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Was Brazil a spanish colony?

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  Quote boody4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Brazil a spanish colony?
    Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 18:18
I heard or read somewhere that Brazil was sold to Portugal by Spain? If this is true, can someone tell me the story of what happened and why they sold it?
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 18:32
 In 1500, a Portugese sailor by the name of Cabral was blown off course on the way back from India (or possibly on the way too India, i get confused), and ended up off the coast Brazil, and claimed it for Portugal.
A deal with Spain was then made that effectivly divided the whole world into two halves, one for Spain and one for Portugal. Initialy this techncly only gave the eastern fringe of South America to Portugal, but some sort of deal was made later that allowed for a larger Portugese claim.

So it was Portugese 'right from the start' or at the very least, Portugal was the first European country to claim and later rule it.

For a while, the Spanish and Portugese crowns were united, bringing Portugals empire under indirect Spainsh rule, round about this time the Dutch siezed Brazil and kept if for 30 odd years, before the Portugese kicked them out after the ill-fated union with Spain ended.

Or something like that at least.

On the Cabral thing, i think it was on the way back from India, as the winds tended to blow south along the African coast, and north further out at sea (depending on teh time of year), so typicly Portugese ships would stay close to the African coast whilst sailing too India, and on the way back, having rounded the cape, would head out into the middle of the Atlantic to catch the northerly winds.
But i could be mistaken (got it the wrong way round).


Edited by Cywr
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:43

If I'm not mistaken, the prevailing winds would be from Africa to the new world....at least that's the direction the hurricanes that form off the coast of Africa take.........

Now if someone would just pinch the wings off that demmed butterfly........

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:57
Hmm, but not everywhere, round the equator the winds die off, then there is the duldrums or whatever its called.

Anyways, this would be southern hemisphere so...
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 20:43

The doldrums are in the area just north of the equator between two belts of trade winds.   Hurricanes originate here because of the large amount of solar radiation that arrives at the earth in this area causes intense heating of the land and ocean. The doldrums are also noted for calms, periods when the winds disappear, trapping sailing vessels for days or weeks.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 21:28
Hmm, i found this:

Sailing southward past these clouds winds blew in the contrary direction, pushing ships backwards, and into the middle of the South Atlantic. (Accompanying these prevailing winds were powerful matching currents).

Rather than fight these winds, Portuguese sailors would have to sail westward almost all the way across the South Atlantic to Brazil before turning to the east, to the southern tip of Africa.


From here.

So i did infact muddle things up, Cabral would probably have discovered Brasil on the way to India, and not on the way back.

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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 21:39
Ah...okay.....now I see.
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:17
-

Edited by Jalisco Lancer
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:24
Whilst the Spanish/Portugese did appeal to the pope, i've heard a somewhat more cynical approach that suggested that the Pope was in their pockets, that the deal was already made, and the Pope's approval just a formality.
Not sure though.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 12:36

My understanding is that Pope Alexander VI (Borga) gave most of the new world to the Spanish monarchy but this was untenable politically and Portugual and Spain then cut a deal by giving Portugal any terrorities east of a certain line on the map, as was measured from West Africa where the Portugese were then active.  Brazil was not discovered at this point and they were arguing over unknowns.  Just turned out that Brazil sticks out far enough to West Africa to have made it within Portugal's ambit under the treaty.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 13:47

Starting with Cabral, most Portuguese historians agree that Cabral sailed to Bahia on purpose, because for any reason he knew that there was land there and wanted to gain fame.  He merely used currents as and excuse to sail west to the New World.  And he was on his way to India when he made it to Bahia.

And I never heard of Spain selling Brazil to Spain, but maybe its that the Portuguese king fled to Brazil when Napoleon conquered Portugal. 

 

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 15:13
Hmm, its possible, technicly Spanish sailors had passed that region of Brazil a few months before Cabral did, so maybe he figured if its in the Portugese part of the deal (Treaty of Tordesillas, which was indeed signed before Cabrals little trip, Kudos to Fielding for pointing out that little error), he could claim it. Would make sense.

Hmm, just checked the Wiki, one of the main reasons that Portugal was able to expan further into Brazil, and the Spanish claim the Philipines, was because of the difficulty in accuratly determining Longetude, it was never really enforced between the two.
Also it said that Cabral's voyage was on the way to India, and he discovered Madagascar on the same journey, eventualy arriving in India to establish the trading port at Calicut (which was his intended target apparently).
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 15:58
How much of Brazil did the Dutch Empire actually occupy? I mean, it seems more of the coastline, while the rest was not conquered by the Dutch! But go Portuguese Empire for kicking the Dutch out!

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 17:23
The Portugese only controlled the coastal areas up untill the 1800s, the interrior remained Terra Ingocnita somewhat.
The Dutch ruled the Area around Recife, which i think they made their capital, and their infulence can still be seen there, and they ruled much of the Northern Coastal area in general.
Though the Dutch had been active in Brazil as early as the late 1500s, in areas as of then not occupied by the Portugese somewhere on the mouth of the Amazon was one attempt at starting a colony, could have come a Brazilian Manhatten.
Seeing as the Dutch were at war with the Spanish fighting for their independance, and Spain had taken over Portugal, Brazil was considereed fair game.
Though really this is the WIC (West Indies Company in English), and not the Dutch state, which was kind of busy kicking the Spanish out of their country.
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  Quote mauk4678 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 11:07
In 1493 Pope Alexander IV  drew up the Papal Line of Demarcation, to settle territorial disputes. In 1494 the Portuguese demanded the line be moved 270 leagues west, and the Treaty of Tourdesillas was signed, giving the portuguese most of what is now the Brazillian coast.
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 18:33
Well Brazil was a valuable Portuguese territory, it was the only thing that actually kept Portugal in line with the other European powers, even though it was barely so.

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  Quote mauk4678 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 18:47

The portuguese were the only people to benefit from that relationship. They had just enough troops present in their colonies(10,000 total typically) to keep the cash flowing. Portuguese Brazil was most always in a veritable state of anarchy. It's a really fascinating read  about the social structure.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 19:01

Well Brazil was a valuable Portuguese territory, it was the only thing that actually kept Portugal in line with the other European powers, even though it was barely so.

The most valuable Portuguese colony.  The king even evacuated his regime into Rio when Napoleon conquered Iberian Peninsula

The portuguese were the only people to benefit from that relationship. They had just enough troops present in their colonies(10,000 total typically) to keep the cash flowing. Portuguese Brazil was most always in a veritable state of anarchy. It's a really fascinating read  about the social structure.

That's why Brazil, by many wealthy plantation owner's consent, as well as Pedro I, Declared Independence.  And because it was the son of Portuguese crown who declared it, no fireshot was heard, and the troops moved out.

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:58

Originally posted by Cywr

The Portugese only controlled the coastal areas up untill the 1800s, the interrior remained Terra Ingocnita somewhat.

Actually, the Portuguese settled along the the coast, and along the riverbanks of the Amazon and made some forays to the river Plata (and when a gold rush started, they began to go to the present region of Minas Gerais, methinks).

Brasil was never a Spanish colony. What occured was this: When Christopher Columbus returned after having discovered America, king John the second was not too pleased. He said that all of the lands Columbus had discovered belonged to the Portuguese crown. Naturally, those evil, evil Spaniards disagreed. Enter the pope, who being a spaniard himself settled a treaty that was both ambiguous, and advantageous to the Spanish. King John II however was no fool. He immediately counter-attacked, and in 1494, the Tordesillas treaty was signed, dividing the world between Spain and Portugal. Brasil fell into Portugal's half, and subsequently, Portuguese adventurers (along with their halfbreed kids) expanded the Portuguese territory, in spite of the treaty (forcing later treaties to be signed). Cabral discovered Brasil en route to India. I don't give much credence to reports of previous discoveries. It was never a Spanish colony, though it could be said that it was part of the Spanish Empire during the Iberian union.

As for the dutch, they occupied the north west for some years, but were eventually expelled. As for them leaving influence, I don't know. Dutch presence was mostly military occupation. According to C.R. Boxer, one of the reasons why the dutch lost was because the Portuguese settled the country, while the Dutch just went there to fight, and then leave.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 12:22
I know that Suriname is a dutch colony...or at least it was...
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