Shahname and Schytians
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15971
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 11:53
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Shahname and Schytians
Posted By: Batu
Subject: Shahname and Schytians
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:42
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does the Shahname mention Turan?is that Turan is turkic or the nation who fought persians has Turkic characteristic?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:49
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Turanis and Iranis in the Shah Nameh speak the same language, there is no mention of "Turks". Turanis and Iranis in the Avesta also speak the same language.
Turan was only applied to Altaic people by some crazed Hungarian nationalist in the 19th century after the read the Shah name and became delusional. That's where it caught on from.
Turan refers to ancient non-Turkic Scythians in the Shah Nameh and Avesta. ------------- |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 11:50
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is there anything about Turanis culture there?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:01
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There was no difference because they were the same people.
The lands were divided between three sons of King Feriydoon of Iran. Salm, Tur and Iraj. Salm and Tur were jealous of Iraj because he inherited Iran.
The name Turan comes from Tur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fereydoun - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fereydoun
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdowsi - Ferdowsi s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh - Shahnameh , Fereydun was the son of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abtin - Ābtīn one of descendants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamshid - Jamshid . Fereydun together with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaveh - Kaveh revolted against the tyrannical king http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak - Zahhāk and could defeat and arrest him in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_Berezaiti - Alborz Mountains . Afterwards Fereydun became the king and according to the myth, ruled the country for about 500 years. At the end of his life he allocated his kingdom to his three sons; Salm, Tur, and Iraj. Iraj was Fereyduns youngest and favored son and inherited the best part of the kingdom namely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran - Iran . Salm inherited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor - Asia Minor (" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCm - Rūm ", more generally meaning the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire - Roman Empire , the Greco-Roman world, or just "the West") and Tur inherited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia - Central Asia (" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan - Tūrān ", all the lands north and east of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxus - Oxus , as far as China), respectively. This aroused Irajs brothers envy and encouraged them to murder him. After Irajs murder, Fereydun enthroned Irajs grandson, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuchehr - Manūchehr , before his decease. Manūchehrs attempt to revenge his grand fathers murder initiates the Iranian-Turanian wars.
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Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:12
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i read that Mahmut of Ghazne didnt liked shahnameh becouse it
understimated Turan.? Tur inherited Turan(central asia) doesnt that
means they are Turkic?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:40
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Turan is not underestimated.
No, Soghdiana and Bactria were the kingdoms of Central Asia, they were both Iranian kingdoms.
The Turkic tribes were not in, or at most prominent, in the region at this period. ------------- |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:35
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which period?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:50
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and who is Afrasiyab? i heard that he represents the Alp Er Tunga in the Scythian Myths ------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:00
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You can research this all on google, my friend. Afrasiyab desended from Kay-Khosrow, the Iranian King.
If he was Alp er Tunga his name would have resembled Alp er Tunga, that is just conjecture. ------------- |
Posted By: GhengisKhan
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:24
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Alp Er Tunga was Turk leader of Schytians(Sakas).
Turk tribes in schtians called him Alp Er Tunga
 .İranic peoples in Empire called him Efrasiap.Here ı found poem,it wrote by a Turk schaman after Al Er Tonga's death,in schytian language:
Alp Er Tonga Öldi-mü
İsiz ajun kaldı-mu
Ödlek öçin aldı-mu
Emdi yürek yırtılur
Begler atın argurup
Kadgu anı torgurup
Mengzi yüzü sargarıp
Kürküm angar türtülür
Könglüm için örtedi
Bütmiş başıg kartadı
Keçmiş ödük irtedi
Tün kün keçip irtelür
Ödlek atıg kevredi
Yunçıg yavuz tovradı
Erdem yeme sevredi
Ajun begi çertilür
Divan'ı Lugat'it Turk-Kaşgarlı Mahmut
This language is old Turkish  |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:53
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Alper Tunga oldimi Isiz acun kaldimi, hahaha this is the most lovely poem I have ever heard. ------------- |
Posted By: Maziar
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 14:36
Completly wrong! You have read what Zagros wrot above, did you? Afrasyab (and not Efrasiab) was the Son of Kay Khosrow according to Shahnameh. And there was never an Alp Er Tunga between Scythians, becouse alp Er Tnuga is a mythical Hero of Turks, not a real person. When would you people differ between myth and reality? |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:15
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Yes, let's not get Iranian and Turkic legends and myths mixed up with each other. ------------- |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 12:24
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alp er tunga and efrasiyab are the same person
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 05:30
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AFAIK Both in Divan-i Lugat-it Turk (1073-1077) by Mahmud Kashgari and in Kutadgu Bilig (1069-1070) by Yusuf Has Hajib, Alp Er Tunga is identified as Afrasiyab. However, these books are written more than a millenium later than the life of the person in question; therefore I think we cannot definitely say they were the same person. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:18
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Kotumeyil wasn't the Shahnama written during the same period? ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:31
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Yes, Shahnameh was written around year 1000; but Avesta was ancient. ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:37
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Exactly, the Shahname is being used to determine Afrasiyab. The Shahname was a great work but we know it's history is not accurate. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:40
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Does Avesta also say that Afrasiyab was descendant of Kay Khosrow? ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 15:42
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No, but what the Avesta does say is that the Turanians and the Iranians were one people with different religions.speaking the same language - probably proto-Aryan.
The most direct descendants of the Turanians as far as I see are the Nuristanis. They have almost all been coverted to Islam, but their pre Islamic religion fits in with that described by the Avesta.
I am sorry guys but there is no way that the Avesta or Shah nameh Turanians are the ancestors of Turks. ------------- |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 16:18
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Thank you, Zagros. Do you have a link for Avesta in English? I would appreciate that... ------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 16:31
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Have you read E. Blochet article named as Le nom des Turks dans lAvesta or J. Marquart's studies? They do link Turkic people's to Tur/Turan, Marquart says that Turan is referred to as being inhabbited by Chinease and Turkic people's who were at war with Iran?
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Hushyar
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 00:29
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name Turk as Tu-cheh appeared for the first time in 6th century in chinese chronicles, is it any evidence that this name was used befor it in the form of Turk?
Bulldog
is your quote originally from ozturkler site?
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 05:44
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http://www.ishwar.com/zoroastrianism/holy_zend_avesta/ - http://www.ishwar.com/zoroastrianism/holy_zend_avesta/
This is Zend Avesta.
http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/index.htm - http://www.zoroastrian.org/GathaSongs/index.htm
Gathas. ------------- |
Posted By: kotumeyil
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 07:38
Thank you !------------- [IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg"> |