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The Livonian War( 1558-1583)

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Livonian War( 1558-1583)
    Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 07:19

what do the members of AE know about the Livonian War?

what is the importance of the conclusion of this war in your opinion?

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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 07:28
The biggest loser of this war was Russia. After the war in Russia "Times of Troubles" has begun. Russia became very weak for next 60 years. Russia didn't manage to get access to Baltic sea. The war postponed Moscow power increase for many years.
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 07:33

Didn't he tme of troubles in Russia begin with the death of Tsar Boris Gudunov in early 1600s whereas this war was concluded in 1583?

 

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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 08:24
So, as I live in Latvia , i know something about it,  as it was war for  modern Latvia and Estonia territory.
In short, there were 5 fighting parts: Order of Livonia, Russia, Polland-&Lituania,Sweden and Denmark.
The war begun with conflict between Russia (that needed in way to the Baltic Sea) and Order of Livonia (that wanted to survive in new world realities). The war ended with Order of Livonia territoried allocation mostly between Poland&Lituania and Sweden. For Russia this war wasn't the luckiest, but everything could be worse ...
More information, of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_war
 
IMHO, conclusions that we can made:
1. This war was terrible for local inhabatians. A lot of Latvian & Estonian  people were killed in war for their lands between powerfull contries.
2. Non-state unions (like Orders) showed that they could not exist between/parllel strong states.
3. Timely made political dessisions have a very good afford. Polish-Lithuanian union in 1569 - Rechpospolita. As one of it's result - the biggest part of Order of Livonia territories.
4. It is not good idea to have war in a lot of dirrections at one time. Russia had some more war conflicts at that time (Crymian war with Crimian Hun and Turkish campaign to Astrahan). At the end of Livonian war Russia lost practically alt that it had got at the beginnig.
5. Good diplomacy always is very usefull Wink In this war there were a lot of examles: rejecting peace (from Lithuania)   by Ivan Grozny (bad dessision for Russia, it could be better to accept it), Treaty of Jam Zapolski (good dessision for Rechpospolita and Russia both to stop boody war at that moment), Treaty of Plussa (Sweden had participated in less war campaign then Poland-Lithuania and Russia, but got a lot of territories).


Edited by John Lenon - 21-Aug-2006 at 08:28
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 09:11
Do not cite Wikipedia as a source for this war. That is terrible at Wikipedia, believe me.
 
I can write you a short conclusion, theDiplomat, if you give me some time but here are the outlines (but they may be a little mistaked as this is taken from my head):
 
When war broke out in 1558, Russians intruded into Estonia fighting successfully against the Livonian Order. The Bishopric of Tartu begun the war by refusing to pay the Russians their ancient tax of some value (can't remember). The Russian tzar then however tried to invade Tartu, Livonian Order and the Bishopric of Saare-Lne helped Tartu out. Later on, when the Bishoprics had called their beneficiares (Poland and Sweden and Denmark) into the game the war became much more serious. The Livonian Order fought some grand battles but was decisively defeated at Oomuli or Hrjame in 1560/61. After that the Grand Master Gotthard K****** signed a treaty with Poland and so the Order submitted. Sweden had intruded the northern territories and the war became a three-sided Polish-Swedish-Russian conflict.
 
Then the war was waged (I know less about it) and in 1580's the Russians first signed treaty with Poland at Jam Zapolski and then with Sweden at Pljussa.
 
BTW: the 200th topic in the EMatIA Forum.


Edited by rider - 21-Aug-2006 at 09:12
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 09:21
Originally posted by John Lenon

So, as I live in Latvia , i know something about it,  as it was war for  modern Latvia and Estonia territory.
In short, there were 5 fighting parts: Order of Livonia, Russia, Polland-&Lituania,Sweden and Denmark.
The war begun with conflict between Russia (that needed in way to the Baltic Sea) and Order of Livonia (that wanted to survive in new world realities). The war ended with Order of Livonia territoried allocation mostly between Poland&Lituania and Sweden. For Russia this war wasn't the luckiest, but everything could be worse ...
More information, of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_war
 
IMHO, conclusions that we can made:
1. This war was terrible for local inhabatians. A lot of Latvian & Estonian  people were killed in war for their lands between powerfull contries.
2. Non-state unions (like Orders) showed that they could not exist between/parllel strong states.
3. Timely made political dessisions have a very good afford. Polish-Lithuanian union in 1569 - Rechpospolita. As one of it's result - the biggest part of Order of Livonia territories.
4. It is not good idea to have war in a lot of dirrections at one time. Russia had some more war conflicts at that time (Crymian war with Crimian Hun and Turkish campaign to Astrahan). At the end of Livonian war Russia lost practically alt that it had got at the beginnig.
5. Good diplomacy always is very usefull Wink In this war there were a lot of examles: rejecting peace (from Lithuania)   by Ivan Grozny (bad dessision for Russia, it could be better to accept it), Treaty of Jam Zapolski (good dessision for Rechpospolita and Russia both to stop boody war at that moment), Treaty of Plussa (Sweden had participated in less war campaign then Poland-Lithuania and Russia, but got a lot of territories).
 
Thanx bro
 
Next semestr I will study in Valmiera,Latvia through Erasmus exchange program,so I wm very into Latvian history nowadays.Smile
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 09:25
Originally posted by rider

Do not cite Wikipedia as a source for this war. That is terrible at Wikipedia, believe me.
 
I can write you a short conclusion, theDiplomat, if you give me some time but here are the outlines (but they may be a little mistaked as this is taken from my head):
 
When war broke out in 1558, Russians intruded into Estonia fighting successfully against the Livonian Order. The Bishopric of Tartu begun the war by refusing to pay the Russians their ancient tax of some value (can't remember). The Russian tzar then however tried to invade Tartu, Livonian Order and the Bishopric of Saare-Lne helped Tartu out. Later on, when the Bishoprics had called their beneficiares (Poland and Sweden and Denmark) into the game the war became much more serious. The Livonian Order fought some grand battles but was decisively defeated at Oomuli or Hrjame in 1560/61. After that the Grand Master Gotthard K****** signed a treaty with Poland and so the Order submitted. Sweden had intruded the northern territories and the war became a three-sided Polish-Swedish-Russian conflict.
 
Then the war was waged (I know less about it) and in 1580's the Russians first signed treaty with Poland at Jam Zapolski and then with Sweden at Pljussa.
 
BTW: the 200th topic in the EMatIA Forum.
 
thanx my estonian friend
 
I will be looking forward to reading your deeper posts on this topic:)
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 12:04
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

Didn't he tme of troubles in Russia begin with the death of Tsar Boris Gudunov in early 1600s whereas this war was concluded in 1583?

 
Theoreticly yes, but just after Ivan IV Scary's death Russia completely lost its international position. It's just increased around 1600.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by rider

Do not cite Wikipedia as a source for this war. That is terrible at Wikipedia, believe me.
 
I can write you a short conclusion, theDiplomat, if you give me some time but here are the outlines (but they may be a little mistaked as this is taken from my head):
 
When war broke out in 1558, Russians intruded into Estonia fighting successfully against the Livonian Order. The Bishopric of Tartu begun the war by refusing to pay the Russians their ancient tax of some value (can't remember). The Russian tzar then however tried to invade Tartu, Livonian Order and the Bishopric of Saare-Lne helped Tartu out. Later on, when the Bishoprics had called their beneficiares (Poland and Sweden and Denmark) into the game the war became much more serious. The Livonian Order fought some grand battles but was decisively defeated at Oomuli or Hrjame in 1560/61. After that the Grand Master Gotthard K****** signed a treaty with Poland and so the Order submitted. Sweden had intruded the northern territories and the war became a three-sided Polish-Swedish-Russian conflict.
 
Then the war was waged (I know less about it) and in 1580's the Russians first signed treaty with Poland at Jam Zapolski and then with Sweden at Pljussa.
 
BTW: the 200th topic in the EMatIA Forum.
 
I can only add that in the War between Poland-Lithuania and Russia 1579-1582 Polish-Lithuanian king Stefan Bathory lead 3 victorious, devastating for Russia campains. In the last campain Polish -Lithuanian sourunded Pskow ( a city north from Moscow ) for a whole year. Despite having great numerical superiority Russians didn't decide to give a battle and accepted favourable peace to Poland-Lithuania. 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 13:42
I thought that Pskov (the English form) was never taken. Was it? It was most certainly an impressive fortress with many towers and a good place to hold invaders at. You can't say that Pskov (known in Estonia as Pihkva) is north of Moscow. It is much further west than Moscow and is situated at Lake Pskov which is right below Lake Peipsi (or Peipus) for those who know about geography. In one of the articles in this Mag, Pskov will be shortly featured (most probably, my sincere apologies if it isn't). Pskov also was a part of the Feudal Republic of Novgorod during the 13th and later centuries until Novgorod fell to the Kniaz of Moscow. I do not know if Pskov fell before Novgorod however.
 
Now to become more precise theDiplomat:
 
As I said before, Livonia was controlled by the Livonian Order, the Bishopric of Saare-Lne, the Bishopric of Tartu and the Archbishopric of Riga. The Bishopric of Tartu had paid a tax of some kind to Novgorod earlier, I believe it was that Tartu's traders could trade there. When Moscow took Novgorod the tax was disrupted. Ivan IV, realizing a potential way to ice-free seas at Livonia, demanded the tax from the Bishop. The Bishop refused and so the armies of the tzar intruded into Livonia in the January of 1558. The tzar called those troops back.
 
The Russians intruded and held a Battle at Rakvere, where they were defeated. The Danes came and intruded Saaremaa and other Western Livonian areas. They also proposed a half-year peace what was made in the April of 1559. Later on, the Swedish armies came and Tallinn surrendered to them, renouncing all relations to the Order. The Order was left with south estonian territories only.
 
On the 2 August of 1560, the Livonian Order was defeated decisively at Oomuli or Hrjame. The Grand-Master barely ran from the site of the battle. Then a peasants rebellion was started at the new Swedish territories but it was quickly destroyed.
 
In the March of 1562, the Archbishop and Grand Master signed surrender to Sigismund II August. The Grand Master was Gotthard Kettler, and he was made the Duke of Courland. The Danes had invaded Courland earlier but they had been repelled.
 
From 1563 to 1570, the northern Seven Years' War was held between Denmark and Sweden about different territories in Livonia. After this, in 1573 Saaremaa was given to Denmark. The Danish kings' brother however managed to create a Kingdom of Livonia, in Central Estonia with it's capital at Pltsamaa. The King was Duke Magnus. The Kingdom lasted for seven years (1570-1577)
 
In 1582, after extensive warfare, Poland and Moscow proposed peace at Jam Zapolski. In 1583, Sweden and Moscow made peace at Pljussa.
 
 
The events are picted in the Chronicle of the province of Livonia (or however it is called in English) by Balthasar Russow. Russow, however was biased so his views may not be completely true.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 13:49

Question to John Lenon: can you tell me what do people in Latvia know about this war? Is it important part of your history?

And other question - for many years part of to-day Latvia was Courland. What is an impact of this fact for Latvia and its modern population?

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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 15:24
Originally posted by rider

I thought that Pskov (the English form) was never taken. Was it? It was most certainly an impressive fortress with many towers and a good place to hold invaders at. You can't say that Pskov (known in Estonia as Pihkva) is north of Moscow. It is much further west than Moscow and is situated at Lake Pskov which is right below Lake Peipsi (or Peipus) for those who know about geography. In one of the articles in this Mag, Pskov will be shortly featured (most probably, my sincere apologies if it isn't). Pskov also was a part of the Feudal Republic of Novgorod during the 13th and later centuries until Novgorod fell to the Kniaz of Moscow. I do not know if Pskov fell before Novgorod however.
 
 
Rider, I didn't say Pskow was taken. It was surounded for a year by 40.000 Polish-Lithuanian army. Considering that Pskov had about 50.000 defenders it was hardly possible to take it. Also Ivan the Scary was standing somewher near Novogrod with his army which was around 100.000 soldiers. Polish-Lithuanian army was decreasing because of the cold and disease but they hold through the whole year and Russians didn't decide to give a battle instead asking for peace. You are right I should say it's northern-west from Moscow near Finland and Estonia's border.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 16:10
It is definetly not near Finland. Latvia it is, and Estonia. And I didn't either say it was taken, I just asked.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 18:39
Ivan the terrible, not the scary ...
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 04:07
To ataman:
What in Latvia know about Livonian war ? I think a lot of things. Because we (modern latvia) were not one of a fighting sides and could discover this war without any "preferences".  IMHO, it is senseless to speak about brutality of this war , etc. All such wars make a great impact to the local inhabatian/lands future developement & it is impossible to turn something back. In Latvia there are a lot of legends,stories,buildings has an impact of Livonian war. For example, the story of town Valmiera (where our friend TheDiplomat will be in next semestr Wink); In 1560 Russin army destroied everything around the Valmiera city, but did not got it. In 1563 demolished Valmiera had joined to Cesu bishop, that was owned by Polland. During&because the Livonian war Valmera became from Hanza Union city to a small village. The city got  its' positions back only at the end of XVII century. The same stories it is possible to tell about a lot of cities in Latvia and Estonia.
 
 


Edited by John Lenon - 22-Aug-2006 at 04:10
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 04:09
To ataman 2:
 
What about Courland ? I think you mean the Duchy of Courland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurland). Of course, this is famous part of Latvian history. I could say the first "almost independent" state in modern Latvia territory. The most greatest influence to modern Latvia (or most known times) had the times of duke Jacob Kettlet and times under Russiam Empire:
 
1. Under the duke, Jacob Kettler, the Duchy reached the peak of its prosperity. Trading relations developed not only with nearby countries, but also with Britain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, etc. Jacob established the merchant fleet of the Duchy of Courland, with its main harbours in Ventspils and Liepaja. In 1651 the Duchy gained its first colony in Africa, St. Andrews Island at the Gambia River and established Jacob Fort there. Soon afterwards, in 1652, Courlanders established another colony, in Tobago in the West Indies. However, during this time, the Duchy of Courland remained an object of interest for both Sweden and Poland. In 1655 the Swedish army entered the territory of the Duchy and the SwedishPolish war (1655 1660) had begun. So, the Duchy was the cause of war.
2. As a result of the Great Northern War, Russia controlled the central part of Latvia starting in 1710.
An Empress of Russia Anna Ioanovna was merried Friedrich Wilhelm Kettler the Duke of Courland(before Russian throne). At this time Courland became a very usefull teritory for Russia. Courland history was very relevant with Anna Ionavna favorite Ernst Johann von Biron, who later became the Duke of Courland. At this time a lot of beautiful palaces had been built, etc.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 06:28
John Lenon, thank you for your answers.
 
I have also other question. If I got right Estonians who write in AE forum, an average Estonian thinks that the period when territory of Estonia was under Swedish reign, was the golden age for Estonia. I don't want to disccuss if this period was or wasn't a golden age in reality. My interest is what average people in Estonia and Latvia think about their history.
 
Ok, so the question is - what do average Latvians think about Swedish, Polish and Russian reigns in Latvia / Latvian history?


Edited by ataman - 22-Aug-2006 at 06:30
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  Quote John Lenon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 08:32
Originally posted by ataman

Ok, so the question is - what do average Latvians think about Swedish, Polish and Russian reigns in Latvia / Latvian history?
 
So it is difficult question for Latvia , because of some political situation in past Stern Smile Today I think the medium Latvian could say that the worse was Russia, the best was Sweden.  There is such old latvian phrase "lucky Swedish times".   But if we look in history dipper we could say that every reign could be remmembered as bad and with something good.
 
1. Polish times were good for big cities & noblemans. This times could be remembered with Catholization (a lot of people before were lutherans or ortodox), peasants became serfs.
2. Swedish time were good for big cities & common people. In Sweden there were not serfdom like early in Poland and later in Russia. First non-german school had been opened.  But from the other side "germanization" of latvian population begun, and of course Swedish times were unlucky for the Dutch of Courland. It was robbered ...
3. Russian times (before 1918) were good for noblemans & culture. Times could be remembered with returning of serfdom, "black death" epidemy, russification&orthodoxation, education of Latvian intellectuals, industrialization  and rise of Latvians self-assurance as Nation.
 
IMHO, from the point of common man (not noble or priest,etc Cool) in
descending order:
1. Swedish times. 2. Russian times 3. Polish times.
 
But again it is not correct, because of long time period from XVI till XX century ...


Edited by John Lenon - 22-Aug-2006 at 08:49
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 09:08
Originally posted by Ataman

I got right Estonians who write in AE forum
Yep, two persons and one inactive person.
 
Originally posted by Ataman

an average Estonian thinks that the period when territory of Estonia was under Swedish reign, was the golden age for Estonia
 
You have got it practically wrong from the side of most Estonians, but I must explain for you are right too:
 
An average person thinks that the rule of the Swedes was better than the Order and the Russians but the Golden Age is the First Republic, although this is what I think would be correct.
 
Originally posted by Ataman

My interest is what average people in Estonia and Latvia think about their history
 
First of all, in the beginning (around 11th centuries) most of the Estonian peoples practiced raids on neighbouring countries (Novgorod, Pskov, Swedes, Finns, Livonians, Semgals). It changed when the today's Northern Latvia was taken by German Crusaders. The people were mostly unsatisfied with the Germans as they enslaved the population and brought in foreign languages and cultures. There were many uprises and in the Harju Rebellion of 1353-1355, most of the Estonian population was slaughtered (the Grand Master of the Livonian Order even supposedly said: "Kill the men, wives and children in cradles!"). he losses are estimated around 50,000 dead or more (the total population of Estonian territories was around 130,000).
 
The Germans so ruled mostly by fear. During the Grand Master von Plettenberg, the people were given some freedoms but mostly their situation remained the same. In 50 years, the rulers were changed with Danes and Swedes and Poles. The Danes, as they had done during their rule of Northern Estonia (1238-1353) ruled carefully and mostly the population was pleased. The Poles did nothing new and were replaced with Swedes really quickly. The Swedes however begun the first enlightenment of peasants, such as schools, the first university in Balticum (Tartu, 1632), books and other such things. So we might say the Swedish rule was the best. In the end however the Russians took over and they quickly granted us many many new taxes, replaced languages, closed the University of Tartu (in 1804 I think, it was reopened). They though let many other German and Swedish influences continue. Then when the Russianization (don't know the English word, rough translation) begun, all former German and Swedish influences were destroyed, everything became Russian. With the First Republic it changed and we again became a somewhat German civilization. Then the USSR but their crimes go beyond any borders.
 
So I would say that eventually you are correct:
1. First Republic
2. Sweden
3. Denmark
4. Poland
5. Livonian Order
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 09:09
my next question - this time for Estonians and Latvians.
 
Do you feel any relationship to each other? What do modern Latvians (Estoinans) think about Estonians (Latvians)?
 
I'd like to stress that my questions are still related to the Livonian war :)
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