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The modern Greek military
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xristar View Drop Down
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The modern Greek military
    Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 23:47
Its a 2.3 billions euro difference,we can do alot with that money
 
7 million euro a Puma no thank you

Well yes, but the Puma is much heavier (43 tons compared to 19 tons!)=much better protected, and has all the modern technology when it come to aiming.
Only think that the BMP-3's sides are vulnerable even to 12,7mm machinegun fire (something very common with the turkish army), while the Puma has full protection even against 30mm AT fire.
The is certainly a very expensive vehicle to ever become the main one for the greek mech infantry, but I think it is worth buying for the armoured brigades. Along with the LeoA6, this would make them practically irresistible by the turks.

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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:41
Originally posted by xristar

It is now official: Greece will buy 415 BMP-3 vehicles.
Greece will also receive 35-50 BMP-3F for the marines with no cost.

Source: http://www.defencenet.gr
I hope this is a interim option. The PUMA or even a CV-90 would of been the best longer term option. In the end one needs good armor and firepower run by a power/weight ratio that is competitive to the army next door. The BMP has very good P/W, good firepower but light armour. It fails in one of the three basic areas. No dollar should be spared in something that transports/protects our front line troops, especially in support of our Leopards 2's. They spend enough on the air force, but sometimes one or two bill needs to go to the armoured units for a bit of balance.

There is no point buying something that can be smashed by a Turkish 25/30mm cannon, crams the soldiers into a uncomfortable (and hard to exit) hull and uses non NATO ammo for greater complexities in logistics down the track.

The marine one sounds handy.




Edited by Leonidas - 08-Dec-2007 at 06:15
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 06:53
the fire power (the Good)



he main armament of the BMP-3 is a 100mm 2A70 semi-automatic rifled gun / missile launcher, which is stabilised in two axes and can fire either 3UOF HE-FRAG (High Explosive-Fragmentation) rounds or 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missiles. Effective range for the HE-FRAG round is 4,000m. Muzzle velocity is 250m/s. 22 HE-FRAG rounds can be carried in the automatic loader, total ammunition load being 40 rounds. Rate of fire is 10 rounds a minute.

The gun fires the 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missile round, which consists of the 9M117 laser beamriding missile and container. This missile is used in the Bastion missile system (NATO designation AT-10 Stabber). It can engage tanks with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) as well as slow, low-flying targets such as helicopters. Range is 100m to 4,000m. Hit probability is given as at least 0.8 with armour penetration of 600mm. Ammunition load is eight rounds.

Armament also includes a 30mm 2A72 automatic gun, stabilised in two axes, which fires 3UOR-6 and 3UOR-8 rounds. Ammunition load is 500 AP (Armour-Piercing) or HE-FRAG rounds. Rate of fire is more than 300 rounds a minute and range is 1,500m to 2,000m. There is also one 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun and two 7.62 bow machine guns.

http://www.army-technology.com


The "Bacha' turrent





Combat weight 5000 kg
Personnel capacity 2 persons (commander, gunner)
Length over 100-mm gun-launcher 4528 mm
Armament swept area 3395 mm
Width over turret 2700 mm
Height
From lower race-ring supporting surface to turret top, max. 540 mm
Turret baskets from lower race-ring supporting surface, max. 1175 mm
Basket diameter 1900 mm
Race-ring diameter 1982 mm
Armament
Gun-launcher with automatic loader
Make 2A70
Type rifled semiautomatic
Calibre 100 mm
Maximum firing range 4000 m
Minimum practical rate of fire with rounds being in loading mechanism 10 rds/min
Automatic gun
Make 2A72
Type automatic
Calibre 30 mm
Minimum rate of fire 300 rds/min
Maximum aimed firing range at ground targets 4000 m
Machine gun
Make PKTM
Calibre 7.62 mm
Maximum practical rate of fire 250 rds/min
Rate of fire 700-800 rds/min
Feeding in belts
Maximum aimed firing range 2000 m
Zones of fire
Traverse 360
Elevation 62 30
Depression 4 15
Ammunition allowance
Rounds for 2A70 gun-launcher
With high explosive projectiles 22 pcs
With guided missiles 3 pcs
Cartridges for 2A72 gun
With fragmentation tracer and high explosive incendiary projectiles 305 pcs
With armour piercing tracer and armour piercing cored projectiles 195 pcs
Cartridges for PKTM machine gun 2000 pcs

www.kurganmash.ru/en/turrets/turret%5Fbmp3u/

30 mm 2A72
This is the main weapon from the looks of it. I would like to closely compare this with the bushmasterII 30mm.


Effective range against armoured targets is claimed to be 1,500 m while lightly armoured targets can be engaged out to 2,000 m and helicopters out to 4,000 m.

The 30 mm 2A72 cannon fires two types of ammunition, AP-T and HE-I.

The design authority for the 30 mm 2A72 cannon is the KBP Instrument Design Bureau with the weapon being manufactured by the Tulamashzavod Joint Stock Company.

Muzzle velocity (m/s)
960
Rate of fire (rds/min)
400
Weight (kg)
84
Recoil force (kg)
6000
www.army-guide.com/eng/product3223.html


100 mm gun 2A70
Secondary weapon, for launching longer ranged Anti tank missiles (9M117 - AT-10 'Stabber') so compare with the TOW missiles, and firing HE rounds better suited for demolishing structures and close support (compare with a 76mm gun?)


The 2A70 rifled gun fires a 3UOF17 HE fragmentation projectile at a rate of fire of 8 to 10 rds/min or the 3UBK-10-3 with the 9M117 laser-guided antitank missile. The latter is known by NATO as the AT-10 'Stabber', has a maximum range of 4,000 m and is covered in the Vehicle-mounted anti-tank guided weapons section.

The complete system is called the Basnya. The complete round containing the 9M117M missile is called the 3UBK10M-3. The complete round weighs
22.9 kg with the missile weighing 19.4 kg and having an average velocity of 300 m/s.
The HE fragmentation projectile is loaded from an automatic loader which holds a total of 22 rounds of ammunition while the laser-guided projectiles are loaded manually with a total of eight projectiles being carried.

Rate of fire (rds/min)
10
Weight (kg)
332
www.army-guide.com/eng/product3215.html


mounted above are parts of the 1K13-2 'BUG' sighting system and guidance system for the 9M117 - AT-10 (KDT-2 laser range finder)
1K13-2
Target detection range by the gunner at day time (m)
5000
Target detection range by the gunner at night (m)
800
Weight (kg)
83
www.army-guide.com

KDT-2
Measuring range (m)
4000
Measuring range accuracy (m)
20
Weight (kg)
25
http://www.army-guide.com

http://armoured.vif2.ru/bmp-3.htm



Edited by Leonidas - 08-Dec-2007 at 09:58
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 09:56
I would like to get details on the munitions side of this contract. This makes a bit of a difference on the performance of this purchases. Namely what version of missile (100mm) and the ammo used on the 30mm. Sighting equipment modifications also would be good to know, as i have come across some upgrade possibilities. Armour and defensive packages  (if available) would be another nice to have.

The difference between the AT-10 variants is enough to warrant a 'wait and see' judgment on what they bought.

From Wiki and a few other places

9M117 Bastion 100 mm 3UBK10-3
Early production missiles had a single HEAT warhead, but a version with a tandem HEAT warhead is now available with the missile being designated the 9M117M.

9M117M Kan  100 mm 3UBK10M-3 (9K116)
The same 9M117M missile is used but the round has a significantly different propellant casing because of the ballistics of the 100 mm 2A70 gun used on the BMP-3. (I think Cyprus have these)
Firing range (m)
4000
Main weapon caliber (mm)
100
Weight (kg)
13
Length (mm)
1048
www.army-guide.com/eng/product2813.html


9M117M1 Arkan = 100 mm 3UBK23-3
This can reliably destroy tanks (such as the M1A1, Merkava-3, Leopard-2, T-84), that are the basis of the tank parks in the most advanced countries, at course angles of more than 30.
Main weapon caliber (mm)
100
Firing range (m)
5500
Length (mm)
1185
Weight (kg)
21.5
www.army-guide.com/eng/product3230.html



All these requirements are met by the Arkan guided missile. The basic comparative characteristics of the Arkan missile and the 9M117 missile are presented in Table 2.

The Arkan missile embodies the latest research and technological achievements. Its development took into account the need to reduce the caliber, weight and dimensions of the missile because their increase could cause changes in the design of the vehicle as a whole.

The 9M117M1 Arkan missile can be fired at a range of up to 4,000 m from all 9M117 missile carriers without their modification. Firing at a range of 5,000 to 5,500 m requires a minor retrofitting of standard sights/guidance units to increase the time of emitter operation.

The values of the conditional kill probability for tanks of different protection groups versus a target course angle are presented in Table 3, while the changes in the M1A1 tank kill probability as a function of range are given in Fig. 1.


It should be noted that the above assessment neglects the possibility of tank engagement by the fragmentation and blasting effect of HEAT warheads; therefore, the real values of kill probability will be higher, especially for modern tanks that have the sight heads of considerable dimensions.

The analysis of these data leads to a conclusion that the newly developed missile capable of penetrating the explosive reactive armor (ERA) can successfully fight virtually all current tanks: on average, one or two shots are required to defeat tanks of the second group (M1A1, Merkava-3) and two to three shots are needed to engage tanks of the third group (M1A2, Leclerc, Challenger-2).

Fig. 1 demonstrates the advantage of the Arkan missile over its predecessor (3 to 3.5 fold increase in kill probability with the firing range extended by 40 percent).

www.enemyforces.com/apc/bmp3.htm







Edited by Leonidas - 08-Dec-2007 at 10:00
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2007 at 14:27
The greek BMP-3, will use the BMP-3M turret, but will have significantly improved interior (technology-wise), and perhaps improved armour. (www.defencenet.gr)
I can assume that it will be using the best features of the BMP-3, including the best 30mm ammunition and the Arkan missile.
According to the aformentioned site, a greek military official said the greek BMP-3 will be the most potent IFV in the world (ok, that may have been an exaggeration, but it seems the military men are bound to improve the BMP-3 as much as possible).

The final agreement hasn't been signed, so no details have been revealed. But they will be known in a matter of days, as the greek officials  are travelling tomorrow to Moscow to close the deal, before PM Karamanlis meets Putin on the 17th of December.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 20:43
Greece and Russia have agreed to upgrade Greece is S-300 system to S-400

With this upgrade Greece will have a range of 400km,we will be able to detect stealth

fighters,and intercept incoming balistic missiles.
 
 
 
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 23:47
Hmm, yes indeed. That's good news, but honestly, if we decide to use the S-300/400 and spend money on it (remember: the S-300 was not originally intended for Greece but for Cyprus), why do we still buy all these Patriots?

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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 23:48
Basically, since the majority of Greece's AA systems are russian, the S-300 makes sense. It's the Patriot that doesn't.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 00:18
I agree Xristar,i guess Greece caves under pressure from the U.S so we buy the Patriot too.
 
But their plans to upgrade are Patriots too,i have read this many times.
 
I found this artical it talks about a Patriot upgrade center in laupio
 
 
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 12:08
Originally posted by xristar

Basically, since the majority of Greece's AA systems are russian, the S-300 makes sense. It's the Patriot that doesn't.
the s-300 is only deployed in crete, the patroits were already bought and protect Athens, Thessalonki and some points in-between.

Any further purchasing of more of these Patriots would have more to do with costings, and to get the true picture of Greece air defenses you would have to see what they use for their fire-control, surveillance and networks.

AFAIK Greece uses western radars and technology, so how one networks these Russian SAMs into the overall structure would have inherited its own risks, hurdles and costs, on top of the higher cost to run the s-300's. I also remember Greece having big issues in this area with the  tor-M1. Im not sure if they have (or how well) integrated the s-300 is to the other systems, that would be classified stuff. Even as a stand alone its deadly, but a true national network is the best long term goal the country has on securing its airspace.

 If Greece has already worked out how they can marry up the russian and western systems, then they will go both. The best case (and most expensive) scenario is if Greece is able to 'plug and play' either sides technology and arms in a integrated way. That way they get the best of both sides without being overly dependent on either, and the prices should be more competitive. Which may offset a little part of that initial  financial pain






Edited by Leonidas - 20-Dec-2007 at 12:12
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 21:07
I don't know much about the subject, but it's true that Greece had major problems uniting her russian and western AA systems into one network.
But, as Greece has many russian AA systems (the TorM1, the Osa-Ak, the BukM1), and her older western AA are being phased out (the Hawk), logic would be that Greece should build a russian type network.
The S-300 were not a Greece's plan. Greece already had the Patriots, and then bought another batch. So why spend more money on the S-300, if we are sticking with the Patriots?
About the network, officially there no problem of combatibility between western and russian systems.
Of what I know, indeed, greek (?) programmers have managed to programme a proccess of translation between russian and western computers, and the building of the national network is a matter of time.

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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 21:13
This is the main weapon from the looks of it. I would like to closely compare this with the bushmasterII 30mm.

From what I've read in the forums of defencenet.gr, BMP-3's 30mm gun is  inferior to the western 30mm guns. It's comparable to the 25mm gun of the Bradley.
It's enough for Greece for the moment (against the light turkish AIFVs), but it cannot cope with more modern IFVs, especially when also taking into consideration the vehicle's weak armour.

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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 05:11
A question, in 2000 the Allied Mobile Force [Land] was disbanded.  Does the Greek Military and the Turkish Military still train together and have combined excercises?
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 12:59
I don't know exactly, but I know that they both participate in international naval and aerial excersises.

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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 13:32
According to defencenet.gr the greek air force is desparately seeking two-seated fighters to replace its losses. HAF was opting for used US F-16D Block 30, but americans say they can't sell them until 2012 (or 2013, I don't remember).

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 22:52
Greek military spending continues, 650 million euros
 
 
1] 400 millions euros for ammunition for are Leo2

2]150 million euros for ammunition for artillary 155mm

3]40 millions euro for 2 SAR helos

4]30 millions for night visions goggles [not sure]

5]30 milions [uneable to translate}

If some can take a look at the artical,am not sure about 4 and 5
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 22:55
S-400 soon to be in the greek military arsenal
 
According to reliable information,Greece will purchase the S-400 from Russia

The agremment was made between Karamanlis and Putin in december.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/images/banners/contents/ST_08.01.14_cont.pdf
 
It looks like Greece will upgrade its S-300 to S-400 ,and purchase another S-400
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 08:01
Originally posted by xristar

According to defencenet.gr the greek air force is desparately seeking two-seated fighters to replace its losses. HAF was opting for used US F-16D Block 30, but americans say they can't sell them until 2012 (or 2013, I don't remember).
thats really frustrating to read, they had 10 options on some new ones.
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:18
If some can take a look at the artical,am not sure about 4 and 5

4 is ok. 5 is mortars (I heard of this too) and bomblets(?).

thats really frustrating to read, they had 10 options on some new ones.

First, when the air force was asked for the 10 options they said yes, but they weren't purchased for political reasons (someone in the governement decided they don't need them).
Second, the two-seated fighters are needed for training primarily. The 10 options would be 1)more expensive than the used ones 2) would include 'unneccessary' one-seated not-capable-for-training F-16s.

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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 11:41
for training , second hand is fine. i know that the blk52 were ordered with a high two seat ratio, but thats was more for combat (AFAIK). They may try to look at the older European craft for a cheap purchase.

im still bitching they didn't take up that last ten. the next purchase is far away and will most probably be another type


Edited by Leonidas - 15-Jan-2008 at 11:42
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