knowledge tells us...In the wild, a group of lionesses killing a single tiger would be consider'd the norm baided by mathematics 8>2, the lioness from frankfurt zoo just did what any mother lion would have done, went to extremes and lead her pride to kill any near by threats to her cubs, (exactly what would happen in the wild)... as shown lions can have much more in a single pride. One on ones are of the ubmost rares't, yet we have numerous times lone lions out-gamed the bengal possibly the largest current wild tiger alive behind the amur, Tigers would have to slink through lion country unseen, quitely, hidden in the jungle thickets, and he still would run a risk of being seen and opprehended since lions are very territorial; logic, mathematics, science and common sense would gesture lions would walk all up and down tiger country without a care in the world knowing their spartan unity would grant them a victory against any predatorial odds:





Same type of poor opinion which the tiger fans of yuku holds as facts:

~C.A Kincaid
http://books.google.com/books?id=jwfHn-eHZtkC&pg=PT29&dq=tigers+drove+lions+out+of+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LpSNUve_DIiEiwLcuoDoBQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=jwfHn-eHZtkC&pg=PT29&dq=tigers+drove+lions+out+of+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LpSNUve_DIiEiwLcuoDoBQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

It seems 99% likely, this person has no knowledge on lions social structure, no knowledge on how many times a asiatic lion has already bested, defeated and killed a bengal tiger one on one, he is no authority, has no credentials, in the scietifical community this information with no evidence would be considered a...joke... its scholar fact that tigers inhabited India first, hmm he must have missed that one before his poor rant.


The reason lions numbers reached near extinction, is because of guns and the everlasting need for man to be the most dominant terrestrial of killing the strongest opposing forces:




In the dry parts of Western India, the lion rather than the tiger was the main target of the hunt:

http://www.google.com/search?q=In+the+dry+parts+of+Western+India%2C+the+lion+rather+than+the+tiger+was+the+main+target+of+the+hunt+and+the+ability+to+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=YyuMUumvNYHQiwKb9oHwAg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=In+the+dry+parts+of+Western+India%2C+the+lion+rather+than+the+tiger+was+the+main+target+of+the+hunt+and+the+ability+to+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=YyuMUumvNYHQiwKb9oHwAg&sa=N


Lions disappearing in india has nothing to do with tigers, since one would need hundreds upoun thousand, of occaisons single tigers dispatching whole prides, coalitions or even lone lions, not to mention the cubs unlike the tigers are safe guarded around the clock, the source wants people to belive that a single tiger can stand a chance of winning out when encountering the head hunters (coalitions of male lions) who guard, patrol and kill off any predatorial threats:




Not even that amount is needed, the tiger cannot thrive when lionesses are the share holders of the Pride. Who always reside in large groups, so a tigress who has to raise her cubs all on her own...(the male tiger abondins the female and his off-spring), how can she manage to provide food, let alone protection for her cubs if a group of lionesses are on the prowl, we are talking about at-least 5-10 lionesses, history shows it takes just two to pull off a 99% victory in a confined area:


Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress:



One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'


http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM%20 - http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


The lions fastidiousness pace of fighting constantly would be way to much for a tiger to manage, since tigers dont fight as often they dont even encounter tigers as frequent, they remain hidden half the time in thick dense jungle, they will have to deal with a constant amount of encounters which would lead to a life style he is not accustomed to, and cant manage the odds of multiple lions at a time, lions are the closes't things to humans in the cat world, they are social x war-like, a constant need for claiming dominance over everything and anything, tigers are not known for roaring as lions do, they call out to their mates an off-springs with chufts and moans, while lions do the same, they are more known for issuing challanges and pro-claiming ownership of land through the mighteist roar there is:



Which leads to what? Even more confrontations, a tiger wont venture near a region where there are multiple roars, but Craig packer (lion specialist) states lions are that crazy and excepts those odds under his own observation and unique testing, using large speakers to imitate rival lions, lone monarchs of a pride will move toward the challange, this is why the lion has more valour than any other predator:
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/10/lion-warfare-majingilane-vs-new-males/ - http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/10/lion-warfare-majingilane-vs-new-males/




More Disputing include:

http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+is+said+that+the+tiger+is+the+more+powerful+and+aggressive+beast%2C+and+that+he+simply+drove+the+lion+out+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=NZ2NUok4q5mMAoDsgdAF&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+is+said+that+the+tiger+is+the+more+powerful+and+aggressive+beast%2C+and+that+he+simply+drove+the+lion+out+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=NZ2NUok4q5mMAoDsgdAF&sa=N

Yet no merits, no proof and evidence of accounts and occaisons whole sale lions have been found losing in vast quanitys to tigers, they dont even have individual cases of wild lions losing to tigers in the wilderness, heres another example of how (Unity) would have lions prevail every-single time, and these wern't even full grown lions:


{2011}

Two juvi male lions chased around an harrased a adult tiger, until he collapsed from exaustion:



He tried despertaly to protect himself:



But the two young brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moans in agony, after on lookers shouted for the lions to stop, shortly after one got a hold of his throat:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk


Exsessive hunting, to braging of there superiorty over the mighties't forest and jungle monarch, the title King of beast, was the reason why lions were more targeted than tigers, although just as formidable one on one, the title was given from both indians and british to lions as the heirarcy, so inverse people want to shoot the best, the highest, the more famed to personafie their own titles:


http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1600_1699/jahangir/hunting/hunting.html - http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1600_1699/jahangir/hunting/hunting.html


Natrually, on natures accord, a tiger would commit suicide if he ventured into lion country the numbers mathemtically just dont add up:




Back to Kesri/keshari singhs quota thats used multiple times of:

"It was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied"
http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+was+more+cunning+and+more+powerful+then+the+lion+therefore+it+killed+or+drove+offf+or++away+from+the+areas+it+occupie&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+was+more+cunning+and+more+powerful+then+the+lion+therefore+it+killed+or+drove+offf+or++away+from+the+areas+it+occupie&tbm=bks&tbo=1

You would think some of these native to indias home lands would be logical, mathematical, and reasonable upon the simples't things, but no. Tigers hide out in the jungle, they use thick vegatation to remain hidden, while lions are proud beast that fears no predatorial animal in their full capacity of their pride, so out in the open is where they remain, it is evident in the abundentcy of photos we see both in, by looking at the geography, what would be easier to shoot even if the lion was roaming alone:


Lions open grounds:



Tigers thick dense jungle:



You can barely even see the tiger when he's right in front of you, which his stripes blends into the thick vegataion of jungle surroundings, yet the lion is spoted so easy because he chooses to live in the open, look at the lion picture again, you still would be able to see the lion even if he was far past the trees miles away, while the tiger would lose a hunter in the jungle for less then a few yards worth.


Common-----Sense



It would be hard pressed for a hunter to shoot a tiger, since he would have to trek through miles of thick bush and jungle, he could possibly stray pass hundreds of unseen'd tigers who wish to remain un-seen through trees, bushes, caves and chasims of jungle teritory, while for lions you can spot a whole pride from miles away and kill them with ease if you have a gun, spear and or group on a elephant or jeep, being in general they are more accustomed in the open and wont run. For the amount of time it takes to find one either or, to killing them there and then, you could kill hundreds of lions for every one tiger. This is why lions almost have gone extinct in india by the british, indians and others who were there to gain their fame and glory of killing earths champion of predators...not individual tigers who can barley hold his ground with a single lioness.

Kesri even states his own consenses and eludes a verdict upon a deceptive concept, he also stated that the lion is the braver of the two, the more willing to stick around to finish the fight, but then trys to pull in a win for the tiger by saying under his own observation, he's seen, 3 occaisons tigers beat lions (which he set up):



Hah? So he counts a win, as if a tiger lashing out (trying to defend himself) is suppose to equate to a tiger killing multiple lions? Sounds like he was just trying to rival what Jam saheb said, that on four occaisons lions won, who knows they were probably killed, unlike Singhs, we know for a fact his wern't killed, they were just minor disputes. It throws into question how inconsistant his opinions are, since how can one have all 4 win, and the other all win as well? The statement, content and substance emits that it wasn't even a fight, with all the video proof we have now days, its exactly like:

1.) The Big Cage movie (Clyde beatty) the tiger running all the time while trying to defend himself.

2.) Roar the movie (Tippi hedren) lions chased a tiger up a stump and the tiger lashed out and did nothing.

3.) Everland park wild life show (Korea) countless of tigers weak swipe, miss, tire themselves out then get dominated with earth shattering slams from the lion.

4.) Gir forest video (Castle films) the tiger swipes leads to exauhsting itself out and the tiger collapsed.

5.) Jungle jim movie  the lion chases and harasses the tiger through out the whole fight, while the tiger throws senseless swipes that adds up to nothing.


All have a similar trend, a consistancy of substance and content...these are all bouts that protain to one on ones, yet in the wild it will eventually have tigers facing huge odds of multiple lions, yet we have people who actually have more self observation an experince than singh (a zoo keeper and hunter), ullas who quoted him (student level scientist) and the unknowns who claims tigers drove out lions from india, we have native indian experts sources and quotas from:

-Damoo dhotre (Trainer/Tamer)
-Kailash sahnkala (Zoologist/Natrualist)
-Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji Maharaha Jam saheb (eye witness to 4 occaisons)
-Nilakanta. (M.A Historian)
-Shah jahan (eye witness)
-A Maharaja prince of india (Eye witness on 1 account)
-The Ballou indian magazine (documented 4 occaisons)
-Jamnagar zoo (1 account)
-German zoologist (wild account in velar india)
-The Gir forest fight by castle films (3 vs 3)
-Calcutta zoo (2 accounts)
-Agartala zoo (1 account)
-The Anwar i suhali (historical artifacts)
-Ramayana and Mahabharata (historical records)
-Nandan Kanan animal park' (1 account)
-Bhim Singh (eye witness)
-Sujit Mukherjee (Natrualist indias history)


All which has had the asiatic lion either hold his ground or defeat and kill the benagl tiger either in indias captivity, pit-fights or indias wilderness...So where in their minds do they think a socioty of lions who are in small through large groups are gonna be killed off and or drove off from individual tigers, who are only slightly heavier on average by not even 60 lbs, yet asiatic lions can rival and sometimes exceptionals exceed (680 lbs) the common bengals weight (420 lbs), yet the tiger is shorter in height, has less fighting experince then the lion, a inferior fighting tactics of weaker flurrys, less willing and less aggresive to be the usual finisher twards formidable foes as we covered tigers lose to leopards and donkeys, who lions in the same occaison had won, they would need hundreds of upon thousands of occaisions (on hand) to show right off the back, (death accounts) that tigers are responsible of killing or driving out lions from india, they dont...all the records combined of tigers killing lions through out all of history is less then 20 in chronological order, not even 1 in the wild where the lions were raised through out the wilderness of india...and the list consist of majority of the accounts being male tigers killing female lions and lion cubs/juvis, while the male lions that lost has 99% of them in bad condition, two on ones, captive vs wild, amsbush, teeth and claws blunted and decayed, distracted and helped by trainers. Its almost pathetic how little the yuku team has when viewed in chronological order and catagorie form, after all we are looking at only 1 fairly fought fight where the tiger has killed a male lion? One occaison doesnt speak of a entire speices capabilitys and statistics, espeacially when the opposing factors has the lion came off the victor in more than a 100 documented cases.


People who actually know a thing or two on subject are entirely different, people with actual knowledge of lions and tigers from Biblical records, Historical natrual resources, Direct observations through owning and trainging them, and even Phsycological implications of there social interactions through eco and geo, of lions and tigers, know that the lions unity would spell death for any sub-speices of tiger, no matter how small or big, powerful or cunning, he will fall to the superiorty of the lions spartan prowess:



~Professor of philosophy at the Graduate School of Core Ethics and Frontier Sciences, Ritsumeikan University, Kyoto
http://ineteconomics.org/conference/hongkong/paul-dumouchel - http://ineteconomics.org/conference/hongkong/paul-dumouchel

“Quite frequently, we are treated to the following anecdote, about the lives of certain animals in captivity. It is said that if lions and tigers are put in the same cage, the lions progressively elimenates all the tigers even though individual tigers are much stronger and more powerful than individual lions. The reason  for this is when a lion and a tiger come in to conflict, all the lions in the cage come to the aid of their fellow, where as the other tigers yawn and scratch themselves as the fight goes on. A tiger reacts only when directly threatened. Lions on the contuary act as if all the lions in the cage were targeted by what effects anyone of them.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=pgjHAeho0P0C&pg=PA4&dq=struggle+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqqAUc_5B4idiALm5oCYBA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=pgjHAeho0P0C&pg=PA4&dq=struggle+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqqAUc_5B4idiALm5oCYBA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


So it is clear that even if you have a individual tiger more powerful than a individual lion, meaning if the tiger is older, larger in size and more heavier... smaller and younger lions can still kill a much bigger and older tiger, because they work as a single impenetrable unit, as the spartans did, and as the historical accounts has proven.


Heres more solid proof that Unity...will be the main factor in disputing any that says the lion was droven out of india by individual tigers:


{2006}

Liberec (Czech pronunciation: German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Kozákov Ridge: lions kill siberian white tigress in leberic czech zoo.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm - http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm


Yuku is infamous for consealing the whole truth, they only show one part, yet leave out the things that aid the lions behalf, heres a book that they constantly quote, yet leaves out the essentials upon the specific topic:

Five lions will defeat five tigers because the lions fight as a team and the tigers do not. The five lions take on one tiger at a time the Romans with legendary strength in organization and coordination, were the lions in a lengthy series of battles against a specific tribes
http://www.google.com/search?q=Five+lions+will+defeat+five+tigers+because+the+lions+fight+as+a+team+and+the+tigers+do+not.+The+five+lions+take+on+one+tiger+at+a+time+the+romans+with+legendary+strength+in+organization+and+coordination&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=Five+lions+will+defeat+five+tigers+because+the+lions+fight+as+a+team+and+the+tigers+do+not.+The+five+lions+take+on+one+tiger+at+a+time+the+romans+with+legendary+strength+in+organization+and+coordination&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Ill-fated Greece! by hands like these to fall!
To bear, from age to age, such heartless thrall!
To drop from thy proud pinnacle of fame,
And live—with nothing left thee but a name.
Hadst thou been faithful to thyself, thy pride
Not thus had perish'd, nor thy glories died:
Had thy proud sons united in their aim,
Thy jarring states made friend and foe the same,
The unletter'd hordes who sunk thee to a slave,
Had only reach'd (hy fields to find a grave.

Alas! thine iron phalanx discord broke,—
Thy jealousies prepar'd for thee the yoke—
So the strong herd of Elephants that rove
In friendly bands through India's sultry grove,
United scorn the wary hunter's spear,
Who marks the prize, but dares not venture near;
But when dispers'd, alone they tread the wood,
Each falls a victim, weltering in his blood.
E'en on those waves that round the city flow,
Thy sons in battle sought each other's woe:



Athenian heroes fought with Spartan there,
For ocean's empire, and both reap'd despair
So, while two tigers struggle for a prey,
The mightier lion bears the spoil away.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zP0EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=Byzantine+tigers+lions+fights&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H5mBUoisJ4eniAKBjYG4Aw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=zP0EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=Byzantine+tigers+lions+fights&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H5mBUoisJ4eniAKBjYG4Aw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBQ


So from romans all the way to the greeks, it was the same embodyment of unity, both people of greece/rome have studyed the lions combat in the arena and have adapted, transformed themselves and replicated the lions superior fighting ways to win:



There are no packs between lionsand men
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM


WE ARE LIONS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tFW-Oiyf0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tFW-Oiyf0


{1973}

Two lion cubs eat tiger:

A state of emergency was declared in Alexandria after a young circus tiger vanished from its cage, Newspapers reported that the tigers remains were found several hours later in the cage of two lion cubs.

http://www.google.com/search?q=+in+Alexandria+after+a+young+circus+tiger+vanished+from+its+cage.+Newspapers+reported+the+tigers+remains+were+found+&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=+in+Alexandria+after+a+young+circus+tiger+vanished+from+its+cage.+Newspapers+reported+the+tiger%27s+remains+were+found+&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



And yet...another, which from yuku only nip-tucks and conseal's the whole abstract leaving out facts:

In a brouhaha involving a dozen of each the result will be several dead tigers, as the lions proceed in a pack from one to the next, while the surviving tigers quietly observe. Only the trainer weeps at the result, because tigers, who are so nervous...
http://www.google.com/search?q=+a+dozen+of+each+the+result+will+be+several+dead+tigers%2C+as+the+lions+proceed+in+a+pack+from+one+to+the+next+Only+the+trainer+weeps+at+the+result%2C+because+who+are+nervous+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=+a+dozen+of+each+the+result+will+be+several+dead+tigers%2C+as+the+lions+proceed+in+a+pack+from+one+to+the+next+Only+the+trainer+weeps+at+the+result%2C+because+who+are+nervous+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


More Tangible proof of the Phalanx

{1957}

3 lions kills tiger
http://www.google.com/search?q=Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+BIRMINGHAM+A+tiger+that-+was+attacked+by+three+lions+died+of+its+wounds+yesterday&safe=off&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=odBrUfmlBKaP2gXoroDgCA&sa=N&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?q=Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+BIRMINGHAM+A+tiger+that-+was+attacked+by+three+lions+died+of+its+wounds+yesterday&safe=off&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=odBrUfmlBKaP2gXoroDgCA&sa=N&btnG=Search


A SINGLE IMPENATRABLE UNIT

King leonidus:

Your father should have taught you how our Phalanx works. We fight...as a single, impenetrable unit.

That is the source of our strength.

Each Spartan protects the man to his left...from thigh to neck with his shield. A single weak spot and the phalanx shatters.






And another, if somehow it needs to be told multiple times from multiple sources to some individuals like the yuku team who actually quoted this exact book, but left this part out:

But the indian guide says: In the real world if they were some-how in the same range, there is no dought that lions would gain the predatory ninche. The tiger is mostly a solitary animal, and a lion hunts in prides. There is no dought that lions would drive tigers from the ninche at the top of the food chain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-yA2qKGfqocC&pg=PA91&dq=lion+tiger+fight+advantage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bsJTUtnbGumSiAKBtoGoCQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=-yA2qKGfqocC&pg=PA91&dq=lion+tiger+fight+advantage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bsJTUtnbGumSiAKBtoGoCQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ


{1947}
Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger named toona 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


More disputing... that has no base evidence, no acounts, no historians:

Jack Denton Scott, "Speaking Wildly", William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 "Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India, …" (p. 256)


Even in the art alone they show what the scenario would look like, multiple lions on a single tiger, we all know from the historical records what happens as the outcome:

India~Lions 2 v 1= Outcome? As above an bottom gestures, run or die:




We know that:

-Lions out-number tigers in the wild
-There is an abundencty of tangible proof that disputes (Opinions)
-Lions have a sense of brother hood in fighting even without family relations.
-Some of the greatest warriors to walk the earth has learned their superior fighting ways from the lion.
-Lions in india were hunted to near extinction by man.
-There isn't a single occaison of a tiger killing a wild lion in the wilderness yet.
-Most native authoritys with credentials in india belive even a single asiatic lion is more than a match for a bengal tiger.




-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2013 at 23:57
Jackjacksonj The Biggest liar on the Planet



Lets expose this fraud. There is no need to source the definition of a repeat, a repeat is just a occaison being...reused, stated again, but why? I really dont know, mistakes can be made, but how many times can one accidently mistakenly repeat something? Once or twice, three times tops? That can happen, but what we have here isn't a repeating accident, this is deliberate, this is intentional, in means of decpetion, the only reason I can phantom is, well...he went through every possible web site that holds information on the subject such as...

-Google books
-Newspaper archives
-Google news
-Blogs
-Forums
-Videos and other sources

And seen that majority of all the sites, locations and internet resources emits, shows and provides information in vast quanitys that the lion has won more, more experts favor the lion, more historians accounted lions dominated tigers, tigers are not as big as some lucrative sources pro-claim, that all biologist, ecologist and natraulist atleast those who have credentials have the statistics that panthera tigris is smaller, weaker, less formidable and will lose more often on average terms to panthera leo. So...he repeated occaisons with cut and paste's so you cant read its full content, and then mixe them along the lines by using different sources who speak of the same oaccount but through hear say or borrowing another sources quotas and putting their own opinion on it. Lets see how many times he so called "Accidently" repeated things:



So what does Charles Darwin, Samuel Haughton, Charles Jamrach and Martial peters all have in common? Oh yeah they all are intwined and connected and these two are just talking about it, quotes it and gets what they can make out of it:

Charles Darwin:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin

Darwin mentioning the fight in:

Edmonds menagerie-->Bromwich--->Which is near ratccliff high way, Englan Birmingham:
http://www.google.com/search?q=darwin+of+a+tiger+which+broke+into+the+cage+of+a+lion+at+Bromwich%2C&tbm=bks&tbo=1 - http://www.google.com/search?q=darwin+of+a+tiger+which+broke+into+the+cage+of+a+lion+at+Bromwich%2C&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Samuel haughton:


http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/zoologytrevelyans-rhinoceros-and-other-gifts-from-india-to-dublin-zoo/ - http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/zoologytrevelyans-rhinoceros-and-other-gifts-from-india-to-dublin-zoo/

Haughtons words, of the lion is humbug, mentions edmonds menagerie, the percent and martial:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MbdXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=the+tiger+if+in+good+condition+invariably+kills+the+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sG2QUo-iEcXToASg0IDAAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=MbdXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=the+tiger+if+in+good+condition+invariably+kills+the+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sG2QUo-iEcXToASg0IDAAg&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


They are just quoteing, citing, and getting what they can out of these two guys incidents:

Charles Jamrach:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Jamrach - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Jamrach

Info on the Male bengal name nana sahib
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WDT19021229.2.28 - http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WDT19021229.2.28

Thats why on all the other accounts (the citers) people going by hear say called, the tiger a tigress (Female) ignorance and miss info, where they changed nana to Nina which now sounds like a girls name. Yet even they’re details are of hear say since it doesn’t match the original (before their mis-info) came out.

and look, heres the info that exposed Rajah from indragit, look…it’s the black jaguar hat nanasahib, the male bengal tiger killed:
http://www.lookandlearn.com/if?search=Charles+Jamrach&bool=phrase - http://www.lookandlearn.com/if?search=Charles+Jamrach&bool=phrase


and…

Marcus Valerius Martialis:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial

"Lambere securi dextram consueta magistri
Tigris ab Hyrcano gloria rara jugo
Steva ferum rabida laceravit dente leonem:
Res nova, non ullis cognita temporibus.
Ausa est tale nihil, svlvis dum vixit in altis,
Postquam inter nos est, plus feritatis habet."

http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost01/Martialis/mar_spec.html - http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost01/Martialis/mar_spec.html

Translated by Anon…

OV THl PimiJO 8H0W8. 18

The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He
durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty


Notice it says “His” and “tiger” again this goes to discredit and dispute majority of the english people who cited it, since Tigris in latin means tiger, they thought tigris ment tigress (female)…this is why historians should be the only people that are cited, since ether they miss-interperted, mis-informed and or tried to re-write history, it mentions only one occaison, and even more so the editorials said martial mentioned that the tiger always won, the tiger invariably won, the lion always lost, pure lies since in that translation it mentions of only one occaison, either they assumed others cases would be similar or they just were bias and put their own spin on it, we know that either or is taken into account, since martial said it was “Not known before" (A tiger never won before that incident).


This would mean that all of these sources are connected to two accounts, lets count just how many times he uses books that merely quote these four people: Time for some serious exploiting, open up two windows, one that has his site here:
http://www.freewebs.com/jackjacksonj/tigervslionaccounts.htm - http://www.freewebs.com/jackjacksonj/tigervslionaccounts.htm

And one with this page we are on right now, and we will match, exploit and expose all the times he repeated Martial and Jamrach, which as you can see, even reading his own content you would have seen those two names right on its text or pic which he cut and pasted to conseal the whole thing:

Lets Read:


4.) 60 lions where killed by tigers, so this Is equal to 60 accounts


64.) “In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”

82.)


81.)


84.)


88.)


89.) “ The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful; in every case of a fight between the two in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent.” (Referring to the Asiatic lion) (pg. 212) - Big Game Shooting by Clive Phillipps- Wolley

90.)


92.) “When the ancient Romans set tiger against lion in the Coliseum, the tiger invariably won…” - The Living Edens
93.) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.
c1957 Tiger kills a lion in a circus --Guiness book of records
-Guiness book of records

93.) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.

101.) In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”

102.) 1900 Trainers account mentions tiger attacking male lion and killing him quickly --Guiness book of records

123.)


126.) The Book of Animal Facts and Feats suggest that records of the Roman arena reveal that tigers normally beat lions in fights.

127.) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times

128.) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times

129.) Tiger kills male lion by find other avenues besides the throat bite to kill his oppoent.
-The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin

131.)  


132.)


133.)


134.)


135.)


138.) "The tiger always defeated the lion in ancient rome. It always won" - The book, The Roman times.

140.)


143.)


144.)


150.)


203.) The Windsor Magazine - Page 20. 1896.
“most naturalists are agreed that the average lion is no match for the average tiger, being not only generally smaller but much slower and more clumsy in his movements”

204.) The Journal of Science, and Annals of Astronomy, Biology, Geology … - Page 399
by James Samuelson, William Crookes - Science - 1871
The lecturer added that he was sorry to upset the superstitions of childhood, but the tiger is a much more powerful animal than the lion, and will always beat the latter. The lion had a great mane and looked big”

206.)

1.     Reference: Martial De Spectaculis 21
While the trainers of the rhinoceros may have trembled in fear at the fate that awaited them if their animal failed to perform, and another trainer was savaged by his lion,[24] some were more successful. One trainer was noted for his tigress which, though tame enough to lick his hand, had torn a lion to pieces, “a novelty unknown in any times”

208.) Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal, Exhibiting a View of the Progressive Discoveries and Improvements in the Sciences and the Arts - Page 57:
In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots.

210.) The Eclectic Magazine - Page 547. by John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell - 1844
“Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim ; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on…”

213.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21. by Arthur Nicols - 1885
“To this may be added the testimony of Martial, from actual observation of the contests in the arenas, where the tigers always killed their antagonists”

214.)

1.     Nature - Page 495. by Norman Lockyer, Nature Publishing Group - Science - 1875
“Martial also states that the tigers always killed the lions in the amphitheatre. The lion is, in truth, a pretentious humbug, and owes his reputation to his imposing mane”

217.) Chicago Daily Tribune - Apr 22, 1882. A TIGER KILLS A LION.
Exciting Scenes Incidental to Moving a Menagerie. Chicago Daily Tribune

221.) The Dublin university magazine - Page 409. by University magazine, Dublin city, univ - 1877
“He mentions a case in which a tiger in a menagerie burst through the partition of his den into a lion’s, and in a few minutes killed him.”

222.) The Illustrated Natural History - Page 162. by John George Wood - Natural history - 1865
“The same Tiger is also celebrated for his battle with a lion, resulting in the death of the latter. The two creatures had been put into one large cage, or box, which was divided by a partition in the centre, so as to separate the two animals. While the attendants were” at their breakfast, the Tiger battered down the too frail barrier, and leaping into the lion’s chamber, entered into fierce combat. Not even the keepers dared interfere to stop the battle, which raged until it was terminated by the slaughter of the lion. The poor beast never had a chance from the beginning, for it was weakened by three years’ captivity, and had lost the swift activity of its wild nature. Its heavy mane defended its head and neck so well, that the Tiger could not inflict any severe injury on those portions, and the fatal lwounds, under which it sank, were all upon the flanks and abdomen,which were torn open by the Tiger’s claws.”

225.) The Year-book of Facts in Science and Art - Page 284. by John Timbs, Charles W. Vincent, James Mason - Science - 1872
He stated that when the Bengal tiger and African lion fought … the Roman amphitheatres, the tiger killed the lion

232.) Tigress kills Male Lion.



233.)


234.) Tigress kills Male lion.



235.)


245.)


249.)


250.)


254.)


255.)


256.)


258.)


259.)


291.)


292.)


299.)


309.)


312.)


315.) The Idler, Published by Chatto and Windus, 1899, Page 316
"there are several well-known cases of tigers having killed lions."

316.)


332


352.)


360.)


364.)




WOW, you would think that after repeating only two accounts, by just different sources over 100 times would be enough... No, it goes even further, he labels on the bottom of 367 a pro-longed list, which inlcudes more of martial and Jamrach…Lets get back into the reading:




2)“When the ancient Romans set tiger against lion in the Coliseum, the tiger invariably won…” - The Living Edens

3)“ The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful; in every case of a fight between the two in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent.” (Referring to the Asiatic lion) (pg. 212) - Big Game Shooting by Clive Phillipps- Wolley

5)They have accidentally gotten into each otherÂ’s cages, and the tiger has killed the lion. As regard to their comparative courage in the presence of man, all evidence is in favor of the tiger. Yet the poets nearly always insist on having it the other way. (pg 497)
- A Handy Book of Curious Information

8)“In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: ‘the lions mane saved his head and neck from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead. -The Descent of Man, and Selection in Relation to Sex. Charles Darwin”
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/165/proof21gner3.png

13)“The question is often raised whether the lion or the tiger is the more formidable beast. The evidence seems to be in favor of the latter for cases are in record of tigers in captivity killing lions but there appears to be no known instance of a lion killing a grown tiger.” –

17)The Book of Animal Facts and Feats suggest that records of the Roman arena reveal that tigers normally beat lions in fights.

71) Despite all the hype about the Caspian Tiger, the Romans preferred the Bengal Tiger. The Caspian Tiger is often mentioned by historians, and was the first tiger to be discovered by the West. However, later Roman records mention the Bengal Tiger more often. Thapar describes that the Bengal Tiger was easily purchased by the Romans via trade relations with Egypt. Roman also traded lions with China for silk and Spices. The Roman writer and satirist Martial describes that “the streets of Rome had seen more tigers then any hunter on the Ganges.” Romans associated the tiger with India. Martial describes a fight in the coliseum in which the lion is killed by a tiger. According to Martial, the tiger became more ferocious after associating with humans.

92) Expert Accounts from the book Roman times, suggest tigers beat lions everytime in the gladiator days.
-The Roman Times
___________________________________________________________________
93) 1865 Female tiger kills male lion in Birmingham zoo.
-Guiness book of records




Incredible... Look how far the extent of his biasness, deceptive lying goes, in how much he repeated just two accounts, but wait…hold up, I forgot my hanky XD…on the second page he pro-longs his list of the two same accounts in the “lion vs tiger battles”…lets get back in one more look:



http://jackjacksonj.webs.com/tigervslionbattles.htm - http://jackjacksonj.webs.com/tigervslionbattles.htm

Here we go:









4.) The Windsor Magazine - Page 20 1896 "most naturalists are agreed that the average lion is no match for the average tiger, being not only generally smaller but much slower and more clumsy in his movements"

5.) The Journal of Science, and Annals of Astronomy, Biology, Geology … - Page 399 by James Samuelson, William Crookes - Science - 1871 The lecturer added that he was sorry to upset the superstitions of childhood, but the tiger is a much more powerful animal than the lion, and will always beat the latter. The lion had a great mane and looked big"

8.) Reference: Martial De Spectaculis 21 While the trainers of the rhinoceros may have trembled in fear at the fate that awaited them if their animal failed to perform, and another trainer was savaged by his lion,[24] some were more successful. One trainer was noted for his tigress which, though tame enough to lick his hand, had torn a lion to pieces, "a novelty unknown in any times"

10.) Edinburgh New Philosophical Journal, Exhibiting a View of the Progressive Discoveries and Improvements in the Sciences and the Arts - Page 57: In these games a woman fought with a lion. An elephant, after having trampled to death a bull, went and knelt to the emperor; a royal tiger killed a lion; and wild cattle dragged chariots.

15.) Charles Darwin, "The descent of man, and selection in relation to sex, 1871 Page - 266-267 "In 1857 a tiger at Bromwich broke into the cage of a lion and a fearful scene ensued: 'the lion's mane saved his neck and head from being much injured, but the tiger at last succeeded in ripping up his belly, and in a few minutes he was dead' "

18.) A Handy Book of Curious Information: Comprising Strange Happenings in the … - Page 497 by William Shepard Walsh - Encyclopedias and dictionaries - 1913 "They have accidentally got into each other's cages, and the tiger has killed the lion."

19.) The Eclectic Magazine - Page 547 by John Holmes Agnew, Walter Hilliard Bidwell - 1844 "Feats of strength are authenticated of the tiger to which the lion can, on evidence, lay no claim ; and of the courage before man, the evidence is all on…"

21.) Big Game Shooting - Page 195 by Clive Phillipps-Wolley, Samuel White Baker, Reginald Heber Percy - Hunting - 1894 "The lion is a less active animal than the tiger, and apparently not so powerful ; in every case of a fight between the two occurring in a menagerie the tiger has invariably killed his opponent"

30.) The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature …Medical - 1850 Page 626 "But the Roman emperor was determined to try whether the Bengal tiger could fight the African lion, and Martial records that the tigers and lions fought, and that the tigers always beat the lions."

31.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21 by Arthur Nicols - 1885 "To this may be added the testimony of Martial, from actual observation of the contests in the arenas, where the tigers always killed their antagonists"

32.) Nature - Page 495 by Norman Lockyer, Nature Publishing Group - Science - 1875 "Martial also states that the tigers always killed the lions in the amphitheater. The lion is, in truth, a pretentious humbug, and owes his reputation to his imposing mane"

36.) The Medical Times and Gazette: A Journal of Medical Science, Literature … Medical - 1850 Page 626 "The tiger, if in good condition, invariably kills the lion when compelled to fight."
37.) Curiosities of natural history - Page 234 by Francis Trevelyan Buckland - 1866 "The tiger immediately attacked the Lion, catching him by the throat, and in a few minutes killed him. This same tiger is, I believe, still being exhibited in Edmonds's menagerie."

38.) The Year-book of Facts in Science and Art - Page 284 by John Timbs, Charles W. Vincent, James Mason - Science - 1872 He stated that when the Bengal tiger and African lion fought … the Roman amphitheaters, the tiger killed the lion"

39.) Natural history sketches among the carnivora: wild and domesticated - Page 21 by Arthur Nicols - 1885 "Many of the foregoing facts leave no doubt of the greater ferocity and courage of the tiger as compared with the lion. can be equally little question of his greater strength, which has been shown by Houghton to be only 69'9 per cent, for the fore limb, and 65'9 per cent, for the hind limb in the lion"

42.) The Illustrated Natural History - Page 162 by John George Wood - Natural history - 1865 "The same Tiger is also celebrated for his battle with a lion, resulting in the death of the latter. The two creatures had been put into one large cage, or box, which was divided by a partition in the center, so as to separate the two animals. While the attendants were" at their breakfast, the Tiger battered down the too frail barrier, and leaping into the lion's chamber, entered into fierce combat. Not even the keepers dared interfere to stop the battle, which raged until it was terminated by the slaughter of the lion. The poor beast never had a chance from the beginning, for it was weakened by three years' captivity, and had lost the swift activity of its wild nature. Its heavy mane defended its head and neck so well, that the Tiger could not inflict any severe injury on those portions, and the fatal wounds, under which it sank, were all upon the flanks and abdomen,which were torn open by the Tiger's claws."

43.) The Dublin university magazine - Page 409 by University magazine, Dublin city, univ - 1877 "He mentions a case in which a tiger in a menagerie burst through the partition of his den into a lion's, and in a few minutes killed him."

47.) Chicago Daily Tribune - Apr 22, 1882 A TIGER KILLS A LION. Exciting Scenes Incidental to Moving a Menagerie. Chicago Daily Tribune "In the same den were kept two lions and two tigers, seperated by a strong wooden partition. To such a pitch of ferocity was one of the tigers stirred by the arrangements for removal that he threw himself into a very frenzy of rage against the partition, pounced apon one of the lions, and, before keepers could lift an arm, fixed his fangs deep in the throat of his victim."

57.) Comparative Zoology, Structural and Systematic: For Use in Schools and Colleges - Page 395 by James Orton, Charles Wright Dodge - Zoology - 1895 - 434 pages "The Lion is the king of beasts in majesty, but not in strength. Five men can easily hold down a Lion, while it requires nine to control a Tiger."

59.) The Eclectic Magazine of Foreign Literature, Science, and Art - by John Holmes Agnew, Harry Houdini Collection (Library of Congress), 1883 Page 547 "Is the lion or the tiger the superior in courage and strength ? There is little evidence on record to help us to a decision, but all that there is is completely in favor of the tiger. The two animals have been put..."

70.) The Idler, Published by Chatto and Windus, 1899, Page 316 there are several well-known cases of tigers having killed lions.



WHOA! So lets tally up one by one just how many times two accounts were repeated…okay…so… since he counts the first as 60 accouns which is just edmonds menagerie faked by him combining two different articles, we add that to the exactly 100 other times he repeated it…(That I just showed) and we have a total of 2 acounts being repeated 160 times…I’ll say it again two accounts, repeated ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TIMES.

I Got the fire burning

And heres the Kicker, I will find out if Roy chapman, and a few other people that mentions a fight in a menagerie (Similar)…if they are mentioning edmonds menageries incident, toppled by the fact that other colomes such as “Tigers vs lion strength haughtons flawed and unproven self proclaimed science is being used, we could be looking at a grand total of 250 times 2 accounts was repeated. Not to mention all the other doubles and intriplicate repeats that is being used will push the overall repeated content to over 360 times he repeated the same things over and over.

He has over 100 aliases counting from all the sites hes on such as:

-W.C
-JamesRedhouse
-P Tigris7
-Just real
-Ernest Wright
-Jackjacksonj
-Captain asshole
-Ayaaz.sharks77551
-Lion life me
-Jamesredhouse 2
-Roflcopters
-Wolverines claws
-Justreal2
-Nothing00
-Kingtherpod
-Sunny
-jangidap.sharks77551
-royalbengaltiger
-tigon1
-Simba
-The lion man
-djlsjaljdfsklj
-white lion
-Slash Bite
-Phantera
-expertsview
-pckts
-Ronron
-King December
-Amnon202
-GuateGojira
-TigerisKing
-ApexKing
-Vetilius
-TigerBoss
-Golden Cougar
-Pradyuma Deadman
-Rage21
-Leon
-God vetilius
-Bengaltigerfan
-Numero uno
-keith
-bigbadbrody

Its clear that Jackjack has "multiple personality disorder" also known as Schizophrenia I like to just nick name him the Scitso...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

He must be just off his meds. At the end of the day, he is the one who has to deal with all the aliases he conjures up and who all will one day turn against him and all be screaming on the top of there lungs…we’re gona get ya:



(Notice all the hands trying to get at the young lad, they are all those aliases he made. So if you ever run into a debater of these names and uses these words to chastize you consistantly such as:

Autistic, Liar, fake, Idiot, propaganda, bias, tiger hater, lion fanatic idiocy, lies, trash, grabage, the biggest, everybody knows, only you, you use the same things over and over, you don’t have any…

Then that person will be no other then jackjacksonj himself, who uses those same chastizing and insulting verbals to others who have posted credible and reliable data. He has beenbeated down, exploited and exposed from every persibn he has debated with, so he has spamed the intire internet from blogs, to forums, youtube and more of his repeated content and butt hurtness, constnatly saying himself that he hates the lion…geez, Problems I tell you.

He tried to pollute the world with his disease, his stink lies and bias butt-hutness, this person is by far the biggest liar I have ever seen in my life. He now resides in:
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/forums/71 - http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/forums/71

His safe haven and his damnation spot, where he is safe guarded by his bias mod friendos such as Paul aka P tigris and Perault, who erase any thing that favors the lion, erases whole pages of credible information that opposes their skin head nazi propaganda that pollutes the world with lies, upon twisting facts and bias butt hurtness.

Not on my watch...the truth we be known, the lies will be exploited and the people who push it out will be exposed. Karma has called upon a few to rise up and surface the truth. This has nothing to do with the tiger whom' I've always loved, and idlelized, its about the kid like fanatics, the degenerates the losers of the fanatic deceptive lying team on yuku.

And their fall has just begun, this isnt even half of the truth. The full truth has yet to come, and you can trust that the truth and the rightious...will conquer and destroy.

So I'll leave everyone with a moral to learn from, play with fire and you might get burned, inverse lie, decive and try to pullte the world, and you will be exposed and made an example out of, this is all I ask of the world:

Be true to thy self:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzQmC3S-mE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikzQmC3S-mE

Alohas




-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2013 at 18:33
PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES






(Black maned lion, the smaller of the Tawny and Grey maned lion at 600-660 lbs)
http://books.google.com/books?id=LDVKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=El+Zarzouri+lion&source=bl&ots=5BaPoruxfB&sig=gvFj5DZBpJk12LUO9acKs5pGZ_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9yeUUpOzHM7qoASdyoLQDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=LDVKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=El+Zarzouri+lion&source=bl&ots=5BaPoruxfB&sig=gvFj5DZBpJk12LUO9acKs5pGZ_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9yeUUpOzHM7qoASdyoLQDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBQ


John Varty:



"The manes on the male lions make them look larger and more fearsome. They protect the neck from blows from the opponent.

http://www.tigercanyons.co.za/newsletters68.htm - http://www.tigercanyons.co.za/newsletters68.htm


Dereck Jouberts:


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/jouberts/ - http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/jouberts/

After spending some 25 000 hours studying lions in Botswana I have come across just three maneless lions, so they are as rare as David Featherbe records in the latest issue of New Scientist to arrive at our camp in Botswana (In Brief, 24 February, p 8).

When speculating about why male lions have manes you have left out the most important reason. When male lions attack each other they mostly rear up on their hind legs and slap out at each other's heads and necks. The neck and throat are vulnerable and a full-bodied mane acts as protection against blows.

Remember that it is not necessary and often not desirable in nature for a conflict to end in the death of the vanquished, so much of this fighting is for display, with the mane giving protection, and many of these battles for territory are won on psychological...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020307.000-letters--by-any-other-mane.html - http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020307.000-letters--by-any-other-mane.html

(Examples)

Lion and tiger Ukraine / Kiev Musienko Vladislav

{2010}
Even though we cant see the lions whole body and the fact that he tiger is side ways he should have looked bigger because the lion is verticle making him look slimmer, still the lion looks just about 2x bigger:


http://photo.unian.net/eng/themes/4014/?fp=280 - http://photo.unian.net/eng/themes/4014/?fp=280

Eloise Berchtold

{1966}
You can see the lions body is more roubust and the mid section is a lot larger and bigger than the tigers even though the lions mane is small indicating hes not fully grown yet:

http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006_04_11_archive.html - http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006_04_11_archive.html



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


(Aggression and Boldness)

We'll find out which beast has more Valour, Courage, willingness to fight and Gamenss.


You know... when you have Pride and dignity and courage, you face your opponent head on, fairly, matching him beknownst and aware, as people learned from animal trainer Roman proske:



"We also found that lions will attack their prey from the front while tigers are like the house cat waiting their chance and attacking at the unexpected moment."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Roman+proske+We+ateo+found+that+lions+will+attack+their+prey+from+the+front+while+tigers+are+like+the+house+cat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=Roman+proske+We+ateo+found+that+lions+will+attack+their+prey+from+the+front+while+tigers+are+like+the+house+cat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

Same as Louis roth:



Nine times out of ten a lion will roar a warning before it attacks you"
http://www.google.com/search?q=nine+times+out+of+ten+a+lion+will+roar+a+warn-+ing+before+it+attacks+you+louis+roth+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=nine+times+out+of+ten+a+lion+will+roar+a+warn-+ing+before+it+attacks+you+louis+roth+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

and Jim murray's interview with ringlings circus trainer Charly:

Charly Baumann


"Lions take less bluffing than a tiger. In the parlance of the fight game, a tiger has a little dog in him. But a lion will accept you as master once you have faced him down. A Tiger never accepts you as anything but a potential snack. A tiger will hit on the break, gouge thumb. He would attack a sleeping man. A lion will at least roar first."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Lions+take+less+bluffing+than+a+tiger+of+the+fight+game+He+would+attack+a+sleeping+man.+A+lion+will+at+least+roar+first&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Lions+take+less+bluffing+than+a+tiger+of+the+fight+game+He+would+attack+a+sleeping+man.+A+lion+will+at+least+roar+first&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N



The lion is a bit bigger because of his mane," says Pat, "but the tiger is almost the same size...the male lion will fight anything, anytime, any where without provocation.

~Milwaukee Sentinel - Feb 17, 1958
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pat+Anthony%2C+the+animal+trainer%2C+has+this+to+say+about+his+performing+animals%3A+A+lion+will+fight+anything%2C+anytime%2C+any+where+without+provocation.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=LNF2UqXzEIb8igKan4CwDg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=Pat+Anthony%2C+the+animal+trainer%2C+has+this+to+say+about+his+performing+animals%3A+A+lion+will+fight+anything%2C+anytime%2C+any+where+without+provocation.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=LNF2UqXzEIb8igKan4CwDg&sa=N

Another Indian sportsman tells us, that the lion, though not so swift as the tiger, is generally stronger and more courageous.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Another+Indian+sportsman-%5D-+tells+us%2C+that+the+lion%2C+though+not+so+swift+as+the+tiger%2C+is+generally+stronger+and+more+courageous. - http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Another+Indian+sportsman-%5D-+tells+us%2C+that+the+lion%2C+though+not+so+swift+as+the+tiger%2C+is+generally+stronger+and+more+courageous.


Even in Kesri's inconsistantcys which we previously coverd two post behind, he goes on to contradict major advantages of the tiger with even better attributes the lion surpasses in which protains directly to fighting and would determine a usual leverage:



http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2010/06/kesri-singh-thakur-of-piploda-1903.html - http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2010/06/kesri-singh-thakur-of-piploda-1903.html

“As a normal rule I should expect a lion to be more open and bold than a tiger...“The lions always attacked first”
http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA122&dq=Keshari++singh+The+lion+is+more+bold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R3BaUfp-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ - http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA122&dq=Keshari++singh+The+lion+is+more+bold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R3BaUfp-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

As for Kesri's statement, that would almost solidify the lions position in india, since he would have the entire pride that as he mentions "is bolder and will attack first" so a coalition will be more determined to opprehend, chase down, and hunt/kill a tiger if they see him as a direct threat via territorial clash. And goes even for one on one bouts, the aggressor (the lion) will strike first, which could lead to a lucky punch/quick kill, as the one who hits first already has the advantages of Ko'ing their opponent:




Clyde beatty:

”They’re afraid of the lions. Want no part of them”
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg - http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


Abraham Cowley:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Cowley - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Cowley

Slaughter shall wear out these, new weapons get, And death in triumph on thy darts shall sit. When Judah's lion starts up to his prey. The beasts shall hang their ears, and jreep away; When he lies down, the woods shall silence keep, And dreadful tigers tremble at his sleep.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=yxhEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA187&dq=Abraham+Cowley+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J6aTUqPRF5PaoASux4DYAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBw - http://books.google.ca/books?id=yxhEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA187&dq=Abraham+Cowley+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J6aTUqPRF5PaoASux4DYAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBw


Digging deeper in why all majority of the past poets have recorded the tiger is fearful of the lion, we must study their sociality a bit more and see how they develop their core characters:


Pride


We all know that the the word pride for lions is there social group name, such as a school of fish, a hyena clan, a colonie of ants, a pack of wolves and a herd of buffalo, but there is a more deeper meaning to his title given, the lion is the only existing Panthera that lives in social groups, and with this unique evolutionary trait, the lion has embody’d something entirely new and different from all other cats, which is the actual defining of the word Pride. A asset in gaining more fighting mentality through emotion and mental estate is being confounded and has been discoverd by the lion, he has a title such as Gaurdian, Father, Protector, Mentor and Teacher, which bestows responsibility, worrying, dread, bravery, courage all which something to be proud of in the end, cultivated out of (Pride);. as is the verdict/outcome of experincing these traits/emotions, this will give the lion the extra edge in going alot further mentally in a fight for he will have something worth dying for, his Pride...he will push the fight much harder, he will have more reason and more.... willpower.


Lets look what the Dictionary says on the word Pride:


Definition of Pride

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4.
a. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pride - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pride

The Cubs


The cubs will obtain something no living panthera gets and learns, (A New Element) from the Male lion :

* Appreciation
* Respect
* Nobility
* Honor
* Love
* Gameness
* Loyalty
* Friend-ship
* Forgiveness
* Fighting experince

The cubs will pick up on a revolutionary skill the existing pantheras such as leopards, jaguars, tigers ect, will never grasp; the lion cubs will have someone to look up to, a Idle, a Father, a Role-model and a Hero, they will achive a new level of hierarcy and knowledge of respect, the lion cubs will learn from watching the male lions fight, each time absorbing information learing how to be more effective in battle, gaining new fighting stradegies, moves/stances, tacitics, exploits weaknesses, what doesn’t work and what does work in a fight, The lion like spartans, teached their sons the arts of combat and war:

.



The notion of the tiger is like Rambo, Bruce lee, ect is not entitled to the tiger, since the tigers teacher/father has no take/accord in his life, the male tiger abondins the femlae and cubs, and the mother/tigress is the teacher in showing the cubs how to hunt, no fighting attributes is taught to the tigers other then the cubs experimenting wrestling on there own making things up on the fly, while lions have there Fathers, Uncles, Granpas, and Older brothers to learn from, comparing the tiger to any human idle in the arts of combat is impossible; since humans are the masters of sociality, gyms, dogos, classes, ect all are forms of social traits…

If it wern't for the male lion sticking around the lions would have 1/10th the fighting experince and knowledge, the males are the Key, the Guides and the blue prints in sharing there knowledge and funneling there experince in fighting to the next generation, going back to ‘The greats'....

Bruce lee was taught by his mentor and master Ip man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man

Mike Tyson was guided by his trainer Cus D’amato:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_DAmato - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

And even Rambo had special forces bestow there knowledge into him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trautman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trautman


You see, all the greats have become what they are from a consistancy of sociality, the same way the lion has a mentor, master, trainer, teacher and guide to learn from, the tiger is more of a hobo, a drifter, a non-social entity and ninja of the wild.

The lions mentality will always have plots and goals to reach wheather if its trying to protect his pride/family from other predators and rivals, or trying to fill in his mentors shoes, the lion will have ambition, goals, a legacy to up-hold, it is embeded in their Dna, they are war-like animals, the closes't things to humans, and the second in line to rule after us as speices of conflict. The lion will have a huge edge mentally, since the more one is exposed to fighting the more one adapts to it, learns its ways and perfects it, to be the best you have to be consistant at it.

The Pride is no easy life, as most fanatics claim from yuku, that lions only play, nothing is learned or gained, that entirely false, some fights break out randomly in prides and some cubs are killed by there own parents:




http://forums.canadiancontent.net/science-environment/58799-astonishing-pics-show-lion-cub.html - http://forums.canadiancontent.net/science-environment/58799-astonishing-pics-show-lion-cub.html

The lion has one of the toughest lives to live, they are constantly kept game even in there own pride, alone a tiger will grasp nothing in the world of fighting, hunting and fighting is two different things, physically, mentally and emotionally many things will par-take in fighting, and the lion for some reason moved away from his genus and went 10 steps foward, the male lion is just as protective as the female if not more.

The male lion also:

+ Provides some of the food
+ Disiplines and keeps the pride obident
+ Teaches higher morals and lessons of safty and protection

http://www.gilladventures.com/blog/2011/02/04/foto-phaves-schotia-safari/ - http://www.gilladventures.com/blog/2011/02/04/foto-phaves-schotia-safari/



In which in terms, will have a positive reinforcement both ways, a take and give scenario, allowing not only exposer to more fighting in general, but to learn how to tolerate it and balance it out, unlike the tiger whos basically goes by the authority of... the hell with every body I'm not sharing, dont come by me, if I see you I will attack an kill you type of attitude (Cunning), also qualitys that can relate to stingy, stubborn, ignorant and afraid of confrintation on basic levels. How many people watch UFC and say, the fighters are cunning? None. The lion emotionally, and mentally is well tied to being a calm and assertive fighter, he is after all submerged in it weekly being social, while the tiger only fights no more than a hand full of times in his entire life.


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


INDIA



JAPAN/CHINA

http://images2.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2007-09/20/7510731-1-1.jpg&tmp=web300&top=0.000000&left=0.000000&right=1.000000&bottom=1.000000&dt=zoom_image - http://images2.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2007-09/20/7510731-1-1.jpg&tmp=web300&top=0.000000&left=0.000000&right=1.000000&bottom=1.000000&dt=zoom_image

AMERICA




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


It seems the little records of the tiger killing the lion, is of similarities to experts opinions, anecdotes and historical consistancy's, that the tiger does not like to fight a fair fight and will kill other animals when they are in their weakes't state:

Tragically, the lioness Savannah, as she was recovering from the drug, was attacked by the male tiger Seatao. Previously, Seatao had greeted the lioness with no aggression, then as she began to walk around the boma, he sensed that she was weak from the darting and he attacked her, knocking her down. With 1000 lbs per square inch jaw power, he pushed the 5 inch canines deep into her throat. Although she survived the night, she succumbed to massive internal bleeding.


(Seatao stalking Savannah)



(Seconds after this picture was taken, Seatao attacked Savannah)



http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm - http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm


Yet even by ambush, the lion (Male) would be hard to pounce from behind on:

“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.

~Sunday Vindicator - Nov 21, 1915
http://www.google.com/search?q=rampant+battle++standing+on+all+fours+appeared+to+be+ten+feet+high+was+renewed%2C+the+lion+knocking+the+tiger+down+five+times++fire+dead&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers - http://www.google.com/search?q=rampant+battle++standing+on+all+fours+appeared+to+be+ten+feet+high+was+renewed%2C+the+lion+knocking+the+tiger+down+five+times++fire+dead&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



We know that:

-Ambush is how the tiger hunts & fights, while Up and up is how the lion hunts & fights
-The lion has more Bravery, Courage, Valour, Nobility.
-The tiger is more rutheless, cunning and sneaky.
-The algerian lion can be just as heavy as the record breaking siberian tigers in the wild.
-The tiger is more vulnerable to the throat than the lion who has a protecting factor.
-The title of King must be achived in more than numerous trials and tribulations.


-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Battlecat
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2013 at 23:23
Prime great new info you've gathered here in proof of the lion's side.
The Expert opinions list in Chronological order is even larger now.  Check it out.

http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/587/Expert-opinions-favoring-the-lion-in-chronilogical-order#.UpgSruLnBJc


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2013 at 23:34
Hey D,

Cool to hear from you again, hows it been, hows the gang? I can't read the site since my safari crashed, this explorer can only read an open up cerain sites...but if you like, you can post the newer ones here, Red clay the admin is fine with abundent an large post.

Did you all find any new accounts too?

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Battlecat
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2013 at 00:07
The info your finding is amazing, some of those ancient Chinese quotes of the Emperors seeing the lion subdue the tiger when housed together in the same cages is pretty stunning.

The list in Chronological order is being updated with all the new evidence you've found and some of my own.  Here is some new recent findings.  Joe Exotic has up to 200 lions and tigers, this guy would know which cat is tougher, because he has many lions and tigers living together.  




---{2013}---





Keith Evans
  




Noted exotic feline trainer and conservationist.

Some of the proceeds from operation of the MGM Lion Habitat have gone to help lion conservation projects in the wild. Most notably, money was given to Dr, Craig Packer and the http://www.lionresearch.org - The Lion Research Institute . This institute is undoubtedly the best known lion research project in the world. This money was used to help http://wildanimalelite.yuku.com/topic/587# - e contact with all big cats and the social nature of lions has been my greatest pleasure.

We are doing our best to provide a loving home for all the lions in our care for the rest of their natural lives.

We would be pleased if anyone else would like to share in this goal.

Thank you

Keith Evans / President

The Cat House, Inc.

http://www.lionhabitatranch.com/ - http://www.lionhabitatranch.com/






Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2013 at 01:03
Wow, incredible stuff D,

Look at that lions mane, whoa...thats a huge protecting factor, even the people who favored the tiger an has slight credentials of being knowedge-able about both states the lions mane comes in handy, as for who strikes harder.


[size=24]EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION

(Who hits harder?)

Samuel Baker:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Baker - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Baker

The head and neck are larger, although, when boiled and cleaned, the skull does not exceed in size that of an ordinary tiger. It may be safely stated that a lion which measures 9 ft. 8 inches in length would weigh heavier than a tiger of the same dimensions. I have already described that the tiger when springing to the attack does not strike a crushing blow, but merely seizes with its claws. A lion, on the contrary, strikes with terrible strength, at the same time that it fixes its claws upon its victim. The force of this blow is terrific, and many a man has been killed outright as though struck with a sledge-hammer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lDUtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=baker+lion+tiger+strikes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KyCYUsviBoTloASW_ICIDg&ved=0CBcQ6AewAg - http://books.google.com/books?id=lDUtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=baker+lion+tiger+strikes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KyCYUsviBoTloASW_ICIDg&ved=0CBcQ6AewAg

The tiger does not, like the lion. strike a heavy blow with his paw.
~Chicago Tribune - Jan 4, 1905
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+tiger+does+not%2C+like+the+lion.+strike+a+heavy+blow+with+his+paw.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=The+tiger+does+not%2C+like+the+lion.+strike+a+heavy+blow+with+his+paw.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

PORTUGESE/SPANISH

Looks to have gaven the lion a point for the harder striker:


Clyde beatty:





[size=24]HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ROME

I have only found a few more sources protaining to the romans, so the list is only slightly greater, but we both remember Pckts rants about dis-crediting people like martin seyers, Ken spiro and others, saying any one can say an make up things. lol So I dug up their credentials and even I was amazed, they would be considered the most highest authoritys (At-least historically speaking).

MASTERS DEGREE

A master's degree is an academic degree granted to individuals who have undergone study demonstrating a mastery or high-order overview of a specific field of study or area of professional practice.[1> Within the area studied, graduates are posited to possess advanced knowledge of a specialized body of theoretical and applied topics; high order skills in analysis, critical evaluation or professional application; and the ability to solve complex problems and think rigorously and independently. The degree is awarded upon graduation from a university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_degree - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree

Lets look at their credentials now:

- Historian Ken Spiro (M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University)
- Historian Margaret George (University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A)
- Historian and Archaeologist (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
- Professor Thomas Gray (Historian at Cambridge University.)
- Professor Adolph Hausrath theologian (Privatdozent P.D German universities)
- Theologian Edward beecher (Graduated in Yale college in 1822)
- Charles Scribner's Sons (American writing company dates back to 1821)
- Museums and Their Development (Psychology Press, 1656)
- Native to the holy roman empire, Johan Wenzel Peter (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to the holy roman empire Cicero
- Native to the holy roman empire, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to rome Pietro Aquila (Royal Emperyium engraving/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Théodore Géricaul: (Painting/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome HECHT Joezef Polish: (Painting/root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Richard westall: (Engraving/root artifact)
- Roman Royal Athena (Belt buckle/Root artifact)
- Mosiac in the house of faun (Pompeii A.D)
- Mosaic in the house of caecilius jucundus (Pompei A.D)
- Two Marbel stone peices (Circa 1700 & the other 1920)
- Greek statue (Artifact)
- Phaedrus (written abstracts
- Plato's dialogues
- Latin writer Aesop
- Eye Witness, Mr. Bolton (veorna 1834)
- Eye witness Trainer Kose (Turin italy)
-Eye witness, Rudolf kludsky to several occaisons (Turin italy)



I’ll get the links in them later.

[size=24]HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

LION DEFEATS/SUBDUES TIGER IN 1 ON 1 COMBAT

This contest being finished a royal tiger of unsual strength and beauty was brought forth. He was called Ahriman, after the Prince of Darkness. The tigers advesary was an immense lion called ormuz, after the price of light. A living lamb was cast down before the two, but this was amore than lindagull could endure. She gave a sign and the trembling little creature was snatched away; and in its stead one of the dead dogs was cast before the wild animals.

The lion was hungary and immediately rushed upon the prey, The tiger Jealous by nature, also darted forward furiously, eager to deprive the lion and to get the prey himself. This was the most terrible contest of all. The air echoed the dreadful roaring of the angry beasts, the sand was thrown up by their paws and colored red with their blood.

They fell over each other, they seperated, they rushed against each other again. All the spectators trembled, entranced. Long was the strife undecided, but the tiger ahriman finally succumbed and Ormuz was led from the arena in triumph.

~Translated from Norweigon & Scandanavian by ~Emilie Poulsson
http://books.google.com/books?id=LyrPlD7n-OYC&pg=PT35&dq=lions+fought+tiger+arabs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOBUtGdIcSYiAK-1YGICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg - http://books.google.com/books?id=LyrPlD7n-OYC&pg=PT35&dq=lions+fought+tiger+arabs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOBUtGdIcSYiAK-1YGICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg

Emilie was known for childrens books, but the fact that this book was translated by her and not written holds merits. (More will be looked into it later for its credability)

(Proof showing just how harder the lion hits)






As goes for th chinese, yeah...they shine more of a light than anything pckts the liar brought, since they are only being taken out of context and not directly comparing what both are capable of doing to the other, its just cultural idenity, even leopards are more cunning, faster and have high statuses being one of the most powerful predators, doesn't mean providing multiple links of people saying it makes the leopard the better fighter and be able to kill the lion more than vice versa.

The experts you provided are awesome too, will be giving it a read later, an if you'd like you can tell some of the other nutruels to come here too, to share any new info, or just dicuss, that way you dont have to worry about things being constantly erased and chastized by Perault, P tigris and the rest of the bias lion haters, I got the credentials of what I posted just now about the historians, becuase I am finally gonna take a break from this topic, even though I said that last time lol But yeah, I jotted it down that way, when I'm gone if the tiger fanatics wanna try an discredit those historians ect everyone can see just how reliable the content is. But when I come back, I will by that time have a newer computer and then its gonna be, on like Donkey kong. lol

But keep up the good work bro, I think you are surpassing alot of the older posters in alot of credible stuff brought to the table, that being I still think. Leofwin and Boldchamp are still one of the best, after all...look at most of the scans links...they have bold champ and leofwins names on them. lol But we all have been putting in some valuable things lately, and later I think we can make it conclusive....if we can double it maybe...triple all the content in its own catagories, then it will be unanymous...as for now, I'm fine with keeping it 50/50.

K bro...Alohas ^_^



-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Battlecat
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 11:11
 Totally agree, the lions strike is harder then a tigers or other cats.  That guy Samuel Baker is a great source, he was an explorer who hunted and saw both lions and tigers up close, as well he won several geographical medals from Britian and france.  Notice also he said the lions shoulders and neck were larger then the tiger.  That's where lions exceed all other cats, and in there back muscles and chest.  The shoulders and back put far more force into the swing, there is more weight in the lions front quarters up top, there more or less top heavy, the tigers are the opposite, there slight and narrow on top, yet thicker on the bottom.  Tiger are more designed to ambush quickly, jump, and hang on the prey gripping it with there forearms.

Lions also have more coordination with there strikes, they are programed to be able to throw a strike in such away that there leaning into it putting there whole body weight behind.  Tigers as a species don't know how to do that, no other cats does.  Lions strikes come from a wide angle generating more force as the strikes comes, when it finally hits the opponent it clubs them, stunning them threw the mane protection into submission or knocking them over.  Tiger more or less can only claw and scratch the opponent, where as lions have mane protection, clawing and scratching doesn't work.



male-lion-striking.gif


Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 17:17
Wholey shit, look at that gif...never seen tigers fight like that an have that type of power, the people who say the tiger is a better fighter just because of his flurrys using two paws, obviously doesn't know Iron Mike. Yup, by now we all know the physiology of lions are built much taller, broader, stronger and more robust, I didn't even know by that much, 5.5 inches is the gold standard, an who knows...smith could have been comparing bengals to africans, not the rest of the tiger sub-species such as malay, javan, bali, sumatran, asiatic ect.

Mass is one thing, but everybody likes height more, so I would think in the cat world being on all fours, the lion must be extremely inposing to the tiger...I read in too much of what Prathap them said about the largest tigers are taller than the largest lions, thats B.S, bengals already are at 3 ft. 3 in; even asiatic lions are confortable at 3 ft. 11 in; so comparing smallest to smallest (Bali) vs (Asiatic) the lion probably is over a foot taller, and largest to largest I dont think that a tiger can have that much of a huge spike from near 3; to more than 5 all of a sudden, there are numerous 5 feet tall lions mentioned, and many lions I've seen like simba at colchester zoo proves it.

an Yeah, I agree with you, in fact one of your newer experts mentioned the lions smashing hits on W.A.E, while the tigers rapid flurrys, when you add up altogether who lands more of those hits gif wise and experts who say it, the difference is significant, thats also why maybe alot of te artifacts show the tiger in a prostrate position, certainly the tiger couldn't replicate it as much or at all. It be good for me on that break, because once I get another Computer at that time, I can get back to emailing, digging through different newspaper archives, most of the ones I showed can be easily gotton, they usually show (Get this newspaper) on the right side of the page, and you can pay 2 bucks or so to get a Pdf if you sign up for a month at 9 bucks you can download as much as you want in that time period, so I'll be doing that later. Like I said, in my absence you can invite kaos, lion claws, bold, leo them here to keep you company...Red clay here is pretty cool...and you will atleast have a peice of mind away from the fanatics on yuku.

To be honest, when I look at what we have, on the bigger scale we don't have all that much, we've only been dabbling in the english language, that means their is only gona be a limited supply of people who translated their historical significance to english, so later I can look in other places and contact some real deal people with credentials. We have the basics in quanity and its not worth disccusing an trying to prove minor details like a small quota that has no substance is suppose to be taken into account as the holy grail like pckts and p tigris them do discussing their 1,000's of lies and repeats like they have the answer going on 9 years now...pathetic...and its a waste of time, since in one post I can exploit and expose all of their B.S lies...while you an I could be finding more in that time laps after all, you and I were basically the newer members of the yuku, we haven't been on this subject 1/10th the amount of time they have, an we already accumilated 10x more than them... later...we will get some scholar level amounts, altogether if snipped out, organized and formated in neatly, the data combine with what I got on the team authroity forum could push maybe 4 pages worth, if they are all cramed in straight to the point... thats nothing, I've seen some historical blogs on certain cultures like the romans, Indians an chinese go on forever, like 300 pages worth, later when that computer comes in...I'm sure we could broadin and magnify the quality and quanity 3x fold. Theres no sense in me picking up the scraps little by little, I'm looking for pay dirt to lead me to that glory pot of gold lol so its better off if I be paitient, and bide my time till we get there.

Belive me, we'll get there. So keep up the good work...and I'll catch you laters.

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Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Battlecat
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 20:40
Thanks great info on the bears, for some reason I can't respond in the private message on here, not sure why, but yeah for sure the lion is capable of beating bears, and I do think it has an edge over tigers.  You need endurence, lions have more then any other cat.  As well lions have the more diverse fighting techniques then tigers, they'll fight real low to the ground, dodge swipes and bites with there heads.  If the tiger leaves its head open and rears up on its legs and takes one of those bear swipes to the face, its going to be lights out for sure. Ive seen videos of tigers practice fighting, and they just don't know how to move the head out of the way, there heads are real stiff, each tiger was batting the other on the head, they just traded blows with each other without moving there head out of the way.

Because lions have a mane as well, they have added methods of fighting, they've learned how to attack around the mane, dive underneath and bite the the front legs or under the neck.  Tigers don't do that, you don't see them diving low to the ground with there faces scrapping the ground going for a lashing bite.  The biggest thing I can say that is a for sure from what ive seen in person, is the lion has a more condensed mid section that is more solid then the tiger, stocky looking, including the lioness's.  As well for sure the lions chest is larger, and its upper back is bigger.  This is almost a guarantee, the lions I saw were very top heavy very barrel chested.  I could actually hear the ground shake as one of the lion sparing threw the other to the ground with just its mouth.  Lions have more coordination with there neck and jaws, they can throw opponents with just the mouth and neck.  There are no clips of tigers doing that.

Also lions can bite like dogs, cats can not bite fast, they go for one bite at a time, but lions like dogs can maul and control and dominate an entire fight with just there mouth alone not even using any paws.

As far as the height is concerned sometimes tigers can be taller, and longer, I saw several that were at a place, but these tigers were all narrow and long in there bodies.  And you have mixed siberian in captivity, so that gives some height and paw size to the captive tigers.  Also captive tigers can grow even larger skulls and bones as well being neutered.
As far as height, from what Ive heard, yes the lion has that advantage, plus it holds its self taller, but its generally going to have an average of a couple of inches in length in the arms.  The tiger seems to have a few inches width in the lower wrist area, forearms, and biceps. But at the same time the lions bones are harder then the tigers, so its like getting hit with a metal rod when they strike you.
But I would say it is possible from some data that a tall lion could have a 5 inch difference in height over a shorter tiger.  But thats not usually going to happen.  It should usually on average be a few inches.

But for sure this is a fact, the lions mid section chest and back, is thicker then the tigers, its built like armor.  Tigers when not gorged look like long narrow cats in there whole body.  As well tigers have very thin narrow rear quarters and legs, the lions female and males that I saw had more muscular rear quarters and legs, but the tigers rear quarters were longer.

I agree about the mane as well, for sure its a factor, sometimes a huge a factor, there are so many video clips available showing it work, and countless eyewitnesses seeing the mane work.  Lions are designed for combat and endurance, there lower limbs are designed to chase and run longer patrolling there territory, and there bodies are like tanks, barrel chested to take abuse from opponents. The whole mid section upper back the lattisimus dori muscles, shoulders and mane are designed to repel blows.  This was clear from what I saw in person.  Tigers are not designed like this.  Think of house cats, there slender and sleek in the mid section, designed for grace and stealth and agility, this is how most cats are including the tiger, the tiger is just larger, and has muscular lower arms.  But other then that, tigers have a typical cats design, designed for the purpose of grace and stealth.  Which gives them a body speed advantage over the lion.

Lions are designed the opposite, not for grace or agility but for fighting, so they can unleash more powerful blows, and in return have the body that can with stand them.  There physique and design because of it actually slows them down as such a bit.  But with that said, lions have more built in evasion techniques, including with there whole bodies.

But great info, you've found a lot of new stuff, very legit.  Keep it coming.




Posted By: Prime
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2013 at 22:41
In due time, I just un-covered 2 major things:

1.) That the Baroda account is probably a fake since its similaritys are too matching to a writer that managed to write numerous occaisons of animal fights like his Gorilla and lion fight:


I don’t know how these storys got onto to newspaper articles, but they managed to be spread on multiple braches...

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary+lion+gorilla+Star.%29+In+gloomy+recesses+of+the+primeval+forests+still+to+be+found+In+Central+Africa+there&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary+lion+gorilla+Star.%29+In+gloomy+recesses+of+the+primeval+forests+still+to+be+found+In+Central+Africa+there&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Yet you know me, I am a keen observer of (Chronology) that story was already written on multiple books.


Once a Week by: Eneas Sweetland Dallas Bradbury & Evans, 1863

[colo=red]Heres the missing part the newspaper stations were missing:

I paused in my efforts to extricate myself, and listened. Again and again my name was called loudly, distinctly, and earnestly.

"John, John!" It was the voice of my wife whom I had left safely at home in London.

"John, John! Wake up, will you? You've got the nightmare, and have fallen out of bed! John, John, do get up, dear! You've dragged all the bedclothes down on the floor with you. You've rolled yourself up in them so tightly that I can't get you out. You'll be smothered if you don't wake up. Oh dear! oh dear me 1 Wake up, you great stupid, do!"

"Bless my soul!" said I. "How fortunate— how curious it is, too, that you should have come to my rescue so opportunely. It was very kind of you, and so courageous besides! When did you arrive out 1—Do you know I was wondering, just as I was tumbling into this horrid pit, why the gorilla's wife didn't come to his assistance. You know she might have done it easily and safely enough, for the lion wouldn't have let go his hold, and if she had sprung on his back she might have enabled her husband to freshen his grip. They might have quickly strangled him between them. Is it not cu—"

"My goodness gracious me!" said my wife, interrupting me. '' What stuff and nonsense are

you talking? Lions and gorillas !

http://books.google.com/books?id=A_VMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=gorilla+lion+Oh,+do+wake+up!+Youve+got+the+nightmare,+and+fallen+out+of+bed!&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LZ2aUtSEEsz0oATO_oDQDw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA - http://books.google.com/books?id=A_VMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=gorilla+lion+Oh,+do+wake+up!+You've+got+the+nightmare,+and+fallen+out+of+bed!&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LZ2aUtSEEsz0oATO_oDQDw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA



lol, it was all a dream, and the story is a fake, some mook probably cut it out and reported it as a real event, that’s why multiple newspaper acrhcives unbeknownst printed their copy and look at the end, nonsense XD XD Isint that the word Pckts uses like a hundred times a day? Karma lol.

-The head line Extraodinary combat is way to similar to the baroda and gorilla fight.
-The content, penmenship and writing style is again too similar.
-The years they came out are way to close to be another writer.


LION AGAINST TIGER An Extraordinary Combat In Which The King Of Beasts

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary%20vanquished%20A%20fairly%20fought%20battle%20between%20lion%20and%20tiger,%20however&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N - http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary%20vanquished%20A%20fairly%20fought%20battle%20between%20lion%20and%20tiger,%20however&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


This writer also has a account where a horse defeats a tiger, same writing style, same content in india, a monarch ruler, same type of hard-boiled substance, and exact same year as the baroda account artcile. Baroda is a fake. That would mean even less fights have been recorded through out history of tigers defeating lions, and they lost their most valuable one their only fairly fought fight with a male lion...sad. I'll just dig through the book archives later an I know I'll find a older book on that occaisons than the newspaper articles. And that will be the end of it.



2.) I Did however find a valuable, reliable account of a tiger beating a lion, that no one on yuku has ever presented, and I'm not going to share it...muwha ha ha, muuwaha ha ha haa, that goes to show how Karma plays a role in life, how could I have found it so fast, when the whole tiger supporting team of over 8 members on yuku like Prathap, Perault, Peter, P tigris, Pckts ect ect all members for over 7 years, who constantly repeat the same 14 accounts of poor substance and repeat them in over 300 repeated different sources and not find what I found? Karma...thats why. they are so fixiated and bias, they will hold on to lies which will ubstruct them of finding the truth. The only one I slightly trust at this point is Peter, and unless he wants to cut in a deal, a trade for a trade, I know he knows alot more accounts of lions killing tigers, he was the one to say one of the tigers in alan golds act was killed by his lions...but as usual he never provides any links to the lion victorys, yet he remains with his; a tiger can beat a lion 8/10 times. lol With what records?

Later I will cut a deal with him and provide a link and photo of the event...if he shares a account he never presented and halfly consealed himself...other wise he can go find it himself, and if they haven't found it by now going on over 7 years, I dought they ever will.

But it truely is hard pressed to find a fair fight of a tiger winning, or why would jackjacksonj repeat 2 main accounts over 160 times? Heck theres more than a 100 cases lions have killed tigers, an less than 20 of vice versa. Beatty alone has just about 50 in one crack. 15 from the roman arenas, 10 from india 4 From jam saheb, 4 from Rudolf kludsky, 3 from altoona mirror, probably 4 from dave hoover and theres your hundred right there, and thats not even the whole list, not to mention more should be looked into books on Terrell and Nelson, since they have seen many times lions beat tigers and had the biggest acts behind beatty, so I'm sure here and there will have some death an defeating accounts from those two alone.

But we'll see, I am 100% confident I can atleast double the amount of death accounts later, and the amount we have now to the understanding how the whole statistics in how they stack up, I'm sure I'll find a few more of tigers winning, but it wont be much atleast thats what the data already suggest. I know where to look, its just this computer is not compatible. So instead of picking up bread crubs, I'm gona wait to I hit the bakery. lol

We'll see.

-------------
Be honset to thy self!


Posted By: Battlecat
Date Posted: 01-Dec-2013 at 09:49
Yeah one of those accounts sounds like a story not a real event. 

Ive noticed that, it seems a lot of the tigers side expert opinions are many repeated newspaper articles with a random person pretty much just saying they think the tiger is more powerful or impressive then the lion, more of an a opinion.  Some of the trainers have quotes that don't sound that legit either, there is a lot of holes in what there saying.  They have a trainer named Old Andrew, who says hes slapped around a lion 2 3rds grown but yet there is no way he could do that to a tiger.  That is completely false, there are loads of tigers that aren't full grown that people can play with and tame, and there much better natured as well for being used in circuses. Then after that the trainer says a tiger can always beat a lion because the lion is always lazy like a dog, the tiger never is.  This is just ridiculous.  Even Pat Anthony is quoted as saying the lion will fight anything, anytime anywhere without provocation.

As well, I found out from a description of Anthony's act, he did not mix the cats that much at all, but he did the tigers separately with lioness's, and some male lions alone in the arena at that end.  So how could he see that many fights.  Also the most male lions you can see in his acts in pics is only one or 2, usually just one.  Probably he only trust like on good natured male, the rest are a bunch of tigers and lioness's.

Not every one mixed the cats, some worked with both species but they didn't mix them like Terrell, Beatty, Nelson, Hoover, Peters, and others.  Beatty may have mixed them the most.  Sometimes Beatty had more lions in the cage, sometimes not, but Nelson and Hoover are both quoted as saying they used and even amount of tigers and lions.  That's pretty big, because it proves the lions weren't just winning because there were more in number.  I think Trevor Bale used more tigers in his act, Dohtre as well, and both those guys saw the lion come out on top. Alan Gold had the biggest mix act in the 80s, at that time they weren't mixing the cats as much, but hew was trying too, it said he was going for 20 or so in the cage which was a lot for then.  And just like Beatty he saw the tiger nervous and vulnerable when fights broke out, there just not wired like lions, lions according to one trainer that Peter mentioned said they actually enjoy the fighting they don't even care if they loose, they just want to fight.

So it isn't that when there is a gang up its because the lions want to always help the other lion, its because they instinctively just can't help but to join in the nearest fight.
It is important to note though to be fair, that there were more tiger deaths in Beatty's act because of the ganging up of lions.  But this is where tiger fans make the mistake of thinking that is the only reason the lions are killing tigers or the only reason there winning.  No, because Beatty also says he saw the lion win 9 out of 10 times in an even fight.  Marco Peters said in a one on one the lion wins.  Terrell said the lion always wins.  The reason though as well you might get less deaths in one on ones, isn't because the lion can't kill the tiger, but because in a one on one, its much easier for the trainer such as Beatty to stop it in time before there is a death.  But its almost impossible to stop a big gang fight with multiple cats all going at it, every one for its self, at that point many trainers have to get out of the cage to save there very life, and poke sticks through the bars, spray the hose and fire blanks through the cage.

Because we have accounts of lions killing tigers very quickly one on one, Ceasar killed to tigers instantly.  Both male tigers in the bigcage were killed so fast they had to use a 3rd to get more footage.  And even in the 3rd fight, the lion won the first round making the tiger submit, and that lion seen in that fight was not a noted lion, Beatty had many powerful lions he could of used that would of destroyed that tiger.

I think the trainers are the ones that really know, particularly the mix cat trainers.  I found out another guy they were using to favor the tiger Gunther Williams who is a good trainer, is actually not a lion trainer, and he didn't like lions and hated when people called him a lion trainer.  He said I have to get some goddamn lions so people will know I actually am a lion trainer.  I saw a doc on him, and he has all tigers for Ringling, no lions.  Eventually he got one small lion and a lioness to walk around with separate from the tigers.  His quotes are about as valid as Maybel Starks, who like you said had tigers the size of dogs.  As well Terrell Jacobs had to save her life, as she was almost killed by lions.  She could not work with lions yet Terrell could, and he she didn't like lions at all.

Some of the other trainers quotes also don't sound legit, saying things like a tiger can beat a lion the best day a lion ever saw.  That sounds kind of bias and dumb, like oh yeah my dad can whip your dad with his hands tied behind his back.  Another trainer said a lion can beat a tiger faster then saying lets have a drink.  Again, stupid, everyone knows its not that easy, that guy probably had one to many drinks him self.  Proske all though a tiger fan admittedly, did not say who would win in a fight, yet gave evidence for the lions side.  Courtney Cooper again an admitted tiger fan also gave more evidence for the lions side.

On the whole Pcts or who ever he is Bigbadbrody, tried to say he had like 12 trainers in total.  But he did not really have 12 mix cat trainers.  Its more like less then 10, if that, because he wouldn't give quotes backing up the rest of the names or links.  Yet I mentioned over 20 trainers and mix cat sources, that is over double the amount of mix cat sources he has, in favor of the lion, that's pretty big.  The only source out of the over 20 I mentioned that wasn't exactly a trainer was Noel Marshall from the movie Roar and Tippi Hedren, and Harrison and Bobbie from out of Africa.  But both those sources guess what, mixed the cats, and when they did, the lion came out on top.  Both Tippi and Noel actually became there own trainers living with the cats, mixing them on there property in there house, that is big, that kind of exposure, not even Beatty was doing that.  The saw the tiger being afraid of many numerous odd things, large siberians to be exact, and the lions constantly were fighting, and the toughest cat was the lion that protected even one of the Siberians from the other lions. 
Harrison and Bobbie would of used trainers as well for out of Africa because they said they were trying to work with the lions much to there dismay to get them not to attack the tigers, yet they still did, instantly, that was a great find.  Now if you check out of Africa they don't have them mixed together, and they show trainers getting in with a large siberian, but they don't show any one getting in the cage with the lion there.  And when they feed the lion at out of Africa, just like what I witnessed it starts roaring and growling at the trainer through the fence.  One of the cats is more aggressive and its not the tiger.



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