Bulgarian participation in WW 1
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Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15823
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 11:57
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Topic: Bulgarian participation in WW 1
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Subject: Bulgarian participation in WW 1
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 03:58
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Here's a great bulgarian video showing some bulgarian soldiers in the trenches and after that charging against the english and french at the first battles at Doiran. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUoV3cKeAJk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUoV3cKeAJk The soldiers at other fronts were in similar situation so it will be interesting for people from other nations to see it.  Edit: the first part may get a little boring but after 5:00 its great.Especially the attack "on knife" (as bulgarian generals called it) at the very end of the video. |
Replies:
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 10:35
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In the begining bulgarian forces performed perfectly.We crushed serbian army which fought very well against Austro-Hungarian Empire.In fact it was a total disaster for Serbia.Remains of their forces ran like rabits to be saved by allies navy.
Bulgaria also fought well against Romania on the northern front.We aslo occupied Buchurest and only one time bulgarian forces faced russian forces.And the bulgarian cavalry defeated Cossacks which was a great victory. The situatuin with Greece was different and not because of Greece but because of diplomatic moves.First bulgarian forces advanced fast but bulgarian and german politics decided to stop actions because they still wanted to get Greece as ally.It was a mistake becuse Greece joined the enemy and began a positional warfare.After that it was hard for bulgaria to stand against greek,french and british forces. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 12:20
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You may wish to encircle the link in URL tags so that it is clickable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUoV3cKeAJk - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUoV3cKeAJk In WW1 Turkey and Bulgaria were allies. A similar episode, but in much larger proportions, occurred in Gallipoli when Britain and her allies were defeated by Kemal Ataturk, the father of the Turks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeeTQXEePx8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeeTQXEePx8 Another one in Turkish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLNPn_XAeCw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLNPn_XAeCw ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 13:16
Yes. "And the english invited the bulgarian general Vladimir Vazov to be at the remembrance gathering in England.The flags of the english divisions who fought there were lowered before the general who personified the bulgarian soldier who did not surrender at Doiran." Taken from newspaper 'Bulgarian Army' |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 06:41
Yes. This is exactly how WW I was like: choreographed by fat, chubby guys to the accompaniment of sentimental music. Nice German helmets, by the way. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 07:31
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Prime minister Radoslavov on the entry of war here:
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/bulgariaatwar_radoslavov.htm - http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/bulgariaatwar_radoslavov.htm
Here is some general info about the bulgarian army at that time.The total mobilased troops for the period of 1915 to 1918 was 1 200 000(in 1914 is 270 000)
Machineguns:248 "Maxim" HMG at 10.09.1915 (4 at regimental level, late war 32 in each regiment). More MG supplied during the war.
the sutuation with the artilery was:1915-240battaries(960pieces) 1918-320 (1280 pieces).Coastal, Anti-air and fortress guns are not included
The army also had
251 000 Manlicher rifles, 9 500 Manlicher carabins, 13 000 Mauser rifles, 3 600 Martiny, 1000 serbian rifles, 55 000 Berdana 2, 13000 Krnka, and some other but dont remember what ------------- 
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Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 07:52
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Not to become too dry this thread here is some pics:
Ottoman and Bulgarian officers at the dobrudja front 1916
 Horse guard cav
 Somewhere in Macedonia.No idea where perhaps it is not even there
 1918 again no idea where that is
 -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 08:02
Is from
http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/bulgariaatwar_radoslavov.htm - http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/bulgariaatwar_radoslavov.htm
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Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 08:10
 -------------
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Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 01:23
So what music will be better?Cannibal Corpse? |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 16:00
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Helleno-Bulgarian relations became very bad since the 1890's when Bulgarian paramilitary forces attacked in Hellenic populations in modern day Hellenic Macedonia,in order to make them leave.Bulgaria was the first to attack Hellenic forces in the second Balkan War.After their defeat in 1913,Helleno-Bulgarian relations became even worse.So,after Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire,both enemies of Hellas, entered the War in the side of the Central Imperial Block,it would be really stupid for the Hellenix State to enter in the same alliance with it's current enemies.Of course,the situation of the Hellenic involment in WWI is pretty complex. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 16:24
Was it signifficatnly better before 1890's?  ------------- . |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 16:33
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Well,Bulgarians were not attacking Hellenic populations before the 1890's,from what i can remember. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 16:43
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They were attacking Hellenic population and vice versa 1500 years before. Don't try to make Hellenic population as more "right" than bulgarian -- this will lead to nowhere. And definitely not help to support present more or less good relations, will it? ------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 19:07
Bulgaria did not attack Greece first, Greece was the first to initiatate the excesseses against the Bulgarian Slavic peasantry in Makedonia.
Here is a nice Greek poem from the time about the savage monsters that attacked Greece: Sound friendly, doesn't it? The Bulgarian liberation of Makedonia during WW1 was IMO a just act which allowed the rightful Slavic owners of this land, expelled by the Greek invaders during BWII, to return. All this inforation, and more, is available in the Carnegie report from 1913 accessible at http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/chapter2_3.html - http://knigite.abv.bg/en/carnegie/chapter2_3.html ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 19:29
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BG_turk, I don't think there is a reason to dicuss who started first. ------------- . |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 02:28
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It isn't just.It's historicall reality.Bulgarian expansionism leaded to an aggresive policy against the Hellenic populatons in Hellenic Macedonia.During the Ottoman Rule,there were no hostilities between Hellens ,Slavs and Turks or other muslims.At least until the end of the 19th century,when Balkan Nationalism/Patriotism,as well as the Hellenic one,started to emerge.The Hellenic State was economically too weak to wage a paramilitary campaign against the Bulgarian population in the are of modern day Helllenic Macedonia during the entire 19th century.Simple as that. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 04:42
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Yes, you are more or less right. Especially, if we not keep into account constant opposing of Greek Church for creation independent Bulgarian church, to make bulgarian schools in churches in Bulgaria, some cases of burning of Bulgarian books in some bulgarian monasteries etc. This was some sort of friendly behaviour. I do not try to excuse bulgarian behaviour,I just want to show that except Nationalism/Petriotism bulgarians had many claims as well. ------------- . |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 07:45
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I don't know much about the Balkan situation in WWI- the Bulgarians were fighting for the Allies or Axis? ------------- |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 07:47
I dont know for me but you are very brainwashed person.I admit that bulgarian rebels(this is the right word) did some crimes agaisnt turrkish and greek population.But in comparison what greeks did to our population,oh man we cant talk for any comparison.For centuries greeks were the main menace for bulgarian culture and nationality.You think that we are a second hand people(not everybody of course,but most).But what about the rights of slavic bulgarian population which was much much more than hellenic in Macedonia.And to say that Bulgaria started second balkan war is absolutely ridiculous.Greece and Serbia had a secret pact agaisnt Bulgaria and provoked bulgarian forces many times.You just wanted a war to take territories that was rightfully our.And it appear that Serbia and Greece together were too weak to defeat Bulgaria.We all know that Bulgaria lost the war because of Romanian invasion.If Romania didnt enter the war greece and serbia would suffer a total crushing defeat. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 07:52
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This always happens on these threads- why do people have to constantly bring national pride and supremacy in to history? That's not the mark of a good historian ------------- |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 07:55
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Because that are facts. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 09:32
The Germans, always with the Germans. In the next world war we'll probably be with them again (especially since we're together in one EU). Btw, what does Slavi's clip of "Iovano, Iovanke" (in the first post) have to do with the Bulgarian participation in WWI? ------------- |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 09:57
The greek army was trapped in the Kresna Gorge(Kresnensko Defile) and was left at the mercy of the bulgars.Just when the situation was normalising Romania and Turkey invaded where we had no troops spare to place.No country can survive surrounded battling on 4 fronts. |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 10:02
Read in the beginning you can understand bulgarian.This was a battle in WW1. |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 10:03
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Yes thats right,but ottomans stopped.They wanted only Adrianople.The situation with romanians is different.They entered bulgaria nad headed toward Sofia.Bulgarian government couldnt do anything but to surrender.The greek army was trapped in a pocket as Ludovik say.We also stopped serbians advance and pushed back.The result would be a victory for Bulgaria.I dont think there is a country that will win against four surrounding enemies. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 10:13
If this and if that... Bulgaria lost both in 2nd Balcan war and WW1. These are the only facts. |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 10:15
Yes.But another fact is that Greece wasn't the reason for the losses so don't swagger. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 14:38
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 14:44
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And in the end,put your stupid ego back to your brains.It's not the country with the toughest military that matters.It's the country that can survive,with or without the best military forces.Hellas entered WWI ,while being in a Civil War situation.Our State was divided in 2 States,while the economy was devastated.Yet,we managed to reach Western Thrace and fight against a unified enemy which was equipped and trained by the Germans.It's not our fault that your allies sucked. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 16:45
Spartacus, with all my respect, do you really believe that Bulgarians were trained berserks that fought against Hellens, the white knights, who were alone in this dark world?  You signifficantly oversimplify the situation. ------------- . |
Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 17:17
Ok it seems that its becoming quite hot so before something else happen:
 And since the souternfront is too hot for my liking I'll move to the northen front and that is.On September 1 1916 Bulgaria declared war on Romania so a new front had been opened in Dobrudja.There there was Third bul. army wich included 4th-preslav division, Cavalary division and one brigade, and latter Firsy shop division.All toghether 100 000 men agains 150 000 romanians who were reinforced with 3 russian divisions.
The first objective was the capture of Tutrakan fortress.The fortress was A series of redoubts stationed in two lines with deep thrench between the lines.Agains its garrison of 63 000 men 4th preslav division(22 000).On 5 September the commander gen. Kiselov decided not to besige the fortress but to capture it with direct assalut.Around 100 guns of the division maneged to destroy a narrow part of the front.After that the bulgarians attacked and captured that part of the line.The romanians panic and left the whole first line.On 6 September reinforced the romanians tried to retake the first line.The attack was a complate failure and imidiate after the unsucsesfull attack 4th Pr. div. attaced the second line and captured it.Total around 30 000 romanians died 28 000 captured only 2000 escaped on the other side of Dunabe.For Bulgaria 1600 death and 6 300 wounded
My eyes are closing and perhaps tomorow I will proseed -------------
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Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 04:53
LOL,LOL,LOL!!!!!!Someone's blood is really up.Calm down man.So much emotions and irritation will cause you a heart attack.  ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 05:05
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If you want detailed information for war crimes during balkan wars read The Carnegie report.There you will see what we,you and serbs have done during wars. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 06:31
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I never said that Bulgarians are a sub-race.?Nope.Did i said that Bulgarians were berserkes and Hellens the white knights ?Nope.Did i mention any war crimes,?Nope.All these things are mentioned by you.Don't know why,maybe because you do not understand ,i do not know.Well,let me say again what i said previously,since you read only my very last post,as it seems,and ignoring the rest:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif -
- - Bulgarian rebels?Rebels against whom?They were paramilitary forces guided by the Bulgarian goverment.The Slavic population was a majority in Northren Macedonia (Modern Day F.Y.R.O.M etc),but in the Southern Macedonia,which is Modern day Hellenic Macedonia ,the Hellenic population was the majority.Therefore,when the Hellenic Army reached the Macedonian territory,they found slavic populations,but fewer than the Hellenic ones.Those Bulgarians left the area after the Bulgarian defeat in WWI,under the treaty of Neigy ,according to which Hellenic populations of Bulgaria would be exchanged with Bulgarian populations from Hellenic Macedonia.As it happened:50.000 Bulgarians left for Bulgaria and 30.000 Hellens came to Hellas from Southern Bulgaria (Fillipoupolis etc.).They were not massacred,they were not hunted down.They were simply exhanged. - - Concerning the pact between Hellas and Serbia,it was a defensive aggreement,signed in 1913.And it was not a secret:If Serbia was attacked,then Hellas had to assist Serbia with it's own military.Of course,all three countries wanted more territories,but Bulgarian forces were the ones who firstly attacked at Hellenic military regiments.And then ,Hellens responded along with the Serbs,as their aggreement stated.Both wanted to isolate Bulgarian expansionism ,in their favor.It's politics my friend.Nothing peculiar.Every country defend it's own interests.That's what Hellas and Serbia did.It's not our fault that Bulgaria had to fight alone. - - Now,all countries,Serbia-Hellas-Bulgaria wanted more territories.And all countries would shed their blood to take more territory.Bulgarians wanted to reach Thessaloniki and the Agean Cost,Serbs wanted the area around Monastiri,we wanted the area of Modern Day Western (Hellenic) and Eastern ( Turkish) Thrace.The complex of the Balkan wars,was that all three countries had their popualtions in the same area ,and they were all mixed up.So,it would be natural for them to end up fighting for a territory that everybody required for his own. - - ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 07:05
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The Bulgarians occupied Kavala illegally to force an exit to the Aegean, it was never included in the treaty against the Ottomans. This has always a strategic aim of the Bulgarian state since its ineption. Also, Bulgaria was the big winner of the First Balkan War expanding the most in territory; then the others teamed up on her to restore balance, so to speak. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 10:13
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Yes and serbia occupied illegaly the whole macedonia region and they violated the agreement.Lets not talk about the serbian terror in Macedonia.That was the reason why Bulgaria attack serbia.And we had right to take more lands because most of these territories were inhabite mostly by bulgarians.It was our right(I am talking about Macedonia).And you support a country which violeted the previous agreement,so you violeted it too.
I want to say that the reason for Second Balkan war was Macedonia,not our relationships with Greece.So that argue is a little bit unnessesary. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 10:21
Yes you teamed up because you and Serbia were too weak to face Bulgaria and you greedy wanted territories that was rightfully ours.In that time Bulgaria was more powerful and of course the weak will unite to remove the strong.Now it is different.But lets not discuss anymore Balkan wars.It is only a subject that cause hostility and a quarrel between all us. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 10:58
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Bulgaria was a 30 years old small balcan state. It was not the super-power of your dreams :-) (and it was again and again defeated.) |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:19
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It was not a superpower but it was stronger than greece and serbia together.It was a fact.We lost thanks to stupid politicians and bad allies.How we like to say we won most of the battles but lost most of the wars. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:26
Actually more than a 1300 years old, the biggest Balcan state of the time, and defeated once with the united effort of all of it's neghbours. |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:32
From 1878 Bulgaria participated in the following conflicts: Serbo-Bulgarian war-result victory; First Balkan war-result victory; Second Balkan war-result defeat; WWI-result defeat; WWII-result victory; So the overall result is 3:2 :) Or maybe you already counting the Iraq adventure for a defeat?
And no, i don't think that Ferdinand was a bad politician, he was quite good, but German  .
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Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:39
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Lets make a fast review of wars in which Bulgaria participated:
Serbo-Bulgarian war in 1885 -This was the first war for the new bulgarian state.The reason for the war was the reunion of principality of Bulgaria and East Rumelia.It was called also "the war between generals and captains".Bulgaria army was only 7 years old and serbs were much more experienced and prepaired.What happen?First serbs declared war and attacked Bulgaria.Meanwhile bulgarian commanders transfer military division from the turkish border.The serbian advance was stopped in Slivnica which was the turning point of the war.After that bulgarians only attacked and we even reach Nish.The 7 year old,poor and bad trained army crushed serbians very easy and thanks to the world great powers Serbia didnt lost any territory. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:22
Right?Bulgarian population was the main motive / tool for Bulgaria's expansion and military propaganda,not right. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:28
 Bulgaria was allied to the Axis.Bulgarian forces occupied Yugoslavian and Greek territories during the WWII.
After the German defeat in East and West fronts Bulgaria accession to the alliesin September of 1944 when withdraw after the Aliies pressure from the Greek territories one month later.
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Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:53
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There are no eternal allies, there are eternal interests.
After WW2 we managed to reclaim from the lost in WW1/The Second Balkan war territories atleast South Dobruja, if not South Thrace and Macedonia. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 15:57
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Well,this is not victory my friend.Victory would be if you managed to remain in all the territories you occupied back in WWII. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:00
It's just the same to say that the Turkish-Greek conflict (1919-1923) was a failed futile attempt of Greece for military expansion in which the Greek population was the motive/tool. |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 16:05
Both US and USSR occupied all of Europe in WW2, but left most of the occupied countries after the end. So they lost the war? |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 17:31
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It's just the same to say that the Turkish-Greek conflict (1919-1923) was a failed futile attempt of Greece for military expansion in which the Greek population was the motive/tool. Propaganda is natural when war brokes.The aim though defers from level to level.For example,when we talk about the official Hellenic goverment of that time,Word War I was a good chance for expansion in the areas with Hellenic populations ,such as Macedonia ,Thrace,Western Asia Minor.The bysinessmen who supported Venizelos then,saw in that vision called Megali Idea ( "all Hellens unified under the Hellenic State"),an economical expansion in the prosperous economical centers of Western Asia Minor ,of Thessaloniki and Monastiri.This belief was also supported and popular from the fact that most Hellens outside of Hellas were in trouble :Macedonian Hellens with Bulgarians,Asia Minor Hellens with Ottoman Turks.
Both US and USSR occupied all of Europe in WW2, but left most of the occupied countries after the end. So they lost the war?
ehm...what?
 Half of Europe was under NATO surveillance.US troops were positioned in Germany,France,Italy ,UK .Eastern Europe was integrated in the Communist Block ,they became satellites of the USSR while the last Soviet troops left the area in 1991.
Who said they left?They were always there. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 19:01
I agree that it is an inflammatory topic but I have to disagree if you're saying that Salonica or Kavala were "rightfully Bulgarian". Anyway, both Turkey and Greece took advantage of what essentially was, as you've correctly stated, a Serbo-Bulgar struggle for control in Macedonia. Both Greco-Bulgarian and Turkish-Bulgarian borders of today are a result of that war. Lets all hope that it was the last. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 19:09
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Two superpowers, megacountries, military gigants Greece and Bulgaria in a friendly discussion try to reveal which megasuperpower is more megasuper ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 19:15
It depends on what one consider as victory. If you compare the number of casualties in Greece and Bulgaria in WWII, especially that of civilian population then Bulgaria made more sort of speak "right" conclusions after WWI. Following my logic, the real winner of WWII is Sweden. IMHO ------------- . |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:24
Also we surpassed Greece and Serbia not only in military.At the times before the first Balkan War(1911) and WW 2(1939) Bulgaria's living standard was on the 6-th place in Europe and first on the Balkans.During the mandate of Konstantin Stoilov Bulgarian economy surpassed greek and serbian taken both.Even when Greece and Serbia were freed ealier. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:32
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Where you defeated or not both in Balkan Wars and WWI?Yes.The rest are BS. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:42
Yes, they had a lot of bases, strong military presence however almost all of the territories that were under their control during the war were not added to their national territory but remained property of their pre-war owners. Austria, Chechoslovakia, all of Poland,all of Hungary etc. were occupied by the Soviet Union during the war but after that didn't become a part of its territory. During the WW2 the Bulgarian forces reached Austria, so unless there are no independant countries of Jugoslavia and Hungary which were partly under Bulgarian control we cannot claim victory? Your logic is faulty. If you want somehow to question the bulgarian contrybution to WW2 victory, the best way is to mention that most of the war Bulgaria was allied to the Axis but not to invent a new criteria of who's the winner according to wartime occupied territory. No, we were not defeated in the Balkan warS. Only in the second one. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:59
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That could be partially true ,when we talk about NATO.But ,not when we talk about the Warsaw Pact.Soviet Military Presence was strong after the war.And the thought "Hey i have Soviets and Americans "helping" me to guard my yard,while i simply say "yes" in everything the "ask" from me,then i surely believe that i am independent" it's kinda irrational.
Moreover ,in WWII ,we talk about total destruction of the Axis Forces.In the case of Bulgaria ,we cannot talk with the same criteria as in the case of Germany.It is stupid to do so.The basic criteria in the Balkans was and is the land.
I do not invent.I know Balkan history.For a Balkanian ,victory means i take more land,and defeat i loose more land.The rest is a very convenient logic for people whose egoism cannot accept the fact of defeat.Your very last sentence shows that too.Your egoism is hurt.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:59
In the same fashion i can say: Weren't you crushed at Thermopylae?The rest doesn't matter. The odds are the same-outnumbered.(like us in second balkan war) |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:09
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The rest do not matter ,when you do not examine them. Here we do not examine the rest.Here we do not examine the military operations of the Balkan Wars ,WWI and WWII.Here we have Bulgarian members who say:"We were defeated only in the second war(like it matters,everybody won in the first war),we were better,we kicked everybody's asses in the Balkan peninsula ,we were the victims of Serbian-Greek barbarity,we hurt nobody,we were member of the Axis forces,but we were not defeated in WWII."
 ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:13
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It seems that your ego is hurt simply because you didnt win that wars,others won them for you.
About WW2 Bulgaria should be considered a winner.We fought only against axis.Everything else was defence(allies air raids).And we won territories(south Dobrudja) ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:14
Also we had the greeks(Nikodemos) in the thread "Second arab siege of Constantinople" saying "Byzantia could have taken care of everything by itself those 50 000 bulgarians who came to help didn't matter.So don't talk about egoism |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:19
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Is Nikodemos here?Nope,so your argument is totally out of place and time.If you do not remember ,you talk with Spartakus ,not with Nikodemos. On the other hand,i talk with 3 bulgarian members,one of whom talked about "the Bulgarian terror of the Byzantines",like the Byzantines did not know terror until Bulgarians.No,no ,no my friend ,they did not know the Arabs,the Persians,the Avars,the Petzenegs,the Turks,the Normads and on and on! ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:26
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I think the ratio is 4 to 1 and you are the only one who was a little bit rude.
------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 13:50
You fought against ALLIES(Greece,British and Yugoslavs) only.
Below is German map from the USNARA, CODE T311.179), that shows clear where was the Bulgarian forces in the North Greece(East Macedonia and West Thrace) during the occupation at the WWII.
 Below is the Hitler Order(18 April 1941, Bundesarchiv,Militarachiv Freiburg,164 Infanterie Division) that allow the entrance of the Bulgarian Armed forces in North Greece (East Macedonia and West Thrace)
 And the last map show clearly where were the Bulgarians Armed forces in ocuupieed Allied lands at the WWII.
 -------------
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Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:02
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We didnt fight with these counties,we only occupied them.
In most of these territories(in serbia) there was not any resistance because there lived mostly bulgarians.I dont accept it as war. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:16
no further comment ......because is useless
 -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 14:58
My Greek and Bulgarian friends! Aren't you ashamed of that discussion? How old are you?  ------------- . |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 15:01
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Old enough to behave like childrens. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 17:22
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Tell it to your comrads that Anton. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 17:36
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It seems that this discussion will lead us to nowhere.So lets just stop it.I am off. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 19:24
There was the Allies and Central Powers then, the term Axis weren't used in WW I...And yeah, they were with Central Powers...Entered the war right after the Turkish victory in Gallipoli made sure that Bulgaria was safe to enter the war without intervention, as Greek king Constantine was pro-German, and Romania's situation was completely neutral at the time.
They saw it was a good opportunity to finish off Serbia and gain control over today's FYROM and Skopje ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 19:29
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About Bulgarian intervention in WW II, it is true that it was a "light" intervention...Bulgarian troops didn't take part in the attack to Yugoslavia and Greece...There were intentions to join to Axis at first, but Turkey counted Bulgarian war of declaration to Greece as a casus belli to join the war, so they backed down when the Italians attacked...Later, Yugoslavia collapsed in a week and it was after Yugoslavia's collapse that Bulgaria had joined the Axis, and while German Blitzkrieg was running over Greece, it is true that Bulgarians didn't really joined the invasion part, but they joined to the occupations, which was good for Germans for the area to be controlled, and for Bulgarians to get control of the soil they had been claiming.But overall, this doesn't change the fact that Bulgaria was a part of Axis.
And please keep it civil... ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 09:22
When i write on this forum i write on behalf only of myself not of Greeks,ok? And DONT distort what i write , DONT reproduce my words out of context!!! And finally you should not speak about me when i am not present in the discussion/thread  |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:27
The Bulgarian intervention as regard the Greek part was not light at all. Was hard and more severe from the German or the Italian. Just for the record. -------------
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Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 11:55
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Note that Bulgaria was listed among the the defeated states in WW2.But having in mind that in 1939 Bulgarian teritory did not include soutern Dobrudja and after WW2 Dobrudja was within Bulgaria and Bulgaria didnt have to pay any reparations AFAIK.So after loosing WW2 Bulgaria get South Dobrudja -------------
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Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:00
Not really harder and more severe than Italians and Germans during the three-weeks invasion phase of Greece as far as I know, but surely harder and severe during the occupation phase which lasted for around 3 years. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:27
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"Just for record" -- what Greeks did to civilian Bulgarians and Turks "was not light at all." ------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:40
Did Bulgaria ethnically cleanse, burn villages and destroy churches like Greece had during the Second Balkan War? The Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia was the restoration of justice to all those refugees that have been forced out from their homeland by the barbaric Greek invasion that preceded it. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: nikodemos
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:47
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i have a feeling that a flame war is about to start here... |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:48
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They did! All Balkan nations did ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 12:57
This is the correct quote regarding the Bulgarian intervention at the WWII
@nikodemos
I know when I start or to finish a flame war, at least from my side -------------
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Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:15
 ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:35
Bulgaria tried to remove Hellenic populations in Macedonia in favour of her expansionist policies during the 1890's ,the Balkan Wars and WWI.Oh yes,it did.
Just because you hate my country,it does not make it a worth-noting historical criterium, kid.If you want to spam again,then i suggest leave the forum right now. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 13:58
I will just say to the coment above:you f....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dont you think that you have become arrogant. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 14:04
Spartacus dont play in the bg_turk trap and his nationalistic behaviour. He is known from the odds.
read and think...not only the below thread but any thread that was open from him and locked
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8848&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8848&PN=1
-------------
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Posted By: Isbul
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 15:56
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Now hope that the interest in bulgaria in ww1 is not yet turned to ashes from the flames.
Tutrakan fell, Romania lost around 60000 men.And so Russia had send to help their allies 61st and 115 division, 3th cavalary division, serbo-croatian division.Also the romanians had there five inf. divisions and one cavalary brigade.Bulgaria had three divisions and one cavalary division.The reinforcments of bulgaria consist of 25th ottoman division wich was in terrible shape and one german (or it was austrian?) brigade.Also the entente forces could relly on artillery support from the russian black sea fleet.
On 5 september the russian 61st div unsucsesfully attacked the town of Dobrich.On 6 Sep there were already fights from Dunabe to the black sea coast.Reinforced by two more divisions the russians attacked Dobrich again the town was guarded by iregular soldiers(cooks, sanitars...) and volunteers.The russian attack was turned in to a retreat.The machinegunners at the russian lines mistake the retrating russians for the enemy and opened fire at them.
On 7 sep the serb-croatian div entered in combat.She happen to be thoughest of all and almost maneged to breacktrough but then the cav. div under gen.Kolev attacked from their rear and behind.Almost all of the serb-croat div had been cut down.After the failure the russians retreated in northen dobrudja.After unsucsesfull attack on 17 sep of bulg. third army the bulgarians take defensive positions.On 1 Oct the russian forces several times larger than bulgarian attacked third army.For a whole day third army held their positions, in the afternoon the bulgarian cav.div launced a counter attack and turned the russians in to retreat.
Meanwhile the romanian 3th army embarked in the rear of bulg. 3th army.The two romanian divisions had agains them two companies of border guards.The border guards fight until the evening and retreated.During the night the border guatds launched suprising bayonet attack.Not knowing how much are the attackers the romanians abounden their positions.Thr romanins were in complate choas and their birdge was destroyed by a mine.In their panic the HQ of the rom. army returned the divisions on the other side.On 19 oct the bul. 3th army launched a offensive toward the russian lines and breakthroug on 21 0ct., one russian div. has been destroyed and its banner captured.Latter two more battle banners were added.The chase of the russian forces has been cancled because of heavy raining.In late oct. the russians launched a counter attack.The bulgarian forces were even lesser this time because the 1st div. was on the other side of Dunabe and defeat two romanian divisions at the river of Adrisen and after few days they entered in Bucurest.The russian counter attack was a complate failure.After 5 of January whole dobrudja had been "cleanesed" from the Entente forces.The front was stabilased at the river of Seret in Moldova -------------
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Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 16:34
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Gentlemen, please stick to the topic at hand. I know I'm not a Moderator but I'm enjoying this thread and reading about Bulgarias role in WW1. I'd like to continue doing so. If you want to discuss the tangent you are takign please create a new thread and debate to your hearts content. Lets not turn this into another Balkans flame war. Please. ------------- 
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Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 19:21
Well, the answer is yes, Bulgaria did all of the above. Serbia , Greece and Bulgaria all had paramilitaries in Macedonia just prior to the Balkan wars. Don't tell me that the cetes is a fiction of the imagination of the unfair Greeks. Greeks themselves were not angelic; but the answer to your above question is, yes, Bulgarian forces did all of the above. ------------- " I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so." |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:15
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Some pics and info about the Bulgarian WW1 army:
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balkanarmies19141801gy2.jpg"> 
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balkanarmies19141802wn0.jpg"> 
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balkanarmies19141803lx7.jpg"> 
source: Osprey, Man-At-Arms 356 Armies in the Balkans 1914-18 |
Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:23
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Bulgarian troops on the Southern (Thessaloniki) front during 1916-1918. http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helm1ag6.jpg"> 
http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helm2qv0.jpg"> 
http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helm3ku9.jpg"> 
http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helm4pb4.jpg"> 
Bulgarian artillery near Doiran: http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m16bulgxn4.jpg"> 
http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image009lb6.jpg"> 
http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=image010do2.jpg"> 
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Posted By: Desperado
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:44
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WW1 Bulgarian trench assault groups.
"...The Southern Balkan front was a heavy trench war, with lots of artillery and infantry attacks. There were also assault groups, making sudden attacks on the opposite trenches. The Bulgarian tactic was not only destroying a part of the enemy's trenches and thus preparing path for possible attack, but also capturing alive enemy soldiers, they were considered very good source for information. These groups were armed with the standart army Mannlicher rifles with ordinary bayonets, also knives, pistols, German stick grenades, various types of explosive matherials, German gas masks, M16 steel helmets. The groups consisted of ordinary frontline soldiers and officers, but it seems at least the officers were going though some kind of short education for their role, in frontline conditions - here is a picture of young officer to his mother, on the back written: "Dear Mother, Here, you can see the picture of what our craft is at the positions. This photograph is taken in the Assault course at the Division." /Dated January 22th 1918/." http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post4941137695590un8.jpg"> 
"..Ready to attack. Helmets, stick grenades, rifles, gas masks." On the back: "A part of our assault group on November 4th 1917" http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post4941137688309dl1.jpg"> 
An assault group at arms. Dated 11 June 1918 http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post4941137688499op2.jpg"> 
"...Sometimes the missions were successfull. An assault group has captured two Brits. Fortunately this one is well documented through the text written on the picture. The men are from the 84th Infantry Regiment - one of the later formed regiments, with older reserve offciers, called back to service. That small assult group from that regiment was led by the quite older officer on hte picture, Poruchyk /Lt./ Boris Abadjiev. The successfull attack was made in September 1917, 3 hours after Midnight. On the back side it is also said, that the whole attack was made by 30 men, and those Englishmen were captured by him together with 9 of his men. He was not a show-off, he signed himself only as "Yours, Boris, grandson of the Bismarck, cavalier of the Bravery order, the hunter of Englishmen..." http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post4941137689296hl7.jpg"> 
"...on 20 November 1917 an assult group from the 18th Infantry Regiment has captured POWs from a different sort - French." http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=post4941137689629vk5.jpg"> 
source: http://gmic.co.uk - Gentleman's military interest club |
Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:58
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Excellent photographs and information. Cheers. -------------
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Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 05:42
One of the Basic elements of every Nationalism! Greece was powerfull and brave ,but the bad Allies and politicians lead to the loss in 1922. Turkey was powerfull and brave bad the bad Westerns and sultan split the country in 1914. Bulgaria was brave and powerfull but it was twice humiliated because the bad Allies and politicians. etc etc etc. We are the bravest! Its always the other's fault!  |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 05:46
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PS: This guy Bg_Turk is unbelievable! He is a Bulgarian when he wants to blame Greeks and Turk when he wants to blame Bulgarians! The funniest is that there are many naive enough to reply his provokations!  |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 08:50
I agree. Thanks, Desperado. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 08:54
Well, I would like to think that personal opinion should transcend, and not be limitted to, one's ethnicity. I have always thought lowly of persons who attack the ethnicity of their opponents, rather than the points they make. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:20
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bg_turk, first, if you have not realized it yet, the cleansing of central macedonia by Greece (true) was parallel to the cleansing of eastern Romylia by Bulgaria, and later of Thrace. You accept the first fact, but you deny the second. Thrace was not an ethnically bulgarian region. It was mainly greek (and, well, turkish). Bulgaria tried to bulgarianize it during the occupation of WWII, making that occupation different from the german and italian (which however should not be underestimated, especially the german). ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:32
Hey hey hey!!!!! "cleansing of eastern Romylia by Bulgaria".This is total bul......sh*ts.That region was absolutely bulgarian.Everything else is ridiculous and not serious.So stop talk funny things."It was mainly greek" ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 14:09
I deny nothing. No doubt there were Greeks in Thrace. On the Bulgarian side they were mainly concentreated the Black Sea region (there was a big Greek comunity in Ahtopol for example), but their number was in no way comparable to the number of Bulgarians expelled from Macedonia and the transfer took place mostly in an orderly fassion unlike the expulsion of Bulgarians from Macedonia, who were literally chased out of their burning homes and villages.
I hope I do not need to quote the relevant passages from the Carnegie report again.
------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 14:35
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We did not "cleanse" anything.We made evacuations of certain areas from Bulgarian populations and we exchanged then and those who hand't left yet with Hellens of Bulgaria.The numbers are 50.000 Bulgarians and 30.000 Hellens.30.000 Hellens,which means that Hellenic presence in Bulgaria in that time was more than vivid. Concerning the Carnegie report,ok nice poem you have learned there.The only thing you know from school is the Carnegie report? Just because you have some kind or report,this does not mean that this report is the freaking Bible!It's one report ,only one report which is under heavy doubt. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |