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Bulgarian participation in WW 1

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bulgarian participation in WW 1
    Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 14:43
Originally posted by Spartakus

We did not "cleanse" anything.
 
Apparently Greek soldiers who took part in the ethnic cleansing disagree with you:
 

By order of the King we are setting fire to all the Bulgarian villages, because the Bulgarians burned the beautiful town of Serres, Nigrita, and several Greek villages. We have shown ourselves far more cruel than the Bulgarians.

 
Here we are burning the villages and killing the Bulgarians, both women and children.

We took only a few [prisoners], and these we killed, for such are the orders we have received.

We have to burn the villages-such is the order-slaughter the young people and spare only the old people and the children. 

What is done to the Bulgarians is indescribable; also to the Bulgarian peasants. It was a butchery. There is not a Bulgarian town or village but is burned.

We massacre all the Bulgarians who fall into our hands and burn the villages.

Of the 1,200 prisoners we took at Nigrita, only forty-one remain in the prisons, and everywhere we have been we have not left a single root of this race.

We picked out their eyes [five Bulgarian prisoners] while they were still alive.

The Greek army sets fire to all the villages where there are Bulgarians and massacres all it meets.  God knows where this will end.

These are quotes from captured letters belonging to the Greek army. Their source is well documented by the Carnegie Report, the most authoritative account of the two Balkan Wars.
 
Source:


Edited by bg_turk - 06-Nov-2006 at 14:44
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 14:56
Again,you are using the Carnegie report and only that.Do you really believe that i would seriously discuss having as a base only that?I want official reports of the Hellenic goverment and the Entente of that time,i want official records of the Hellenic Army and it's allies,i want Military Analisys of Operations from Hellen and non-Hellen analysts and Generals,i want the most accurate report regarding the synthesis of the population in Macedonia during that time.I want objective and historically prooved estimations of how many people exactly  lived in the area,how many people could the area support/fed until that time.I want objective historical reports on the Macedonian issue before and after the Balkan Wars.

Reports and records not one report.


Edited by Spartakus - 06-Nov-2006 at 14:57
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 14:59
Originally posted by Spartakus

We did not "cleanse" anything.We made evacuations of certain areas from Bulgarian populations and we exchanged then and those who hand't left yet with Hellens of Bulgaria.The numbers are 50.000 Bulgarians and 30.000 Hellens.30.000 Hellens,which means that Hellenic presence in Bulgaria in that time was more than vivid.

Concerning the Carnegie report,ok nice poem you have learned there.The only thing you know from school is the Carnegie report? Just because you have some kind or report,this does not mean that this report is the freaking Bible!It's one report ,only one report which is under heavy doubt.
What about the Statistics of
 
(a) the Mixed Commission for the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey
 
and
 
(b) Mixed Commission for Greco-Bulgarian emigration.
 
Are more reliable ?? Bulgarians sighned in those emigrations and figuresWink Dont you think?
 
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:00
Carnegie report is absolutely neutral.Do you think that hellenic government would give a real numbers and reliable information.For now the only accurate and reliable source for Balkan wars is this report.Everything else can be a product of greek,serbian or bulgarian propaganda and nationalistic interests.
    

Edited by Krum - 06-Nov-2006 at 15:01
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:07
I want the numbers and records given by my goverment,so i can compare them with modern day studies,reports ,estimations.For example,you can say that they were 200.000 Bulgarians there.But we must take under consideration the fertility of the Macedonian land.How many people could Macedonia actually sustain?And what about the others?Hell,Macedonia of early 20th century is not New York for God's shake!In a report,you just have one man stating things.The accusation of cleansing is very heavy to be examined only by one report.It's hilarious even to think of it.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:10
Originally posted by akritas

What about the Statistics of
 
(a) the Mixed Commission for the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey
 
and
 
(b) Mixed Commission for Greco-Bulgarian emigration.
 
Are more reliable ?? Bulgarians sighned in those emigrations and figuresWink Dont you think?
 
You are quoting this from
Racial Migrations in the Balkans during the Years 1912-1924
by A.A.Pallis
?
 
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  Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:15
There was an exchange of population between Greece and Bulgaria.
The numbers of the Greek population in Bulgaria and the Bulgarian in Greece are mentioned there.
The Greek population  in eastern Rumelia was not negligible
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 15:18
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by akritas

What about the Statistics of
 
(a) the Mixed Commission for the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey
 
and
 
(b) Mixed Commission for Greco-Bulgarian emigration.
 
Are more reliable ?? Bulgarians sighned in those emigrations and figuresWink Dont you think?
 
You are quoting this from
Racial Migrations in the Balkans during the Years 1912-1924
by A.A.Pallis
?
 
You asked me again this question in the lock thread.Is not only Pallis that use these figures.


Edited by akritas - 06-Nov-2006 at 15:19
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 14:11
Text of diplomats or observers are useful in historical research,but it is out of any historical base to constract a view of a historical era by a single source (Carnegie became the Quran or Gospel!Smile it comes every 3rd post! )

Ont he other hand it would be more serious someone to base his opinion on neutral sources as the League of Nations

Greek Macedonia's Population
1912                                                            1926
Greeks        513.000       42.6%            1.341.000           88.8%
Bulgarians  119.000         9.9%                 77.000             5.1%

Neuilly Treaty -1919 : -92.000 Bulgarians of Macedonia exchanged with 46.000 Greeks of Eastern Rumelia

(the difference of the 2 numbers of Bulgarians (119.ooo-92.ooo=27.ooo / 77.ooo (=50.000)) comes from the join of Greek Eastern Macedonia to Greek state after the victory at 2nd Balcan War,and the Bulgarian population of this area)

The difference of Greek population comes out of exchange after Lausanne treaty -1923 (1.300.000 Greeks from Asia Minor) ,the 46.000 Greeks of Eastern Rumelia and those of Eastern Macedonia.

So ,i would like to see some serious Evidence about this "ethnic cleansing" rather than screams and (again) Carnegie Smile
Numbers dont lie.




Edited by Brainstorm - 07-Nov-2006 at 15:55
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 07:59
Originally posted by Brainstorm

Text of diplomats or observers are useful in historical research,but it is out of any historical base to constract a view of a historical era by a single source (Carnegie became the Quran or Gospel!Smile it comes every 3rd post! )

Previous Ottoman censuses, population estimates by the Servian and Bulgarian, and those have been posted and discuess multiple times before here on this forum.


So ,i would like to see some serious Evidence about this "ethnic cleansing" rather than screams and (again) Carnegie Smile
Numbers dont lie.

Can you please provide sources for the numbers that you have posted? Do they represent only the postwar refugee fluxes, or do they include also those expelled and killed by the Greek army during the invasion of Macedonia?

And finally, what would you consider "serious" evidence? That which conforms to your distorted view of history maybe?
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  Quote alexISS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 08:56
Originally posted by bg_turk

And finally, what would you consider "serious" evidence? That which conforms to your distorted view of history maybe?

Do you consider your view of history undistorted and objective?
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music" Groucho
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  Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:04
I want to add this photo of my grandfather's big brother Stauros who killed in  1917-18 somewhere near Kilkis.We don't have many informations about his death because his family wasn't informed, he must be buried in that area.


http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/8607/staurospw7.jpg



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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:28
League of the Nations is serious evidence. Don't you think ?

As for WW1 -1916,try to find info about the Bulgarian invasion in Eastern Macedonia.
Thousands of people where killed and others where expelled into Bulgaria to work-in order to change the population status of the area.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:52
We already understood that evil bulgarian berserks trained by Austria and later by fascist Germany killed millions of saint Greeks who did nothing to nobody.  The later only played sirtaki, ate feta and drank raki and were so peacefull that only bulgarian barbars could do something bad to such friendly people. After admiting this, could you all kindly return back to the topic?
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:57
What kind of nonsense is this Anton ?

There is a continuous effort to "prove" an ethnic cleasning of Bulgarians in Macedonia,while in the same time the exact same tactics where followed by both sides.

According to real numbers there was no large scale ethnic cleansing by both sides,but for sure terrible crimes.

And it s part of the topic,since Bulgaria invaded the areas of Serres ,Drama and Kavala in 1916,during WW1.


Edited by Brainstorm - 08-Nov-2006 at 12:01
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 12:03
Everybody who is more or less educated understands this, Brainstorm. But I do not consider the discussion who is more evil in Balkans is an aim of this topic. Do you?
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  Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 12:19
Originally posted by Anton

Everybody who is more or less educated understands this, Brainstorm. But I do not consider the discussion who is more evil in Balkans is an aim of this topic. Do you?


Yes,but unfortunately many (incl.some times me and u) ,get in the temptation to answer a silly provokating post ,by a nationalist or sneaky/nationalist member.(for whom the bell tolls? )

Ok,let's end it here.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 12:25
Originally posted by Brainstorm


Ok,let's end it here.
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  Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 15:03
After all,our ancestors lived in a terrible time when the world was obsessed by hate and wars.Everbody did terrible crimes,some lost many things unfairly,others took something that was not rightfully their.And from all this suffered innocent people.But that was the world,the fate of lossers was in the hand of winners.We all know what was the result and consequences.The decisions after WW1 just send the world into a preparation for another world war.But we are humans,we always make mistakes.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 12:01
Originally posted by Brainstorm

Neuilly Treaty -1919 : -92.000 Bulgarians of Macedonia exchanged with 46.000 Greeks of Eastern Rumelia

 
Not to trigger an ended discussion, but I think this shall be "Western Rumelia" which was under Bulgarian control between 1912-1918 and Bulgars were located over there while Eastern Rumelia is the region named where Edirne(formerly Adrianople) sits on
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Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

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