The Shroud of Gllavenica
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Category: General History
Forum Name: Archaeology & Anthropology
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15324
Printed Date: 14-May-2024 at 15:26
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Topic: The Shroud of Gllavenica
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Subject: The Shroud of Gllavenica
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2006 at 16:21
(Pardon the English, this is my translation from Albanian so it was difficult to completely turn things into proper or "suavi" reporter english)
The Epitaph of Gllavenica The report of the analysis of the treasure of the Arrianiti family of Albania Professors from Brussels, Hungary and Albania have reported the studes on the Epitaph of Gllavenica. Gjergj(George) Arrianiti, the monk that created the treasure of the Middle Ages Alma Mile 08/10/2004 Like this one, there are only three in the entire world. Further envied for its beauty and value, from stolen items collectors and from treasure theives, the Epitaph of Gllavenica has been the last while an object of study of Albanian and foreign historians and scientists. This rare object dated around 1373, in the center of which lies the body of a deceased Jesus Christ, lying on the shroud, surrounded by the Saints and angels, created a mystery for scientists, of which have been interested in uncovering more surrounding the creation of it, along with its realization. The Epitaph of Gllavenica is among the most important objects which we inherited from the Middle Ages of Albania. It is created like a picture, while using all the elements of one., says Frederick Stamati, head of the laboratory of archeometry and conservatism nearby the Institue of National Culture, of which has directed the studies on the Epitaph. According to him, this work, stolen once in 1995, registered one year later and now in the Museum of National History(Albania), has a variety of colors, shadows, symmetricness and a tint of imaginary light , of which lights the entire Epitaph and gives an almost heavenly glow. Unfortunately, our Middle Ages is poor in manuscripts. Studying the makeup of the material structure of an object is like discovering it from the inside and to take the data, from which you can draw out the conclusion. This is the reason why we undertook line of sciencie studies of the material that is used for the realization of the Epitaph., - explains Stamati, whom in the Congress of the Academic from around the world reported the Epitaph and the conclusion of the analysis. These studies are taken from the Laboratory of Archeometry and Conservatism and Restoration, near the Institute of Popular Culture, working together with the Laboratory Center of Museum Restoration of the National Hungarian Museum and the Royal Institute of Inherited Culture in Brussels. For the accomplishment of this study, two well known historian, the Hungarian Marta Jaro and Belgian Jan Wouters, specialists of color analysis of the fabric. According to Stamati, besides achieving the uncovering of the make up of the threads, of which was used in the make-up of the Epitaph, studies of the accomplishments give light on the origin of these threads and its merchant relitionship. For giving a name on the origins of these threads, in the make up of which are uncovered elements of silk, gold, silver and copper. Those studying the piece are refered to the studies of Hoke and Petraschek Heim, whom rellying on the reprt of copper and silver, distinguish between the products created in Europe and the east. According to them, on the basis of this report, the thread used for the Epitaph of Gllavenica is created and traded from the East. This tells us about a trade connection that has existed in the XIV century. Frederick Stamati tells us that the same threads we find on other products that are saved in other European museus. Reagrding the colors, in it we note four main colors on the base: Red, blue, yellow and green. According to him, six centuries have already past and so the light test have noted that there has been color loss, so it is difficult to discuss anything with certainty and to value any of the shades of a while back. Nevertheless, except for the time changes, three shades have been noted for all colors. The shades of each color are used mostly on the clothing displayed in the Epitaphs for the formation of light-shadows, displayed on Saint Luke, Saint Mark and Saint John the Theologian, or for the the distinguishing of different clothes or to shape the lines of the parts of the body. This is done for the hair, beards, lips, eyes, nose, fingers and most importantly for the light-shadows of Jesus., adds Stamati. According to the analysis that are made, the results show that the colors of these are from four flowers and two insects, of which did not just grow in Albania but were exported to the Vatican. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 09:56
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Do you know what means "Gllavenica"?
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 11:43
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Im assuming its a slavic toponym so no. South Albania is filled with Bulgarian names. This is most likely an Albanian corruption.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 12:56
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I think that glava means head in slavic. The -ica is a slavic suffix.
Felix do you know anything else about Arianiti family and its origins,etymology of the name?
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 15:09
The family was considered to be the most powerful Albanian family until Scanderbeg and even for a while after. They controlled lands from Vlore to as far Dibra(Moisi Golemi Arrianiti had that until he was captured and killed by the Turks). George Arrianiti was considered to be the first Albanian to inflict a defeat on the Turks when he ambushed an army sent by Evrenoz(Hodgkinson, Scanderbeg) and then managed to defeat two other armies between 1433-1436. I know that his mothers side had distant links to the Byzantine Comnenos family. thats why he took the surname Komnenos(in Alb: Gjergj Arrianit Komneni) According to John Fine, the Late Medieval Balkans, he states that the family appeared in power around the sametime most other Alb tribes started appearing, after the death of the Dusan Empire. "To the north of Janina two major tribes had emerged. The Arianiti (Araniti) and the Musachi" Around 1421 both him and the Castriot family accepted Ottoman suzerainty. As for the ethnic origins. I could not say. As I stated, the family had come to existance probably during the time of the of the Despotate. They are listed as a tribe so it wouldnt be unlikely if the name had some Byzantine origins which thereafter the Albanian tribesmen used to identify themselves. http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH11.html - Musachi himself wrote quite a lot on him ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 17:39
That`s right! For me is a pleassure to see, that we are thinking equally about that. I asked about that, because in Bulgaria there are few settlements with the name "Glavinica"(Glavinitsa), and one of them is near to the town where i was living before. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 09:26
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Agapimene mou Patrine!
Poly tha itheles to eponimo Arianitis na min exei albaniki katagogh, alla distixos gia sena einai poly albaniko epitheto. Egw i idia exw zhsei stin Ellada pola xronia kai exo dei sta arxeia gramena sta ellinika oti afto to epithieto einai apo albaniki oikogeneia. An zeis Athina mporeis na pas sta arxeia tis Herald... den to thumamai kala alla einai sti Patision kapou kai exei arxeia gia tis oikogenies kai ta epitheta. An kaneis kai ena kalo pasxsimo sto internet tha katalabeis oti einai apo aristokratiki oikogenia tis Albanias kai oi Arianites exoun desmo kai me ton Gjergj Kastriot Skenderbeu. ------------- |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 18:28
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If someone has a comment directed toward a member, there are always Private messages to suit that, which I would recommend. I dont know Greek therefore I cannot say with certainty that that comment is directed toward Patrinos. But I am assuming so. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 06:43
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Hi
.
What I sad is that: You are wrong about the Surname Arianiti. It is not probably Byzantine origin but it is very Albanian last name, and the Albanians never used something to identify themselves. From the centuries Albanians were identified as a very old population. If you knew a little bit more about history probably you shut know right now what Albanians are and from where they come from. But the Greeks and the Serbians are the same: they can take what is not theirs. http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/albania.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianiti ------------- |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 08:39
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Jamander calm down. First I didn't say that Arianitis was a Greek family. I said about their surname which as Kastriotis' surname have meaning in Greek.And I'm curious why did they have greek surnames. I don't think that it has albanian etymology as you said. I know very well what are you and who you are then and now. Don't forget that we have alot of Albanians here in Greece and I have and albanian friends so I've understood your mentality.
Can you say more detailed what Greeks claim that are not "ours",please?
Maybe you seem like the albanians who claim as albanian big parts of greek history as far as Achilles
 judging from your avatar photo...PS I'm glad that you know greek, where did you learn it,ido you live in Greece??
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Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 10:55
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Jamarber, what sort of half breed (apparently with albanian consiousness) are you? ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 19:12
What do you mean "half-breed"??? who is this "pure-breed" here??? What are these racist terms??? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 06:11
| Arber can you answer to my questions(of my previous post) which jamarber don't answer? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 06:17
There's no need to get personal. Please behave yourself. |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 07:28
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Half breed not with degratory meaning. He speaks apparently fluent greek but is albanian.
The question was (is) serious. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 10:39
Which question? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 11:24
| How do you explain that these albanian families had greek surnames??(Kastriotis, Arianitis) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 17:07
How are they Greek surnames? What do they supposedly mean?
And for your information, there's a clan in northern Albania with the name Kastrati.
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Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 08:39
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Welcome Jatagan....Nice start...
The greek version of castle is Kastro. And following the rules of greek grammar the man who is from Kastro is Kastriotis. (see Diodoros Siceliotis,he was from Sicelia). Every Greek when hears that name understand its meaning.Greece has plenty of villages,towns,areas called Kastro or Kastri.
Arianitis means the one who is from Aria.Aria as a placename is present in Greece and etymologiacaly come from Aris(the god of war) following the structure of Greek language became Aria as a toponym(see Alexandria).
A great percentage of Greek surnames has this types of suffixes(-otis,-itis,-atis).For sure it isn't an albanian suffix.What do that names mean in albanian?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 13:41
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Re Patrine giati kourazese bre agori mou??
Edo na sou dosw ena link gia na diabaseis kai sta ellinika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Kastrioti Aristera tha breis stis glwsses kai Ellinika. Ah pare kai allo ena: http://www.blinkbits.com/en_wikifeeds/Gjergj_Kastrioti Akous kapote den upirxan synora opote katalabeneis ti ginete. Ti paei na pei Elliniko onoma, prepei na ksereis oti Kastri exei Latiniki riza episis kai h boria Albania tote htan katholiki opws kai akolouthei na einai se kapies polys. Akoma kai simera yparxei to tribe Kastrati stin Albania sthn poly Dibra. Auto einai kati pou den mboreis na to amfisvitiseis giati einai grameno apo Istorikous. Kai gia na milame kai sobara milame gia kati pou einai meta ta Tirana boria den exei kamia sxesei me tin Ellada. Kai na sou pw kai kati? Egw as poume exw megalwsei stin Ellada kai poles fores mou einai pio efkola na milaw ellinika kai spiti mou akoma ellinika milame alla den eimaste ellines, eimaste Albanoi poly Albanoi mes stin kardia mas kai sto emma mas. Euxarisoume tin Ellada gia tin morfosh pou mas edwse alla den tha riksoume pote tin xora mas pou mas xarise Zwh, thn xora ton Progonon mas, kai tin Agapimeni xora tou Aetou!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 14:42
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I'll answer to you in english so the rest here understand what are we talking about my albanian file. The links that you posted me doen't say anything for his surname's meaning and Kastriotis deep origins.I don't claim that he was Greek(look at my previous posts,I only refer to his surname origins). Kastri and Kastro(you know greek so you know what am i saying) are the greek version of the latin castellum,(as in english became castle),and it is used in greek from roman times.As a greek-speaker you know that the man who is from a place named Kastri or Kastro is called Kastriotis. I know that there is a Kastrati tribe but I don't know what its name means in albanian and what's its relation with Kastriotis. I should note that during byzantine times Greeks held the most official chairs in the Empire,while,I think you'll agree Albanians stayed in the mountains(almost all the words about fishing,sea in albanian have non-albanian origins). So the problem we have to solve is why an Albanian is named by a greek surname(not christian greek)(not only Kastriotis but Arianitis too). A theory that I can think which explain this problem is that these families had Greek noble origins from families sent there(from a Kastro area lets say) by Constantinoupolis authorities . (I repeat I put that on the table to discuss it).Also another clue to discuss is that he sometimes referred to himself as Epirote. Jamarber from those you wrote in your second paragraph you gained my respect. I respect only the Albanians who are proud(but not nationalists-propagandists) for their country and blood and don't try to claim Greekness saying that they are North Epirotes,or even Italians. I suppose you know the word filotimo(i can't translate it,there isn't such meaning in other languages), and Greeks respect you when you don't hit our filotimo by being ungratefull for what Greece offered to Albanians from 90' and of course when you respect greek history. Of course you are Albanian and you must remain Albanian. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 16:33
There's a lot of places called Kastrat in Albania, and even southwestern Kosovo I think to (being right next to Albania it's natural that there'd be some spill off). All the sources of the time say he was from northern Albania and never say anything of a Greek origin. Trust me, if he had some Byzantine lineage, he would have flaunted it big time. I would accept your theory more if he came from south Albania, because the Byzantines always had more control over that area than central or northern Albania, and could have a big effect on the blood of the nobility. But no sources at that the time say that he came anywhere other than north Albania, and make no mention of a non-Albanian origin.
And tht he referred to himself as an Epirote contradicts your claims more than anything. The very first Albanian dictionary, published by a Catholic priest in the 17th century (Frang Bardhi, I think) was called Dictionarium latino-epiroticum. Albania was very often called Epirus in the early modern era (if you want I can post some reports by Albanian Catholic priests from this time that use Epirus and Albania interchangeably).
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 19:14
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Patrinos
You are a newcomer in this forum, and apparently you didnt read much from our previous discussions. It is true, the names Kastrioti and Arianiti could be purely greek, if they were Kastriotis and Arianitis. But they could be evem latin, and by the way, they are in this very moment albanian surnames, still in use.
There are some things that you dont know apparently
1- The Greek language and the Albanian language are not that alien to each other, so you cannot say that a word is greek if it is not albanian or viceversa. There are some similarities in the linguistic aspect. In albanian we also use the suffix -Iot, -It (probably of greek origin) as well as the latin -An, or the turkish -Li
2- The name doesnt show anything, Karamanlis is not turkish apparently. In albania many guys have turkish surnames, even though they are not turkish. The turkish and greek names come from the early empires which ruled albania.
3- Kaster and Ari have meanings also in albanian.
I should note that during byzantine times Greeks held the most official chairs in the Empire,while,I think you'll agree Albanians stayed in the mountains(almost all the words about fishing,sea in albanian have non-albanian origins).
This is disputable. During byzanthine times there were also some emperors who never mastered greek, coming from illyrian or thracian backgrounds. It is true that the latin, and later the greek were official and culture languages, spoken by all the administrators, but this doesnt necessarily show their ethnic background. And regarding the myth of the albanians having no words for the sea, or coast, the wery word, sea, in albanian is DET not borrowed from any other language. It is true, there are many latin words, but there is also a pure albanian nautical vocabulary.
So the problem we have to solve is why an Albanian is named by a greek surname(not christian greek)(not only Kastriotis but Arianitis too).
As I told you, many albanians have turkish names, and also greek or latin. This is also connected to their religion. You should know that every empire, the byzanthine and later the ottoman, never allowed the albanian language to be cultivated, so many people, included some orthodoxes with greek-like surnames, had to die for teaching albanian to their children.
A theory that I can think which explain this problem is that these families had Greek noble origins from families sent there(from a Kastro area lets say) by Constantinoupolis authorities . (I repeat I put that on the table to discuss it).Also another clue to discuss is that he sometimes referred to himself as Epirote. Albanians in many times were referred as epirotes during the history, because the very term epirote is not an ethnic, but a geographical term. And just for your info, there were plenty of castros in albania. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 09:37
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First I'm here to do a serious discussion with arguments,and I'm glad you didn't reacted as I excepted... Arber Z It is true, the names Kastrioti and Arianiti could be purely greek, if they were Kastriotis and Arianitis. But they could be evem latin, and by the way, they are in this very moment albanian surnames, still in use. It isn't the final "s" that make a word greek.But the rest suffix -otis,-atis,-itis and of course the word Kastro or Kastri which is the greek version for castellum.The latin form would be Castellanum or something,because -otis is used only in Greek. I found that in albanian castle is kala(i suppose from tur. kale) and kėshtjellė which is obviously an albanian version of latin castellum. I don't think that there are many similarities between our language,just such as it has with armenian or italian because of the IE family),and I'm impressed  from your believe that we cannot distinguish a greek from an albanian word.(I exclude the loan words).(What Kaster means in albanian?) This is disputable. During byzanthine times there were also some emperors who never mastered greek Only Justinian is recorded to don't speak greek well but espesially after Heraclius the emperors were or Greek or Greek-speakers. And regarding the myth of the albanians having no words for the sea, or coast, the wery word, sea, in albanian is DET not borrowed from any other language. It is true, there are many latin words, but there is also a pure albanian nautical vocabulary. What I mean is that Albanians were mainly mountainers,don't you agree? As I told you, many albanians have turkish names, and also greek or latin. This is also connected to their religion Greeks too. But the turkish surnames we have are derived from turkish words we use.We understand that Karamanlis means the one from Karaman,we use(rare) that turkish suffix -li. Albanians don't understand what Kastriotis and Arianitis mean. We don't speak about his name Georgios which is greek but it is and christian and international.We speak about his surname which has nothing to do with christian byzantine names. Albanians in many times were referred as epirotes during the history, because the very term epirote is not an ethnic, but a geographical term. It depends on the time we are speaking.In ancient times Epirote was an ethnic greek group but I agree that in byzantine times could be used sometimes geographically because Epirus theme and Despotate wasn't only Epirus but and Albania and Aetoloacarnania. One more clue is that Kastriotis once stated when he steped Italy that he did it as his ancestor Pyrrus(the Molossian,I believe you believe in the undouptable Greekness of Molossoi and Pyrrus). Also I want you to comment that: * IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *, which means: Jhezus Nazarenus * Principi Emathie * Regi Albaniae * Terrori Osmanorum * Regi Epirotarum * Benedictat Te (http://www.answers.com/topic/arms-of-skanderbeg) It's from Kastriotis helmet and reffers to Principi Emathie and I suppose you know the Greek region Emathia. And this is the seal of Kastriotis,writen in Greek and says: Alexander (Skender) is an Emperor and a King. Emperor of the Romaic nation (Greeks) and King of the Turks, the Albanians, the Serbs and the Bulgarians. I can see the position Greeks are...  there were plenty of castros in albania. Yes there are many castles in Albania...but not castros but kėshtjellės or kala....  |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:16
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tired of answering to the same questions again and again...
But just to make you glad I didnt react (sic!!!) I am going to reply to some of your questions.
-Iot, -At, -It are used also in albanian, probably deriving from the greek suffixes.
Emathia is not the macedonian Emathia, but is the today region of Mati in Northern Albania. Its is there that Gjergj Kastrioti reigned. And the name is purely albanian E Mathia, in standard albanian E Madhia means The Great or The Big (It is a valley).
Gjergj (George) Kastrioti (Castriota) was albanian, and spoke albanian. In fact the first albanian phrase (writen) was the baptism formula of the archbishop of Durres (Durazzo, Dyrrachium). His name was Pal Engjelli, in latin Paulus Angelus. He was also one of the ministers of Scanderbeg. Marin Barleci (Marinus Barletius) one of the contemporane historians wrote more on Scanderbeg's life. Gjergj Kastrioti was the son of the albanian nobleman Gjon (John, not Yiannis). They were albanian gheg catholics, not orthodoxes. Read the Istoria de Vitae et Gestis of Marin Barletius and you will learn more.
Just to make a frank question, it comes natural after your question, did you ever read a history on Scanderbeg's life??? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:28
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something else, most of the albanian nobility together with the Castrioti family, after the turkish occupation fleed in Italy. Their descendants still live in southern italy and in Sicily, preserving their language, and their names. The names are very similar to the greeks, that is because of byzanthine influence in early times, but they speek albanian, and never spoke greek.
http://www.arbereshe.it - www.arbereshe.it
http://www.basilicata.cc/artistilucani/arbereshe/ - www.basilicata.cc/artistilucani/arbereshe/
http://www.arbitalia.it - www.arbitalia.it
http://www.epinions.com/musc_mu-313784 - www.epinions.com/musc_mu-313784
http://www.martylloyd.com/artist_a/arbereshe_di_lungro_lyrics.html - www.martylloyd.com/artist_a/
http://www.guzzardi.it/arberia/comunita/comunita_arbereshe.htm - www.guzzardi.it/arberia/comunita/comunita_arbereshe.htm
http://www.greci.org/ - www.greci.org/
http://www.terredelmediterraneo.org/itinerari/s_costantino.htm - www.terredelmediterraneo.org/itinerari/s_costantino.htm ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:57
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My friend,from my first posts I cleared that I'm not trying to claim Kastriotis as a Greek.I've made some questions on the issue but I still haven't got a convincing answer. By the fact he wrote his letters and seal in greek language and alphabet shows that he knew greek too. Its seems weird to me that"Emathia" from his seal not to be connected with the greek region Emathia and connected with Mat.I see that this is your "official" view on that issue. Musachi in his memoirs claim that his family original surname was Molossachi and derived from his Molossian ancestry : http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH11.html Also I think that Kastriotis would feel betrayed by Albanians(majority) after their history during the Ottomans' domain,those who Kastriotis fought with pation and bravery... You didn't comment the seal.. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 08:29
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My friend,from my first posts I cleared that I'm not trying to claim Kastriotis as a Greek.I've made some questions on the issue but I still haven't got a convincing answer. Ok, this sounds reasonable
By the fact he wrote his letters and seal in greek language and alphabet shows that he knew greek too. His seals were in latin and greek, and his scribes and ministers wrote the documents in both languages. Both the languages were considered noble diplomatic and culture languages, and I believe they still are. You didnt expect him to write in english, did you? From the historic data we know that Scanderbeg knew Greek, Latin and Ottoman, as he was a well educated nobleman of his times.
Its seems weird to me that"Emathia" from his seal not to be connected with the greek region Emathia and connected with Mat.I see that this is your "official" view on that issue. I dont know any greek Emathia, I know that there was an ancient Macedonian region with this name. Anyway, Scanderbeg was the prince of Mat, and geographically he never held any domains somewhere near the ancient macedonian Emathia. And from the catholic church documents we know about the albanian Emathia Valley, todays Mat Valley.
Musachi in his memoirs claim that his family original surname was Molossachi and derived from his Molossian ancestry : http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH11.html - http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts/AH11.html That is perfectly true they claimed this, their family still has descendants alive, living in Italy, and some even in albania. And they also referred to themselves as albanians (as well as epirotans) even in mediaeval times.
Of course that you have to understand, the medieval noble families were linked to eachother by many marriages, for example the mother of Gjergj Kastrioti, Vojsava, was slavic, while the Mussachi had different links with greek-byzanthine, and also frankish noble families. But they refferred to themselves as albanians, the same way as the Queen of England refferres to Herself as English, or the Savoias feel Italian, or Juan Carlos feels Spanish.
Also I think that Kastriotis would feel betrayed by Albanians(majority) after their history during the Ottomans' domain,those who Kastriotis fought with pation and bravery...
Why would they. The albanians always rebelled to the ottoman empire, and fought eagerly. Of course that with the passing of the years they had to enter the system, but still many albanians fought the ottomans until the indipendence. You have to know that greek, or slavic was allowed to be teached in schools, while albanian never was allowed, because it was considered an evil language of rebel people.
You didn't comment the seal.. Well its a beautiful medieval seal, I have seen it so many times, original and copies. What do you want me to comment? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 12:14
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I dont know any greek Emathia, I know that there was an ancient
Macedonian region with this name. Anyway, Scanderbeg was the prince of
Mat, and geographically he never held any domains somewhere near the
ancient macedonian Emathia. And from the catholic church documents we
know about the albanian Emathia Valley, todays Mat Valley. You don't know any Greek Emathia??You must be joking...Was it slavomacedonian?? I'm suprised how easily you make Emathia Mat. I know that its the only way to explain that and some "ethnic" opinions are law for you... Which are these documents reffering to an Emathia?(and isn't your theory about that toponyme something like E madhe)? Don't you find more logical when it writes Emathia it means the Emathia and not Mat? That is perfectly true they claimed this, their family still has descendants alive, living in Italy, and some even in albania. And they also referred to themselves as albanians (as well as epirotans) even in mediaeval times. And that's what I believe,that these families (Kastriotis,Arianitis,Mousachis) had deep Greek-byzantine noble origins positioned in Albania to rule as sebastocratores parts of the country.And of course by the ages and through intermarriages with local tribelords' families identificated as Albanians like the Kings you mentioned. To have such greek surnames (no christian greek nor byzantine titles like duka) which show a geographic origin from a greek placename and with a greek suffix seems weird to a simple tribelord to have it. Arianitis surname is present in Thessalonica from 1002 carried by David Arianitis who was placed commander of the city by Basilius the Second who was also in the right wing of Basilios' army in the battle of Pelagonia in 1017.Also in a record of a census (silligiodes gramma) of the high ranked states official and census-taker and domestikos of themes Konstantinos Makrinos compiled in 1338, during the census of plows of Komanitzes,of Makrochorion and Paradeisos,which are located in the valley below Veroia, we read that these are bordering with Arianitis holdings,and also there is reference in a Arianitis village. The fact that Arianitis surname isn't frequent families with the name Arianitis must be connected in someway. You have to know that greek, or slavic was allowed to be teached in schools, while albanian never was allowed, because it was considered an evil language of rebel people. Another albanian myth.Weren't Arnauts(muslim) regarded as Turks by the Osmanlis?? There were a lot of Albanians in high positions of the Empire,who oppressed you?You rebelled against the Turks when they didn't pay you,as it happened in 1770 in Peloponnesus. What do you want to say that Greeks had better relations with Turks than Albanians?? Today's relations between the three countries show who was the ally with whom. Well its a beautiful medieval seal, I have seen it so many times, original and copies. What do you want me to comment? Look above the photo what is written on his seal and which is the position of the Greeks and which that of Albanians... |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 00:08
It was commissioned a while back after Scanderbeg's death(probably after Marinus Barletius, since hs tarted the myth to begin with). The Scanderbeg was never a king so surely he could not hope to be an emperor. Like Musachi later, Scanderbeg's descendents wanted to maintain some kind of claim on the balkans incase something should arise.
Being married to Donica, Scanderbeg could claim some distant relation to the Byzantine dynasty of the Comnenos as Donica's grandmother was herself a dystant member of that family(hence the surname Komneni in the Arrianiti family later on, as the family neared it's death). However considering the fact that there still existed candidates for the throne deep into Scanderbeg's revolt. http://bjoerna.dk/albansk-historie/Seal-of-Scanderbeg.htm - Source As for Emathia, you only have to read Pjeter Budi's description to see where it actually lies:
http://albanianhistory.net/texts/AH17.html - Source Now what do you think is more likely? That the Kastrioti gained control of Kruja from a region abreast to it, or from one in a completely different province? ------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 10:51
|
You don't know any Greek Emathia??You must be joking...Was it slavomacedonian??
Yes dude, I do not know any greek Emathia. It was ancient macedonian, not slavomacedonian, and the relation between old macedonians and greeks is still obscure. When the science will agree on that, than I ll be happy to accept your hypothesis.
I'm suprised how easily you make Emathia Mat. I know that its the only way to explain that and some "ethnic" opinions are law for you... Patrino, it is not my fault if you dont know anything about the developing of the albanian language (as it never interested to you). Emathia is the greek pronunciation, but its inhabitants might have call it otherwise. This is proven by hundred of cases in Persia and Egypt, do you believe that Cyrus name was really Cyrus???
Emathia can become Mat same as Lissus can become Lezhe, Dyrrachium - Durres, Scutari - Shkodra, Aulona - Vlora, Scupi - Shkupi, Naissus - Nish, Ragusa - Rush etc.
Which are these documents reffering to an Emathia?(and isn't your theory about that toponyme something like E madhe)? Don't you find more logical when it writes Emathia it means the Emathia and not Mat? Fortunately, the albanian catholic priests of the Mat Valley in the XV century wrote a lot of books in albanian and in latin, and referred to the region as Emathia. Search for Frang Bardhi, Pjeter Bogdani, Gjon Buzuku etc, read their opera, and than come with your arguments regarding a region that you still dont know. And that's what I believe,that these families Kastriotis,Arianitis,Mousachis) had deep Greek-byzantine noble origins positioned in Albania to rule as sebastocratores parts of the country. Why Greek byzanthines and not Albanian byzanthines or romanian byzanthines, or vlach byzanthines or anatolian byzanthines or armenian byzanthines or slavian byzanthines. Or is it a registered trade mark???
And of course by the ages and through intermarriages with local tribelords' families identificated as Albanians like the Kings you mentioned.
To have such greek surnames (no christian greek nor byzantine titles like duka) which show a geographic origin from a greek placename and with a greek suffix seems weird to a simple tribelord to have it. Can you exlain me why many albanians would be called Mehmet, or Sami etc? Does that mean that they are turks? No my friend, but the turks influenced our culture, same as the byzanthines (who used greek as an offical language)
Arianitis surname is present in Thessalonica from 1002 carried by David Arianitis who was placed commander of the city by Basilius the Second who was also in the right wing of Basilios' army in the battle of Pelagonia in 1017.Also in a record of a census (silligiodes gramma) of the high ranked states official and census-taker and domestikos of themes Konstantinos Makrinos compiled in 1338, during the census of plows of Komanitzes,of Makrochorion and Paradeisos,which are located in the valley below Veroia, we read that these are bordering with Arianitis holdings,and also there is reference in a Arianitis village. Thessalonica has never been a homogeneous city, there always lived greeks, albanians, slavians and vallachians, not to mention jews etc.
The fact that Arianitis surname isn't frequent families with the name Arianitis must be connected in someway. Now this is very naive
Another albanian myth.Weren't Arnauts(muslim) regarded as Turks by the Osmanlis?? Yes the albanian muslims were always regarded as turks, while the cristians as greeks, and nobody allowed them to learn their language. Thats why they had to fight and die for it
There were a lot of Albanians in high positions of the Empire,who oppressed you?You rebelled against the Turks when they didn't pay you,as it happened in 1770 in Peloponnesus.
You dont know nothing about albanian rebellions. And there were also greek, serbian, bulgarian, armenian or italian officers in the empire, the only problem was that the greeks consideed themselves romaioi, they didnt know what they were.
A master of geopolitics and history, arent you???
Look above the photo what is written on his seal and which is the position of the Greeks and which that of Albanians...
I dont see no greeks, but Romaioi, which means cristian orthodox byzanthines, or cristian orthodox romans. And Scanderbeg never was an emperor, and never called himself a king, he was just a prince.
------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:29
|
Yes dude, I do not know any greek Emathia My alvane friend leave that *** for albforumi and scopian propagandistic forum... Patrino, it is not my fault if you dont know anything about the developing of the albanian language (as it never interested to you). First If you want to speak good greek it isn't Patrino it is Patrinos and Patrine when you adress to me... Why should I'm interested in albanian??Its an undeveloped language. Emathia can become Mat same as Lissus can become Lezhe Note that we are talking about an era not away from us,and the "Emathia" to become "Mat" takes lot of time.... Why Greek byzanthines and not Albanian byzanthines or romanian byzanthines, or vlach byzanthines or anatolian byzanthines or armenian byzanthines or slavian byzanthines. Or is it a registered trade mark??? Greek byzantines because they have greek surnames which show origin of a greek place added with a greek suffix. Can you exlain me why many albanians would be called Mehmet, or Sami etc? Does that mean that they are turks? No my friend, but the turks influenced our culture, same as the byzanthines (who used greek as an offical language) Again... I haven't said about his greek but christian name Georgios but for their surnames which I can't accept that they were given to some mountainers, isolated,with no much byzantine control tribesmen of the north high mountains of Albania.... Thessalonica has never been a homogeneous city, there always lived greeks, albanians, slavians and vallachians, not to mention jews etc. What a nice classic albanian argument... In 1000 Thessalonica was a greek-inhabited city. Albanians haven't appeared in history yet. Slavians??? Do you think that the emperor would place a slav/bulgar in Thessalonica??? How would he get in Saint Demetrius church???(I suppose you know what I mean,about Saint Demetrius and Slavs....).Vlachs who mentioned that period were nomadic sheepherds away fro Thessalonica. And Jews came much later(end of 15th century) invited by the Turks. Now this is very naive There aren't many Aria placenames..... Yes the albanian muslims were always regarded as turks At last an arnaout who admits it  while the cristians as greeks Again Papagiannis?????  and nobody allowed them to learn their language Who didn't allow to you??? Choose:
 hats why they had to fight and die for it And why did you fight us???? Many para,e????? he only problem was that the greeks consideed themselves romaioi, they didnt know what they were. I consider my self Romaio/Romio, don't I know what I am???? Where have you read that???? I dont see no greeks, but Romaioi, which means cristian orthodox byzanthines, or cristian orthodox romans. Thats what you understand? it says Albanians,Bulgarians and Romaioi. Who are not albanians or bulgarians leave in this area and identify as Romaioi???Of course Greeks.... And Scanderbeg never was an emperor, and never called himself a king, he was just a prince. What ever you don't like is fake??????? |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 13:49
This is the value of this language. Is genuine, not modified. Anyway, you should not have such a disregard for non-Greek thinks as long as the Greek culture is not the creation of only one people but of several hellenized people, including Albanians. -------------  |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 16:25
|
Menumorut you don't have anything to do and make a tour to greek-related threads and post bs??? Let me and Arber to have a disagreement in the issues we are talking about. Can you explain your thesis about hellenisation of different people with arguments(if you know this word). And of course the scale of hellenasation. In another thread you wrote that we are slavs who hellenised and gained dark hair,skin and eyes,do you still believe it??? Did the hellenisation process included solarium,hair painting and brown contact lens.Note that from the ancient times there was a percentage of "light" Greeks but as today a small one. |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 18:08
It seems whatever you don't like you ignore. I showed you the very source, yet you have not made a single comment. The same for Mat. You have the earlier account of Annonimous description of Europe describing Emathia as the mat in Albania, and Pjeter Budi, who was a native of that region. Calling it Scanderbeg's Country/County. On top of it all, we have explained how -Iot and -It suffix are both common in the Albanian language, just like the Turkish -luk. What it seems to me is that you overplay your arguement while at the sametime ignore that of others, you put more significance on what you say then on what others say, dimissing it without even properly bringing evidence against it, worse then all, you simply deny it... ------------- |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 09:05
|
It seems whatever you don't like you ignore
The toponyms in your sourse are clearly latinised:the Ersenta (Erzen), the Mathia (Mat), the Scumpino (Shkumbin) and the Epasa (Osum) to fit into the latin writing and rules. Can you give me some examples of -iot suffixes except the Greek-related(suliot,himariot etc) ones in albanian espesially in the north ,I mean real not from your grammatical imagination... Give some clues about the byzantine-greek influence of the north albanian tribes,is there such influence to change the structure of the language(in this occasion the suffix of the surname)???? You've said that he could be from a toponym Kastrat(which has no meaning in albanian,as you know castle in albanian is kala or kėshtjellė). But why haven't he called Kastratioti?????,isn't the "Kastri-o" version more logical???? |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 13:44
These are pure dreams. Where did disapeared all the peoples who invaded Balkans and Minor Asia, or the originary populations of Minor Asia? ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 14:43
|
Take your pick. Close the topic or let it stay open?
I'll let it stay open under the condition that I don't have to visit here again in order to remind you all of the Codes of Conduct. ------------- |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 16:00
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Personally, you can close it Seko. The topic was just about the archeological finding, not the ethnicity of historical figures. ------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 19:25
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Somebody who dares to label a language as undeveloped, and always expresses racist views on every nation, like the Patrino does, is a shame for himself, and for his country (I would say even for the Balkans). Anyway, cum principia negante non est disputandum! The honourable AE member doesnt have a clue on history rather than nationalistic propaganda, and I consider him ignorant therefore. Seko, I do not believe that closing the topic is the propper measure for some who have a long CV full of offences and non-relevant posts, offending others with megalomanic egocentrism (just to use some greek words). This kind of members should be banned, as they are a barrier on free, cultivated discussions. Anyway, it is not on me to decide. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Patrinos
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 07:58
|
Arber,First I feel insaulted when you say about greek opression on Albanians by the Church mainly and your theories about good greek-turkish relation and bad turk-albanian(turkalbanian) relations during the Ottoman times. We as Greeks managed to maintain our religion a sign to see how "good" "friends" and "allies" we were with the Turks.But in the other hand we have an oppressed albanian nation but I don't understand from who????? I don't care if you justify your selves by claiming that the Albanians' slaughterings in Greece were just Turks' fault who didn't pay good their mercenaries. This is a nationalistic,blind propagandist view with a big dose of ignorance or voluntarily not acceptance of your mistakes and crimes as a nation. You said about shame. Those who have to be ashamed are those who maintain the Balkans' bad situation with imperialistic policy and ideology,something that "suits" in another era about a century back. From when the language has to do anything with race??? If I criticize a language's,albanian now, level do you understand that I refer to the albanian "race"???? Make a search in my posts to find a racist claim,I mean a claim that shows that I classify races as superior and inferior,to distinguish physical characteristics of a group of people isn't racist if we don't claim superiority. If I didn't have a clue in history why did you answered to my posts.If you thought that my arguments were only nationalistic nonsenses you had to mention it from the beginning not answering with your (non-convincing for me) answers. I didn't started the discussion by saying :" Kastriotis, Arianitis are Greeks" . I've written what make me believe that their families had Greek-Byzantine origins and you answered with your arguments trying to maintain the albanian historic "myths" and idols. You are the one who started with totally nonsenses about Kolokotronis about being "albanian" considering that he wasn't even an Arvanite.... Which were your scientific historic arguments then??? What could you answer to Kolokotronis's writings by him???? You've just disappeared from that topic,without admit your serious mistake which is surely derived from albanian nationalistic propagandist "hoxhist" website.Are these your sources?? If you think that in this thread my posts were so relevant you shouldn't answer,because you got too out of topic(according to you).You think that my replies are full of magalomanic egocentrism because maybe you and your compatriots have in big extent a inferiority complex against Greeks,just because you come here(in Greece) and work and not the opposite.This opinion isn't a result only from you internet-guys but from your compatriots who live,work,be educated in Greece.The total lack of gratefulness is a hit on the back of the Greeks in our filotimo(i can't translate it in english because there isn't such word in english but i suppose you understand), in a nation which has just ended to migrate outside and suddenly had hundreds of thousands of Albanians in a very small period in our borders. Don't try to be the "victim",the "oppressed" in the history because you will be surprised when you make a search in real hstory and not in Hoxha's history books' and simiral thinking websites. |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:41
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Seko already urged participants to restrain themselves or it will be closed but as we all witness from the last two posts, the thread has degenerated into mud throwing between members. Thread closed. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |