Lions vs. Tigers

Absolutely true. Bears, whatever polars, grizzlies or Kodiacs, are disappointing when fighting, in contradiction with the image provided by Lairwebb: always hugging, never striking. At this point, bears let down same as tigers, fighting on two legs and not going at it with their paws and mouths.

The counterpoint are cougars, leopards and above all male lions. Cougars and leopards take profit of the unmatched agility to bite and hurt their foes most vulnerable areas such as the neck and throat. Male lions in addition use their devastating striking strength, their fighting skills and experience, their fast dog-like biting style to destroy their opponents, being at same time hyper-protected in their neck and belly areas by their formidable manes.

I see Carnivora as the continuation of Yuku lion vs tiger forum without disguise. In yuku mods like Perrault or Peter tried to offer an appearance of moderation and rigour but it was only that, appearance. These two guys, especially the second, had a lot of info, some of it of certain quality, but used it only to favor tiger and twist facts.

At least now, Carnivora does not convince anyone, while the old Yuku could be considered as a more powerful propagandistic tool in favor of tiger as a Korean nationalistic symbol. A more refined too on the same direction of faking and twisting facts was the so-called Premier League.

Hi Prime:

What do you think about an old, mysterious poster called Carnivora who wrote things like these:

"Face off, lairweb and more
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All,
My contact here is really to address a few misconceptions being aimed at the media above.

First you must understand that most leading zoologists within this field will not usually debate such subject matter within their work at all.
Indeed, the vast chaos of nature does not really support an accurate assessment to the finite levels demanded here.
The main drive behind this type of subject matter is more usually used as a light hearted side subject in order to generate the interest of budding zoologists of tender years, or in the case of "face off", to create an unusual, ground breaking program, which is strongly targeting a "young buck" audience.

Therefore a reasonable level of insensitivity and a good smattering of humour would be advised.

I can tell you that the "Lairweb" site is a great piece of work.
You must remember that Maxine set out to create a site for the tiger enthusiast, where most of the content deals with conservation issues, and excellent facts and figures.
Again, Maxine ran the "Face off" section as a light hearted side issue and even allowed a feedback page for which she should be commended.
Suggestions here that Maxine is some sort of inverse lion conservationist, is utter toss as is the idea of some kind of link with Lairweb.

I have advised in small part for both media and can give you full assurance that there is no link other than a slight cross over between the media by 2 zoologists which actually slightly differed in view point on one issue.

So with an open mind and personal misconceptions removed, I may be prepared to answer a few specific questions over the coming week.

Warm regards C.

Lion versus tiger
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Absinthe,
Much of the information regarding comparison here is erroneous.

Specifics on weights, stamina and lung capacity has never been accurately compared by academic study either in the field or out of it, despite what many try to put over.

Simply, no research group or single scientist will compare the animal within his research topic/grant.
The individual will be involved with specific detail, focussed on that particular species, its environment, conservation and life style. Far more important issues are usually addressed and research funders will certainly not be interested in finding the answers which you seek.
With this in mind, comparison issues are usually homemade theories which have been "add hocked" to suit the enthusiast of the species.
However, you asked my opinion based on my experience of these 2 species and I will give it.

My observations conclude that the tiger is the slightly larger and more aggressive of the 2 species but it would be found considerably wanting in a fight with the African plains lion.

Recent research has revealed quite astonishing facts of the Tom lion’s genetic code which allows it to instinctively think out a fight with another similar adversary.
The tiger’s instinct is fine tuned to track, and quickly subdue a multitude of prey stock.
Its ability to read the lie of the land and to blend into its surroundings is unmatched across the entire spectrum of mammalian zoology.
Its instinct for this is genetic as much as it is learnt and within this parameter, it is unmatched.
The Tom lion is equally genetically programmed and fine tuned but not in its predation instinct.There is some element of the predator associated with all carnivorous mammals but it is its ability to fight which really sets it apart from other species.

Tom lions will travel many miles to seek out a suitable pride.
They will often cover most of the ground quite quickly, sustaining themselves on meagre but regular pickings.
However, once the scent of a pride is picked up, the animal will slow its movement.
The travelling pair will approach the protecting pride Tom in slow motion for as much as 3 miles.
They are aware that they need to conserve every ounce of their capacity.
The pair will arrive lean, fit and without any element of fatigue.
Happy with all, they will mount their challenge. It needs to be correctly judged and must be considerable.
The resident Tom will be well fed and provided for by its mates.
His testosterone level will be abundant and he will be prepared to die for his right to mate and service of food.
This level of intensity for battle is unmatched in the animal kingdom across all species and at the very least, will put the animal into the arena in the best possible preparation.
Together with this and similar weaponry and brawn of a tiger, the Tom lion will defeat the tiger.
The tiger will certainly fight but his experience and genetic trait is based on its ability as a hunter.
The tiger will thus employ his hunting skills into his fight.
Here, the tiger will drive in hard and lash out in fury as if trying to take down his prey but from an unusual front on meeting where he has not employed his stealth tactics.
The lion Tom is thus advantaged.
His approach has not tapped his lactic acid fuel to any great extent. His arterial supply is more controlled.
The lion will even employ his mane to act as a buffer to canines’ lock-on and will suffer the dreadful pain in order to sap his opponent’s strengths.
From here he will rest under extreme suffering but preparing for a counter assault.
These actions are specific to the Tom lion and are not present in current zoological life forms.
The lifestyle of the plains has evolved something quite extraordinary within this regard.
The Tom lion is a dreadful and calculating beast.
I hope this answers your specific.
Regards C.
Re: Carnivora
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Abs, I’m glad that you feel that my 24 years of field experience with carnivores, meets with your approval.
I doubt all will agree and I will be most happy if this is the case.

My view is entirely personal but appears to mirror the view of most zoologists involved with cat species.
C.
Reply to Brown tom
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Brown, you put forward good questions and I am surprised and refreshed by the level of intelligence found amongst this debate.
You are correct that the view of lion being more aggressive seems to prevail on this site and Lairweb in particularly.
This is incorrect!
The tiger in response to unsettling, almost always arrives at greater aggression shown.
This maybe out of fear but more aggression is the result, indeed blind fury maybe more appropriate.
In answer to your question on fine tuning to predation, I stand by my statement.
The tiger carries out his predation with complete focus on the predation in its purity but the leopard has to focus on other influences as well.
His ground is picked not only for his prey but for the larger and more powerful predators that may also be there and the ability to tree his unfortunate meat.
His act of predation is often a compromise therefore and is not known in tiger predation activity.
Your mention of Jaguar offers stronger argument.
This animal is likely remarkably similar to the tiger and i would therefore yield that the tiger is potentially matched if we are being so specific.
Much of Lairweb’s reports are good and some is inaccurate.
Very little is mine!
The piece regarding lion ability being inferior against bear is possibly correct but the incorrect analogy has been put forward.
I understand it to be that the lions genetic plan of conserving his stamina, will meet with major error, especially when dealing with an animal which has the stamina of a horse.
Here it would be much better to mount an all out, and frenzied assault, more typical of the tiger.
Here the tiger is more likely to get lucky but luck he will need.
I’m certain that most big cats could easily handle small bears in either the fighter lion mode or predatory fighter instinct of the tiger.

Finally, kings in what regard?
No animal is truly a king as all animals have outstanding qualities in a given area.
The king fighter cat will probably lose against a big bear and cannot match the predatory instinct of the tiger.
The term king of beasts is centuries old, and at best pre dates present knowledge.
Regards C.
Kinesik, you read as a very angry individual here.

As stated, there is no link between Lairweb and Face off other than a contact address given by Maxine Annabel of 1 zoological researcher which helped with her building of the site.
The face off team used very many researchers, with many of them being American and only wrote to Maxine and the single researcher once regarding this whole subject matter.

I must inform you that I am an all animal fan and will only convey true facts here for a very short window so let us not get too bogged down.

Your knowledge regarding the lion’s mane is incomplete.
The mane is indeed attacked and not avoided as is mentioned on Lairweb.
It is quite possible that a very experienced lion will try to avoid attacking the mane but this just proves extremely difficult for him.

Manes are attacked with claws and bites, and they certainly do offer a degree of protection dependent on the quality of the mane.

Recent research does shed light on the mane being used as a sexual flag but it would be foolish to see it as a singularity.

You are clearly upset that I have suggested that the tiger is in someway inferior but this is not the case.
I have already discussed that the tiger is clearly the more practiced predator and with an outstanding set of its own advantages here.
There is always the possibility that a very large and powerful Amur tiger could turn over the surprised lion and bite him through but my reply has to be kept specific in terms of an overview.
My conclusion would be that overlooking the lion’s mane either for sexual flagging or battling would be ignorant.
In counter, I do believe that a very large Amur tiger exists which may prove to be too much for the lion.
A recent study in the Silkote suggests a dog killing male of 650lb.
The reports of his size are sketchy though, based mainly on one Russian involved in trying to radio tag a large transient male.
Villagers report an impressive tiger to confirm a large animal but we need more information.
In any event, such a beast is distinctly rare and I now have great concerns for the entire stock of this wonderful animal.
The problem does not seem to be correctly identified here.

It has been discussed here that the tiger may fight more often or less than lion. It is suggested that the tiger fights less due to its dreadful decline in numbers from its past highs and this has brought the change to its nature.
This is not good rational within zoological science.
The tiger once wandered a massive range far more vast than what it does now.
The figures are truly disturbing. In simple terms, it means that if the estimated 100,000 tigers, which once wandered the Indian subcontinent, were given back their land, they would not occupy even one tenth of what the 3000 have today. In other words their interaction would likely have been less or similar at best, such is the dreadful human encroachment into their natural world.
1.3 billion souls to be specific!
The lions mane and the tigers predatory semi/fighter instinct, evolved long before the encroachment of man or his stupid killing of this magnificent creatures.
C.
Kine, the maned lion suffers as much neck damage (statistically speaking) as the maneless for the simple reason that there is much less fight activity with the Western Transvaal sub species. These animals act more as predatory tigers, where singular males hunt as if females.
Manes are absent to aid high speed predation in the thick under scrub, and presumably, sees much less in pride competition.
Maneless plains lions are females or sub adult males and would therefore record much less fight activity.
This is the problem with following pure statistics. It really takes a whole lot more to come up with truly encompassing answers in the wild arena.
My best assumption would be that pure physics must dictate some advantage in neck protection from a massive mane however small and a doctorate is not needed for such comprehension.

Cojimar, I’m well aware of the historic record of the Caspian tiger but I would put him below the Amur tiger.
Much of the enthusiasm for the Caspian subspecies is brought about by the mystique of it being extinct.
All zoological weight estimates, put the animal firmly below the Amur in size, coat thickness and head size.
It rivaled the average Bengal and may have slightly edged it on avg. It had an unusually scraggy coat, especially at the underbelly. Its terrain was often rough and it was quite possible that the extra guard hair may have added protection to the underbelly but all talk of greater aggression is likely erroneous as little evidence suggests anything with which to substantiate such a claim.
If you want to match the lion toms prowess, we would need to find and document the report of an especially large Amur which i mentioned.
You must consider the wider jaws and thicker legs of the Amur species and the slight fat layering at winter, above any of the Caspian advantages. It was actually quite a lean but long animal, if we are being specific.
The huge head of the Amur male may match or even outsize the lions at the reported 650lbs. They are usually quite close to the lions at about the typical 500lbs.
For me.. Polar bear
Brown/Kodiak bear
Lion
Bengal Tiger
Black bear

I leave you to decide where to place our mystery Amur tiger.
After all the tiger deserves more than a little mystique since we have nearly destroyed the entire sub species.

Warm regards and all for now. C.

Late replies to questions
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All,
I must apologise for my late reply to your questions.
Unfortunately I had small 1 week window with which to answer a few questions but did not count on a colleague falling sick.
I had to take over his case load and ended up in some difficulties.

I will provide a general overview of what we currently understand regarding lion and tiger anatomy and killing ability, while picking up on what I see as relevant questions.

Enchained, Yes big cats can inflict cranial damage with the forepaws to other bigcats.
This is to say, that the bigcats have cranial weakness to the rear of the nasal cavity and upper crest, rather than being able to inflict massive bone crunching blows.
Huge voids within the front eye/nasal quadrant are apparent which probably evolved to reduce weight.
There is a distinct lack of nasal receptor area indicating that bigcats use vision rather than smell for detecting their prey. The voids must therefore be for weight reduction and noise resonance.
Skulls are often the heaviest bones in the body of all animals and stout strength is traded for weight in the fleet footed species.
Massive neck muscles and lower jaw bone allow plenty of buffering for high impact predation but the top of the skull above the jaw bone is relatively weak in comparison.
It is quite possible to pierce the skull of the domestic cat by using nothing more than the ball of the thumb if placed above their similar void area and while i would not expect anything like a similar result with the much more massive leopard, it does give some indication of the potential weakness in scale.

The lion and tiger anatomy is remarkably similar to each other.
Close observations has revealed that the two animals may not be larger, taller or longer as is often mentioned.
Lions may not be taller as some experts have suggested.
Skeletal observations by seasoned anatomical experts indicate that the lions more upright pose may indeed be more responsible, for its often reported greater shoulder height, rather than actually having longer legs.
Body length difference in favour of the tiger is also likely erroneous.
Latest measurements confirm remarkably similar body lengths.
The skull of the tiger follows old world lineage with more rounded skulls being observed but again, size is often remarkably similar if the lions mane is not present.
The entire question of which is stronger falls into the boundary of speculation and I rather suspect that they are remarkably similar.
The one area, of which all leading field zoologists will agree, is that the 8 year old Tom lion will have learnt considerable tactical ability within conflict situations with similar sized bigcats.
The fighting ability is based about its hunting anatomy similar to the tiger species but with genetic instinctive corruption.
Here its hunting evolution is corrupted from pure hunter to pack survivor compromise.
The documentation of tactical awareness, energy conservation, playing dead, peak fitness awareness and cooperation all lead me to believe that the tiger would be foolish to engage such an aware adversary.
Other observations reveal shorter much broader canines at the jaw interface.
It is apparent that some bigcats often break their tusks while engaged in such fights but this appears to be absent within Tom lions.
It is quite possible that the greater anchoring at the jawbone is beneficial when trying to tear killed prey away from other competitors within the pride.
Others could argue that the canines have evolved thicker for fighting but this would be pure hypothesis at this time.
C.
Aggression
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Vick,
It is well known among my colleagues that the tiger is the more hostile and aggressive animal.
This is undisputable.
Close observations almost always reveal greater aggression seen in tigers, both in the wild, and in captivity.
However, this not indicative of best protector on the plains of Africa as you suggest.
Black maned lions have higher testosterone levels and age. With age comes experience.
They are often much more tolerant of winsome young cubs and interior squabbling and appear to arrogantly ignore such inconsequence.
They are often calm in captivity too, but all who handle them or study them know that trifling with the beast would be suicide.
My suggestion of greater aggression in tigers would have little bearing on its willingness to defeat another adversary.
Tigers maybe more prepared to lash out in rage than lions but the lion maybe plotting something more purposeful.
Many lions seem to demonstrate great tolerance of man and many creatures which cross their paths but this does not detract form the ability to fight in any way.
C.
I can tell you that the "Lairweb" site is a great piece of work.
You must remember that Maxine set out to create a site for the tiger enthusiast, where most of the content deals with conservation issues, and excellent facts and figures.
Again, Maxine ran the "Face off" section as a light hearted side issue and even allowed a feedback page for which she should be commended.

Cojimar, Im well aware of the historic record of the Caspian tiger but i would put him below the Amur tiger.
Much of the enthusiasm for the Caspian subspecies is brought about by the mystique of it being extinct.
All zoological weight estimates, put the animal firmly below the Amur in size, coat thickness and head size.
It rivaled the average Bengal and may have slightly edged it on avg. It had an unusually scraggy coat, especially at the underbelly. Its terrain was often rough and it was quite possible that the extra guard hair may have added protection to the underbelly but all talk of greater aggression is likely erroneous as little evidence suggests anything with which to substantiate such a claim.
If you want to match the lion toms prowess, we would need to find and document the report of an especially large Amur which i mentioned.
You must consider the wider jaws and thicker legs of the Amur species and the slight fat layering at winter, above any of the Caspian advantages. It was actually quite a lean but long animal, if we are being specific.
The huge head of the Amur male may match or even outsize the lions at the reported 650lbs. They are usually quite close to the lions at about the typical 500lbs.

For me.. Polar bear
Brown/kodiak bear
Lion
Bengal Tiger
Black bear

I leave you to decide where to place our mystery Amur tiger.
After all the tiger deserves more than a little mystique since we have nearly destroyed the entire sub species.


Cojimar,
I would agree that lions lumped in with other carnivores will often behave most aggressively.
It is thought that may attempt to overthrow others in a sudo pack takeover much as in the wild.
However, kept alone or in same species, lions are usually much less aggressive.
My experience with English safari parks is typical. Here tigers will often attack the rear fenders of working vehicles or charge fencing even when they have had long association with the keepers.
Lions will rarely rouse themselves except at meal times.
The argument that secretive forest dwelling bigcats are a little further from their environment seems a good one here. Sumatrans of super dense tropical forest are notoriously difficult to keep, so much so, that if it were not for the conservation issue, we may not keep them at all!
Amurs have the notorious reputation of the greatest number of zoological maulings/killings.
This maybe due to numbers, where huge numbers of Amur tigers are being bred due to their demise in the natural world. My guess however, concludes that keepers often fall into lazy habits with their security around these seemingly peaceful captive cats.
In my opinion, Amurs are perhaps the most unpredictable of bigcats and they need much greater respect.
Polar bears can be quite terrible in captivity also.
There have been a number of very nasty events with public and keepers alike. They lack a holding dew claw but attempt to hold and tear with devastating effect.
Most keepers prefer not to work with the polar bear, while i am personally terrified by the animal at close quarters, especially in the wild.
C.
Paw strike force of bigcats
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Alfh,
Bigcats employ their paws as grabbing and holding devices in order to orchestrate a nape of the neck bite.
Fights will sometimes see paw strikes but these are to defend off canine loaded heads, rather than inflicting bone damage.
Nobody has ever quantified the striking force or compared it and the knowledge is not required in zoological study.
C.
Territories
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Moonshine,
Both cats wander similar territory size but the tiger may wander much further before establishing a territory.
Tigers enjoy densely forested areas where they can maintain a relatively secret lifestyle where they will seldom meet a territory competitor.
Occasionally this is not always the case and at least 2 tigers are known to have defended a cross over territory which was sought out by no less than 8 competitors during a period of 3 years.
This was an unusual situation brought about by 2 females which went onto to have a litter of 3 males each.
All hell broke loose as 6 competitive, and similar aged big males, all wanted to stamp their authority in Ranthambore during the early 80s.
Lions will wander into 3 or 4 pride occupied areas during their time as nomadic males which usually travel in pairs.
Prior to this they will attempt to remain in a pride where they will fight against cousins and brothers for several years.
After breaking into a pride, they will then vie for dominance and often drive off or kill the ally which broke into the pride with them. After which, begins the job of pride defence which will see a number of take over attempts.
Finally with age against him, the lion will be driven from his pride by 2 new nomadic males. He will then try to survive alone for a year and may even try one last pride assault in desperation.
A lion’s life is desperately tough.
C.
Re: Territories
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Bengaltigerfan,
Now we have a really sensible question.

We must remember that the tiger is still a very significant animal as regards territorial combat.
The people who have written these books are great zoologists who have immersed themselves in the tiger and correctly so.
All their reports are mostly correct and written with at least a hint of a passion for these wonderful animals
However, You all ask a very specific question here.
Namely how the Tom lion would compare.
Quite simply, if you read the similar reports laid out by lion zoologists, you will soon note a very similar pattern to the tiger zoologists. If you study all the journal, without prejudice, you will find that the lion behaviour is far more involved with fighting.
This is not to say that tigers are not combative or formidable.
I could write all day about the aggressive behaviour of tigers and some of their more notable exploits but i would certainly not write any less favourably of the lion.
The tiger may well generate greater enthusiasm and has certainly attracted a greater number of researchers and the finest too but this does not make the animal more combative.
All zoologists, serious in bigcat zoology, understand what a terrible fighter the lion tom is.
C.
Re: Lung capacity..
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The arterial blood supply issue is completely erroneous.
No quantifiable stats have ever been put forward.
However, lion Toms do have greater lung expansion due to greater chest wall capacity but this is not quantified as greater staying power but more for greater roaring power.
The treeless landscape has evolved louder roaring machinery.
Does it benefit fight ability? Perhaps marginally.
C.
Re: Re:Body fat
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Lion born, Great question and one which will surprise.
The Amur tiger does not lay down more fat at all.
The physiology of big cats is genetically predisposed to construct muscle tissue from the high protein intake.
Amurs have a genetic splinter which increases the sebum gland to produce thicker and longer guard hair when the temperatures drop.
Thus no extra weight is present in the species, just slightly greater bulking of hair leading to the incorrect assumption.
C.
Heart rate
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Asgt, this is likely erroneous.
At what point could we measure the animals’ rates.
Even at rest, humans can have a terrific spread of heart rate from person to person even if we remove age form the equation.
The lion is simply more combative and tactically aware.
C.
the strongest jaws for dogs
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Badass, The jaguar has recently been proven to have the most powerful bite force within the boundary of the number of animals tested. Based on what i understand, Jaguars exceed tigers slightly which are quickly followed by lions.
Lion musculature compared to tigers
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Enchained, the lion does have a slightly broader chest but this may have little bearing in a fight between the 2 animals.
The actual musculature is remarkably similar for same age and weight cats.
Dr Mendel is a fine Anatomical scientist and noticed very slightly more width between the front legs of lion toms, in 2 or 3 of the specimens that he has studied.
Tigers have their legs set directly below the chest in order to achieve the most efficient speed but they may make up for their less spread due to slightly bulkier shoulder blades.
It is perilously close to call which is stronger, so i would go with the animals behaviour as being the more important issue.

A lion tom from a sampling of 50 cats will simply have greater leaning toward fight experience and genetic instinct.
I believe all issues such as eyes, spread and length are unproven even by the leading experts in their fields but make for interesting theory.
C.
Brown Tom, You ask excellent questions of the type which i will enjoy answering.
Lairwebs piece on this old tale may have some slight truth.
Amur tigers especially captive Amurs could, hyperthetically, have been used in these fights and would have been less willing to engage an aggressive lion than a Nepalese tiger.
The tigers found bordering the southerly mountain range from Nepal to Bhutan are notably more hostile creatures with impressive weights occasionally being reported.
My best guess would be that one of these animals would be considered better than a lion or Amur by the people who wrote in that piece.
However, there is no proof of any such event and such an article would not be posted by a true zoologist without the proof.

Your question on lion tiger and bear is also excellent and the answer is quite complex.
A large bear is a very powerful animal for a bigcat to handle in a fight situation and a certain amount of experience would be required to stand any hope of avoiding fatal injury.
The most bear experienced of tigers may be able to kill a reasonable sized bear providing it had the utmost knowledge of how to handle this dangerous animal.
Without any chance of such experience, the lion will be the more likely to lose such an encounter.
From here we can establish that the tiger will do better in theory.
So why does that wily tiger of bear killing potential, lose a fight with a lion, and why does the lion suddenly have the guile and expertise to kill the tiger but not a bear.
This is because cats fight each other very differently.
Lions only have experience of fighting other bigcats and thus have become remarkably expert at it, possibly down to the genetic level.
Tigers do not employ a tactical approach when fighting each other. They have almost no hope of getting around the highly flexible back of another and any feigning or prancing will get punished during the extremely fast and highly aggressive onslaught.
Lions have learnt to use the mane as a damper in order to attempt to wear down an opponent but this would never work with a mauling bear, which fights very differently.
It is assumed that the tiger will not attempt a tactical approach to fighting a lion but that the cat fighting lion will.
This sounds all very iffy, but trust me, this scenario has been talked of many times with a great number of experts and we keep on arriving at the similar view.
There will always be tigers which can kill lions and bears which will lose to both cats but expert opinion has been asked to make this call as a general idea.
The bigcats are remarkably similar in weight and strength.
It proved almost impossible to separate them during anatomical study during the cat tagging of the 90s.
I believe that the constant flow of statistics regarding slightly longer, taller or wider bodies and even eye sight and chests, is all a bit hit and miss.
Lions have been able to kill similar size lions where the animals have been very closely matched.
This kind of tells me that tactics, fitness, age and an element of luck plays a greater part in such match ups.
One thing that I have noticed during my time is that adult tom lions are truly dreadful fighters amongst their own kind.
They will not entertain the half measure and go all out for the kill.
Its as if they put there whole being into that fight.
Manes tend to protect the terribly violent contact with the harsh ground when going over in the clinch or when the head gets dragged over sharp stones or rough ground.
C.
Re: Lioness
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Stacie, The lioness fighting ability is based on pack hunter.
It is the finest cooperative hunter but is not really a fighter.
Potentially she has the potential to kill a crocodile on land and hyena, leopards so on and so forth. However, she will usually avoid fights and thus is not particularly adept at fighting.
The animal always responds submissively to Lion toms and this is a very good idea.
Tvaso lions would lose an encounter with a big male tiger.
The animal lacks the fighting skills of the plains lion. It has extra long canines but humble jaws in comparison to the plains lion or tiger. It is not so thickly set and looks strangely tall, almost unbalanced on close inspection.
It achieved notoriety as a man killer but so has the leopard.
This notoriety does not make either animal a tiger killer.
I believe the tiger to be the slightly better balanced animal.
Also there is voidance of a mane with Tvaso which otherwise clearly adds something to the plains lion portfolio when comparing to tiger.
A plains Tom would kill a Tvaso quite easily and is solidly suggested so by many top zoologists of central Africa.
C
Re: Counter arguments
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Good questions,
Just about all of the leading zoologists today, seem to agree that the Tom lion will win out in a fight with a Tiger but the lion definitely does not have a harder life in all areas.
Tigers are displaced by their mothers at quite tender age.
They will then have to learn to quickly utilise the hunting skills taught to them by their mothers.
They will get hurt many times as inexperienced hunters and will often lose their life altogether.
Tigers are lone hunters, which is much more demanding than pack hunting but they do not seek out combat with other tigers as a matter of course like lions.
Situations arise for tigers with other tigers but they are not sought out.
Tigers most often have an option to leave an area if they feel unduly threatened by a larger male. Only the closest matched of males pursue situations until a face off occurs.
Lion toms rarely ever get hurt out hunting and are fed within a pride more often than not.
However, lion Toms cannot avoid combat. They are instinctively drawn to challenge for a pride in order to mate and will not flee from the pride when challenged by such an interloper.
Lions realise that pride involvement is more important than life itself and are usually prepared to die for the right to mate.
For most of the 20th century, tigers were considered the more powerful of the 2.
Most people just assume that the slightly larger tiger, complete with mean looking stripes, would win a fight with the lion but during the intense conservation research into bigcats (from about 1980) some major changes to this idea were made.
Lions are very clever fighters. The entire assault is planned out. The key is limiting energy and allowing for it.
Elements of trickery and sudden turns of savagery are all Lion tom attributes.
Recent surveys suggest that lions give away much less weight and strength than was previously supposed, indeed it is unlikely that do give anything away.
Of course, we do not get tigers and lions fighting and we can only assume based on what we understand.
Good evidence can be had by watching the 2 animals fight their own kind in their natural environment.
Tigers will rise and begin swatting feverishly until the other backs off.
The weaker tiger will leave with torn skin flaps at the head or maybe killed.
Lions attack on the ground and will seek out openings,
they will buffer in with their manes, play dead or sharply alter their tactics. Some of the more experienced lions will have really clever tactics. A notable is trying to dive under the front legs where the mane or top of the head will become available for biting. They ignore the biting due to the semi protection offered by the mane, and then strike up under the chest.
Tigers would fall hook line and sinker into this one.
The tiger does not employ such tactics in its world where the animal is devoid of the mane for such offering.
The mane does not really offer total protection of the neck area but it does offer some protection in certain spots. The Lion will realise where his mane offers the most protection and then utilise this protected spot as his buffer.
It’s a certainty that the lion will be much more prepared to fight to the death which is normal service within its lifestyle.
The Russian zoologists occasionally argue that the heavy haired Amur tiger will give the lion a good run for its money.
If left unmolested, I’m sure that we would see 650lb specimens around today. These would prove challenging to the lion for sure but the remnant Amur population is in quite a depressing state with recovery looking very uncertain.
Dwindling prey base and tiny breeding pools is reducing the size and fitness of this animal.
True specimens can be found in sanctuaries, where 650lbs is occasionally tipped but these animals lack any real fight experience even though they can be very hostile.
I certainly wish that we had 10,000 Amurs wandering North Korea and Eastern Russia. I’m sure that it would challenge the lion if this were the case.
A colleague reported that Amurs could achieve 700lb if living in a healthy gene pool with plenty of prey.
According to him, there is a slight tendency for slightly elevated growth within the colder climate but the prey base and larger gene pool must be in place for it to happen.
He now believes that this time is past.
Too much destruction of taiga forest has occurred with which to support the required wild boar prey base.
The bison is also disappearing, while a much smaller prey base moves into the lower quality terrain. Here we will eventually get Jaguar sized Amurs and recent reports of 400lb adult males seem to suggest that we may well be on the way.
Again we humans need congratulating for the number of trees and furs we consume.
C.
Re: carnivora
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Vick, Dr frank Mendel who majored in carnivorous anatomy, suggested lion toms would be superior.
Most of the big game experts involved in conservation on the plains of Africa have had some tiger experience at one time or another and would never back against a good sized Tom lion.
Some zoologists involved strictly with tigers have a surprising lack of knowledge regarding lion’s behaviour.
The best qualified, are Zoologists which are involved in all carnivorous mammals.
Dr Mendel would qualify as such and is especially involved in anatomy.
Dr Eric Kessler, Working with the bigcat institute in South Africa has no doubts. He spent some years working on tiger conservation and was a great studier of their behaviour.

A few videos of lions fighting is usually enough to sway many.
You can clearly see how the mane plays a significant role in protecting side attacks.
Too many people get caught up in the protection at the throat issue.

I doubt that the lion’s mane will protect a fully fledged bite at the throat form lions or tigers 2.5" canines but this rarely happens in engagements. There are many more issues to think about such as awful contact with the ground and side on bites where manes appear useful.

I think that rising to fight or all paws down makes no difference.
In the end both animals will be in a clinch on the ground at some point and this area is bested by lion’s experience.
C.
Lionborn, Barbary lions were longer bodied animals with shorter shoulder heights.
They had all the benefits really, with stocky broad stature of the stockiest lions around today and a mane too!
Weights are almost impossible to get accurate with only bones surviving but early photographs suggest animals up to 550lbs for barbaries and possibly up to 600lbs for cape lions.
Some Transvaal lions are impressive at up to about 530lbs and the record 690lb needs mention.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true barbary and cape lions
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Vick here’s a part Barbary.
It was built totally for fighting and all present big cat face off topics would be rendered mute.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true barbary and cape lions
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And if they do let these out onto the Atlas Mountains again, even plains lions would have to take a back seat.
All early documentation remarked on massive broad jaws and shoulders, not to mention mind blowing ferocity.
Even the females are bulky brutes.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true barbary and cape lions
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Cojimar, But our statement is erroneous.
I studied 1920 literature which concerned itself with the remaining stock of Morocco, along with a captive pure pair held by a Moroccan king.
The Atlas Mountains and woodland was reported to have seen almost total combat between males of this species.
At this time they were referred to as atlas lions or atlas mountain lions.
The atlas mountain tom would keep 2 females or more but the females did not engage in cooperative hunting.
In other words, they did not need to cooperate to hunt the mountains much like the tiger, but they were semi pride when pairing for life unlike the tiger.
The fighting was remarked on many times by early travellers and hunters during the early 1910s.
Apparently the males were completely mad and would aim to attack any lion outside of their pride but would do it single handed.
The males did not pair or cooperate for combat!
It was a truly terrible beast on all account.
I have a couple of notable accounts reported by big game hunters during 1890 which also laid testimony to this.
They would seek to constantly mate with other lions mates and were reported to be of generally larger size than plains lions with a marked showing of greater aggression.
All hunters saw the beast as the ultimate aim and sadly wiped out the last wild specimen in 1920.
Your information on the atlas could not be further from the truth.
I have a personal colleague who has studied the atlas natural history much deeper than me.
I’ll see if I can turn up a little more for you.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true Barbary and Cape lions
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The cape lion was as the plains lion but would have been slightly larger due to the geographic location.
In contrast it hunted the more lush forest floor rather than open savannah and this may have accounted for the slightly larger size genetically.
The last specimen’s bones suggested a 600lb.average.
But it would not have bettered the ultimate fighter Atlas.
All the genetic selection was greatly heightened in this species.
The body was moulded into the perfect shape for fighting and its mane achieved the largest ever size.
It was an utter demon and the ultimate challenge for the hunter.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true Barbary and Cpe lions
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Here’s an early account from The African big game Chronicles 1907.
We moved into the lion’s territory with great trepidation.
The plan was for a big tom for the garden party.
We were well experienced of the great Atlas but gripped with excitement and fear as always.
We carried 3 rifles and a boar war issue service.
Suddenly we heard terrible roars, when looking down from the escarpment we noted 2 huge males fighting. We positioned one rifle for firing and the Brigadier took the shot.
One of the great beasts fell. Soon after we beckoned the porters to climb down the rift and return our trophy.
The North Africans feared the lion and we would pay a costly sum to finally acquire our great mount.

The story is headed by 2 huge lions fighting.

A further mention in this book describes the Atlas as perfectly mad.
C.
Re: photo graphs of true Barbary and Cape lions
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The Caspian tiger would not have bettered a Barbary.
Caspians were notable for very lean and long bodies with long belly hair.
They may have attained slightly larger size than the Bengal tiger but were less well built.
There is no existence of accurate or reputable readings of roman cat fighting as far as i know.
MUCH OF WHAT IS AROUND IS PROSUMPTION AND HERESAY.
The atlas was magnificent and unquestionably unmatchable by bigcats.
Shortly before his death, John Aspinall (who studied the Barbary/Atlas history all his life) reported that the cat was far more savage and powerful than any tiger or present day lion.
It just doesn’t fit that the slim Caspian would have been its superior.
Remember that Aspinall was responsible for the Barbary breeding programme.
Visit his website by typing in port limpness wild animal park and Howletts zoo
C.
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One last time.
The atlas lion was greatly engaged in fighting. It was highly competitive for grouped females and would have been a highly skilled fighter.
It may have led a more nomadic existence in its search for females but it still behaved as plains lions in the way it sort to dislodge other toms.
The entire design of the animal was set up for fighting.
It was not a hunter but existed off the females kills.
The chest was massive and the massive mane would not have enabled very efficient predation. This all points to a fighter and not a provider or efficient predator especially in the denser forested mountains.
The View of lone, tiger like predator is erroneous.
It is quite possible that the documentation of such which you have found is unreliable or that the zoologist is mistaken.
Some early reports on much big game would be old fashioned and erroneous and I’m sure your information is bad in this regard.
I will consult my colleague on this tomorrow for one final report to confirm my own experience or apologise.
C.
The natural history of Caspian’s tigers is very poor so I do not understand where you are getting this idea of super powerful Caspians from.
Early documentation gives loose mentions of Caspians only.
Study outside of Africa and central India was virtually unheard of during the early parts of the 20th century.
Caspians were simply not encountered by western naturalists.
The last surviving remnants were studied but the meager offerings saw cats of less build than Amur tigers but unusual belly hair. A notable ruff at the neck packed the head out but the underlying skull was smaller and less impressive than the Amur in terms of strength.

Skulls for Barbaries were broader but much shorter. This accounts for smaller size when compared to Plains lions and capes but the jaw was massively powerful and the teeth extra stout.
This was a supreme fighter make no mistake.
Could you provide a source for my colleague with regard to Caspians being stronger than atlas during roman Gladiatorial times?
C
Re: Barbarie lions
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Cojimar and vick, I have been in contact with Dr Alan turner this morning (The colleague i mentioned yesterday)
Does the name mean anything to you?
If not I will enlighten you.
Dr Alan turner is a leading Professor of Palaeontology who has worked in the area of Mammalian carnivores.
He Co wrote the book Bigcats and their fossil relatives and was responsible for the anatomic structure research.
Professor Turner has verified my opinion which is based on much less experience than him.
Observations of skeletal structures found in the Atlas Mountains, has revealed long bodied 2.5 ft tall (shoulder) lions with extremely broad jaws and shorter heads.
The chest dimensions taken from rib cage dimensions, reveals larger chests than plains lions.
Weights are estimated up to 300kg.
The mane was longer and shaggier. It may have increased in order to cope with reduced temperatures or may have reduced in plains lions to cope with increased temperatures.
Vick, I read through your piece above but it still appears to suggest long manes to me.
All reports from early zoological works report of fierce competition with what were Nomadic interlopers.
The males were not pride builders like plains lions but would act as parasites off groups of sister females.
Usually the male sat with 2 females and was under constant threat from nomadic males.
Look at the port limpness sight. Aspinall was a leading player in Barbary research and spent millions on this project.
Your information is mutated and largely incorrect.
If you do not wish my experience on this matter, we can move on with other topics.
My time here may well be cut short due to work load and i can will only be answering specifics rather than wishing to get into debates with tiger fanciers.
The information is out there, so do not ignore it.
The Barbary was a non active predator of the Atlas elevation where it leached off resident females.
There has been suggestion of some genetic cross over into some areas of North Africa.
It is quite possible that displaced Barbaries may have bred with plains females and created the occasionally seen 550lb males with huge shaggy manes. Blood has been taken from notable specimens and there does appear to be some truth in the idea. This research is in its infancy and will take more time to reveal positive identification.
Aspinalls work is also linked with this new research.
Your information is erroneous and misleading.
C.
Re: carnívora
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Bengal, But I have read all of these works which you mention and many more, in order that I might compile my first Bsc.
The people who engaged the tiger in their research were extremely passionate about the animal and correctly so.
It is similar with the lion.
However, we all understand that these 2 great cats are just so physically close, that behaviour would be the most likely key element in an interchange if called on to declare an edge.
The tiger has simply excelled at predation with an occasional rare fight being part of its life.
Any zoologist worth his salt will know this.
The scent marking of tigers, secretive lone lifestyle and massive geographical range in relation to tiger numbers, all see to this.
The Tom lion however, is a constant target of coalition takeover.
Prides are sought out and easily and constantly found.
The pride is defended by the 2 prime males which reside together for the life of the pride.
They will constantly interchange on a daily basis, honing their skill as the vie to mate the in season sisters.
The takeover attempts will number as many as 3 per season depending on location.
The fight experienced and fight fit males will then battle to oust or kill the holding pair or drive off the interlopers.
The skill and battle experience of the pairing of a successful 5 year held pride, will by utterly sublime.
Additional benefits of a mane and its subsequent ability to intimidate leaves me with a big problem when trying to call this for the tiger.
I indeed, instinctively know that something is a foot with the zoologist when it is called the other way.
Either the individual is not quite the zoologist he could be and has spent too long around the tiger, or he isn’t a zoologist.
Please explain how I might call it for the tiger in the light of what I understand.
C.
Bengaltiger fan
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Ben, I cannot see where I was being rude to you but I was ill prepared for some of the responses that came at me (not from you) and reacted accordingly.
You are clearly well read on the tiger natural history but its how we assess what we have read.
Corbett had massive experience of the tiger, both as a hunter and later as a conservationist, but at know time did he make mentions of tiger being able to best lions.
At no time do i personally write of such subject matter.
It actually has little bearing on zoological reporting unless there is some interchange with regard to predated species.
Here I have been asked to give a point of view on this versus question without mutation of information which might lead to inaccurate ref. for some peeping in.
The zoologist which disregards the lifestyle of a successful tom lion will not be respected by me here.
The answers to such puzzles are often much simpler than we realise.
Of course we will always get tigers which can better lions or even leopards which could better polar bears but a generalised overview is all the zoologist has on this hyperthetical topic.
Here, quite simply, the lion tom is much more engaged in fighting than other mammal.
Here it will match or better similar weight animals and not likely lose as much as the less experienced fighter.
Tigers do fight but nowhere near as much as a pride holding pairing.
They do not plan out an assault like a nomadic tom lion.
They do not reside in pairs so that they cannot hone their skills during competition for in pride mating.
They do not have a mane which is often used as a buffer in battle.
If we ignore these options, we ignore zoology.
All manner of theories can be discussed and they may demonstrate great intelligence. Some of the theory may even be appropriate in one area or another, but the bottom line is that the lion tom is a much more accomplished veteran with similar killing ability and not too much weight disadvantage.
We can theory all night by using the foundation of passionate zoologists but at the end of it all, the lion tom still has that Physical hair around his head and neck.
I cannot remove it and I cannot ignore it.
They will employ a mane to buffer down an onslaught.
These onslaughts will last about 2 minutes before exhaustion is encountered.
The critical area is energy retention.
The cat is set up to high speed predate and rest.
The weapons are in place to fight but the fitness isn’t, at least not for any length.
Lions have simply evolved to pace their attacks.
The regular fighting may create a learnt effect regarding reserving stamina but the long term effect (10000 years) will be genetic instinct acquirement.
Big tom lion has the edge would be my appropriate answer when asked.
If you do not agree, then accept my apologise for spoiling your personal view.
I’m afraid that I do not have the time to debate, given all the posts but will lodge opinions only for future ref.
C.
Brown Tom, This is a respectful acknowledgement.
You are not a zoologist but you are of good intelligence and voice an opinion. You are clearly quite passionate about the tiger.
.. and i would never knock this type of opinion.
If a child or adult declared a fondness for a tiger and claimed tiger victories over lions and such, i would never dream of spoiling his thoughts.
My problem lies with certain claims from some individuals which sets up confusion within zoological research.
You do not appear to be guilty of this and have never given any false source as far as i can tell. Indeed, you do not seem to quote papers at all.
You have given a point of view and i am happy to read it.
Here’s a piece of my own experience.

We followed a large male tiger in Ranthambore before the monsoon.
A period of 8 weeks observed the comings and goings of a super predator or super tiger known as scar.
He had been in a fight and received a bad scar to his lower nose area.
He was an aggressive male looking to mate.
He had made several kills during these weeks and had gotten into a stand off with a female with cubs.
He could have killed her but left her alone.
He had roared his entrance to the resident male Abka and scent marked a boundary to his position.
Abka knew of his presence and followed him.
Again scar trail marked and made his presence felt, finally after two weeks of harrying scar made a charge at Abka and Abka met him in a flurry of paws and dust.
Abka backed down and scar got his territory.
Scar did mate and got 3 cubs before disappearing.
This is typically the life of the adult male.

My last visit to Kenya saw a coalition of 2 stalking male toms.
They were renegades of an old pride and had been ousted but were fresh out of the pride and still useful.
Both animals were horrendously littered in scar tissue about the whole head region.
A new pride with 10 females was operating in maelli maelli border and lay in long grass for zebra on a daily basis.
The 2 nomads approached the tall grass and split up.
Split up being notable.
They then attacked from 50 paces in 180 degrees of each others position.
The first male encountered a massive tom of about 480lbs. he was lead male of another pride male which was slightly smaller.
The two animals met head on and went over in a terrible bundle. The big resident tom had got the nomad in his jaws at the back of the mane and killed him.
The second male had attacked the smaller pride male and injured it on the right leg. It dragged itself along in order to fight back and then roared to the other male.
The big pride tom then appeared from nowhere and met his match.
The fight raged for 5 minutes until the nomad left blood dripping from head wounds.
A large skin flap was missing from the pride toms head.
He wandered back to the pride and glanced at his partner.
The leg was broken and torn.
Three days later that nomad returned and killed the injured male during the night. The big tom is still in charge but knows his time is short.
This is the life of the lion.
C.
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Brown tom, extremely good reply.
I especially like your piece which suggests lions may bolster their courage by being in pairs.
The tiger has also been known to have much more brutal encounters on occasion and death has resulted.
There definitely will be a tiger out there which can kill a lion.
An especially big specimen who has just enough experience from a recent female or competitor killing would cause problems for any tom lion.
My problem is that i have to give a general opinion.
I hate being non committal or standing on the fence, and its something that i have never been accused of.
If we took ten tigers they will behave as i have portrayed for about 5 peak years.
Only 1 would climb the heights of super tiger and possibly kill one major opponent during this time.
Genghis killed a territorial male after 6 months of squabbling, avoidance, getting bolder etc.
The Genghis which finally attacked and killed had generated enough boldness from these experiences and had grown fitter and larger since entering the territory.
He may, at his peak, have given the tom lion a good run for his money.
Sadly Genghis lost his second encounter to a younger cousin which attempted to drive him out of his area when he was old.
Here this rare super tiger had fought and killed and fought and got killed which fits with your assessment.
However, I must call an edge rather than saying I do not know.
This tiger was a supreme example but had one major fight which it had won.
Some old average tom lions have had as many as 20 fights. They are often littered in scars.
I’m sure that the experience and toughness is enough to give that super tiger a good fight but do more with the average tiger.
It is perilously close, but shaded by a touch more experience and a mane of hair.
C.
Vick, I’m afraid that I’m going to embarrass a large number of people here.
One M.sc. student i remember actually did a paper on this kind of stuff about 4 years ago.
I cannot clearly remember all of his findings but i do remember that he turned up precious little.
Ancient artifact reports dating form this time are incredibly rare and do not appear to deal especially with bigcats on bigcats.
There were Gladiatorial combat against lions where lions were apparently favored.
I recall that the lions were taken form north Africa but the classification "Barbary" did not come about for at least 10 centuries after the end of the Roman Empire.
One of the first mentions of Barbary was reported in the 16th century.
Tigers were taken from Armenia but were not called a subspecies or were they aware of subspecies until around 1840. When the classification of wild carnivores began.
So we know that this must be utter nonsense.

The "Living Edens" project for enhancing interest in the Himalayas has a lot to answer for with my students.
They mentioned on this site that tigers were known for bettering lions in the Roman arena.
This rapped up the entire debate as far as they were concerned.
The reality is much different I feel.
This not to say that tigers may have lost out to lions in this arena but that this statement was probably made by a suited sales figure for domestic tips to the lower Mountain ranges of this area.
Quite where he got his information from is a mystery to me.
We actually know much more about possible alien abductions than we know about such events in ancient Rome.
C.
Lioness has been known to take down small giraffe on rare occasions and I am sure I’ve seen similar footage myself but only males will attempt adult predation.
The lioness has much smaller lungs and venues supply when compared to Toms. They will run much further but are slower due to their bulk and are often very lazy in comparison.
A similar weight male would kill a female with little difficulty.
It’s still all about behavior, staying power, build and manes with Tom lions.
C.
Bengal, I think you maybe a trifle sensitive.
Nowhere in my postings have i ever displayed violent temper as you put it but you had listed Shaller as one of your experts in an attempt to rebuke my experienced reports here.
My reports are not concocted.
The tiger that you mention, its whereabouts and activities both within the programmed content which you give and in my own experience, is perfectly correct.
Congratulations on the accuracy of your report.
Unfortunately this activity is still considerably way short of the activities of the Kenyan lion which will see at least 4 times this level of combat.
The area which you mention provides an extreme of tiger behavior as regard this type of activity but still falls some way short of some lion interactions.
Certain points are notable to me.
The tiger’s slightly tougher skin and larger size.
Perhaps graphically so in old accounts of Amur tigers and northern territory, Asian subcontinent.
My point however, is one of lifestyle.
Here an adult 8 year lion will usually (usually!) have seen around 6 times the action of the average tiger relatively speaking and will be a more experienced fighter, period.
The mane adds an extra dimension which cannot be ignored
C.
To all
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Felinelj, my apologies. I never got around to your questions.
I foolishly opened up my polar bear discussion and this along with certain individuals getting very upset, I’m afraid I missed your calling.
The answers to your questions will answer much for all here. So especially for you...

We became aware of lions teeth being approx 1.5 cm shorter but 1cm thicker at base, while performing health studies on possible inbreeding effects due to small number density in tigers and lions.
During this 5 year period of research back in 91, we fortunately detected little in the way of inbred genetics which has so destroyed the captive white tiger.
Reduced teeth, stunted back legs, behaviour problems and increased size are all attributes of white tigers which have been over bred.
So, we obviously paid great attention to teeth and rear leg development during our research.
The teeth of lions are broader across the 40 samplings in comparison with the longer teeth of the tiger across 17 samplings of adults.
Rear legs and their discussions which suggested taller or shorter hind quarters, proved almost erroneous, with hardly any difference for same size animals.
Forelegs suggested similar and we became aware that Tom lions simply have a prouder more upright gait compared to the head down predator.
We found that the mane added about a 60cm hump of material to the apex of the nape. This perhaps accounting for the couple of inches or so, often suggested by many experienced zoologists.
The skin of tigers is found to be tougher, possibly in order to deal with predation in dense jungle where we get tawny spines and sharp undergrowth.
The hair proved much longer and slightly raised in the Amur species, creating the packed out appearance, but little in terms of extra weight was sampled.
However, we believe the tiger to be the heaviest bigcat.
Three tigers incl. 1 specimen from kaziranga proved to be close to 600lbs.
This 582lb. tiger has never been matched by the lion tom during recent times.
Another tiger known as Hairy foot was reported to hover the 600lbs and may have been 620lbs according to a top quality estimate from a close friend.
Another tiger from the Amur valley was estimated at 590lbs to 600lbs but was never seen again to allow an accurate weighing.
Tigers usually hover 440lbs to 500lbs for a good male, while lions hover 400lbs to 460lbs.
An especially large black maned male may weigh 535 lbs with 2 specimens recording 525lbs and 534lbs respectively.
An inbred population may score slightly higher weights (i will not go into the mechanics of this here) but the best lion is about 530lbs.
A group studying the Tvaso lion spotted a possible 550lb candidate but this is indeed rare and he may have been 530lb.
I believe that there is perhaps the potential for about 50lbs greater weight for the tiger in a very general averaging of samplings across all quadrants.
My mean development of weights within a fairly detailed programme, gave me 47lbs difference.

The cape lion enjoyed an over abundance like the tiger and may have even exceeded the weight of tigers.
It is possible however, that Amurs of slightly larger size existed at one time.
The miserable present offerings really give us little to go on.
C
LionBorn, Im afraid that any 580lb lion is likely to be a gorged animal or a complete freak.
You are correct, i said that 530lbs is becoming a more regular occurrence.
Lions of this weight were almost unheard of in the 50s due to the terrible toll of hunting.
The problem still exists today and the Masai are real offenders of robbing us of the extremely fine Kenyan lions.
They see them as a menace to their cattle which is a very important part of their society but we could help this situation if we were allowed to police this situation.
However, great strides have been made with protection elsewhere and we quite frequently get a good Tom coming around which pushes the 470lbs to 530lbs area.
I have personally been involved with the weighing of 515lb. animal (biggest i have ever seen personally)

Do not be too disappointed with these figures.
This is plenty big enough for a bigcat’s anatomy.
There is probably an optimum for a fighter or predator of the this species, and my guess is that 520lbs is probably about it.

Notes on injuries...
I have personally seen the most horrendous wounds in Tom lions. A sometimes whole leg ripped off and even faces hanging off revealing partial eye sockets.

My conclusions of 20 years infield observations, is that tigers are slightly the larger and possibly more powerful of the 2 animals (in some cases)
Canines seem to tie for me but many colleagues are utterly amazed by the length and beautifully destructive sight, that is a tigers 3" canines.
Claws are similar with lion footpads being slightly longer than Bengals but Amurs greatest in diameter.
After all this, the tiger seems to come out the better on paper.
All who observe the tiger seem to favor it, and i certainly do for predation.
However, my opinion will never change on the fight ability of the lion.
I found this terribly frustrating during my informative years. I’ve always leaned toward observing tigers and they would be my personal favorite, just behind polar bear observation and Orca sightings.
...But, a big tom lion of around 8 years is just a demon of a fighter.
Their focus is entirely on fighting.
Nothing seems to detract from this instinct apart from mating.
The number of fights per tom is quite alarming and no animal aspires to this level of activity or wants to.
Tigers fight for sure.
Females will protect cubs from males and may see 2 all out fights with a tiger during its life, probably losing the last.
Males will hold a territory which gets tested by probing attacks from at least 1 or 2 males during his residence.
This frequency is an average for all areas and may be smaller or greater, given certain circumstances.
Lions will just fight and fight though.
The best example that I could give you is that of the infamous Napoleon of 1970 Transvaal. So named because of the multiple raids on other toms turf.
This lion was responsible for holding 2 prides which is very rare but it serves my purpose of education very well.
During the animals final year (1977) He killed 2 interlopers single handedly one after the other.
He drove off his coalition partner after tearing off half his nose.
He was then displaced by a nomadic coalition before retaking another pride.
He killed the dominant pride animal and managed to drive off the remnant male.
He then killed and drove off a further 2 males before being driven out.
Napoleon sadly died from malnutrition after wandering as a scavenging loaner for 4 months.
The observations were made by a South African zoologist by the name of Hern Gustaal who was an African Naturalist famous for his work with Transvaal lion prides during the 70s.
He wrote of the tactics displayed by Napoleon during these fights.
Napoleon would attack at full gallop, then twist over and attempt to knock down his opponent’s legs.
The tom would make full use of his huge black mane by shoving the side of his head full into the face of his attacker.
Here he would maneuver the head, then suddenly release the pressure, throwing the adversary off balance, and then driving his canines into the passing lion’s front underleg.
Napoleon showed no fear in any of his attacks and would not flee from pairings which attacked.
Basically, Napoleon was a little mad but highly skilled in his ability.
At his peak, it is highly unlikely that any wild bigcat could have matched him, either for boldness, toughness or skill.

A recent black maned lion in Kenya is displaying similar qualities and getting into just as much trouble...It’s in his nature and genetics!
C.
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Pardus, I would certainly agree with you (on paper) that the magnificent Hairy foot would have been a mighty adversary for any tiger or Lion.
My knowledge of him was revealed to me by a good colleague who had guessed him at 620lb.
I do not know if you have an accurate weight for him but another photographer gave 600lbs.
I’m happy with either estimate.
He would have out powered a lion tom potentially but I have a major question mark... What was his fight experience?
Most of my contacts found no evidence of any fighting during his life.
I have noticed that all tom lions which prove to be successful at taking prides or holding them, appear to have great honed fight skills.
I believe that it could be tiger on paper from a purely physical point of view but in terms of skill, experience and that mane, I go lion every time.
Have you ever seen fighting lions incidently?
C.
It maybe time for me to move on unfortunately.
The problem here is that nobody is really interested in expert opinion based on what we understand as zoologists today.

Souther makes for a good example.
I have been successfully judging the weights of lions for many years, even without a human in the picture to create scale.
Souther claims 617lbs but clearly the top pic portrays a 400lb specimen at best.
The other animal is possibly close to 500lbs. (i can tell by the head to leg relationship incidentally)
Souther argues that I am foolish.
Clearly I am not tiger biased in my statements.
I have already explained the reason why a lion Tom will be the superior during a fight.
There is clearly no need to make up false nonsense.
Indeed, I have noticed that the most practiced and fittest toms are usually about 480lbs and anymore weight may prove hindrance.
The tiger is the larger and more powerful bigcat (potentially).
The tom is the more practiced fighter, instinctively as well Morphologically.
I bring closure with this statement and will be moving onto other topics for a limited period.
Lions seem very consistent throughout their range and unusual specimens can be quite accurately estimated by the right people.
Most of the hunting records have proved to be very unreliable.
Weighing frames were often adjusted incorrectly to suit more impressive trophies or tape measures even shortened.
My figures are from concrete scientific papers and I feel happy at conveying these to you as good.
If you have other weighings, then this is fine, but I cannot substantiate them for you.
My entire experience has led me to believe that the entire species of tiger, ties with the lion at 440lb avg.
Lion toms of Africa usually do 420lb up to 520lb or so with perhaps a 550lb freak or gorged animal being spotted during the course of say a 3 year study.
Tiger’s maximums are usually 440lb to 560lb. with rare 580lbish specimens occurring.
My own mean deviation model gives me 47lb. difference based on a 20 year study.

Vick, the desert lions maybe producing slight inbreeding results.
The animals are constrained, by environment, into small areas which results in no interchange between groups and this can cause larger size. I’m aware of a report of a desert lion which maybe slightly above 550lb but no weight has been recorded.

My main drive here is to put forward my own experience of what i regularly see in the wild.
Here, in all tiger wards of the north Indian Territory, we see the occasional arrival of a big male tiger which is usually about 500lbs to 540lbs.
Across the African continent game reserves, we see resident pride toms or interlopers of about 420lb to 480lb.
This is the normally occurring everyday experiences, period!

The tiger is heavier!

I am not in the slightest bit biased in my opinions, which died out many years back, prior to my studies of the pack ice of Norway and Greenland.
I have acquired an obsession to study the polar bear in all its regions.
My work is firmly in the bounds of conservation and is side studying the effects of PCBs.

Vick, I forgot to mention special notables regarding the extinct cape lion subspecies.
I posted that 600lbs may have been an average.
I’m afraid that i cannot be entirely certain about this but all reports suggest a big lion that was very probably in the 550lb to 600lb area as an avg.
The life was not nearly as hard as the plains lion, while prey would have been in excess.
Most skeletal remains suggest average specimens as large as the biggest ever recorded for plains lions.
The head was slightly longer but not bulkier, while the rear legs were not quite as slim through the hip bones. Muscle size may have been slightly bulkier over the rear flanks. All other physiology seems identical.
C.
The lion and tiger are remarkably similar in anatomy.
Much has been said about taller shoulder heights for lions but this is posture rather than taller height.
Lions also have manes which give the appearance of increased height at the head.
Tiger’s bodies are usually slightly lower slung through the abdomen and this together with longer body hair makes the legs appear shorter. However, laid bare to bones, these animals are remarkably similar.

800lb tigers of yesteryear were simply cattle stock killers which were allowed to over fill themselves across a good time frame producing big animals.
Stock killing is simply much better policed and there are fewer tigers around to do the killing.
C.
Tundra, without trying to sound boring, its again remarkably similar weights and sizes for females.
Illusions are created by hair and posture.
However, experience has taught me that the tigress would probably better the lioness.
Savage lone protector of her cubs generating slightly more independent abilities and boldness, being notable.
C.
Lioness/tigress
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Tundra, but your statements are erroneous.
We have never, ever, encountered greater ferocity than the threatened tigress with cubs.
The lioness looks a very impressive animal as you say, but it has learnt to be humble amongst the males. This does not occur with female tigers which have been known to fight to the death in protecting cubs from the male.
All lioness encounters with other dangerous animals are usually tackled en mass, with females working systematically to remove the threat.
Occasionally, grouped females will gang up on Male interlopers, in an attempt to ward them away while the resident tom is not on hand but there is little comparison with the lone tiger’s life.
Under predatory conditions, tigers will get into long drawn out battles with prey species due to unlucky hits while taking down. Again, there is no back up, unlike lioness which usually takedown in threes or pairs.
You have made an assumption and then informed a seasoned zoologist that on the contrary, I have it all wrong.
We once tracked the life of a tigress for 5 months which had made at least 15 major kills and fought out 2 battles during this period.
One battle was against a male tiger and another against a moderate buffalo.
She is a clever and lone player of survival and has to survive on her own merits which build some fighter experience.
The crazed nature of a tigresses defence would be disabled by the collective and much more powerful tom lion, but the lioness does not have anything like the abilities of the tom lion.
The lioness would not have the same ability in a fight which relied on her own merits.
The utter ferocity of tiger attacks is sometimes enough to drive off male tigers. She cannot beat a large male but he may not want the trouble of fighting her.
I do not know where you get the idea that the tigress will be lacking against the lioness.
I certainly have no experience of this with 20 years of studying these animals.
C.
Re: asiatic lions
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Vick, I’m starting to sound like a stuck record, but again they are remarkably similar anatomically.
Asian lions tend to have much less impressive manes but have more underbelly hair.
I suppose that the African lions are in more constant battles than the 9 remnant prides of the Gir and generally display greater aggression toward man.
Size is slightly reduced because of percentage numbers but size would be almost identical if the population were healthy.
C
Bears muscle density
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Bengal, The bears have similar muscle densities and size to the largest bigcats.
A large big cat will have similar strength to a similar sized bear and will have the same striking potential in terms of force and speed.
Bigcats have a more flexible backbone which would facilitate greater freedom of movement but the bear has much stronger bones.
We have found that hybernating bear bones are stronger than any other mammals on land in proportion to their size.
This would permit the similar sized/power muscles to allow hitting with their absolute force, where a bigcats paw or leg may otherwise break or its yield modulus would be reached earlier.
So bears can simply hit harder, rather than being much more powerful, as is often incorrectly suggested.
The weak area of a bigcat is his skull. With all that weight reduction and voids for noise manufacture, he really does not want to be taking a firm hit in the head from bears or other bigcats.
Bears skulls are harder than rocks. A strike at the head will not damage their skulls.
There are no noise voids and weight reduction is minimised.
They have a large void in the snout at the front tip of the skull for the largest nasal receptor in the animal kingdom. It is at least 3 times the size of a dog.
This would suggest that it would be possible to bite off a bear’s snout or maybe deter a bear with a hit to the nose.
However, getting hit by a very large bear does not bear thinking about (pardon the pun)
Polar bears will simply shatter a seals skull almost every time from hits.
I’ve examined hundreds of seal skulls which have been crushed by hits from these bears.
I have found seals with whole chest cavities staved in and backbones which are not just broken, but shattered into small pieces.
If you are comparing bears for fight purposes, then the bigcat would need to avoid the contact of bear hits and secure a head down attack of the bear’s neck.
The Amur tiger would be the more practiced adversary for this job and has pulled it off with some success.
C.
Lion born, you ask a good question which has just been recently dealt with by anatomical experts.
They are identical!
The lion tom however, carries himself more erect in posture and his mane creates the appearance of a front heavy/top heavy, bouncing strider.
The tiger is others wise known as the arrow.
Remarkably apt description of an animal which presents its body to the ground in a near perfect level flight to the target.
This is genetic maximization of the same body.
Tom needs a tall bold gate. Tiger requires ultra efficient path to its quarry.
C.
Tiger versus lion speed
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Asgt, The tiger is unquestionably the quicker of the 2.
All running function or swerving is performed much more gracefully and efficiently.
Again, the bodies are not responsible for this difference.
The animals physiology being remarkably similar means we need to look at the genetic tendency.
Tigers are just more predisposed and practised at carrying themselves to the target much more effectively, although when comparing females, we see almost no difference between the species.
The lion tom holds his head up high when charging.
This is all natural to the lion tom’s behaviour.
The normal reason for a charge is to attack or scare off, rather than predate like the tiger or female lion.
He seems to have great trouble getting out of this genetic trait when in a rare predation instance.
C.
Lioness speed
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The lioness is not faster than the tigress or the tiger.
It does have to run far out into open ground but does it in cooperation, takeover tactics.
The large lungs of the tom would give him greater stamina than the female which will allow him to go after prey slower but for longer.
Great footage exists of tom lions occasioning to follow prey for up to 500 meters at a fairly quick rate.
However, nothing has been seen to match the speed of a big male tiger across a short distance save for the cheetah.
A clocked 50mph was recorded for an Amur tiger in 1989.
C.
Clearly, I appear to be contradicting myself with the stance of not being drawn into the fight debate.
I have said that I will only provide answers to specifics on anatomy and behavior.
The fact is Tundra, the tiger is indeed the superior all round bigcat bar one or 2 areas which benefit the lion.
The tom lions galloping stride which sees his head held high for the purpose of watching his territory and in act of defiance, drops 5% off his speed when compared to the tiger.
He does not appear to change modes when hunting and this is signed and sealed.
All other aspects including face offs with big game all appear to favor the tiger also.
The animal is just the more practiced when dealing with other species as a consequence of independent hunting.
Its smarter with big dangerous animals.
The lion tom just knows how to scrap efficiently with other cats.
This does not make him master of all animals.
The tiger however, may be master of many.
C.
Some lions never even learn to hunt
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Enchained, the above is very true.
However, the tiger simply dies if it doesn’t.
In other words, there are a few lion toms which occasion to take giraffe and such but its not a normal rule.
In general terms therefore, the tiger is the master of the art.
Toms often cooperate in takedown of very dangerous prey such as water buffalo, an option the tiger doesn’t have.
Again, this general rule has been broken even by the tiger.
Tigers were once observed pairing up to attack guar in a systematic effort but this is exceedingly rare.
C
Gunbullet dixit:
Part of accepting the tom lion as the best fighter automatically and inherently means you have to accept that the tiger is the better all-round hunter.
Many of the tom lions adaptations for fighting actually contradict a superior hunting design. The mane is actually a huge hindrance when it comes to hunting as far as stealth is concerned; it's extremely visible contrasting with the African plains. It might as well be a neon light to wildebeest and antelope.
When male lions try to join in the hunt female lions will actually move away from them because the male lion's presence decreases their chances of success.
Male lions are only involved in hunts which require power, such as Cape buffalo and giraffe, where stealth is a secondary concern.

All this is actually evidence for the lion’s specialization to fighting. He simply would not evolve such traits if he didn't absolutely require them for something. It's obvious they aren't useful for hunting; they go so far as to be a hindrance to hunting success. So why did he evolve these traits?
Sexual selection is a funny thing to use as a reason instead of fighting success. Sexual selection favors traits which will be beneficial, that’s the whole point of sexual selection. Human sexual selection favors muscles in men, and ample mummeries and child bearing hips in women. These aren't just random arbitrary things; these traits serve a functional purpose. That’s what sexual selection does.
Evidence for female lions finding big thick manes attractive doesn't mean the manes only exist to turn females on. Females are turned on by them because they instinctually know they will aid the harbourer of said mane in the act of fighting.
There are other traits we can't notice which would turn female lions on as well, confidence would probably be huge, which could be connected to the stance and gait male lions exhibit.

The male lions purpose in life is to be a protector and warrior, he has specifically evolved to be perfectly suited to this task.
The male tiger is specifically suited to be a survivor. Part of that includes fighting ability, it's important for a male tiger to be able to fight, but that’s only a part of the package and so much of his breeding is dedicated to other things. A larger proportion of the lion's breeding is dedicated to such tasks. Through the sexual dimorphism of the species the male has evolved to specialize in fighting ability, the social life has allowed for this specialization.
Tigers simply couldn't afford to be so perfectly suited for fighting because other demands called for certain traits which were naturally at odds with fighting prowess.
With females providing food for him the male lion's adapting for hunting and survival was allowed to relax in favor of adaptations specifically suited for his role in the social group. Which happens to basically be fighting at its essence?

It's like my dog, a specialized guard dog, if you stand 50ft away from him he can't recognize you and he comes at you with intent to kill. His long range eyesight is incredibly poor, because he doesn't need it, unlike an all-rounder dog like the wolf he's bred for a specific task where long distance eyesight isn't important. If you take him out to chase hares he can't see them, and isn't even thinking about looking for them. Obviously a wolf or a more all-rounder dog is going to spot the hares even before I do. It will especially be looking for them.
It would be required for a wolf to be that focused on hunting.
My dog wasn't bred to "suck" at hunting, but in specifically breeding for a guard dog certain traits were naturally lost.
His lacking of these traits is in a way evidence for him being superior to the wolf in guardian ability.
Similarly, the lions shortcomings when it comes to hunting are evidence for his breeding focusing on another area- fighting. Fighting ability became more important than hunting ability, and so the male lion changed in accordance over many generations.

Now you simply have to accept that lion vs. tiger is fighting machine vs. all-rounder, with the tiger's fighting ability naturally being slightly inferior to the lions.
This isn't to say on any given day a tiger won't kill a lion in a scuffle. But the male of the lion species is the superior fighter over the male of the tiger species by definition.
Denying this is ignoring the amazing planet we live on and how it operates.

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Gunbullet provides an opinion with many good points included.
The tiger simply takes down big game with much greater finesse.
This may be due to practise, the way it carries its frame and genetic instinct.
The lion tom will raise his game to take a prey item only when an opportunity knocks, and while he is in the mind to try his hand. Most often, he is not interested.
There really is no comparison whilst out hunting.
Some male tigers will make 40 more kills per year on avg. above tom lions.
These are facts which i have bought you.
Read Gunbullets report to realise that I am not being one-sided when comparing the 2 species.
The skill of some tigers in prey takedown is quite amazing but it does not make the animal a better fighter than the tom lion.
Here, a very different set of tactics are utilised and only overwhelming weight advantage would deliver consistent wins for tigers.
There i have been drawn again but i see little way forward.
There seems a refusal to learn, by many here, when it does not fit with pet theories.
I think the enthusiast requires total victory in all areas but nature isn’t like that.
My time here is coming to an end but I will be notifying you all of a new book and series of programmes which will shed a little more light for your imagination.
The initial details are still quite sketchy and I am not allowed to give anything away in this regard but you will here from me just before I attend a field trip in early January in this regard.
Happy hunting for new information.
c."

Interesting...but at the same time its difficult to note anything from how its stacked up, and I usually only take info from people with experince, observation or an occupation that intwines with specific statistics...anyways, heres a quote from a real scientist:

~ Dr John C. merriam, associate professor of paleontology and historical geology at the University of California

Edited by Prime - 17-Mar-2015 at 03:22

Edited by Prime - 18-Mar-2015 at 22:46

Oh, your list is overwhelming. Unbeatable for tiger-siders.

Also, apart from trainers, historical accounts of lion victories classified in chronological order neat of repetitions is impossible to match by tiger victories. These do not amount even the half of lion victories.

Pckts has atleast 200+ aliases, Mike rodriguez is also him on youtube....its like you said, its evident the content he spews out is border line ill. At this point with the amount of info backing the lion, nothing is dangerous, unless Peter shows the links or scans, its all hot air, to be honest, everything hes posted I have seen the exact same document say the opposite, for instance peter said, Rudolf kludsky stated tigers have killed his lions, the article in russian translated says several tigers were killed by lions...Contradiction...he stated alfred court was afraid his siberians would kill the lions, I showed quotas he was only ever afraid of a lion Caesar from causing fights with his tigers, so aggressive he gave him away...again contradiction... he states Beatty never lost no more than 6 tigers, yet I showed Boss tweeds, prince and detroit alone counted up more than that number, even though beatty said 50 while more than half are accounted for...another contradiction, which makes me believe that hes just a more tuned out version of pckts, more subtle, more educated, but still the same motive, instead of wanting to find out the truth they just want the tiger to win.

Edited by Prime - 19-Mar-2015 at 02:17

And what about Perrault? The one who erased hundreds of your posts was not pckts, but the mod Perrault. The other mod Apollyon was just a puppet, a marionette who never defended the lion-fans against claims from vomitive posters like pckts and others. These claims always found a favourable receipt by Perrault and Peter.

Prime, stunning new info and quotes.  That is amazing what you found on Beatty, never saw that before.  Also incredible to see the Mr. Gay quote directly commenting on a fight. I also have some new info as well, for some reason, still can't comment through the PM.

What is all about pic of Charles lion farm?

And about Bostock and Hagenbeck?