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Shahname and Schytians

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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Shahname and Schytians
    Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:42
does the Shahname mention Turan?is that Turan is turkic or the nation who fought persians has Turkic characteristic?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:49
Turanis and Iranis in the Shah Nameh speak the same language, there is no mention of "Turks".  Turanis and Iranis in the Avesta also speak the same language. 
 
Turan was only applied to Altaic people by some crazed Hungarian nationalist in the 19th century after the read the Shah name and became delusional.  That's where it caught on from.
 
Turan refers to ancient non-Turkic Scythians in the Shah Nameh and Avesta.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:50
is there anything about Turanis culture there?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:01
There was no difference because they were the same people.
 
The lands were divided between three sons of King Feriydoon of Iran. Salm, Tur and Iraj.  Salm and Tur were jealous of Iraj because he inherited Iran.
 
The name Turan comes from Tur.
 
 
According to Ferdowsis Shahnameh, Fereydun was the son of Ābtīn one of descendants of Jamshid. Fereydun together with Kaveh revolted against the tyrannical king Zahhāk and could defeat and arrest him in the Alborz Mountains. Afterwards Fereydun became the king and according to the myth, ruled the country for about 500 years. At the end of his life he allocated his kingdom to his three sons; Salm, Tur, and Iraj. Iraj was Fereyduns youngest and favored son and inherited the best part of the kingdom namely Iran. Salm inherited Asia Minor ("Rūm", more generally meaning the Roman Empire, the Greco-Roman world, or just "the West") and Tur inherited Central Asia ("Tūrān", all the lands north and east of the Oxus, as far as China), respectively. This aroused Irajs brothers envy and encouraged them to murder him. After Irajs murder, Fereydun enthroned Irajs grandson, Manūchehr, before his decease. Manūchehrs attempt to revenge his grand fathers murder initiates the Iranian-Turanian wars.
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 04-Nov-2006 at 12:03
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:12
i read that Mahmut of Ghazne didnt liked shahnameh becouse it understimated Turan.? Tur inherited Turan(central asia) doesnt that means they are Turkic?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:40
Turan is not underestimated.
 
No, Soghdiana and Bactria were the kingdoms of Central Asia, they were both Iranian kingdoms.
 
The Turkic tribes were not in, or at most prominent, in the region at this period.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:35
which period?
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:50
and who is Afrasiyab? i heard that he represents the Alp Er Tunga in the Scythian Myths
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:00

You can research this all on google, my friend.

Afrasiyab desended from Kay-Khosrow, the Iranian King.
 
If he was Alp er Tunga his name would have resembled Alp er Tunga, that is just conjecture. 
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  Quote GhengisKhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:24
Alp Er Tunga was Turk leader of Schytians(Sakas).
 
Turk tribes in schtians called him Alp Er TungaWink.İranic peoples in Empire called him Efrasiap.
 
Here ı found poem,it wrote by a Turk schaman after Al Er Tonga's death,in schytian language:
 
Alp Er Tonga ldi-m
İsiz ajun kaldı-mu
dlek in aldı-mu
Emdi yrek yırtılur
 
Begler atın argurup
Kadgu anı torgurup
Mengzi yz sargarıp
Krkm angar trtlr
 
Knglm iin rtedi
Btmiş başıg kartadı
Kemiş dk irtedi
Tn kn keip irtelr
 
dlek atıg kevredi
Yunıg yavuz tovradı
Erdem yeme sevredi
Ajun begi ertilr
 
                             Divan'ı Lugat'it Turk-Kaşgarlı Mahmut
 
This language is old TurkishClap


Edited by GhengisKhan - 11-Nov-2006 at 11:30
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  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:53
Alper Tunga oldimi Isiz acun kaldimi, hahaha this is the most lovely poem I have ever heard.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 14:36
Originally posted by GhengisKhan

Alp Er Tunga was Turk leader of Schytians(Sakas).
 
Turk tribes in schtians called him Alp Er TungaWink.İranic peoples in Empire called him Efrasiap.
 
Here ı found poem,it wrote by a Turk schaman after Al Er Tonga's death,in schytian language:
 
Alp Er Tonga ldi-m
İsiz ajun kaldı-mu
dlek in aldı-mu
Emdi yrek yırtılur
 
Begler atın argurup
Kadgu anı torgurup
Mengzi yz sargarıp
Krkm angar trtlr
 
Knglm iin rtedi
Btmiş başıg kartadı
Kemiş dk irtedi
Tn kn keip irtelr
 
dlek atıg kevredi
Yunıg yavuz tovradı
Erdem yeme sevredi
Ajun begi ertilr
 
                             Divan'ı Lugat'it Turk-Kaşgarlı Mahmut
 
This language is old TurkishClap


Completly wrong! You have read what Zagros wrot above, did you? Afrasyab (and not Efrasiab) was the Son of Kay Khosrow according to Shahnameh. And there was never an Alp Er Tunga between Scythians, becouse alp Er Tnuga is a mythical Hero of Turks, not a real person. When would you people differ between myth and reality?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:15
Yes, let's not get Iranian and Turkic legends and myths mixed up with each other.
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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 12:24
alp er tunga and efrasiyab are the same person
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 05:30
AFAIK Both in Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (1073-1077) by Mahmud Kashgari and in Kutadgu Bilig (1069-1070) by Yusuf Has Hajib, Alp Er Tunga is identified as Afrasiyab. However, these books are written more than a millenium later than the life of the person in question; therefore I think we cannot definitely say they were the same person.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:18
Kotumeyil wasn't the Shahnama written during the same period?     
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:31
Yes, Shahnameh was written around year 1000; but Avesta was ancient.
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:37
Exactly, the Shahname is being used to determine Afrasiyab. The Shahname was a great work but we know it's history is not accurate.
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:40
Does Avesta also say that Afrasiyab was descendant of Kay Khosrow?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 15:42
No, but what the Avesta does say is that the Turanians and the Iranians were one people with different religions.speaking the same language - probably proto-Aryan.
 
The most direct descendants of the Turanians as far as I see are the Nuristanis.  They have almost all been coverted to Islam, but their pre Islamic religion fits in with that described by the Avesta.
 
I am sorry guys but there is no way that the Avesta or Shah nameh Turanians are the ancestors of Turks.
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