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Was Brazil a spanish colony?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
Forum Discription: All aspects of world history, especially topics that span across many regions or periods
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=136
Printed Date: 10-May-2024 at 15:46
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Topic: Was Brazil a spanish colony?
Posted By: boody4
Subject: Was Brazil a spanish colony?
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 18:18
I heard or read somewhere that Brazil was sold to Portugal by Spain? If this is true, can someone tell me the story of what happened and why they sold it?



Replies:
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 18:32
 In 1500, a Portugese sailor by the name of Cabral was blown off course on the way back from India (or possibly on the way too India, i get confused), and ended up off the coast Brazil, and claimed it for Portugal.
A deal with Spain was then made that effectivly divided the whole world into two halves, one for Spain and one for Portugal. Initialy this techncly only gave the eastern fringe of South America to Portugal, but some sort of deal was made later that allowed for a larger Portugese claim.

So it was Portugese 'right from the start' or at the very least, Portugal was the first European country to claim and later rule it.

For a while, the Spanish and Portugese crowns were united, bringing Portugals empire under indirect Spainsh rule, round about this time the Dutch siezed Brazil and kept if for 30 odd years, before the Portugese kicked them out after the ill-fated union with Spain ended.

Or something like that at least.

On the Cabral thing, i think it was on the way back from India, as the winds tended to blow south along the African coast, and north further out at sea (depending on teh time of year), so typicly Portugese ships would stay close to the African coast whilst sailing too India, and on the way back, having rounded the cape, would head out into the middle of the Atlantic to catch the northerly winds.
But i could be mistaken (got it the wrong way round).


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Cornellia
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:43

If I'm not mistaken, the prevailing winds would be from Africa to the new world....at least that's the direction the hurricanes that form off the coast of Africa take.........

Now if someone would just pinch the wings off that demmed butterfly........



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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 19:57
Hmm, but not everywhere, round the equator the winds die off, then there is the duldrums or whatever its called.

Anyways, this would be southern hemisphere so...


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Cornellia
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 20:43

The doldrums are in the area just north of the equator between two belts of trade winds.   Hurricanes originate here because of the large amount of solar radiation that arrives at the earth in this area causes intense heating of the land and ocean. The doldrums are also noted for calms, periods when the winds disappear, trapping sailing vessels for days or weeks.



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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 21:28
Hmm, i found this:

Sailing southward past these clouds winds blew in the contrary direction, pushing ships backwards, and into the middle of the South Atlantic. (Accompanying these prevailing winds were powerful matching currents).

Rather than fight these winds, Portuguese sailors would have to sail westward almost all the way across the South Atlantic to Brazil before turning to the east, to the southern tip of Africa.


From http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~feegi/weather.html - here .

So i did infact muddle things up, Cabral would probably have discovered Brasil on the way to India, and not on the way back.



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Posted By: Cornellia
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 21:39
Ah...okay.....now I see.

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Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas


Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:17
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 00:24
Whilst the Spanish/Portugese did appeal to the pope, i've heard a somewhat more cynical approach that suggested that the Pope was in their pockets, that the deal was already made, and the Pope's approval just a formality.
Not sure though.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 12:36

My understanding is that Pope Alexander VI (Borga) gave most of the new world to the Spanish monarchy but this was untenable politically and Portugual and Spain then cut a deal by giving Portugal any terrorities east of a certain line on the map, as was measured from West Africa where the Portugese were then active.  Brazil was not discovered at this point and they were arguing over unknowns.  Just turned out that Brazil sticks out far enough to West Africa to have made it within Portugal's ambit under the treaty.



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Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 13:47

Starting with Cabral, most Portuguese historians agree that Cabral sailed to Bahia on purpose, because for any reason he knew that there was land there and wanted to gain fame.  He merely used currents as and excuse to sail west to the New World.  And he was on his way to India when he made it to Bahia.

And I never heard of Spain selling Brazil to Spain, but maybe its that the Portuguese king fled to Brazil when Napoleon conquered Portugal. 

 



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Grrr..


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 15:13
Hmm, its possible, technicly Spanish sailors had passed that region of Brazil a few months before Cabral did, so maybe he figured if its in the Portugese part of the deal (Treaty of Tordesillas, which was indeed signed before Cabrals little trip, Kudos to Fielding for pointing out that little error), he could claim it. Would make sense.

Hmm, just checked the Wiki, one of the main reasons that Portugal was able to expan further into Brazil, and the Spanish claim the Philipines, was because of the difficulty in accuratly determining Longetude, it was never really enforced between the two.
Also it said that Cabral's voyage was on the way to India, and he discovered Madagascar on the same journey, eventualy arriving in India to establish the trading port at Calicut (which was his intended target apparently).


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Posted By: Imperatore Dario I
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 15:58
How much of Brazil did the Dutch Empire actually occupy? I mean, it seems more of the coastline, while the rest was not conquered by the Dutch! But go Portuguese Empire for kicking the Dutch out!

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“Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.”- Virgil's Aeneid


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 17:23
The Portugese only controlled the coastal areas up untill the 1800s, the interrior remained Terra Ingocnita somewhat.
The Dutch ruled the Area around Recife, which i think they made their capital, and their infulence can still be seen there, and they ruled much of the Northern Coastal area in general.
Though the Dutch had been active in Brazil as early as the late 1500s, in areas as of then not occupied by the Portugese somewhere on the mouth of the Amazon was one attempt at starting a colony, could have come a Brazilian Manhatten.
Seeing as the Dutch were at war with the Spanish fighting for their independance, and Spain had taken over Portugal, Brazil was considereed fair game.
Though really this is the WIC (West Indies Company in English), and not the Dutch state, which was kind of busy kicking the Spanish out of their country.


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Posted By: mauk4678
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 11:07
In 1493 Pope Alexander IV  drew up the Papal Line of Demarcation, to settle territorial disputes. In 1494 the Portuguese demanded the line be moved 270 leagues west, and the Treaty of Tourdesillas was signed, giving the portuguese most of what is now the Brazillian coast.

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Posted By: Imperatore Dario I
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 18:33
Well Brazil was a valuable Portuguese territory, it was the only thing that actually kept Portugal in line with the other European powers, even though it was barely so.

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“Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.”- Virgil's Aeneid


Posted By: mauk4678
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 18:47

The portuguese were the only people to benefit from that relationship. They had just enough troops present in their colonies(10,000 total typically) to keep the cash flowing. Portuguese Brazil was most always in a veritable state of anarchy. It's a really fascinating read  about the social structure.



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Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 19:01

Well Brazil was a valuable Portuguese territory, it was the only thing that actually kept Portugal in line with the other European powers, even though it was barely so.

The most valuable Portuguese colony.  The king even evacuated his regime into Rio when Napoleon conquered Iberian Peninsula

The portuguese were the only people to benefit from that relationship. They had just enough troops present in their colonies(10,000 total typically) to keep the cash flowing. Portuguese Brazil was most always in a veritable state of anarchy. It's a really fascinating read  about the social structure.

That's why Brazil, by many wealthy plantation owner's consent, as well as Pedro I, Declared Independence.  And because it was the son of Portuguese crown who declared it, no fireshot was heard, and the troops moved out.



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Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:58

Originally posted by Cywr

The Portugese only controlled the coastal areas up untill the 1800s, the interrior remained Terra Ingocnita somewhat.

Actually, the Portuguese settled along the the coast, and along the riverbanks of the Amazon and made some forays to the river Plata (and when a gold rush started, they began to go to the present region of Minas Gerais, methinks).

Brasil was never a Spanish colony. What occured was this: When Christopher Columbus returned after having discovered America, king John the second was not too pleased. He said that all of the lands Columbus had discovered belonged to the Portuguese crown. Naturally, those evil, evil Spaniards disagreed. Enter the pope, who being a spaniard himself settled a treaty that was both ambiguous, and advantageous to the Spanish. King John II however was no fool. He immediately counter-attacked, and in 1494, the Tordesillas treaty was signed, dividing the world between Spain and Portugal. Brasil fell into Portugal's half, and subsequently, Portuguese adventurers (along with their halfbreed kids) expanded the Portuguese territory, in spite of the treaty (forcing later treaties to be signed). Cabral discovered Brasil en route to India. I don't give much credence to reports of previous discoveries. It was never a Spanish colony, though it could be said that it was part of the Spanish Empire during the Iberian union.

As for the dutch, they occupied the north west for some years, but were eventually expelled. As for them leaving influence, I don't know. Dutch presence was mostly military occupation. According to C.R. Boxer, one of the reasons why the dutch lost was because the Portuguese settled the country, while the Dutch just went there to fight, and then leave.



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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 12:22
I know that Suriname is a dutch colony...or at least it was...

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Grrr..


Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:01
As for the dutch, they occupied the north west for some years, but were eventually expelled. As for them leaving influence, I don't know. Dutch presence was mostly military occupation. According to C.R. Boxer, one of the reasons why the dutch lost was because the Portuguese settled the country, while the Dutch just went there to fight, and then leave.


IIRC, the influence can still be noted in Recife, the 'Venice of Brasil' or whatever, some arcitecture stuff and what not. The Dutch didn't just go their to fight, this was an WIC (West Indies company) affair, they went there to make money.

Suriname is former Dutch Guyana, been indipendant since 1975.


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Arrrgh!!"


Posted By: Degredado
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:32

Originally posted by Cywr

IIRC, the influence can still be noted in Recife, the 'Venice of Brasil' or whatever, some arcitecture stuff and what not.

You're right. I just read a few things about Recife. They did influence urban architecture (particularly, Nassau was responsible for the construction of a few bridges).

 

The Dutch didn't just go their to fight, this was an WIC (West Indies company) affair, they went there to make money.
That was precisly Boxer's point. They were only interested in making money, whereas the Portuguese wanted to settle down.

Interestingly enough, I found this:

Ao longo desse quarto de século, os sete anos chamados "tempo de Nassau" (1637 a 1644) marcaram o apogeu do domínio holandês no Brasil, originando a crença segundo a qual o destino do país seria mais nobre caso o projeto colonial da Companhia das Índias Ocidentais fosse mantido. No entanto, o fato é que, como o próprio Nassau previra, menos de um ano depois de sua partida - antes da qual o conde fez voar "um couro de boi cheio de palha preso por fios que a noite escondia” -, azedou-se de vez o doce Brasil holandês.
In other words, it was all fine for the Dutch as long as Nassau was there, but as soon as he left, Dutch Brasil went to hell. The WIC got too greedy

 



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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 15:34
Originally posted by Cywr

A deal with Spain was then made that effectivly divided the whole worldinto two halves, one for Spain and one for Portugal.


The Treaty of Tordesillas.

For a while, the Spanish and Portugese crowns were united, bringing Portugals empire under indirect Spainsh rule


Right, Brazil was part of a "greater" Spanish Empire. But do take into account that the idea of Spain at the time was different to the modern nation-state which is Spain.

The king was, officially, King of Aragon, King of Castilla y León, King of Portugal, etc. Aka "King of the Spains", not Spain.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 15:43
Originally posted by Cywr

Whilst the Spanish/Portugese did appeal to the pope, i've heard asomewhat more cynical approach that suggested that the Pope was intheir pockets, that the deal was already made, and the Pope's approval just a formality.Not sure though.


The Pope was a Borgia, which is the Italianized name of the family Borja, from Gandia, Spain. No surprise then.


Posted By: lars573
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 00:43

Taken from http://www.geocities.com/eurprin/castile.html - http://www.geocities.com/eurprin/castile.html

 

1579-1688

King of Castile, Leon, Aragon, both Sicilies, Jerusalem, Portugal, Navarra, Granada, Toledo, Valencia, Galicia, Majorca, Sevilla, Sardinia, Cordova, Corsica, Murcia, Jaen, the Algarve, Algeciras, Gibraltar, the Canary Islands,

the Eastern & Western Indias, the Islands & Mainland of the Ocean sea;
Archduke of Austria;
Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Milan;
Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tyrol, Barcelona;
Lord of Biscay, Molina;
 
This is the offical list of royal titles held by the spanish Habsburgs form the dates indicated. It lists all of the holdings of the spanish royal family.
 
It also says
 Added:

- Habsburg

- Portugal
King Philip II forced the Portuguese to recognized him as King of Portugal (1581).

@ Replaced

- "the Indias" with "the Eastern & Western Indias"
 
 
The map below shows europe after the end of the 30 years war in 1648. I posted it so that the above list of titles makes sense. The map is coloured so that holdings of the same royal family are shown in the same colour. Spainish Habsburgs are dark green, Austrian habsburg are the lighter pink colour, papal enclaves are brown. Some inaccuracies are that portugal is a differant colour and that it's called kingdom of spain not the spains. The reason Tyrol, Habsburg, and Austria are on the title list is because of a wierd german inherritance tradition where by the whole family is lord of a fief and all members bare the title of that fief. That is all members of the Habsburg family have the title ArchDuke of Austria Princely count of Tyrol and Count of Habsburg.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 15:32

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice map!

(Sorry, I could not help to say it) Apologies.

About Tordesillas Treaty: It can look a bit strange to divide the world in two parts and saying half for you and half for me but consider:

1) Portugal and Spain were the only maritime power: France, Holland, England... meant nothing at this particular moment.

2) Obviously, other Christian powers were not included in the deal. They were not saying England for you, France for me.

3) The main objective was avoiding quarrel about the spheres of influence. In that sense the treaty was successful: Spain and Portugal did not have any war until 1580 (a phoney war) or even 1640. Meanwhile most of the wars between European powers from, say, 1600 to 1945 were a result of the competence for colonies.

 



Posted By: lars573
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2004 at 18:28
Why thank you i have over a dosen links to site like the one where that map came from and where the spainish royal titles came from.



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