The future of Karabakh

Originally posted by mamikon yes, lets hope everything ends fine and daddy for poor oil rich Azeries  hopefully the next stop for these pesky Armenians is the inferno...

No, hopefully the next stop will be a peaceful Transcaucasia, where Turks, Armenians, and Georgians are all happy and leave in peace.

But you haven't offered us your perspective on the future? What will in your opinion sustain the unsustainable Armenian occupatoin of Azerbaijan?

     There are so many mistakes here. The most absurd one is calling the massacre of 613 people genocide... and this coming from the side who is so conservative with the G-word, to the point where its literally treated as a curse word in some discussions. Are you guys for real? I'm not being sarcastic, I seriously do not understand where you guys are going with this 

Originally posted by bg Turk It wasnt me who used the G-word, it was the Council of Europe:

come now, lets not lie. It is not the Council of Europe, its 30 members from different parties, moreover 21 of them represent Turkey/Azerbaijan...try harder bg.

what do you mean? isnt your nick "bg turk"?

wow.

It is not the Council of Europe,

Yes it is, it can be considered a genocide, so can the acts of Armenian agression like the monstrous acts of 1905, the barbaric extermination in 1918-1920, the major resettlement 1948-53 and the last genocide in 1988-89.

If history is exammined objectively the shocking realisation that Armenia is in no way some kind of innocent angelic punching bag of the region will be understood.

Maybe Azerbaycan should take the Armenian approach, forget about hard facts and evidence instead parrade around the globe forcing parliments into accepting the Azeri Genocide. It could say, if you want a deal in the country and to start a project accept that the genocide happened.

    

no Armenia in 1905

Armenian Dashnek Forces existed and were backed by Russia, trained and also armed to participate in their Circassian genocide.


Enver's Army of Islam conquered most of Caucasus 1918-1920

Maybe in Armenian school books but in the real world it was WW1 and a war with Russia and the Bolshevik revolution was being put into place.

Stalin? 1948-1953

There is alot of evidence of Armenian generals antics in Central Asia, especially places like Kokland in present day Ozbekistan, also Nargiz Island.

1988-1989 you mean massacres of Armenians in Sumgait/Baku?

You mean the bus fight started by an Armenian to provoke tension, the Armenian was later found and tried.

But no, I was referrring to the Azeri Genocide comitted by Armenia which it will have to answer to.     

actually, before the Armenian hoax, the Dashnaks were operating against Russia

Oh yeah, sure they were, is that another story your taught in Armenian textbooks. Russians are the inventors of your Greater Armenia fantasies which led the Dashneks to even believe they would create a huge Armenia nation from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterrannean.


You do realise that Azerbaycan was actually an Independant country in 1918-1920, the troops were not "invading the whole of the Caucaus" as you wildy exagerrated but merely helping an independant Turk country from Russians and Armenians. Ofcourse after the Russian and their Armenian puppet forces entered, large parts of the population were slaughtered.

...I dont even know why you keep saying this

Armenian comitted what some investigators have called a "genocide", there are official agencies claiming it was a genocide. Armenia will have to answer to its crimes, over 20,000 massacred, hundred thousand injured, 1 million refugees, illegal occupation of 20% of Azerbaycan land.

When will Armenia come to terms with what its crimes and realise its not the poor, innocent suffering goody goddy angel in the region?

Its in Armenians best interests to accept its crimes, apologise to Azerbaycan and Turkey for its lies and try hard to build ties.

You may laugh at this proposal today but in 20-30 years you'll wish Armenia had done it. What prospects does Armenia have Mamikon? its just getting worse and worse and there is no sign of any improvements, they're being left out of all the activity in the region. Armenia has to swallow its pride and accept the reality, as much as they look down on Turks and think they'll never achieve anything, in the real world the Turks in the region are moving forward, sadly the same cannot be said for Armenia.
    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 14-Jul-2006 at 20:16

you do realise that Armenia and Georgia were also independent countries. Thus Enver's army was an invading force.

Invading force? invading where Azerbaycan? an already independant country who required millitary assistance, jeez whatever are you going to come up with next.


You again fail to provide evidence of your rumbling of Russian and Armenian forces slaughtering Azeri population.


In 1918-1920 during massive extermination 565,000 from 575,000 Azeris living the territory of the present-day Armenia were either killed or expelled. This figure is also confirmed in the book �The population of the Soviet Armenia, 1831-1931� by Z. Korkodyan. Also note, that the massacres of Azeris in Azerbaijan itself, in Baku on March 31, 1918 when in just only three days 12,000 people were killed by joint dashnak-bolshevik troops, or in Shamakhy district, where the number of victims reached 7 thousand in April 1918, or in Kuba district, where the number of villages ruined comprised 122, and other massacres committed by the dashnaks in the rest of Azerbaijan is a subject of distinct detailed discussion.

       After dashnaks in 1920 the Turks (Azeris) living in the Soviet Armenia comprised not more than 10,000.

A. RESULTS OF THE WORLD WAR I
Population of Armenia in 1914 1,014,255 Population of Armenia in 1919 961,677
Natural population increase in 1914-19 74,155 Turks (Azeris) remaining in Armenia by 1919 200,000
Emigrants from Turkey 300,000 Population remaining in Kars and Surmali by 1919 59,843
Armenian and Yezidi Kurd population in Surmali 130,753 ?
Overall 1,519,163 1,221,520
Losses 297,643

       B. RESULTS OF THE DASHNAK POLICY
Population 961,777 Population of Armenia in 1922 782,052
Number of expelled Turks-Azeri as a result of �cleansing� policy of the Dashnak government before 1919 200,000 Losses 429,858
Expelled Azeri Turks in 1920 60,000 Previous losses 297,643
Together 787,501

       In another document the national composition is given district by district5. The table below was included in the letter from the Prime-Minister of Azerbaijan to the chairman of the Paris Peace Conference (August 16, 1919) and gives information about the ethnic composition of the Nakhichevan, Sharur-Daralegez, Surmaly and Erivan ditricts:
? Nakhichevan Sharur-Daralegez Surmali Erivan
Azeris 62,5 72,3 68,0 60,2
Armenians 36,7 27,4 30,4 37,4
Other nationalities 0,8 0,4 1,6 2,4


You can also read about this

1. The massacres of 1905-1906


http://www.azerigenocide.org/hist/hist09.htm


Or if you want some Internation reports

Nagorno-Karabagh: The world�s forgotten genocide?


Armenians seize lands, expel Azeris with Soviet complicity
"Altogether, the Armenian hunger for ever more land led them to deport Azerbaijanis from certain areas during four different times in the 20th Century - in 1905, 1918-20, 1948-50, and in 1988.


"In the 1988 deportation, more than 200,000 Azeris living in Armenia were uprooted from their homes, almost overnight. This last deportation was tantamount to ethnic cleansing - because afterwards there were no ethnic Azeris left anywhere in Armenia. To our great regret, this deportation took place under the Soviet regime, with the full armed support of the Soviet Red Army.


Armenians stage Sumgayit killings with KGB help
"Ethnic Armenians were deeply involved in arranging the events that happened in Sumgayit. And the involvement of the Soviet KGB cannot be denied. We Azeris later came to understand that these events were directly linked to Gorbachev and his policies.


"Unfortunately, there were 26 Armenians killed in the events. We traced the backgrounds of those 26 victims. What we found later in KGB archives was that several years earlier those 26 people had refused to assist a clandestine Armenian group calling for the unification of Karabagh with Armenia. Armenians living in Azerbaijan sponsored that organization.


"So the Armenians killed during the Sumgayit events were people who refused to cooperate with that clandestine organization. In this way, the people who stood behind the Sumgayit events were able to kill their fellow Armenians.

http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/ciscentralasia/01/azerbaijan/nagornokarabagh.html


If you had read anything not Turkish you would know that all the Armenian army was concentrated in the Ararat valley

Oh so now you actually admit that the Armenians had armies and were fighting the Turks in a war, the war that they lost.

Now if we get back to the main topic.

One million refugees still languish in desperate conditions

"Thus, today in total we have about a million refugees and internally displaced people. There were over 200,000 people expelled from Armenia, about 40,000 ethnic Azeris displaced from Nagorno-Karabagh, and 700,000 people uprooted from the adjoining districts. Besides that, we also had an influx of 50,000 Iskan Turks expelled from Central Asia.


"All these people are dispersed over 58 districts of Azerbaijan in some 1600 camps and areas:
� 53,000 are living in tents.
� 12,000 of them were placed in railway boxcars.
� 30,000 are placed in
various farms and other types of rural construction, some in dugouts used previously used for winter animal shelter.
� 30,000 of them were placed in various educational facilities, such as schools, kindergartens.
� 100,000 of the refugees and internally displaced people (IDPs) are staying in unfinished, incomplete residential premises.
� Another 100,000 are placed in dormitories, and the remainder are dispersed in very poor living
conditions.


"Certainly, there was international assistance rendered to Azerbaijan as these events took place. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees was one of the first such organizations to arrive here, and then came the World Food Program. There was a very serious involvement of a number of non-governmental organizations from the US, Europe, Arab countries and Turkey.




Humanitarian aid decreasing
"Currently, there are 81 humanitarian organizations operating in Azerbaijan. Eleven of these are national, and 70 international. But from 1993 to 1995, the number of these organizations was 105.


"In 1994, these organizations provided $160 million; by contrast, the amount of assistance they provided last year was a mere $40 million.


"There is only one reason for this - a political solution to this conflict has been prolonged. Of course, the above organizations cannot function here forever, so there is nothing to blame them for. But, frankly speaking, the government of Azerbaijan is not able to replace this assistance.


�The assistance to refugees and IDPs from the government budget this year is around $45 million. A part of this $45 million provides a stipend of about $5 per refugee per month for bread.


�Apart from this, we also enacted a law called "Social Protection of the Refugees and IDPs. " According to that decree, these people are not charged for electricity, power, water supply, gas, communications, transportation, education, or health care; and they are exempt from all forms of taxation. The cost to government to cover these expenses amounts to approximately $200 million annually. Thus, our government�s direct and indirect assistance totals approximately $245 million a year. This is in addition to the $40 million provided by the outside humanitarian organizations.


"Returning to the issue of 907, since 1993 the US government has been providing financial assistance to Armenia at the rate of about $100 million a year. On the one hand we are dealing with aggression here � why is the aggressor entitled to humanitarian assistance from the US State Department?


"On the other hand, Azerbaijan is the victim here: we are the nation which has had its lands occupied. We are the country that has about a million refugees and IDPs. And we are the party that has been totally deprived of any kind of direct assistance. Isn�t that paradoxical?


"We have tried to show members of the Congress who support Armenia the reality of the Azeri refugees. I understand that in the US there are certain political dependencies when you get elected, and once you�re elected you can�t forget those who helped you win office.


"But I say to these members of Congress: �You can represent someone, that�s up to you. But you can also see some real truths in our refugee camps. By denying the realities, you are really not serving the Congress, and you undermine the image of America, the most democratic country in the world.


�The United States plays a leading role in all the issues that are concerned with the protection of human rights. Aren�t these one million refugees and IDPs human beings? Don�t they have human rights too?�


Negotiated solution sought
"Since 1993 there have been efforts made to solve the problem in a political way, within the framework of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Basically, these involve Russia, the US and France - the so-called �Minsk Group.� We can only note with regret that after many years of efforts, there have been no tangible results. The Minsk Group is the only body charged with the search to find a political solution to this problem. No one else is involved.


�The worldwide Armenian Diaspora which actually created this situation consists of people who have carved out entire political careers from this tragic issue. Naturally, they will continue their best efforts to preserve the status quo, and to impede the development of any solution, no matter how tragic for the people of Azerbaijan.�

Results of Armenian Aggression against Azerbaijan
� 25,000 killed
� 5,000 crippled
� 700,000 displaced
� 331,000 women
� 235,000 children
� 7,966 fatherless families
� 5,316 orphans
� 10 districts affected by fighting
Destroyed:
� 9 towns
� 730 villages and settlements
� 102,000 houses
� 7,000 public buildings
� 693 schools
� 191 hospitals
� 160 bridges
� 166 reservoirs
� 300 kilometers of roads
� 2,300 kilometers of water pipelines
� 15,000 kilometers of power lines
� $40 Billion total damage


When will Armenia apologise for its crimes and pay compensation for the suffering it has caused.


    
    
    

Edited by Bulldog - 15-Jul-2006 at 09:44

Originally posted by mamikon what did I say about this thread in the beginning bg? no one gives a damn except Armenians and Turks (and Turks who think they are British)...and like others, this will lead to a flame war.