In short, there were 5 fighting parts: Order of Livonia, Russia, Polland-&Lituania,Sweden and Denmark.

The war begun with conflict between Russia (that needed in way to the Baltic Sea) and Order of Livonia (that wanted to survive in new world realities). The war ended with Order of Livonia territoried allocation mostly between Poland&Lituania and Sweden. For Russia this war wasn't the luckiest, but everything could be worse ...

More information, of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_war - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_war

 

IMHO, conclusions that we can made:

1. This war was terrible for local inhabatians. A lot of Latvian & Estonian  people were killed in war for their lands between powerfull contries.

2. Non-state unions (like Orders) showed that they could not exist between/parllel strong states.

3. Timely made political dessisions have a very good afford. Polish-Lithuanian union in 1569 - Rechpospolita. As one of it's result - the biggest part of Order of Livonia territories.

4. It is not good idea to have war in a lot of dirrections at one time. Russia had some more war conflicts at that time (Crymian war with Crimian Hun and Turkish campaign to Astrahan). At the end of Livonian war Russia lost practically alt that it had got at the beginnig.

5. Good diplomacy always is very usefull  In this war there were a lot of examles: rejecting peace (from Lithuania)   by Ivan Grozny (bad dessision for Russia, it could be better to accept it), Treaty of Jam Zapolski (good dessision for Rechpospolita and Russia both to stop boody war at that moment), Treaty of Plussa (Sweden had participated in less war campaign then Poland-Lithuania and Russia, but got a lot of territories).

 

I can write you a short conclusion, theDiplomat, if you give me some time but here are the outlines (but they may be a little mistaked as this is taken from my head):

 

When war broke out in 1558, Russians intruded into Estonia fighting successfully against the Livonian Order. The Bishopric of Tartu begun the war by refusing to pay the Russians their ancient tax of some value (can't remember). The Russian tzar then however tried to invade Tartu, Livonian Order and the Bishopric of Saare-Lääne helped Tartu out. Later on, when the Bishoprics had called their beneficiares (Poland and Sweden and Denmark) into the game the war became much more serious. The Livonian Order fought some grand battles but was decisively defeated at Oomuli or Härjamäe in 1560/61. After that the Grand Master Gotthard K****** signed a treaty with Poland and so the Order submitted. Sweden had intruded the northern territories and the war became a three-sided Polish-Swedish-Russian conflict.

 

Then the war was waged (I know less about it) and in 1580's the Russians first signed treaty with Poland at Jam Zapolski and then with Sweden at Pljussa.

 

BTW: the 200th topic in the EMatIA Forum.

 

Thanx bro

 

Next semestr I will study in Valmiera,Latvia through Erasmus exchange program,so I wm very into Latvian history nowadays.

 

thanx my estonian friend

 

I will be looking forward to reading your deeper posts on this topic:)

 

Theoreticly yes, but just after Ivan IV Scary's death Russia completely lost its international position. It's just increased around 1600.

 

I can only add that in the War between Poland-Lithuania and Russia 1579-1582 Polish-Lithuanian king Stefan Bathory lead 3 victorious, devastating for Russia campains. In the last campain Polish -Lithuanian sourunded Pskow ( a city north from Moscow ) for a whole year. Despite having great numerical superiority Russians didn't decide to give a battle and accepted favourable peace to Poland-Lithuania. 

 

Now to become more precise theDiplomat:

 

As I said before, Livonia was controlled by the Livonian Order, the Bishopric of Saare-Lääne, the Bishopric of Tartu and the Archbishopric of Riga. The Bishopric of Tartu had paid a tax of some kind to Novgorod earlier, I believe it was that Tartu's traders could trade there. When Moscow took Novgorod the tax was disrupted. Ivan IV, realizing a potential way to ice-free seas at Livonia, demanded the tax from the Bishop. The Bishop refused and so the armies of the tzar intruded into Livonia in the January of 1558. The tzar called those troops back.

 

The Russians intruded and held a Battle at Rakvere, where they were defeated. The Danes came and intruded Saaremaa and other Western Livonian areas. They also proposed a half-year peace what was made in the April of 1559. Later on, the Swedish armies came and Tallinn surrendered to them, renouncing all relations to the Order. The Order was left with south estonian territories only.

 

On the 2 August of 1560, the Livonian Order was defeated decisively at Oomuli or Härjamäe. The Grand-Master barely ran from the site of the battle. Then a peasants rebellion was started at the new Swedish territories but it was quickly destroyed.

 

In the March of 1562, the Archbishop and Grand Master signed surrender to Sigismund II August. The Grand Master was Gotthard Kettler, and he was made the Duke of Courland. The Danes had invaded Courland earlier but they had been repelled.

 

From 1563 to 1570, the northern Seven Years' War was held between Denmark and Sweden about different territories in Livonia. After this, in 1573 Saaremaa was given to Denmark. The Danish kings' brother however managed to create a Kingdom of Livonia, in Central Estonia with it's capital at Põltsamaa. The King was Duke Magnus. The Kingdom lasted for seven years (1570-1577)

 

In 1582, after extensive warfare, Poland and Moscow proposed peace at Jam Zapolski. In 1583, Sweden and Moscow made peace at Pljussa.

 

 

The events are picted in the Chronicle of the province of Livonia (or however it is called in English) by Balthasar Russow. Russow, however was biased so his views may not be completely true.

 

Rider, I didn't say Pskow was taken. It was surounded for a year by 40.000 Polish-Lithuanian army. Considering that Pskov had about 50.000 defenders it was hardly possible to take it. Also Ivan the Scary was standing somewher near Novogrod with his army which was around 100.000 soldiers. Polish-Lithuanian army was decreasing because of the cold and disease but they hold through the whole year and Russians didn't decide to give a battle instead asking for peace. You are right I should say it's northern-west from Moscow near Finland and Estonia's border.

What in Latvia know about Livonian war ? I think a lot of things. Because we (modern latvia) were not one of a fighting sides and could discover this war without any "preferences".  IMHO, it is senseless to speak about brutality of this war , etc. All such wars make a great impact to the local inhabatian/lands future developement & it is impossible to turn something back. In Latvia there are a lot of legends,stories,buildings has an impact of Livonian war. For example, the story of town Valmiera (where our friend TheDiplomat will be in next semestr ); In 1560 Russin army destroied everything around the Valmiera city, but did not got it. In 1563 demolished Valmiera had joined to Cesu bishop, that was owned by Polland. During&because the Livonian war Valmera became from Hanza Union city to a small village. The city got  its' positions back only at the end of XVII century. The same stories it is possible to tell about a lot of cities in Latvia and Estonia.

 

 

 

I have also other question. If I got right Estonians who write in AE forum, an average Estonian thinks that the period when territory of Estonia was under Swedish reign, was the golden age for Estonia. I don't want to disccuss if this period was or wasn't a golden age in reality. My interest is what average people in Estonia and Latvia think about their history.

 

Ok, so the question is - what do average Latvians think about Swedish, Polish and Russian reigns in Latvia / Latvian history?

 

So it is difficult question for Latvia , because of some political situation in past  Today I think the medium Latvian could say that the worse was Russia, the best was Sweden.  There is such old latvian phrase "lucky Swedish times".   But if we look in history dipper we could say that every reign could be remmembered as bad and with something good.

 

1. Polish times were good for big cities & noblemans. This times could be remembered with Catholization (a lot of people before were lutherans or ortodox), peasants became serfs.

2. Swedish time were good for big cities & common people. In Sweden there were not serfdom like early in Poland and later in Russia. First non-german school had been opened.  But from the other side "germanization" of latvian population begun, and of course Swedish times were unlucky for the Dutch of Courland. It was robbered ...

3. Russian times (before 1918) were good for noblemans & culture. Times could be remembered with returning of serfdom, "black death" epidemy, russification&orthodoxation, education of Latvian intellectuals, industrialization  and rise of Latvians self-assurance as Nation.

 

IMHO, from the point of common man (not noble or priest,etc ) in

descending order:

1. Swedish times. 2. Russian times 3. Polish times.

 

But again it is not correct, because of long time period from XVI till XX century ...

Originally posted by Ataman I got right Estonians who write in AE forum

Yep, two persons and one inactive person.

 

Originally posted by Ataman an average Estonian thinks that the period when territory of Estonia was under Swedish reign, was the golden age for Estonia

 

You have got it practically wrong from the side of most Estonians, but I must explain for you are right too:

 

An average person thinks that the rule of the Swedes was better than the Order and the Russians but the Golden Age is the First Republic, although this is what I think would be correct.

 

Originally posted by Ataman My interest is what average people in Estonia and Latvia think about their history

 

First of all, in the beginning (around 11th centuries) most of the Estonian peoples practiced raids on neighbouring countries (Novgorod, Pskov, Swedes, Finns, Livonians, Semgals). It changed when the today's Northern Latvia was taken by German Crusaders. The people were mostly unsatisfied with the Germans as they enslaved the population and brought in foreign languages and cultures. There were many uprises and in the Harju Rebellion of 1353-1355, most of the Estonian population was slaughtered (the Grand Master of the Livonian Order even supposedly said: "Kill the men, wives and children in cradles!"). he losses are estimated around 50,000 dead or more (the total population of Estonian territories was around 130,000).

 

The Germans so ruled mostly by fear. During the Grand Master von Plettenberg, the people were given some freedoms but mostly their situation remained the same. In 50 years, the rulers were changed with Danes and Swedes and Poles. The Danes, as they had done during their rule of Northern Estonia (1238-1353) ruled carefully and mostly the population was pleased. The Poles did nothing new and were replaced with Swedes really quickly. The Swedes however begun the first enlightenment of peasants, such as schools, the first university in Balticum (Tartu, 1632), books and other such things. So we might say the Swedish rule was the best. In the end however the Russians took over and they quickly granted us many many new taxes, replaced languages, closed the University of Tartu (in 1804 I think, it was reopened). They though let many other German and Swedish influences continue. Then when the Russianization (don't know the English word, rough translation) begun, all former German and Swedish influences were destroyed, everything became Russian. With the First Republic it changed and we again became a somewhat German civilization. Then the USSR but their crimes go beyond any borders.

 

So I would say that eventually you are correct:

1. First Republic

2. Sweden

3. Denmark

4. Poland

5. Livonian Order

my next question - this time for Estonians and Latvians.

 

Do you feel any relationship to each other? What do modern Latvians (Estoinans) think about Estonians (Latvians)?

 

I'd like to stress that my questions are still related to the Livonian war :)

The Estonian Latvian relations

 

in which we could discuss it certainly much easierly. So do it, the title however should be something along that.

 

Well, I've asked in this topic, because I'd like to know one thing - for a long time, modern territory of Estonia and Latvia created one state - Livonia (or Livonian Confederation if you prefer this name :)). The Livonian war 1558-1583 virtualy destroyed this state. My question about feelings of Latvians and Estonians to each others has a deeper meaning. I'd like to know, if you (I mean average people in Latvia and Estonia) feel that this war partitioned your country? Or maybe you feel that this war has nothing to your national identity?

 

The Diplomat, if you are interested in Polish point of view, this war began the period of a dominance of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth over Moscow state (which was finished about 1 century later).

 

Latvia but the region could not be found out. The IP is very foolish. I think that you are not from Riga or other larger cities?

 

Wy foolish? Wha is that mean 'milns'?

 

Interesting opinion. It has rights to exist. Like opinion - thanx for the Order for Christian religion bringing to our land (problem is about ways of bringing )

 

I do not compare serfdom and Sunday in church  As you can see I just answered to the question about Polland, Sweden and Russian reigns. Please read comments more carefully  

 

I can repeat again: 

1. i think it is not correct to compare reigns from the history points of view because of long time period between them.

2. Every reign could be remmembered with  bad and with something good.

 

It is difficult to say what was better for Latvian inhabatian in XIII century, to became a serf or to die or to became a christian ... We can only think about it from the modern point of you ...

 

What for Order times, I could tell that it was one (and important) of various causes why Latvian or Estonian states born only in 1918 ... But again: what is more important State or personality ? 

 

 

 

May be , but may be in that case Lithaunia could be icorporated in Great Duchy of Latvia or Estonian Kingdom

 

 

Your IP is foolish because unlike others, it showed no other region except the country when I looked it up.

 

This is going very much off-topic. Start new topics, but do not talk in off-topic.

 

Oomuli wasn't definetly the only battle fought between the Order and Russians. As no formal state of the Confederacy of Livonia existed each state had to defend themselves with their own forces.

 

I was almost tempted to take that post down for foolishness and ignorance what we have written here before.

 

BTW, Russow is clearly biased towards the Germans. It is seriously doubted that the Order numbered around 1000 at Oomuli. Though, indeed there were definetly 750 heavy knights of the Order. It is also known that Russow does not mention the light infantry or sometimes infantry at all that took part of some battles.