The Shroud of Gllavenica

Originally posted by Patrinos Kastri and Kastro(you know greek so you know what am i saying) are the greek version of the latin castellum,(as in english became castle),and it is used in greek from roman times.As a greek-speaker you know that the man who is from a place named Kastri or Kastro is called Kastriotis. I know that there is a Kastrati tribe but I don't know what its name means in albanian and what's its relation with Kastriotis. I should note that during byzantine times Greeks held the most official chairs in the Empire,while,I think you'll agree Albanians stayed in the mountains(almost all the words about fishing,sea in albanian have non-albanian origins). So the problem we have to solve is why an Albanian is named by a greek surname(not christian greek)(not only Kastriotis but Arianitis too). A theory that I can think which explain this problem is that these families had Greek noble origins from families sent there(from a Kastro area lets say) by Constantinoupolis authorities . (I repeat I put that on the table to discuss it).Also another clue to discuss is that he sometimes referred to himself as Epirote.

First I'm here to do a serious discussion with arguments,and I'm glad you didn't reacted as I excepted...

Arber Z
It is true, the names Kastrioti and Arianiti could be purely greek, if they were Kastriotis and Arianitis. But they could be evem latin, and by the way, they are in this very moment albanian surnames, still in use.
It isn't the final "s" that make a word greek.But the rest suffix -otis,-atis,-itis and of course the word Kastro or Kastri which is the greek version for castellum.The latin form would be Castellanum or something,because  -otis is used only in Greek.
I found that in albanian castle is kala(i suppose from tur. kale) and k�shtjell� which is obviously an albanian version of latin castellum.

I don't think that there are many similarities between our language,just such as it has with armenian or italian because of the IE family),and I'm impressed from your believe that we cannot distinguish a greek from an albanian word.(I exclude the loan words).

(What Kaster means in albanian?)

This is disputable. During byzanthine times there were also some emperors who never mastered greek
Only Justinian is recorded to don't speak greek well but espesially after Heraclius the emperors were or Greek or Greek-speakers.

And regarding the myth of the albanians having no words for the sea, or coast, the wery word, sea, in albanian is DET not borrowed from any other language. It is true, there are many latin words, but there is also a pure albanian nautical vocabulary.
What I mean is that Albanians  were mainly mountainers,don't you agree?


As I told you, many albanians have turkish names, and also greek or latin. This is also connected to their religion
Greeks too. But the turkish surnames we have are derived from turkish words we use.We understand that Karamanlis means the one from Karaman,we use(rare) that turkish suffix -li. Albanians don't understand what Kastriotis and Arianitis mean.
We don't speak about his name Georgios which is greek but it is and christian and international.We speak about his surname which has nothing to do with christian byzantine names.

Albanians in many times were referred as epirotes during the history, because the very term epirote is not an ethnic, but a geographical term.
It depends on the time we are speaking.In ancient times Epirote was an ethnic greek group but I agree that in byzantine times could be  used sometimes geographically because Epirus theme and Despotate wasn't only Epirus but and Albania and Aetoloacarnania.
One more clue is that Kastriotis once stated when he steped Italy that he did it as his ancestor Pyrrus(the Molossian,I believe you believe in the undouptable Greekness of Molossoi and Pyrrus).

Also I want you to comment that:
* IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (http://www.answers.com/topic/arms-of-skanderbeg)

It's from Kastriotis helmet and reffers to Principi Emathie and I suppose you know the Greek region Emathia.

And this is the seal of Kastriotis,writen in Greek and says:
 Alexander (Skender) is an Emperor and a King. Emperor of the Romaic nation (Greeks) and King of the Turks, the Albanians, the Serbs and the Bulgarians.

I can see the position Greeks are...





there were plenty of castros in albania.
Yes there are many castles in Albania...but not castros but k�shtjell�s or kala....




Edited by Patrinos - 02-Nov-2006 at 09:50

 something else, most of the albanian nobility together with the Castrioti family, after the turkish occupation fleed in Italy. Their descendants still live in southern italy and in Sicily, preserving their language, and their names. The names are very similar to the greeks, that is because of byzanthine influence in early times, but they speek albanian, and never spoke greek.

My friend,from my first posts I cleared that I'm not trying to claim Kastriotis as a Greek.I've made some questions on the issue but I still haven't got a convincing answer.

ook above the photo what is written on his seal and which is the position of the Greeks and which that of Albanians.

It was commissioned a while back after Scanderbeg's death(probably after Marinus Barletius, since hs tarted the myth to begin with). The Scanderbeg was never a king so surely he could not hope to be an emperor. Like Musachi later, Scanderbeg's descendents wanted to maintain some kind of claim on the balkans incase something should arise.

Probably the seal was commissioned of the family of Scanderbeg some time in the 16th century. You cannot know exactly. Even, it is not to say whether the seal is a fake (from the 15th or 16th century).

Being married to Donica, Scanderbeg could claim some distant relation to the Byzantine dynasty of the Comnenos as Donica's grandmother was herself a dystant member of that family(hence the surname Komneni in the Arrianiti family later on, as the family neared it's death). However considering the fact that there still existed candidates for the throne deep into Scanderbeg's revolt.
    
Source

As for Emathia, you only have to read Pjeter Budi's description to see where it actually lies:

Towards the border of Macedonia and Bulgaria, there is another region of peoples which is called the Scanderbeg Country, i.e. Ematia (Mat), Benda (Bena), Corbini (Kurbin), Tamadea and Cermenica (�ermenika) situated in the mountains above Kruja and Elbasani (Elbasan...

Source

Now what do you think is more likely? That the Kastrioti gained control of Kruja from a region abreast to it, or from one in a completely different province?


    
    

Edited by Theodore Felix - 05-Nov-2006 at 00:43

Yes dude, I do not know any greek Emathia
My alvane friend leave that *** for albforumi and scopian propagandistic forum...

Patrino, it is not my fault if you dont know anything about the developing of the albanian language (as it never interested to you).
First If you want to speak good greek it isn't Patrino it is Patrinos and Patrine when you adress to me...
Why should I'm interested in albanian??Its an undeveloped language.

Emathia can become Mat same as Lissus can become Lezhe
Note that we are talking about an era not away from us,and the "Emathia" to become "Mat" takes lot of time....

Why Greek byzanthines and not Albanian byzanthines or romanian byzanthines, or vlach byzanthines or anatolian byzanthines or armenian byzanthines or slavian byzanthines. Or is it a registered trade mark???
Greek byzantines because they have greek surnames which show origin of a greek place added with a greek suffix.

Can you exlain me why many albanians would be called Mehmet, or Sami etc? Does that mean that they are turks? No my friend, but the turks influenced our culture, same as the byzanthines (who used greek as an offical language)
Again... I haven't said about his greek but christian name Georgios but for their  surnames  which I can't accept that they were given to some mountainers, isolated,with no much byzantine control tribesmen of the north high mountains of Albania....


Thessalonica has never been a homogeneous city, there always lived greeks, albanians, slavians and vallachians, not to mention jews etc.
What a nice classic albanian argument...
In 1000 Thessalonica was a greek-inhabited city.
Albanians haven't appeared in history yet. Slavians??? Do you think that the emperor would place a slav/bulgar in Thessalonica??? How would he get in Saint Demetrius church???(I suppose you know what I mean,about Saint Demetrius and Slavs....).Vlachs who mentioned that period were nomadic sheepherds away fro Thessalonica. And Jews came much later(end of 15th century) invited by the Turks.


Now this is very naive
There aren't many Aria placenames.....



Yes the albanian muslims were always regarded as turks
At last an arnaout who admits it

while the cristians as greeks
Again Papagiannis?????


and nobody allowed them to learn their language
Who didn't allow to you???
 Choose:

• Mustafa Pasha Bajrakatari
• Ahmet Pasha Dukagjini
• Kara Ahmet Pasha Dukagjini
• Ibrahim Pasha Parga
• Ahmet Izet Pasha
• Ajvas-zade Halil Pasha
• Amzhazade Hysein Pasha
• Arnavuat (Semiz) Ahmet Pasha
• Bajazit Pasha
• Bijikli Ali Pasha
• Damad Ferid Pasha
• Davud Pasha
• etc

Or Ali Tepelenli???

hats why they had to fight and die for it
And why did you fight us???? Many para,e?????

he only problem was that the greeks consideed themselves romaioi, they didnt know what they were.
I consider my self Romaio/Romio, don't I know what I am????
Where have you read that????

I dont see no greeks, but Romaioi, which means cristian orthodox byzanthines, or cristian orthodox romans.
Thats what you understand? it says Albanians,Bulgarians and Romaioi. Who are not albanians or bulgarians leave in this area and identify as Romaioi???Of course Greeks....

And Scanderbeg never was an emperor, and never called himself a king, he was just a prince.
What ever you don't like is fake???????

Menumorut you don't have anything to do and make a tour to greek-related threads and post bs???
Let me and Arber to have a disagreement in the issues we are talking about.
Can you explain your thesis about hellenisation of different people with arguments(if you know this word). And of course the scale of hellenasation.
In another thread you wrote that we are slavs who hellenised and gained dark hair,skin and eyes,do you still believe it???Did the hellenisation process included solarium,hair painting and brown contact lens.
Note that from the ancient times there was a percentage of "light" Greeks but as today a small one.

It seems whatever you don't like you ignore
The toponyms in your sourse are clearly latinised:the Ersenta (Erzen), the Mathia (Mat), the Scumpino (Shkumbin) and the Epasa (Osum) to fit into the latin writing and rules.
Can you give me some examples of -iot suffixes except the Greek-related(suliot,himariot etc) ones in albanian espesially in the north ,I mean real not from your grammatical imagination...
Give some clues about the byzantine-greek influence of the north albanian tribes,is there such influence to change the structure of the language(in this occasion the suffix of the surname)????
You've said that he could be from a toponym Kastrat(which has no meaning in albanian,as you know castle in albanian is kala or k�shtjell�). But why haven't he called Kastratioti?????,isn't the "Kastri-o" version more logical????

Take your pick. Close the topic or let it stay open?

I'll let it stay open under the condition that I don't have to visit here again in order to remind you all of the Codes of Conduct.
    

Edited by Seko - 07-Nov-2006 at 14:43

Somebody who dares to label a language as undeveloped, and always expresses racist views on every nation, like the Patrino does, is a shame for himself, and for his country (I would say even for the Balkans).

Anyway, cum principia negante non est disputandum! The honourable AE member doesnt have a clue on history rather than nationalistic propaganda, and I consider him ignorant therefore.

Seko, I do not believe that closing the topic is the propper measure for some who have a long CV full of offences and non-relevant posts, offending others with megalomanic egocentrism (just to use some greek words). This kind of members should be banned, as they are a barrier on free, cultivated discussions. Anyway, it is not on me to decide.