The future of Karabakh
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Modern History
Forum Discription: World History from 1918 to the 21st century.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13298
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 05:27
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Topic: The future of Karabakh
Posted By: bg_turk
Subject: The future of Karabakh
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 10:28
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Currently the negotiations between Azerbaijan and Armenia on the resolution of the Karabakh conflict, resulting from Armenian agression into sovereign Azeri Turk territory, are stalled. I am just interested to know the opinions of forum members of what the future will bring. Obviously it is in the best interest of everybody that a conflict and resurgence of violance be avoided, and the objective is to achieve a solution allowing as many refugees as possible to return. Of course any solution should also maintiain an ethnic seggregation between Armenians and Azeri Turks as the two people have shown that they are utterly incapable of living together in peace. So my proposal in order to meet these objectives would be to cede the currently occupied territory of Karabakh to Armenia with the Lachin corridor in order to provide continuity between Armenia and the Karabakh enclave. In return Armenia must cede the Zanzibar corridor to provide a continuty between Azerbaijan and the Nakchievan exclave. All Armenian troops must immediately and uncoditionally withdraw from the rest of the sovereign Azerbaijan territories, namely the districts of Gubadli, Zengilan,Kelebecer,Agdam,Fizuli,Jabrail. Is this acceptable to the Armenian side, and if not - what is their counterproposal?   ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Replies:
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 16:57
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you are kidding right? give Zanzibar (Zangezur) back to Azeries? What about the people? there are Armenians living there? What about Iran? that is Armenia's only connection with Iran. Armenia is the agressor? karabakh was an autonomous republic and in 1989 the people decided to leave Azerbaidjan. Its not up to the Azeri government who rules Karabakh, but to the people who live in Karabakh. I have a feeling this thread is going to have a bleak future... ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 17:06
ok, Zangezur. I was wondering what the name of that province was.
They should be moved to Lachin. Azeris lived in Lanchin as well (or used to live before the Armenian invasion).
It is also Azerbaijan's only connection with Nakchievan and Turkey.
I did not want to turn it into you-did-this-you-did-that kind of thread, so I ask that you offer constructive and fair suggestions towards the resolution of the problem. How do you see the resolution of this conflict? What wil the future bring? Is it at all possible to resolve it through non-violant means? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 18:58
Since proposing the possibility of moving Armenians from Zangezur to
Lachin is near delusional, I propose something even more delusional.
How about we remove all the Turks from Eastern Turkey (should we call
this Western Armenia now) and move all the Armenians from Zangezur to
the Black Sea Coast  Armenian invasion? there wouldnt have been an invasion if Azeri forces hadnt attacked in the first place, and it wasnt Armenian invasion, it was Karabakh-Armenian. seriously dude, sometimes you come up with the most proposterous ideas ever...and since no one gives a damn about Nagorno Karabakh except Armenians and Turks this is going to end up as another flame war. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 20:28
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All I am asking you is how do you think the conflict will be resolved? What are the Armenian proposals? How do you see the future? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 13:30
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The Azeris have no choice but to officially acknowledge Nagorno-Karabagh as being an independent republic. It is possible that during the negotiations, Armenia would accept giving some of the buffer zone that it occupied (which is located outside the frontiers of Nagorno-Karabagh) but nothing else. Why? Because Karabagh and Armenia don't have to be treated as the losers of the war. Sovereign Armenia doesn't have to give any part of its territory to Azerbaijan. There's absolutely no point in doing that, especially when Nakhichevan has no respect to Armenian cultural heritage of its territory. The only thing that it can cede is access to the road that links Azerbaijan to Nakhichevan, and that is only if Azerbaijan accepts opening its own borders. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 14:03
Legally NK is a secetionist entity created on the ethnic cleansing a million Azeri Turks, and it will never be recognized as an independent republic for so long as it does not provide remedy to all the refugees displaced during its creation.
Armenia, has no choice but to vacate ALL the territories illegally occupied by her and recognized internationally as being under the soveregnity of Azerbaijan.
An Armenia that does not recognize the soveregnity of another state, expects her soveregnity to be recognized? On what grounds?
What an intransigent attitude. So you are leaving Azerbaijan no choice but to reclaim by force what was taken from her by force. Sooner or later Armenian will have to vacate the territories occupied by her and compromise. With the current climate in the region her position is simly unsustainable against the growing millitary and economic power of Azerbaijan. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 14:45
Even though Azerbaijan is very well capable of settling them in houses which were previously used by Armenians, it doesn't do it. Why? To get some legitimacy in the conflict? What about all the Armenian refugees who escaped from both NKR and Azerbaijan?
You must accept that those borders (and many other borders) were artificially created by a third party (the Soviet Union, in our case). Furthermore, Nagorno-Karabagh was an autonomous republic and its inhabitants decided to separate from Azerbaijan during a referendum before the war, all by respecting Soviet law.
Separating Zangezour from Armenia is pointless and would only create more trouble for its inhabitants, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. If Azerbaijan really is a growing military power, it would have already been marching into Karabagh at this instant. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 15:36
Armenia failed to gain victory in the conflict because Azerbaijan never specified defeat in a legal document. The war is ongoing, there is no peace now, what we have at the moment is a ceasefire. In order to avoid further bloodshed and renewal of hostilitiies an acceptable peace agreement must be signed. Your triumphalist and condescending attitude towards the Turkish side is not helping towards reaching this objective in any way. At the moment Armenia has territoritorial claims towards at least 3 of her 4 neighbours. Armenia must stop these maximalist demands, and try to reach a compromise. Armenia should not bite more than she can chew relying on an uninterrupted Russian support. A small instability in neighbouring Russia would be sufficient to turn around the tabels, and tilt the balance of power badly in favor of her opponents; or even an interruption of the energt supplies from Russia would render Armenia helpless. It is not in Armenia's best interest to escalate the situtation. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 15:48
Against the will of the Azeri Turks who also lived in the territoritory before they were forced out. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 16:33
There were not a million people living in Karabagh, let alone a million Azeris (we already said Azeri refugees were around 750,000, not 1 million). The population of Karabagh in 1920 was over 90% Armenian, and just before the war it was over 75%. The Azeri government altered the demographics by moving in hordes of Azeris into Karabagh and Nakhichevan, which lost all of its Armenian population (and lately they destroyed all trace that Armenians existed in Nakhichevan by destroying ancient Armenian cemeteries via military/government order). Funny how no one mentions that! Armenia doesn't have any outrageous demands, it only wants to ensure Karabagh does not fall under Azeri occupation (because of their failure to end their discriminatory policies through peaceful means). The buffer zone is only occupied because otherwise Karabagh would be landlocked in Azerbaijan and subsequently blockaded from all sides. Giving up the buffer zone would be suicide. Maybe if Turkey and Azerbaijan lift their blockades then they can start talking about giving lands back. First they must recognize Armenia exists as their neighbor... I don't see Turkey or Azerbaijan giving back territories they took from Armenia through war, so I don't see why Armenia should act any different (unless you have double standards?). Call it stubborn, but why should tiny Armenia give anything up when it has so little compared to its neighbors? And please don't tell me Armenia is in better shape than Azerbaijan... Azerbaijan has sea access and oil deposits/pipelines, while Armenia is landlocked, blockaded on both sides and with no natural resources. Armenia's only real trading partner, Iran, is a step away from being sanctioned by the U.N. Times are not good for Armenia in this respect, which is why they would not give up an inch of land to anybody...
Legally you may be right. But lets be realistic...who controls Karabagh? Not Azerbaijan. Everyday they talk about how they're going to get the lands back...if they could, they would do it. The point is that they can't.
Thats what Aliyev and his commanders thought the first time around. Its not in Azerbaijan's best interest to provoke Armenians to go to war. Not according to the last war, anyway. The Azeri military, with more soldiers and better weapons, fighting from a defensive position on a mountainous province, and they still lose? If they couldn't defend an occupied province from an inferior enemy, how would they attack and take it when the enemy is now prepared and in defensive positions? I don't think you know how mountainous Karabagh actually is. I've been there, and all I can tell the Azeris is "good luck". Question of the day: Why is it taking Azerbaijan over a decade to house its refugees (Armenia took care of this problem years ago)? Are they even taking any steps towards this problem, or are they simply leaving them homeless on purpose in order to muster hatred among Azeris towards Armenians for a future war effort? Hmm... ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 17:46
My purpose in opening this thread was to find constructive suggestions as to the future of the conflict, but clearly it is difficult when the parties are still bitterly fighting against each other.
The Azeri refugees from the conflict amount to more than a million, and they were not only expelled from Karabakh butt from the surrounding territories and Armenia (mainly Ararat region). I quote from Undeclared War: The Nagorn- Karabakh Conflict Reconsidered Svante E. Cornell Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Vol. XX, No. 4, Summer 1997
Condemnable as they are these acts against Armenian cultural heritage in Nakchievan, if at all true, for I have yet to see some independent non-Armenians sources for them, the systematic campaign of cleansing all Azeri and Turkish culture from Armenia must not be overlooked either. Today not a single trace of Turkishness remains in Armenia, even though historically and up until recently in some regions (as Ararat) Turks have lived in substantial numbers.
Karabakh cannot fall under Azeri occupation, because legally and internationally it is part of Azerbiajan. The Armenians in NK can invoke the principe of self-determination for their seperatist and cleansing activities until the cow come home, but the UN is abundantly clear that self-determination does not necessarily mean secession:
The struggle for self-determination, in itself, clearly reflects the desire of the Armenian population of Karabakh. This is not illegitimate, nor is it contrary to International Law. What is illegitimate and illegal is the practices of scorched earth and brutal attacks on civilian population, notably in areas that had a homogeneous Azerbaijani population, in the intention to militarily acquire as much territory as possible. Was it self-determination and self-defense that lead Armenia to occupy the surrounding regions which were homogenously Azeri populated, expell all women and children from those regions, and commit massacres against hundreds in Khojaly? The Parliamentary Assembly of the European Council calls for the recognition of Armenian acts against civilian acts Azeri Turks as acts of Genocide in a declaration supported by Luxemburg, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Turkey, Albania among others: http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?Link=/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm - Recognition of the genocide perpetrated against the Azeri population by the Armenians
This is precisely why I am saying Armenia should compromise now while it still has the upper hand, for in the end in the hope of getting more, it may loose everything. Take the example of Cyprus. If Denktash had compromised before the Greek Administration had entered the EU, the Turkish Cypriots and Turkey would have been in a much better situation. What happened is that Denktash's uncompromising policy strengthened the hand of Greek hardliners on the south of the buffer zone and gave them EU leverage.
You are being very arrogant in asking this question. As if it is not enough that Armenia forced these people out of their homes, now she is blaming others that they cannot provide housing to the victims of her agression. Some 1,000,000 to 1,200,000 Azeris have been displaced before, during and after the conflict. The total population of Azerbaijan being less than seven and a half million, the impact on the country of such a refugee flow is easy to imagine. (10 to 15% of the population of the country consists of displaced persons, some of whom are still living without permanent housing or assistance). As Prof. Kornell states: " During 1993, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) provided assistance to a meager 53000 people. Although the aid was increased to cover approximately 300000 by the end of 1994, the UNHCR provides assistance only to refugees that crossed an international border, but not to internally displaced persons. The amount of foreign aid allocated to Azerbaijan remains grossly disproportionate to the condition of the country. This fact can be related to two main factors : First of all, the indifferent or even hostile attitude towards Azerbaijan in at least three of the major powers, where Armenian pressure groups are of considerable influence in the policy-making process. Second, the absence of the so-called CNN-effect, that is the effect of the presence of western media which has proven to be so crucially important in influencing western governments to take actions." Azerbaijan is the only former Soviet republic that is denied U.S. aid, whereas Armenia is the highest per capita recipient among these states in parts thanks to you and your kin in the diaspora. As to your self-lamentation in the end that Azeris hate Armenians because of the failure of the Azeri government to provide housing, you are completely off the mark again ... what flames hate is the the very Armenian agression on them that you are defening here. In conclusion I quote again from Prof. Cornell's work:
------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 18:08
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Well Armenia had 200,000-300,000 refugees (out of a
population of 3 million), and then there was an earthquake in 1988
which killed 25,000 and left many more homeless. How was Armenia able
to take care of its refugees even while being landlocked and blockaded,
but Azerbaijan couldn't? The point of my question was to scrutinize the
government of Azerbaijan, not to laugh at others' misfortunes. Its
clear that they leave these people homeless on purpose in order to
generate hatred towards Armenians (afterall they have Armenian
flag-burning factories operating in Azerbaijan). And what do you call the ethnic cleansing in Nakhichevan, and the government order to destroy ancient Armenian cemeteries? Do you really want Armenians living under such a regime? ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 18:29
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Azerbaycan backed by Turkey, Turkic countries and the OIC should push for International recognition of the Karabag massacres and call for International investigators to determine if its fits the criteria for genocide.
Armenia must me made to pay for the suffering and pain it caused by its Illegal occupation and oppression of these people. It should be made to compensate the Million refugees and the twenty thousand killed and make a full public apology for its crimes. It would be best for Armenia to do this, the region is moving forward rapidly. Armenia missed out on the B-T-C and now the Kazakistan and Turkmenistan extenstions. The new railway project, the Nabucco project and more projects which will follow. In other words, Armenia needs Azerbaycan and Turkey a whole lot more than they need Armenia. They can carry on like this and in the long run its Armenia who will regret its actions must deeply. Already 50% lived below the powerty line in Armenia, think 20-30-40 years into the future, it looks bleak especially realising there are no future region projects and that their missing out ofwhat their neighbours are getting. Georgia is the biggest winner, its taken Armenia's role. It would be best for Armenia to try and broker a deal now, Azerbaycan can wait untill its in an even more powerfull position. You see, after it gets all the projects up and running it has alot more lea-way and is in a better position to get justice  ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 18:30
After stealing the homes of more than a million Azeris, the Armenian regime had an abundance of accomodation to provid as yourself should have noted during your visits to the occupied territories of Azerbaijan. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 18:42
Bulldog, Azerbayjan is entirely isolated in this conflict and is backed by nobody. It is surrounded by hostile states which for one or another reason wish to keep it weakened and subdued. Russia would never suppor Azerbaijan, for she sees in Armenia a historical and loyal ally. Iran, too is hostile towards Azerbaijan, fearing secetionist activitiy amongst its Azeri minority. USA, is also adopting a very pro-Armenian position, which can be easily explained as it is under heavy pressure from the Armenian lobby. Until recently the USA had an article which banned any direct aid to Azerbaijan, whereas Armenia, after Israel, was the biggest recipient of US aid. Even Turkey falls very shor of supporting Azerbaijan. Apart from the economic blockade and the lobbying noises in the international arena in solidarity with Azerbaijan, Turkey has done absolutely nothing in economic or millitary assistance to Azerbaijan. The fact remains that Azerbaijan did not get the support it expected from Turkey. Azerbaijani dissatisfaction was especially strong when Turkey, after American pressure, lifted the total embargo on Armenia that it held together with Azerbaijan, which prevented even humanitarian assistance to Armenia to pass through Turkey. The Azeri reaction was commonly voiced in terms such as They claim to be our brothers but give bread to our enemies. Another factor which constrains Turkey is the legacy of the 1915 genocide. This factor has been cleverly exploited by both the Armenian government and the diaspora, in such a way that any Turkish intervention would result in an outcry of a renewed "genocide" against the Armenian people. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 19:55
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Azerbayjan is entirely isolated in this conflict and is backed by nobody.
Today, its "officially" backed by nobody your correct, it was for years at the mercy of Armenian terrorism and ethnic cleansing programs. But nothing stays the same, today the B-T-C opened, the Iran crisis is growing, more deals have been signed, things from today have changed. Russia would never suppor Azerbaijan, for she sees in Armenia a historical and loyal ally. Your correct about Russia being anti-Azerbaycan but your reasons are incorrect. Armenia means as little to Russia as Azerbaycan does, it doesn't simply support Armenia cos its a "pal" or because it feels some kind of emotional attachment towards it. No, the reason is simple, Armenia is the only country left in the Caucauses which obeys them and is in their mercy. They have alot of dominance, millitary bases and its a last hold for the Russians. In addition, Russia didn't want to loose its oil prospects in Azerbaycan or want any Natural Gas and Oil rivals to its long-term monopoly in supplying the West. Iran, too is hostile towards Azerbaijan, fearing secetionist activitiy amongst its Azeri minority. Totally correct, a succesfull Azerbaycan is Iran's worst nightmare. Already unrest is growing South of Azerbaycan's border it will only intesify if Azerbaycan and pro-Turk thinking rises in the area. Infact, ever since Azerbaycan's first independance back in the first world war, Iran and Russia have done nothing except try to destroy it. When the Republic was re-established again after the break-up of the Soviet Union again Iran and Russia tried so hard to wipe Azerbaycan off the map. They were determined to makesure Azerbaycan failed and never poked its head up again. But they both failed, so did Armenia, even after all the massacred, the crimes and oppression it has managed to survive and even move forward and has a brighter future than other countries in the region. USA, is also adopting a very pro-Armenian position, which can be easily explained as it is under heavy pressure from the Armenian lobby. Until recently the USA had an article which banned any direct aid to Azerbaijan, whereas Armenia, after Israel, was the biggest recipient of US aid. The reason for this has been due to the "Armenian Lobby", it practically funds Armenia with its hand-outs and charity at the expense of the American tax payer. They have also forced the U.S to turn a blind eye to their ethnic cleansing program against Azeri Turks and illegally occupying their land. However, America is interested in its "interests". Russia is not finished as it assumed, the Iran problem is brewing, Iraq is in havoc. Now more than ever, America needs a safe, reliable, stable source of energy. It needs to proove that countries with muslim populations can be democratic, a friend of the West and be technologically advanced, improve human rights and freedoms etc. Today more than ever, America needs not only Turkey but the other Turkic countries who are following a similar model in some aspects. Now, it has a choice, will it be bullied by the Armenian lobby into simply rejecting making deals, agreements and improving relations with Turks simply because their Turks and Armenians don't like them. Will it allow itself to loose out on a big chance, pushing them instead closer to Russia or even extremism and stance's like Iran. The U.S doesn't want a dozen other Iran's to cut off its energy alltogether. Armenians have been able to get away with their behaviour because they didn't conflict with America's interests for a long time. But the situation has changed, Armenian Lobbies will have to take the back-seat. Today Armenia offers nothing to America, absolutely nothing, its a waste of the tax-payers funds on a state which offers no energy resources, no strategic importance, is inward-looking and doesn't help U.s strategies at all. The more deals Azerbaycan completes, the bigger and more powerfull its hand gets. Ultimately in the long-run Armenia will loose out because they are too busy just thinking about today and not planning for the future. What does the Armenian Lobby care about the situation in the country Armenia, their living cosy lifes in America and think its the same back there. p.s If you want to know what Azerbaycan-Turkey relations are today, go there and see for yourselves, there is a famous phrase, what is it? one nations two coountries... the two countries are moving closer and closer together and will continue to do so. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 20:08
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Interesting analysis, Bulldog. Surely the long run prospects for Armenia do not look too good. Russian influence in the region is in decline with the democratic revolution in Georgia and Chechen seperatism. Iran may soon be faced with an economic blockade and isolation. The USA is realigning her foreign policy in transcaucasia due to the regions richness in oil. Everything indicates that Armenia's isolation will only deepen unless something really weird happens. We can just sit back and watch what the future will bring. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 20:21
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yes, lets hope everything ends fine and daddy for poor oil rich Azeries hopefully the next stop for these pesky Armenians is the inferno...  ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 20:36
Thanks for your contribution, it was magical  ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 20:55
No, hopefully the next stop will be a peaceful Transcaucasia, where Turks, Armenians, and Georgians are all happy and leave in peace. But you haven't offered us your perspective on the future? What will in your opinion sustain the unsustainable Armenian occupatoin of Azerbaijan? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 21:21
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because this thread is a joke (or maybe it became so when bulldog entered...)
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Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 21:34
There are so many mistakes here. The most absurd one is
calling the massacre of 613 people genocide... and this coming from the
side who is so conservative with the G-word, to the point where its
literally treated as a curse word in some discussions. Are you guys for
real? I'm
not being sarcastic, I seriously do not understand where you guys are
going with this 
------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 21:50
It wasnt me who used the G-word, it was the Council of Europe: http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?Link=/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm - http://assembly.coe.int/main.asp?Link=/documents/workingdocs/doc01/edoc9066.htm Whatever word we use for it, it was still a systematic massacre against the townspeople of Khojaly, and the saddest part is that its perpetrators still walk as free men in the occupied territories. They should be all tried at the International Warcrimes Tribunal in Hague, and hanged by their balls. But this wasn't the point... So what was the point of this thread? The point was that I wanted to gain deeper insights into what to expect from the future, to get to know your expectations, hopes and fears. Will Armenians "finish off" Azerbaijan and force her to capitulate? Will the status quo contine? For how long? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:10
come now, lets not lie. It is not the Council of Europe, its 30 members from different parties, moreover 21 of them represent Turkey/Azerbaijan...try harder bg. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:29
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Mamikon, I have always wondered... why do you write my name as bg Turk when you quote me? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:39
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what do you mean? isnt your nick "bg turk"?
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:50
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yeah, but usually when you use the quote facility it just comes out as bg_turk. I was wondering if you are trying to make a subtle point.
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Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 23:14
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wow. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 23:29
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oh sorry. No, no point...On my screen all nicks are underlined, I
thought yours is too, so it seems like there is a space between bg and
turk. I dont use the quote facility, I type [QUOTE=bg turk [/QUOTE ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 07:23
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It is not the Council of Europe,
Yes it is, it can be considered a genocide, so can the acts of Armenian agression like the monstrous acts of 1905, the barbaric extermination in 1918-1920, the major resettlement 1948-53 and the last genocide in 1988-89. If history is exammined objectively the shocking realisation that Armenia is in no way some kind of innocent angelic punching bag of the region will be understood. Maybe Azerbaycan should take the Armenian approach, forget about hard facts and evidence instead parrade around the globe forcing parliments into accepting the Azeri Genocide. It could say, if you want a deal in the country and to start a project accept that the genocide happened. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 07:30
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lol no Armenia in 1905 Enver's Army of Islam conquered most of Caucasus 1918-1920 Stalin? 1948-1953 1988-1989 you mean massacres of Armenians in Sumgait/Baku? (documented, videos) fortunetly for Armenians not everyone in the world is so arrogantly turkeophilic as you are... ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 18:57
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no Armenia in 1905
Armenian Dashnek Forces existed and were backed by Russia, trained and also armed to participate in their Circassian genocide. Enver's Army of Islam conquered most of Caucasus 1918-1920 Maybe in Armenian school books but in the real world it was WW1 and a war with Russia and the Bolshevik revolution was being put into place. Stalin? 1948-1953 There is alot of evidence of Armenian generals antics in Central Asia, especially places like Kokland in present day Ozbekistan, also Nargiz Island. 1988-1989 you mean massacres of Armenians in Sumgait/Baku? You mean the bus fight started by an Armenian to provoke tension, the Armenian was later found and tried. But no, I was referrring to the Azeri Genocide comitted by Armenia which it will have to answer to. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 19:34
actually, before the Armenian Genocide, the Dashnaks were operating against Russia...and wow, you have somehow tied Circassians with Armenia 
In 1918, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enver_Pasha - Enver Pasha , the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Minister - War Minister for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire - Ottoman Empire ordered the creation of a new military force. Unlike the rest of the Turkish army which had a very large number of German officers effectively running things, this force was composed entirely of Muslims, many of whom were Turkic-speakers. The purpose of this military force was to conquer new lands for the Ottoman Empire in the southern Caucasus. The exclusion of German officers from this army was deliberate. By the end of 1917, Enver Pasha concluded that the Germans and the Turks did not have compatible goals now that the Russian Empire had collapsed. This feeling was confirmed by the terms of the treaty of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litowsk - Treaty of Brest-Litowsk which was very favorable to the Germans. This new Army of Islam would answer only to him, not the German government. The Army of Islam numbered between 14,000 and 25,000 men. The army marched without much opposition through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_Armenia - Democratic Republic of Armenia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Democratic_Republic - Azerbaijan Democratic Republic . The British sent a small military force under the command of General http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Charles_Dunsterville - Lionel Charles Dunsterville into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku - Baku , which arrived around http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_4 - August 4 ,
1918. But a month later the British withdrew in the face of the much
larger Ottoman army. With the end of the war (based on the armistice of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_30 - October 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918 - 1918 ) and the political fall of Enver Pasha, the Army of Islam soon disintergrated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Islam - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_Islam Although Dunsterville's orders seemed clear-cut, no one knew much about
the military situation in the Transcaucasus. In fact, a Turkish
military mission, headed by Enver Pasha's brother, Nuri Pasha, had
arrived at Tabriz, in what is now northern Iran, in May 1917 and was
organizing a Caucasus-Islam army, sometimes referred to by Enver as his
"Army of Islam," to bring Azerbaijan under Ottoman rule. Soon
afterward, an advance column of 12,000 men, commanded by Mursal Pasha,
was making its ponderous way toward Baku. Germans and Turks controlled
most of the local railways, and Persian revolutionaries called
Jangalis, led by warlord Mirza Kuchik Khan, terrorized the Enzeli road. http://www.historynet.com/mh/blbaku/ - http://www.historynet.com/mh/blbaku/
Armenian generals in central asia? care to show evidence?
On one hand you have a bus fight, on the other more than 100
Armenian civilian deaths in Sumgait and Baku (1988-1989)...you tell me,
what worse?
lol, I really dont have a comback to this...I dont even know why you
keep saying this, its not like anyone here is stupid enough to believe
you. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 20:12
actually, before the Armenian hoax, the Dashnaks were operating against Russia
 Oh yeah, sure they were, is that another story your taught in Armenian textbooks. Russians are the inventors of your Greater Armenia fantasies which led the Dashneks to even believe they would create a huge Armenia nation from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterrannean.
You do realise that Azerbaycan was actually an Independant country in 1918-1920, the troops were not "invading the whole of the Caucaus" as you wildy exagerrated but merely helping an independant Turk country from Russians and Armenians. Ofcourse after the Russian and their Armenian puppet forces entered, large parts of the population were slaughtered. ...I dont even know why you keep saying this Armenian comitted what some investigators have called a "genocide", there are official agencies claiming it was a genocide. Armenia will have to answer to its crimes, over 20,000 massacred, hundred thousand injured, 1 million refugees, illegal occupation of 20% of Azerbaycan land. When will Armenia come to terms with what its crimes and realise its not the poor, innocent suffering goody goddy angel in the region? Its in Armenians best interests to accept its crimes, apologise to Azerbaycan and Turkey for its lies and try hard to build ties. You may laugh at this proposal today but in 20-30 years you'll wish Armenia had done it. What prospects does Armenia have Mamikon? its just getting worse and worse and there is no sign of any improvements, they're being left out of all the activity in the region. Armenia has to swallow its pride and accept the reality, as much as they look down on Turks and think they'll never achieve anything, in the real world the Turks in the region are moving forward, sadly the same cannot be said for Armenia. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 20:30
you do realise that Armenia and Georgia were also independent countries. Thus Enver's army was an invading force. You again fail to provide evidence of your rumbling of Russian and Armenian forces slaughtering Azeri population. If you had read anything not Turkish you would know that all the Armenian army was concentrated in the Ararat valley, when a Turkish force was about to finish off the 500,000 Armenians (mostly refugees as a result of the Genocide). The battle itself was called "Battle of Sardarapat" and it is the reason there is a country called Armenia today. quoting: The battle of http://www.answers.com/topic/sardarapat-1 - Sardarabad was a battle of http://www.answers.com/topic/caucasus-campaign - Caucasus Campaign of World War I that took place in the city of http://www.answers.com/topic/sardarapat-1 - Sardarabad , in May http://www.answers.com/topic/1918 - 1918 . In violation of the http://www.answers.com/topic/treaty-of-brest-litovsk - Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty with the http://www.answers.com/topic/union-of-soviet-socialist-republics - Soviet Union , http://www.answers.com/topic/ottoman-empire - Ottoman Empire troops under the 4th Army, which http://www.answers.com/topic/mustafa-kemal-atat-rk - Mustafa Kemal had commanded the same army between http://www.answers.com/topic/1916 - 1916 http://www.answers.com/topic/1917 - 1917 , crossed the border in May http://www.answers.com/topic/1918 - 1918 and attacked Alexandropol ( http://www.answers.com/topic/gyumri - Gyumri ). The Ottoman army intended to crush the First Republic of Armenia and seize http://www.answers.com/topic/kartvelian - Transcaucasia . Only a small area of Armenian territory remained unconquered by the Ottomans, and into that area hundreds of thousands of Armenian refugees had fled after the http://www.answers.com/topic/armenian-massacres - Armenian Genocide . The Ottoman Forces forces began a three-pronged attack in an
attempt to seize all that remained of Armenia. When Alexandropol fell,
the Turkish Army poured into the Ararat Valley the heart of http://www.answers.com/topic/armenia - Armenia . There was a major engagement at http://www.answers.com/topic/sardarapat-1 - Sardarabad - http://www.answers.com/topic/sardarapat-1 - - Sardarapat (now http://www.answers.com/topic/armavir - Armavir ) on May 22-26 http://www.answers.com/topic/1918 - 1918 , where the Ottoman Army was defeated and retreated. Two prongs of the Ottoman advance were aimed directly at http://www.answers.com/topic/yerevan - Yerevan , the capital of the First Republic. The Armenian forces were commanded by General Movses Silikian.
To halt the Ottoman approach, General Silikian formed a thousand-strong
force which held the Ottoman advance at Sardarabad, thus saving the
First Republic nation from complete annihilation. http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-sardarapat - http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-sardarapat you never provide evidence do you? you are incessantly writing opinions without any historical truth or evidence.
Which agencies? And please dont evade this question like you have done with a multitude of others. as for Armenia's future...all we can do is wait (you are no Nostradamus btw) ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 21:51
|
you do realise that Armenia and Georgia were also independent countries. Thus Enver's army was an invading force.
Invading force? invading where Azerbaycan? an already independant country who required millitary assistance, jeez whatever are you going to come up with next. You again fail to provide evidence of your rumbling of Russian and Armenian forces slaughtering Azeri population. In 1918-1920 during massive extermination 565,000 from 575,000 Azeris living the territory of the present-day Armenia were either killed or expelled. This figure is also confirmed in the book The population of the Soviet Armenia, 1831-1931 by Z. Korkodyan. Also note, that the massacres of Azeris in Azerbaijan itself, in Baku on March 31, 1918 when in just only three days 12,000 people were killed by joint dashnak-bolshevik troops, or in Shamakhy district, where the number of victims reached 7 thousand in April 1918, or in Kuba district, where the number of villages ruined comprised 122, and other massacres committed by the dashnaks in the rest of Azerbaijan is a subject of distinct detailed discussion. After dashnaks in 1920 the Turks (Azeris) living in the Soviet Armenia comprised not more than 10,000. A. RESULTS OF THE WORLD WAR I Population of Armenia in 1914 1,014,255 Population of Armenia in 1919 961,677 Natural population increase in 1914-19 74,155 Turks (Azeris) remaining in Armenia by 1919 200,000 Emigrants from Turkey 300,000 Population remaining in Kars and Surmali by 1919 59,843 Armenian and Yezidi Kurd population in Surmali 130,753 ? Overall 1,519,163 1,221,520 Losses 297,643 B. RESULTS OF THE DASHNAK POLICY Population 961,777 Population of Armenia in 1922 782,052 Number of expelled Turks-Azeri as a result of cleansing policy of the Dashnak government before 1919 200,000 Losses 429,858 Expelled Azeri Turks in 1920 60,000 Previous losses 297,643 Together 787,501 In another document the national composition is given district by district5. The table below was included in the letter from the Prime-Minister of Azerbaijan to the chairman of the Paris Peace Conference (August 16, 1919) and gives information about the ethnic composition of the Nakhichevan, Sharur-Daralegez, Surmaly and Erivan ditricts: ? Nakhichevan Sharur-Daralegez Surmali Erivan Azeris 62,5 72,3 68,0 60,2 Armenians 36,7 27,4 30,4 37,4 Other nationalities 0,8 0,4 1,6 2,4 You can also read about this 1. The massacres of 1905-1906 http://www.azerigenocide.org/hist/hist09.htm Or if you want some Internation reports Nagorno-Karabagh: The worlds forgotten genocide? Armenians seize lands, expel Azeris with Soviet complicity "Altogether, the Armenian hunger for ever more land led them to deport Azerbaijanis from certain areas during four different times in the 20th Century - in 1905, 1918-20, 1948-50, and in 1988. "In the 1988 deportation, more than 200,000 Azeris living in Armenia were uprooted from their homes, almost overnight. This last deportation was tantamount to ethnic cleansing - because afterwards there were no ethnic Azeris left anywhere in Armenia. To our great regret, this deportation took place under the Soviet regime, with the full armed support of the Soviet Red Army. Armenians stage Sumgayit killings with KGB help "Ethnic Armenians were deeply involved in arranging the events that happened in Sumgayit. And the involvement of the Soviet KGB cannot be denied. We Azeris later came to understand that these events were directly linked to Gorbachev and his policies. "Unfortunately, there were 26 Armenians killed in the events. We traced the backgrounds of those 26 victims. What we found later in KGB archives was that several years earlier those 26 people had refused to assist a clandestine Armenian group calling for the unification of Karabagh with Armenia. Armenians living in Azerbaijan sponsored that organization. "So the Armenians killed during the Sumgayit events were people who refused to cooperate with that clandestine organization. In this way, the people who stood behind the Sumgayit events were able to kill their fellow Armenians. http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/ciscentralasia/01/azerbaijan/nagornokarabagh.html If you had read anything not Turkish you would know that all the Armenian army was concentrated in the Ararat valley Oh so now you actually admit that the Armenians had armies and were fighting the Turks in a war, the war that they lost. Now if we get back to the main topic. One million refugees still languish in desperate conditions "Thus, today in total we have about a million refugees and internally displaced people. There were over 200,000 people expelled from Armenia, about 40,000 ethnic Azeris displaced from Nagorno-Karabagh, and 700,000 people uprooted from the adjoining districts. Besides that, we also had an influx of 50,000 Iskan Turks expelled from Central Asia. "All these people are dispersed over 58 districts of Azerbaijan in some 1600 camps and areas: 53,000 are living in tents. 12,000 of them were placed in railway boxcars. 30,000 are placed in various farms and other types of rural construction, some in dugouts used previously used for winter animal shelter. 30,000 of them were placed in various educational facilities, such as schools, kindergartens. 100,000 of the refugees and internally displaced people (IDPs) are staying in unfinished, incomplete residential premises. Another 100,000 are placed in dormitories, and the remainder are dispersed in very poor living conditions. "Certainly, there was international assistance rendered to Azerbaijan as these events took place. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees was one of the first such organizations to arrive here, and then came the World Food Program. There was a very serious involvement of a number of non-governmental organizations from the US, Europe, Arab countries and Turkey. 
Humanitarian aid decreasing "Currently, there are 81 humanitarian organizations operating in Azerbaijan. Eleven of these are national, and 70 international. But from 1993 to 1995, the number of these organizations was 105. "In 1994, these organizations provided $160 million; by contrast, the amount of assistance they provided last year was a mere $40 million. "There is only one reason for this - a political solution to this conflict has been prolonged. Of course, the above organizations cannot function here forever, so there is nothing to blame them for. But, frankly speaking, the government of Azerbaijan is not able to replace this assistance. The assistance to refugees and IDPs from the government budget this year is around $45 million. A part of this $45 million provides a stipend of about $5 per refugee per month for bread. Apart from this, we also enacted a law called "Social Protection of the Refugees and IDPs. " According to that decree, these people are not charged for electricity, power, water supply, gas, communications, transportation, education, or health care; and they are exempt from all forms of taxation. The cost to government to cover these expenses amounts to approximately $200 million annually. Thus, our governments direct and indirect assistance totals approximately $245 million a year. This is in addition to the $40 million provided by the outside humanitarian organizations. "Returning to the issue of 907, since 1993 the US government has been providing financial assistance to Armenia at the rate of about $100 million a year. On the one hand we are dealing with aggression here why is the aggressor entitled to humanitarian assistance from the US State Department? "On the other hand, Azerbaijan is the victim here: we are the nation which has had its lands occupied. We are the country that has about a million refugees and IDPs. And we are the party that has been totally deprived of any kind of direct assistance. Isnt that paradoxical? "We have tried to show members of the Congress who support Armenia the reality of the Azeri refugees. I understand that in the US there are certain political dependencies when you get elected, and once youre elected you cant forget those who helped you win office. "But I say to these members of Congress: You can represent someone, thats up to you. But you can also see some real truths in our refugee camps. By denying the realities, you are really not serving the Congress, and you undermine the image of America, the most democratic country in the world. The United States plays a leading role in all the issues that are concerned with the protection of human rights. Arent these one million refugees and IDPs human beings? Dont they have human rights too? Negotiated solution sought "Since 1993 there have been efforts made to solve the problem in a political way, within the framework of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Basically, these involve Russia, the US and France - the so-called Minsk Group. We can only note with regret that after many years of efforts, there have been no tangible results. The Minsk Group is the only body charged with the search to find a political solution to this problem. No one else is involved. The worldwide Armenian Diaspora which actually created this situation consists of people who have carved out entire political careers from this tragic issue. Naturally, they will continue their best efforts to preserve the status quo, and to impede the development of any solution, no matter how tragic for the people of Azerbaijan. Results of Armenian Aggression against Azerbaijan 25,000 killed 5,000 crippled 700,000 displaced 331,000 women 235,000 children 7,966 fatherless families 5,316 orphans 10 districts affected by fighting Destroyed: 9 towns 730 villages and settlements 102,000 houses 7,000 public buildings 693 schools 191 hospitals 160 bridges 166 reservoirs 300 kilometers of roads 2,300 kilometers of water pipelines 15,000 kilometers of power lines $40 Billion total damage When will Armenia apologise for its crimes and pay compensation for the suffering it has caused. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 22:20
|
http://www.azerigenocide.org/hist/hist09.htm you consider this an objective source? you have got to be kidding me... http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/ciscentralasia/01/azerbaijan/nagornokarabagh.html and this? it is nothing more but a propaganda webpage...and there are so many of those...Ill give you one more, enjoy! http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/ - - www.tallarmeniantale.com/ there is no point for me to argue with you bulldog, you are so seriously blinded by your life for anything Turkish that you see nothing else. what did I say about this thread in the beginning bg? no one gives a damn except Armenians and Turks (and Turks who think they are British)...and like others, this will lead to a flame war. ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 00:29
I am sorry but you are wrong.
I give a damn.
An interesting and hot topic.
Thanks for sharing.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 04:22
(and Turks who think they are British).
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Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 08:18
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http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/history/en/getHistory.cgi?3=1==Nagorno%20Karabakh==1=3=AAA - Few maps of Nagorni(Mountainous) Karabakh: I think, that the current borders are better than these before the war, and don`t need to be changed:   http://www.tourismarmenia.ru/home/map/hayastan-big.jpg">  ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 09:00
thats good! but I am afraid you are in the minority ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 09:33
|
thats good! but I am afraid you are in the minority
Who on Earth gives you the right to claim who is and isn't in the minority have you travelled round the world and asked everyone in the world personally 
Azerigenocide.org is propoganda? damn you have problems, if you can proove which parts are exaggerations and lies go ahead, untill then it has proof while you don't Also, there are many reports by non-Azerbaycan parties. http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/ciscentralasia/01/azerbaijan/nagornokarabagh.html Well they say pictures talk louder than words, well Video evidence speaks even louder, there is no need to even debate with extremist Armenians who deny their crimes, their is video evidence to proove it. Warning, not for the feignt hearted! http://www.khojaly.net/video.html http://www.imprescriptible.us/videos/1.zip http://www.chingizmustafayev.com/video_arxiv.php http://www.khojaly.org.az:8101/video.html http://scripts.cgispy.com/downloads/track....ip&user=khojaly Thomas Goltz saw the devastation of the ethnic cleansing of Khodjali by the Armenian forces. 
Customer Reviews of the Day Great for anyone interested in Caucasus., August 31, 1999 Reviewer: Arthur Roussel, aroussel@na.cokecce.com from Tampa, Florida In contrast to the biased racist literature spread by Armenian propaganda machine, Thomas Goltz's book stands out in its objectivity. As an American who lived long time in both Azerbaijan and Armenia, I can confirm that this book describes the real events and history behind the Nagorny Karabakh conflict without any distortion. The author skillfully unmasks the atrocities committed by Armenian military against civilian Azerbaijani population of Karabakh. He also mentions how these crimes were hidden from the world and Armenia was pictured as a "victim" while Armenian army gradually occupied Azerbaijani land, brutally killing and destroying everything on its way. Another interesting point in the book is the historical aspect. Thomas Goltz reveals the classical example of "rewriting" history. That is how Armenian "historians" created myth of "Great Armenia" and used it to "inspire" Armenian youth into the war against their neighbors. That is similar to what Serbian government tried to do in Kosova. The only difference is that here, in Karabakh, Armenian so-called "patriots" succeeded in ethnic cleansing and managed to mislead the world community. 
25,000 killed 5,000 crippled 700,000 displaced 331,000 women 235,000 children 7,966 fatherless families 5,316 orphans 10 districts affected by fighting Destroyed: 9 towns 730 villages and settlements 102,000 houses 7,000 public buildings 693 schools 191 hospitals 160 bridges 166 reservoirs 300 kilometers of roads 2,300 kilometers of water pipelines 15,000 kilometers of power lines $40 Billion total damage Armenia has to come to terms with its crimes over the last century. Today it Illegally occupyes 20% of Azerbaycan land, has slaughtered tens of thousands of its people, injured many more and caused 1 million refugees plus $40 billion in damage. More info can be found here http://www.human.az/ http://www.human.gov.az/?sehife=etrafli&dil=en&sid=MTA0OTA5MTA4MTIzMDU0OQ== ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 10:40
|
Look, there is no point for me to argue with you. You can believe whatever you want to believe... but you are still making a mockery out of yourself when claiming that 613 Azeries dead in Khojali is a Genocide and more than a million Armenian deaths is not. And for the last time, Azeri websites dont qualify as proof...(I can spread propaganda; however I choose not to...shall I?)
what the hell? Who on Earth gives you the right to tell me what to say and what not to say in a public forum? ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 10:55
What did you mean by calling me a minority? Did you mean that my opinion does not count? Maybe you meant that you hope more people give a damn about what is going on there? BTW, we do not believe everything we heard, read; especially if the source is web. |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 11:05
EXACTLY!
AND THIS IS VERY DISGUSTING... ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 12:08
well, because you are the first American who I have talked to, who is interested in Nagorno-Karabakh. Most, sorry, all of my American friends dont care for what goes on there, and I dont blame them. And your opinion of course does count.
Yup, I really do hope more people to give a damn about whats going on there. But still, me hoping and reality sadly to say are quite different. And I am assuming you can find better sources, than whatever propaganda trash bulldog has posted here. ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 12:33
About the book: have you read it? (sorry for silly question). Well I have, and it is sitting right next to me as I write this. First of all I dont see how a book can be taken seriously if the author has visited only one of the warring parties (Azerbaijan), stemming from this, an objective account on the war would be hard to write, no? By the way, that tricolored map was given to the author by the Azerbaijan Ministry of Foreign Affairs; so much for the integrity of writers... Nevertheless, there are some segments in the book that will disturb you. For example, in many instances he mentioned the Armenian Genocide, and no he doesnt call it "Falsified Genocide" or "so-called Genocide" or the "Armenian hoax" he called it what it is: a Genocide. Now what do you think of the book? ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 13:25
Thank you. It is nice to hear that.
I do not care about maps. What I do care about is what happened there. Did he really witness the war crimes mentioned in this thread? I am surfing through web resources about him, and I read very disturbing things claimed to be witnessed by him. The things I read made me feel sick about humans. You said you read the book. Why don't you share with us what is written there in terms of the events being discussed here(Karabakh, war crimes, etc...). BTW, I am here to learn about the Karabakh. Please both parties carry your private discussions else where. I found the book on amazon (Only 5 left in stock). It is around $30 if anybody interested about the subject. Edit: html codes get screwed in this forum
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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 13:50
|
What would you like to know?
he did not witness the war crimes (both by Armenians and Azeries) because he was not at the battle zones. However he visited the battle zones and saw the bodies. The book goes deeper into the political life of Azerbaijan during those times than about actual Nagorno Karabakh itself. According to him; The Azeri government claimed that on the days of the Khojali massacre (UN has not recognized if the massacre has been carried out by Armenians or Azeries) , an Armenian attack failed miserably and only two Azeri soldiers died. The author states that he had trouble getting through the "Azeri lies" (direct quote) and propaganda, to tell of the bodies he saw when passing through, and that the attention of media came weeks later. ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 14:24
Similiar findings from web resources:
"The government and press in Baku didn't exactly assist our efforts to get the story out. While we had been off in Aghdam trying to break the news, the presidential spokesman was claiming that Khojali's feisty defenders had beaten back an Armenian attack and that the Azeris had suffered only two casualties. They were pitching it as just an ordinary night in Mountainous Karabakh. We knew differently, but it was the three of us against the Azerbaijani State propaganda machine. "
There are entries in web , claiming the stories are witnessed by him. I like to know if he is telling the same stories in his book.
Stories like cold blood, violently murdered children, women.
For instance, some of the claimed to be true witnessed events:
"Scores, hundreds, possibly even a thousand had been slaughtered in a turkey-shoot of civilians and their handful of defenders. Aside from counting every corpse, there was no way to tell how many had died. Most of the bodies remained inaccessible, in the no-man's land between the lines that had become a killing zone and a picnic for crows."
and yet another one: "The helicopter started to descend and the co pilot cried: Look! There are women and children over there. I saw about two hundred corpses scattered down- the hillside. Armed men were walking among them. Then we flew there trying to pick up corpses. A Militia captain who I cant remember his name was with us. He found his 4-year-old son with crashed skull and he went out of his mind. The other child that we had managed to pick up before they started shooting had his head cut off. I saw mutilated bodies of women, children, and old -age people everywhere " Is the book pointing such events ?
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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 16:08
|
"The government and press in Baku didn't exactly assist our efforts to get the story out. While we had been off in Aghdam trying to break the news, the presidential spokesman was claiming that Khojali's feisty defenders had beaten back an Armenian attack and that the Azeris had suffered only two casualties. They were pitching it as just an ordinary night in Mountainous Karabakh. We knew differently, but it was the three of us against the Azerbaijani State propaganda machine. "
yes, that quote is exactly from the book, (page 125) in the version I have. Scores, hundreds, possibly even a thousand had been slaughtered in a turkey-shoot of civilians and their handful of defenders. Aside from counting every corpse, there was no way to tell how many had died. Most of the bodies remained inaccessible, in the no-man's land between the lines that had become a killing zone and a picnic for crows." what is your web source for this quote, and the two other quotes, I cant find them in the book. As I have said, the book is biased. Since it almost only talks of only Azeri politics, Azeri victims and etc... ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 16:15
|
A book which I found to be as objective as possible is this:
Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War by Thomas DeWall. Who unlike the author of Azerbaijan Diary (an objective title isnt it?) has spent an extensive amount of time in both, Armenia and Azerbaijan (as well as Turkey and Russia). It also doesnt put the emphasis on Azeri victims, but treats each people (Azeries and Armenians) equally, as victims of war. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0814719457/sr=8-1/qid=1152994212/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3417172-4548922?ie=UTF8 ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 16:18
|
Thomas Goltz is not a Turk, he was actually there the mass-ethnic cleansing was going on, he is a well known recognised journalist. What now, your saying that Goltz is "propoganda" a "lier" just because he doesn't paint the Armenians as lovely angels and Turks as evil monsters.
These views of Mamikon are the by=product of the Armenian cult of hatred and racism against Turks. claiming that 613 Azeries dead in Khojali is a Genocide and more than a million Armenian deaths is not. How typical, create an alternate version of events and think you can get away with it because others may not know about it. The total death toll in Khodjali is still unknown, new mass graves keep being found, infact from prior to that time, recently there was an investigation into 3,000 mountain Jews who were massacred by Armenian forces. Yevda Abramov: "Mass killings of Jews in Azerbaijan by Armenian forces" http://www.today.az/news/society/26185.html "More than 3000 Mountain Jews were killed by Armenians during 1918-1919" http://www.today.az/news/politics/25410.html In addition, 25,000 people were killed in Azerbaycan by Armenians. Also, just because Armenia lost people in a war does not give them the right to go around slaughtering others and then turn round and say, you can't complain because Armenians were killed 100 years ago. What a perverse, sick mentallity that it. In the years leading up to WW1 the descendants of todays Turkey lost 5 million people and were left with 6 million refugees. According to your logic they have the right to kill who they like because they were suffering. Thomas Goltz did see massacres and war-crimes by Armenians. It was there in the foothills of the mountains even within sight of safety, that the greatest horror awaited them - a gauntlet of lead and fire. "They just kept shooting and shooting and shooting," sobbed a woman named Raisa Aslanova. She said her husband and son-in-law were killed right in front of her eyes. Her daughter was still missing. Scores, hundreds, possibly even a thousand had been slaughtered in a turkey-shoot of civilians. Aside from counting every corpse, there was no way to tell how many had died. Most of the bodies remained inaccessible, in the no-man's land between the lines that had become a killing zone and a picnic for crows. One thousand slaughtered in a single night? It seemed impossible. But when we began cross-referencing, the wild claims about the extent of the killing began to look all too true. The local religious leader in Aghdam, Imam Sadigh Sadighov, broke down in tears as he tallied the names of the registered dead on an abacus. There were 677 that day, but the number did not include those missing and presumed dead, nor those victims whose entire families had been wiped out and thus had no one to register them. The number 677 represented only the number of confirmed dead by the survivors who had managed to reach Aghdam and were physically able to fulfill, however imperfectly, the Muslim practice of burying the dead within 24 hours. Elif Kaban of Reuters was stunned into giddiness. My wife, Hijran, was numb. Photographer Oleg Litvin fell into a catatonic state and would only shoot pictures when I pushed him in front of the subject: corpses, graves, and the wailing women who were gouging their cheeks with their nails. The job required stomach. Now was the time to work - to document and report: a massacre had occurred, and the world had to know about it. We scoured the town, stopping repeatedly at the hospital, the morgue and the ever-growing graveyards. We moved out to the edges of the defensive perimeter to meet the straggling survivors stumbling in. Then we would rush back to the hospital to check on those recently admitted who had been wounded. Then back to the morgue to witness truckloads of bodies being brought in for identification and ritual washing before burial. I searched for familiar faces and thought I saw some but could not be sure. One corpse was identified as a young veterinarian who had been shot through the eyes at point-blank range. I tried to remember if I had ever met him, but could never be sure. Other bodies, stiffened by rigor mortis, seemed to speak of execution: with their arms thrown up as if in permanent surrender. A number of heads lacked hair, as if the corpses had been scalped. It was not a pretty day. Towards evening, we returned to the government guesthouse in the middle of town searching for a telephone. There we met an exhausted Tamerlan Garayev. A native of Aghdam, the Deputy Speaker of Parliament was one of the few government officials of any sort that I found there. Tamerlan was interrogating two Turkmen deserters from the Stepanakert-based 366th Motorized Infantry Brigade of the Russian Interior Ministry forces that had descended on Khojali the week before. The last missing link of the tragedy suddenly fit into place: not only had the doomed town been assaulted by the Armenians, but the Russians had been undeniably involved as well. "Talk, talk!" Tamerlan demanded, as the two men stared at us. "We ran away because the Armenian and Russian officers were beating us because we were Muslims," one of the men, named Agha Mohammad Mutif, explained. "We just wanted to return home to Turkmenistan." "Then what happened?" Tamerlan wanted to know. "Then they attacked the town," the other explained. "We recognized vehicles from our unit." The two had tried to flee along with everyone else in town and were helping a group of women and children escape through the mountains when they were discovered by the Armenians and the 366th. "They opened fire and at least twelve men in our group were killed," Mutif recounted. "After that, we just ran and ran." Could such a thing have really happened: a Russian-backed assault by Armenians on an Azeri town, which resulted in up to 1,000 dead? This was news. But as we started to file our stories, we became aware of something very strange. No one seemed interested in the story. Apparently, the idea that the roles of the good guys had been reversed was too much: Armenians slaughtering Azeris? "You're suggesting that more people died in this single attack in Karabakh than the total number that we have reported killed over the past four years?" observed BBC's Moscow correspondent when I tipped him on the bloodbath. "That's impossible," he replied. "Take a look at Reuters!" "There's nothing on the wire." Indeed, there wasn't. Although Elif Kaban had been churning out copy on her portable Telex, nothing was appearing on the wires. Either someone was spiking her copy, or was rolling it into a larger, anodyne regional report of "conflicting allegations". If you want to read other reports The Times, 2 March 1992 Corpses Litter Hills In Karabakh (Anatol Lieven Comes Under Fire While Flying To Investigate The Mass Killings Of Refugees By Armenian Troops) As we swooped low over the snow-covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as they ran. An Azerbaijani film of the places we flew over, shown to journalists afterwards, showed dozens of corpses lying in various parts of the hills. As many As 1000 have died in a mass killings of Azerbaijani's fleeing from the town of Khodjaly, seized by Armenians last week. A further 4,000 are believed to be wounded, frozen to death or missing. The civilian helicopters job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings. The civilian helicopter picked up four corpses, and it was during this and a previous mission that an Azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several dozen bodies on the hillsides. Back at the airfield in Agdam, we took a look at the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up. Two old men a small girl were covered with blood, their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis. They had been shot. Boston Sunday Globe 21 November1993 by Jon Auerbach Globe Correspondent CHAKHARLI, AzerbaijanThe truckloads of scared and lost chilthen, the sobbing mothers, the stench of sickness and the sea of blank faces in this mud-covered refugee camp obscure the deeper issue of why tens of thousands of Azeris have fled here. What we see now is a systematic destruction of every village in their way, said one senior US official. Its one of the most disgusting things weve seen. Its vandalism, the US official said. The idea that there is an aggressive intent in a sound conclusion. The United Nations estimates that thre are more than 1 million refugees in Azerbaijan, roughly one seventh of the former Soviet republics entire population. Thousands who fled to neighboring Iran are being slowly repatriated to refugee camps already bursting at the seams. But because of the Karabakh Armenians policy of burning villages, relief organizations say there is no hope that the Azeris could return home anytime soon. At Chakharli, about 10 miles from Iran, more than 10,000 refugees are crammed into a makeshift tent city. Aziz Azizova, 33, arrived in the Iranian run camp about three weeks ago, after she and her five children were forced to flee their home in the village of Buik-Merjan. I left my village with nothing, not even my shoes, she said. You see how our children are living? Some of them are living right in the mud. Azizova, like thousands of others, escaped by fleeing across the Arax River into neighboring Iran. The UN estimates that around 300 Azeris, mainly women and children, drowned in the rivers currents. One of the people who did make it across was Samaz Mamedova, a 40-year-old accountant. Sitting with friends in tent No. 566 on a recent day, Mamedova explained how the Armenians seized her village in less than a half hour, forcing the entire population toward the river in a chaotic scramble for survival. Armenia will have to answer to its crimes and genocide in the region, they ethnically cleansed parts of Karabag and slaughtered tens of thousands of people. Its about time Armenia owns up and stops its illegal occupations and pays compensation to the suffering. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 16:21
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Thanks for giving your time for cross checking.
I do not want to steal your time anymore about it since I bought the book. I have to wait a week for delivery I guess.
It is from the web. I didn't bookmark it since I do not trust any information directly coming from the internet resources.
Do you know any publications about the subject that are not biased ?
And when I say not biased, I mean according to you ?
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Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 16:38
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to Scorpius
well...I would have advised you to buy "Black Garden", the reasons for which I gave you above, but its your decision (its also cheaper). The quote in my signature is from that book actually. I can also give you a multitude of Armenian propaganda (like bulldog here has done for Azeries) but I see no point of polluting this thread with senseless information as he has done. @ bulldog Once again bulldog, quoting an Azeri source about Armenians is not a really intelligent decision... you still havent answered my question (as always):Thomas Goltz (I am aware he is not a Turk) mentions the Armenian Genocide, and calls it a Genocide. Do you now believe that what happened to the Armenians in 1915 is a Genocide? Or are you just going to pick information from a book that only fall with your take on events. Jews killed by Armenians? classical..before it was Armenians killed Turks, then Armenians killed Kurds, then Armenians killed Circassians and now Armenians kill Jews? whats next? The number of deaths in Khojali is known, and it is 613. Once again, you believe that 613 deaths of Azeries qualifies as Genocide and a million Armenians deaths does not? By the way, nice copy and paste job. Your whole italicized post about Goltz's account of events can be found in this Azeri site: http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai101_folder/101_articles/101_goltz_article.html ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:21
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Jews killed by Armenians?
The current investigations been carried out with Jewish groups are uncovering more and more evidence of the slaughter of Jews by Armenians. Anti-semtism has always been a problem among Armenian communities, it mainly stems from the teaching of the Church coupled together with Blood Libels and stories like Jews eat little children and other such nonsense which was documented and stopped in Ottoman times. Today Armenia is one of the few countries left who regard Nazi Generals as National Hero's, General Drastamat Kanayan was a Nazi General and a total butcher yet today he's some kind of great guy in Armenia which is wrong. What has this got to do with Turkey? you think that because Armenians lost a war that it gives them the right to go around slaughtering people and then telling them, hey guess what we don't care because more of our people died and our deaths are worth more than your cheap blood. There is no evidence that 1 million were killed, oh but then some say 1.5 and then even 2.5, jeez stick with a figure you inflate and deflate it like a baloon. Plus WW1 ended nearly 100 years ago, you cannot blame anyone living today of your fables. Its an awfull picture your drawing up Mamikon. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:26
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Thanks, I read the reviews. The book seems to approach to the problem from different angles. Roots, politics, geography, etc.. Seems to be a good reading.
Jews killed by Armenians? classical..before it was Armenians killed Turks, then Armenians killed Kurds, then Armenians killed Circassians and now Armenians kill Jews? whats next? mamikon there are people who believe Armenians killed Jews during Hitler's regime. I remember once a friend of mine told me that it was the Armenians who made Hitler believe in such a ridiculous idea of being pure and superior as a race. If I am not wrong, Hitler believed that Armenians and Germans are the Aryans and they both belong to a superior race. At that time my friend (who is a Jew ) was talking about some Armenian elite forces in Hitler's army doing the dirty jobs for him. And I am telling you what an individual soul believes. Do not get me wrong and I mean No offense to Armenian people or anybody else. As one of my professor said once, people kill for their beliefs. It is not important what they believe is logical, correct or wrong (with respect to universal values or the facts). I find his comment very real.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:33
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Armenian Nazi General Drastamat Kanayan is hardly a secret, on Nationalist and Racist Armenian sites they adore their Aryan Nazi General. He has a large monument in Armenia. The Dashneks anti-semitism is no secret either. They blame and make up alot of stories about Jews, infact its not an unusual site to see a Turkish flag being burned with the star being the Jewish Star.
p.s Mamikon, what about the suffering of people in Turkey, 5 million of their descendants killed in the years leading up to WW1 and 6 million refugees. Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0878500944/002-9942460-8856031?v=glance&n=283155 Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922 by Justin McCarthy Princeton, N.J.: Darwin, 1995. 368 pp. $35 Middle East Quarterly June 1996 Reviewed by Daniel Pipes McCarthy has unearthed a horrifying and extremely important fact: that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe's largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of western Europe had been diminished or destroyed." His study minutely reviews the regions and wars, pulling information from foreign and Ottoman sources to produce a compelling account. Beyond the tragedy involved, this pattern of death and exile has a profound historical importance. To take just three matters that the author raises: It puts into perspective the deportation of Armenians in 1915 and turns this from an act of hatred into one motivated by fear (had the Armenians, with Russian support, rebelled, Ottoman Muslims could have expected to be slaughtered). Also, this legacy explains the modest and circumspect foreign policy pursued by Atatrk; "as a land of recent refugee in-migration and massive mortality," his country was ready not to assert itself but to reform itself. Lastly, the massive immigrations to Anatolia mean that modern Turkey is (like France) a land of migrants; McCarthy estimates that one-fifth of the population descends from nineteenth-century refugees. This helps understand the country's acute sensitivity to current problems in Bosnia and Azerbaijan. Don't you accept this as a genocide Mamikon? 5 million killed 6 million uprooted. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:43
Actually, the Holocaust was supposed to incorporate Armenians also. And Hitler by no means liked Armenians. The only reason Armenians were not included in the Holocaust was because of Garegin Njdeh, (who is considered a hero in Armenia). He was arrested when he came back to USSR in 1944, on charges of colloborating with Germans (and thus saving Armenians who resided in Germany and France). bulldog, whats your source about Drastamat Kanayan. He was an Armenian hero, during WWI...did his best to save the remaining Armenian population during the Armenian Genocide ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:47
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5 million Turks killed by Armenians and 6 million refugees? Are you out of your mind. Armenia was an ottoman province. Every one of your claims is more absurd then the last...
And why do you keep posting that same book over and over and over again. I doubt if you read it... you again failed to answer any question I had for you throughout the last page ------------- |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 17:55
BTW, Suleiman The Law Giver (aka: The Magnificent) did that.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:07
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Nobody said it was purely Armenians doing the killing but on the Eastern front, after the Russians occupied the Caucauses, the Armenians left in the now Russian terrortories wer the only Loyal nation and therefore used by the Russians to do their dirty business.
About General Dro Why are you denying it Mamikon? many Armenians are proud of this fact, just because you don't like the Nazi's doesn't mean that there are a certain amount who do appease with the Aryan ideals. There are infact Aryan extreme parties in Armenia are there not. General Dro is on the record Derounian says that "Greece was honeycombed with Armenians serving as Nazi spies." [1] Many Nazi Armenians were arrested by the British and sentenced by the Greek government as collaborators in espionage.[2] In Rumania many Nazi Armenians were found in Antonescu's Iron Guard during arrest of members after the war. Bulgaria was the operational base of Tzeghagrons-founder Garagin Nezhdeh, who commanded a network of espionage from there. [1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 20. [2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150. In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, was working closely with the German Secret Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia made him an invaluable source for the Germans.[1] [1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen, ibid., p. 84 Numerous articles in major newspapers (London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history. Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call "crisis control" or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant.[1] [1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _The Plotters_ E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182. The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4] [1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137. [2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle, see _Documents 3 and 4._ [3] Georg Tessin, _Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,_ (Frankfurt am Main 1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS. [4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119. On 30 december 1941 an Armenian batallion was established by a decision of the Wehrmacht, which was known as the Armenian 812th Battalion. It was commanded by Nazi General General Drastamat Kanayan also known as Dro, and was made up of committed recruits, and a number of Armenians from the prisoners of war taken by the Nazis in their invasion towards the East. In the initial period the total number was 8000; this number later grew to over 20,000. The 812th Batallion was operational in the Crimea and the North Caucasus. One year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German minister of the occupied areas. The Council president was Professor Ardasher Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Guilkhandanian and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until thje end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenian, edited by Viken Shantn (the son of Levon) who also broadcasted on Radio Berlin. Hence it was important to prove to the Nazis that the Armenians were Aryans. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seem to have achieved this. In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._ [1] Joachim Hoffmann, _Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer_ (Verlag Rombach Freiburg 1976), p. 172. That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher', Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, and Nezhdeh sided with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service. [1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900 Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119. [2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 19. Prof-Atayov Yet another historical fact: a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten, concealed, and wiped from memory the fact of Armenian-Nazi collaboration. A magazine called Mitteilungsblatt der Deutsch-Armenischen Gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration. The magazine was first published in Berlin in 1938 during Nazi rule of Germany and continued publication until the end of 1944. Even the name of the magazine, which implies a declaration of Armenian-Nazi cooperation, is attention-getting. This magazine, every issue of which proves the collaboration, is historically important as documentary evidence. It is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind. To give specific examples of actions; In May 1935 the Armenians of Bucharest attacked the Jews of that city, while the Greeks of Salonika attacked the Jews in the August of the same year. During World War II, Armenian volunteers, under the wings of Hitler's Germany, were used in rounding up Jews and other ''undesirables'' destined for the Nazi concentration camps. The Armenians also published a German-language magazine, with fascist and anti-Semitic tendencies, supporting Nazi doctrines directed to the extermination of 'inferior' races [1]. This is confirmed by Armenophile Christopher J. Walker, who admits that the Armenians collaborated with the Nazis. According to him, members of the Dashnak Party, then living in the occupied areas, including a number of prominent persons, entertained pro-Axis sympathies. A report in an American magazine went so far as to claim that the Nazis had picked on the Dashnaktsutiun to do fifth-column work, promising the party an autonomous state for its cooperation. Walker goes on to claim that relations between the Nazis and the Dashnaks living in the occupied areas were close and active. On 30 December 1941 an Armenian battalion was formed by a decision of the Army Command (Wehrmacht), known as the 'Armenian 812th Battalion'. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of a small number of committed recruits, and a larger number of Armenians. Early on, the total number of recruits was 8,000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812th Battalion was operational in Crimea and the North Caucasus. (These are the dates and numbers given by Walker). A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German Minister of the occupied areas. The Council's president was Professor Ardashes Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Giulkhandanian, and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until the end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenien, edited by Viken Shant (the son of Levon), who also broadcast on Radio Berlin. The whole idea was to prove to the Germans that the Armenians were 'Aryans'. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach, they seemed to have achieved this as the Nazis did not persecute the Armenians in the occupied lands [2]. "Members of the Dashnak party living in the occupied areas, including a number of names famous from the period of the republic, adopted a pro-Nazi stance." [2] [1] Turkkaya Ataov: Armenian Extermination of the Jews and Muslims, 1984, p. 91. [2] C.J. Walker: _Armenia_ London, 1980, pp. 356-8. [3] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), _Cairo to Damascus_ Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1951, p. 438. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Scorpius
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:18
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I guess readers would be happier if you guys stop taking things personal and begin presenting your knowledge only Thanks. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:25
Since you are not giving the source, I will give. http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/Nazi-Collaboration.htm
what exactly can you gain from posting information from that site...everyone who is familiar with it, knows that its trash. anyway, this discussion is getting nowhere (like all others about this topic) disco out... ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:41
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Mamikon attack the material not the messenger
The sources are verified and researched. If the information was taken and posted on another site it would be used because its backed up with sources. In other words, the guy isn't making it up, he/she has researched the sources. If you can proove the sources wrong go ahead. 
The emphatic procession spread along the streets of the downtown. Members of the youth wing of ARFD (Armenian Revolutionary Federation Dashnaktsutyun) burned up publicly the Turkish flag at the Matenadaran (depository of ancient manuscripts M. D.) and with torches lit by its fire made for the Tsiternakaberd (site of the monument dedicated to the Armenian Genocide). http://www.hahr.am/english/open/hydesem.htm NEW BOOK CLAIMS JEWS AND TURKS ARE THE GREATEST ENEMIES OF ARMENIANS. A book, titled "National System," published in Yerevan identifies Jews and Turks as the greatest enemies of Armenians and "the carriers of evil in a most concentrated and aggressive form." Written by Romen Yepiskoposyan and printed in Armenian and Russian, the book denies the existence of gas chambers and calls the Holocaust "the greatest falsification of the twentieth century." The head of Armenia's Jewish community, Mrs. Rimma Varzhapetyan, attended the presentation of the book on February 8 in the building of the Union of Writers of Armenia. When she introduced herself, people in the audience shouted that Jews were guilty of the Armenian genocide in 1915. 
National System by Romen Yepiskoposyanis a book published and on sale in Armenia which identifies Jews and Turks as the leading enemies of the Armenian nation. According to the National System the Holocaust is a myth, which was created by the Zionists. The leader of Armenian Jewry at the 9 February gathering said, they are going to meet with Armenian President about the rising anti-Semitism in Armenia, yet the officials made no statement about the book and the anti-Semitic movements in the country. Antisemitic Book Presented in Armenia; Jewish Leader Heckled Yerevan, a book entitled National System by Romen Yepiskoposyan, printed in Armenian and Russian, was presented at the Union of Writers of Armenia, according to Artak Varzhapetyan, head of international relations at the Jewish Community of Armenia. The author of the book identifies Jews and Turks as the No. 1 enemies of Armenians, writing that: In the contemporary world there are two nations that are the carriers of evil of the most concentrated and aggressive type. These are the Jews the nation-destroyer with a mission of destruction and decomposition, and the Turks the nation-killer with a mission of devastation and crushing. A section in the book entitled The Greatest Falsification of the 20th Century denies the Holocaust, claiming that it is a myth created by Zionists to discredit Arians.: The greatest falsification in human history is the myth of Holocaust. no one was killed in gas chambers. There were no gas chambers. A speaker at the event called for the book to be distributed in schools in order to develop a national idea and understanding of history. The President of the Jewish Community of ArmeniaMrs. Rimma Varzhapetyanwas at the presentation, and when she introduced herself to the audience, many people in attendance shouted that Jews are to blame for the Armenian genocide of 1916 in Turkey and that they are enemies. Mrs. Varzhapetyan responded that the book is totally absurd and a falsification of historical and contemporary facts. She sharply reminded the audience how many things Jews and especially she herself have done for Armeniathe answer from the audience was that there are some good Jews. Mr. Varzhapetyan told UCSJ that: In the beginning of next week we, the Jewish Community of Armenia, are going to meet the President of the Republic of Armenia to ask for a reaction against such actions. http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/022002Armen.shtml NEW BOOK CLAIMS JEWS AND TURKS ARE THE GREATEST ENEMIES OF ARMENIANS. A book, titled "National System," published in Yerevan identifies Jews and Turks as the greatest enemies of Armenians and "the carriers of evil in a most concentrated and aggressive form." Written by Romen Yepiskoposyan and printed in Armenian and Russian, the book denies the existence of gas chambers and calls the Holocaust "the greatest falsification of the twentieth century." The head of Armenia's Jewish community, Mrs. Rimma Varzhapetyan, attended the presentation of the book on February 8 in the building of the Union of Writers of Armenia. When she introduced herself, people in the audience shouted that Jews were guilty of the Armenian genocide in 1915. The Armenian-Nazi Collaboration in WW II Ayhan Ozer To validate a spurious genocide allegations, the Armenians curry favor with the Jewish people, and manipulate the Holocaust tragedy to gain some undeserved recognition from this uniquely Jewish experience. Historical evidences point to a devious Armenian collusion with Hitler to exterminate the Jews during WW II. Today, no matter how much the Armenians try to conceal this heinous episode from the public knowledge the Armenian conspiracy with Hitler is in the history books-- indelibly. Soon it will be in the public conscience too. In early 1930s, when Hitler ascended to power, he began cultivating the Armenians to use their long-standing and strong anti-semitic feelings in his plans and policy. The Armenians, through their publications, radio broadcasts and meetings supported and cheered the Nazis on their attacks on Jews. Alfred Rosenberg, who was to become later Hitler's Minister of the Occupied Territories, declared that the Armenians were Indo-European, or Aryans, which honored them and put them in the same league with the Nazis. In Hitler's foreign policy the Armenians fitted very nicely too. Hitler's future invasion plans of Russia provided a golden opportunity for the Armenians to liberate what they considered to be "Historic Armenia" from the Soviet as well as the Turkish rule. The short-lived Armenian Republic established in 1918 in the southern Caucasus by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (TheDashnaks) was conquered by the Russian Bolsheviks in 1920, and ceased to exist. This time, the Dashnaks saw a good opportunity in the collaboration with the Nazis to regain those territories. To that end, on December 30, 1941 they formed a battalion of 8,000-strong known as the "812th Armenian Battalion of Wehrmacht" under the command of Dro (Drastamat Kanayan), a seasoned guerilla leader who had fought against the Turks in the Eastern Turkey before and during the Turkish War of Independence following World War I. Later, he became the supreme commandant of the Armenian army in the short lived Armenian Republic, and in 1920-1921 he organized a wide-spread genocide against the Azeri and the Turkish populations in the region. This is documented in the book World Alive by the U.S. Naval officier Robert Steed Dunn who was an eye-witness to those Armenian atrocities. Lieutenant Dunn was the Intelligence officier of Rear Admiral Mark L. Bristol, the American High-Commissioner in the region and also a de facto American Ambassador in Turkey. Between 1919-1921 lieutenant Dunn travelled extensively with Dro and his army in the region, and both made several contacts with the Russian Bolsheviks, the Turkish and the Armenian National forces. With this historical perspective, this new task assigned to Dro by the Nazi leadership after a quarter of century later seemed to be a break to fulfill his dream of conquest. This alliance alarmed Turkey and the Turkish Jews. The British Ambassador in Ankara reported to London that "The Armenians [in Turkey] are extremely fruitful ground for German activities, and these non-Muslim elements with their pre-Kemalist [i.e. Ottoman period] mentality are always viewed with mistrust by the Turkish authorities." (Public Record Office, Foreign Office document: F.O 371/ 30031/ R5337) This infamous 812th Battalion later developed into a so-called "Armenian Legion" of 20,000-strong with the efforts of Alfred Muradian, a German-Armenian, and by Armik Jamalian, the son of the Arshak Jamalian, the Foreign Minister of the short-lived Armenian Republic. The troops of this Legion were trained and led by the SS and its Security Division S.D., and they joined the Nazi Einsatz Gruppen in the invasion of the Crimea and the North Caucasus. These Armenian Battalions rendered valuable services to the Nazis as police units for internal security duties in the occupied territories. It was their duties to round up the Jews and the other "undesirable" elements, and organize the death marches to the concentration camps. Pursuing those familiar utopic dreams, and shrewdly manipulated by the Nazis, the Armenians foolishly tied their lot to Hitler, and praised him lavishly in the Armenian-language daily Hairenik on September 17, 1936: "... and came [to power] Adolph Hitler after herculean struggles. He spoke to the racial heart strings of the German, opened the fountain of his national genius..." Then, in August 19, 1936 the same daily Hairenik published the following: "Sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements (the Jews) when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease, and when it becomes necessary for a people (the Nazis) to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary. During a surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing. Under such conditions dictatorship seems to have the role of a savior." The daily Hairenik dated August 20 exposed the following bigotry: "Jews being the most fanatical nationalists and race-worshippers, are compelled to create an atmosphere of internationalism and world-citizenship in order to preserve their race. As the British use battleships to occupy lands, the Jews use internationalism or communism as a weapon..." The September 25, 1936, Hairenik Weekly, an English language organ of the Armenians (edited in Boston) denounced Zionist aims, and adopted a strong anti-Jewish and pro-Arab view, and printed the following: ".. the type of Jews who are imported to Palestine is not anything to be proud about. Their loose morals, and their vices... and on top of all, their communist activities were the cause of most of the Arab criticism." The August 9, 1935 issue of the Hairenik Weekly published a vitriol about "the Jewish controlled film industry", then ascribed the massacres of the Jews by the Greeks and Armenians in Salonica to the Jewish love of gain. The May 10, 1935 issue of the Hairenik Weekly quoted the vice-Mayor of Bucharest, Romania as saying: "The Armenians have helped us Romanians not to become slaves of the Jewish elements." Romania was one of the foremost anti-Semitic country where the hatred for the Jews reached hyperbolic dimensions. Starting in the summer of 1942, a twenty-five years old Armenian by the name Suren Begzadian Paikhar organized and led the Armenian National Socialist (Nazi) movement called Hossank (Lightening), which gained a considerable following among Armenian youth in German-occupied Europe and to some degree in Turkey too. On December 15, 1942, these Armenian-Nazis and their supporters in Germany coalesced into the Armenian National Council under the direction of professor Ardeshir Abegian, and the vice-president Abraham Chulkandanian, and several old Dashnak guerillas, like Vahan Papazian and Karakin Nezhdeh, who were the veterans of the Turkish wars in the Eastern Anatolia after the World War I. Blessed by Alfred Rosenberg, this organization spew forth anti-Semitic and racist vituperations through the broadcasts of the Radio Berlin, and their weekly journal Armenian, published until the end of 1944, and edited by Viken Shant, son of the another well-known Dashnak leader Levon Shant. Suren Begzadian Paikhar and some Hossank followers worked as commentators/ announcers in the French and Armenian radio services of the Nazi Ministry of Propaganda under Goebbels. In those programs Paikhar was usually introduced as the Fuhrer of the Armenian people. (Patrik von zur Muhlen, Zwischen Hakenkreuz und Sowjetstern - Dusseldorf, Droste, 1971, pp. 105-106) The Armenian general Karekin Nezhdeh also founded the racist Armenian Tseghagron movement, through which the Armenian youths flocked to the SS and the other elite Nazi military forces. (Karekin Nazhdeh by James Mandalian - The Armenian Review I, 1958) Other Armenians living in France and Germany joined the 58th Panzer Corps, and the Ostlegion of the Wehrmacht's 19th Army, based in Lyon, France. The Dashnaks and the Hossank Armenian-Nazis worked closely with Admiral Canaris, who was the chief of the the German Military Intelligence (Abwehr), and his principal agent Hans Pickenbrock, the chief of the Branch No: 1, who was in charge of spying to obtain military information, as well as with Dr. Paul Leverkuhn, a key agent in Istanbul and the Director of the Istanbul Substation (KO-Nebenstelle) of the "War Organization Middle East" (Kriegsorganisation Naher Osten) from July 1941 until August 1944. This organization administered a major Nazi intelligence network, not only in Turkey but throughout the Middle East. The Armenian nationalists actively worked in those Nazi organizations to hunt down the Jews, and cooperated with Reichspropagandaleiter in spreading the Nazi propaganda in Turkey and in the Middle East. In these efforts they enlisted the support of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who was a close ally of Hitler. During the early years of World War II, Germany was sweeping through the Western Europe, and all the prognosis for the outcome of the war were in favor of Germany. As the Armenian ethics always dictate fawning on the victor, they calculated -or, miscalculated- that it was about time to commit themselves entirely to Hitler's victory. They summarily formed a "provisional" Armenian government as a dress rehearsal for their soon-to-be-realized aspirations. However, in 1943 the fate of the war began shifting from Hitler to the Allies. The Armenians, the perennial political chameleons, summarily renounced their allegiance to Germany, and did an about-face, this time groveling before the Allies. You can read more here http://www.tetedeturc.com/home/article.php?id_article=200 Here are Armenian proud of their Nazi Generals and collaberations in history. http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=141910 http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=195164 ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 07:16
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As usual this is getting out of hand. It is bordering on blacklist territory.
( Stormfront as a source? ? ? )
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:03
haha do you need better source? maybe he can find some source from a nazi webpage.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:20
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Stormfront as a source? ? ? )
It was related to earlier where someone tried to deny that there are Armenians who are proud of the Nazi connection, on Stormfront there are pages dedicated to the Armenian Nazi Batallians and General Dro.
If you read carefully most there are sources from Jewish sites.
I don't know why some come to certain forums and deny the reality while others go to other forums and boast about this reality, very strange.
Ask these guys http://www.armenianaryans.com/ - http://www.armenianaryans.com/ the Aryan Order pollitical party and their associates or the Dashnaktsutiun. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:30
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whats your point? There are racists in every country/race/religion...by the way, who was wearing a Nazi swastika at a party in Great Britain?
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:31
The maps that you provided do not represent Nagorno-Karabakh. They represent all the regions of Azerbaijan, including Nagorno-Karabakh, that were illgally occupied by Armenia in contravention to numerous UN resolutions. The "current borders" (using your own expression) bear no significance in legal terms for they merely represent the ceasefire line resulting from Armenian agression into Azerbaijan. No country in the world, including Armenia, recognizes them as borders. Your blind support for Armenian agression and violation of Azeri soveregnity begs the question: what in your opinion should happen to the more than a million Azeri refugees, whose homes have been stolen from them under your scenario? In any case, in the face of Armenian intransigence, in the end the Republic of Azerbaijan may be left with no other option but to retake by force what was taken from her by force in order to safeguard the interests and well-being of her citizens. Armenia must compromise and her forces must immediately withdraw from the occupied territories, and allow Azeri refugees to return to their homeland. The blockade on Armenia will remain unabated until she relinquishes her roque policies against her neighbours and agrees to return the properties, worth billions of dollars, stolen from Azeri refugees. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:40
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do you think, Turkey should also compensate cypriot greeks and eastern turkey armenians?(Exiled ones)
I agree with boycots, but reason is just politic. Azeris were not better than armenians, and turk are worse. Every of them ethnically cleansed some places.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:46
If Armenians think they can justify all of their crimes against the Turks under the so-called "genocide" against them from 1915 [which is actually blacklisted] they are mistaken. How many more Turks will they have to kill so that it is comparabale to their "immense suffering" - 100, 1000, 10000, 1 000 000? How many more Turks will they have to turn into refugees in order for them to be satisfied - maybe the million Turks that are today languishing in miser and poverty because of their agression is not enough for them? What I find totally disgusting and abhorrant is that people who murdered innocent women and chidren in Khojaly are today worshipped as national heroes in Armenia ... this kind of scum only deserves to be tried and imprisoned. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 11:47
wow...you just sounded so similar to bulldog, especially in the last paragraph.
the second Azerbaijan attacks Armenia will recognize them, followed by Russia. The only reason Armenia doesnt recognize, is out of goodwill.
his blind support, he made but a single post? I dont see you accusing bulldog (the supposable brit) of blind support for Azeries. After all his trashtalk, accusations of Genocide to Turks, Azeries, Kurds, Jews, Circassians and next probably Persians...who knows. The Karabakh population voted to leave the Republic of Azerbaijan, and got attacked for it. They shouldnt have defended? Being a little picky are we? Azerbaijan will attack? You are joking right? First it has to get permission from all those countries who have put money into the pipeline (UK, France, US, Japan, Turkey, Norway)..which will be practically impossible, since make no mistake, the first Azeri casualty will be the pipeline. And even if Azerbaijan does attack do you really expect it to win? It could not defeat Karabakh, which had virtually no air force (2) while Azerbaijan had 45. How do you expect it win against Armenia? You really think Turkey is going sacrafice itself and go against Russia? and you think NATO will join, Maybe you should be a little more realistic. Talks of power like your post, is exactly what Aliev has been doing for the past 5 years, only breeding hatred among his population. Nothing else. And please dont overestimate the numbers. There were 750,000 Azeri and 350,000 Armenian refugees. Armenians by the way, being from Sumgait, Baku and other cities have lost disproportionally more money, than those fleeing from villages. According to National Geographic about 500,000 Armenians were left homeless after the 1988 Earthquke. Sum up the numbes and you will see that both countries have about the same number of refugees. Today most of the Armenians are housed and sheltered. I cant say the same about Azeries, under that overly corrupt government (I have heard Azerbaijan is the 3rd most corrupt government in the world). http://www.bakuceyhan.org.uk/more_info/social.htm#corrupt Instead of reading what propaganda crap bulldog is posting here, maybe you should pick up and read books... ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:04
Well, i think, that the ceasefire line must become a legal border between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
I think, that they are living in Azerbaijan, and their life bit by bit will be normalized. They will habituate with the situation, just like the armenian refugees form western Armenia between 1895 - 1922. And my support for the armenians is not less blind than your support for all turkish and muslim things in principle.
Then me and you both will be spectators. The interesting times will comes again.
Well, in your logic: "Turkey must compromise and her forces must immediately withdraw from the occupied territories, and allow Armenians refugees to return to their homeland."
He-he! Do you think that only Turkey & Azerbaijan are blockaded their boundaries with Armenia? I think, that Armenia also blockade her boundary with Turkey and Azerbaijan... ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:07
As a whole i agree with Mortaza. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:07
Minimization of other's suffering, and maximization of your own - you are excellent at it. But if you were careful enough to read my previous post, you would have noted that I did provide a reference for the number which is: Undeclared War: The Nagorn- Karabakh Conflict Reconsidered Svante E. Cornell Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Vol. XX, No. 4, Summer 1997
I do not respond well to this kind of attitude especially from individuals who even though they claim to be knowledgeable, have done nothing but spread the Armenian propaganda line. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:10
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He-he! Do you think that only Turkey & Azerbaijan are blockaded their boundaries with Armenia? I think, that Armenia also blockade her boundary with Turkey and Azerbaijan... ROA did not blockaded Turkey, Infact they want to stop Turkish blockade. Anyway, This blockade help our interest, so ROA should be blockaded as long as we have good reasons.(Like Karabag) |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:14
Surely, Turkey is held accountable for her aggressive policies in Cyprus, which saw the ethnic cleansing and exhile of more than 180,000 innocent Greek Cypriot civilians, including children and women. If the TRNC is to ever hope for a recognition as a legitimate state it must first correct the wrongs comitted during its creation. Ethnic cleansing and the burn and scorch policy is not a legitimate means of nation building or territory acquisition in the century that live in - it was not in Cyprus, not in Bosnia, and never ever in Garabagh. One million Azeri refugees still live in the hope of returning, and nobody has the right to take this hope from them. Comparing the plight of Azeri refugees to the Armenian exile during WW1 is unserious to say the least. Most of the Armenian "refugees" are now dead long time ago, and their decendants have never been and in most cases do not wish to return to their grandparents lands now that they live comfortable lives in the West. Most Azeris on the other hand still live in misery and in tents. Besides trying to fix refugee problems from as far as WW1 would open pandoras box. Germany and Poland are still at odds over the refugee issues during WW2, imagine going back all the way to WW1. We cannot keep on justifying current wrongs, with past wrongs. The line must be drawn somewhere, and the wrongs in Cyprus, Bosnia and Garbagh, must be accounted for and their perpetrators held responsible. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:22
No problem. Keep the blockade and sleep well. ------------- |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:51
Well, then, after 90-100 years the results of the war between Azerbaijan and Armenia will be JUST "PAST WRONGS". So start waiting. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:53
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Armenia will loose out in the long-run for this blockade, it should just admit it has comitted terrible crimes, retreat from the Illegally occupied terrortories, pay its compensation, apologise and Hope Azerbaycan and Turkey lift their blockades due to Armenian agression. It may seem a little drastic to some readers but try think long term, somthing today's Armenian leaders have big trouble doing. It is today that the South Caucauses is building for its future, if you do not jump on this band-wagon today your going to get left. Armenia is being left, the longer it carries on the further it will be left and if it carries on it will never make it. Why? Think, B-T-C, think Kazakistan Gas and Petrol extensions, think Turkmenistan Gas and Petrol extensions, Nabucco, the Azerbaycan-Georgia-Turkey railway project to be completed and connected to Kazakistan, the Blue Stream. This is just today, there are many more deals in the pipe-line, things are moving forward and Armenia has Already missed out on all of these. They won't feel the impact of loosing these deals today, they will feel it 20-30 years down the line. Todays Armenian youth will be screaming at today's leadership in a few years for their stubborn, self-destructive idiotic pollitics. If Armenia had some enlightened leaders who cared about Armenia they would move towards improving relations with Turks because its in there best interests. The bottom line is, Armenia needs Turkey and Azerbaycan far more than they need Armenia, to be honest they don't need Armenia and for Armenia to win them over they'll have to do a super deal. Biggest winners out of all this are Georgia. Lets hope they re-settle the Meshket Turks as Georgia are already being called Traitors by Armenian circles and in the Dashnak program Javakh province is on their list.
The Armenian Revolutionary Federation's goals are:
Georgia should act quickly, they don't want to see another Karabakh episode. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:03
That`s the voice of the forcefull Turkey. But i don`t think that the armenian will/determination will be crushed so easy. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:18
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Will you put these silly ideological, paranoid self-delusions to the side for one minute and think logically, for the people of the country who are not living in such a great luxury in the West and hard to support their families in a country where 50% is living under the poverty line. These opportunities don't always occur, what is happening in the Southern Caucauses today is what is going to shape the future, a future Armenia has excluded itself from due to awfull corrupt leaders who are destroying Armenia's future. Turkey doesn't need to be forcefull, it doesn;t need anything to do with Armenia what-so-ever but Armenia needs Turkey alot.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:30
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One moment. I am not absolutely sure and because of that i must ask: Who starts the war between Azerbaijan and Armenia & Nagorni Karabakh? ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:34
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Armenia invaded and today Illegally occupyes Internationally Recognised Azerbaycan terrotory. The agressor is Armenia and it must compensate for the suffering it caused aswell as leave the Illegally occupied land. If it actually cared about Armenia it would do this because it can't sustain the occupation in the long-run. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:39
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One more question: Is the problem with the occupied azerbaijanian territory the same(or of the sort) as the problem with the occupied by Israel arabian lands? ------------- |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:53
Nagorno-Karabakh was an Autonomous Region within Azerbaijan, under USSR.
At this moment it's a "de jure part of the Republic of Azerbaijan, unilaterally declared itself an independent republic in 1991".
You can read an impartial and meanigfull description here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3658938.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3658938.stm ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 14:25
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Thanks for the link Yannis! Well, i agree that novadays the situation is not pink for both sides, but i don`t believe that if Armenia return back the disputed territories, Turkey and Azerbaijan will stop with the blockade of their borders with Armenia. Maybe they will say: "Bravo. That was the first step. Now you must pay lots of money for the destructions in the returned territories and for the missing relatives to the refugees. After that, you must stop calling the mutual massacres between 1895 - 1922 a "genocide". And only until all that, we bit by bit will begin the process of removing the blockade." So as say azimuth: "Stay Strong Armenia, Resist and Newer bow to the tyrant neighbours!" ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 15:30
Well if Armenia has to fix its refugee problem of 10 years ago, it will just open up a whole pandora's box... Azerbaijan will then have to be held accountable for the 350,000 refugees it caused (and all their lost businesses), not to mention owning up and paying up for its illegal military occupation which started the war (this was the biggest crime, since it had the biggest result). Oh ya, and its destruction of Armenian historical sites within its borders, not to mention its expulsion of Armenians from Nakhichevan. Yes, lets hold the perpetrators responsible, I'm completely with you on this one, bg_turk. All Armenia has to do is fix one mistake (refugees) and a dozen of their mistakes will be fixed for them (at least in theory they would be). Oh and maybe after this is settled, coastal Azerbaijan and Turkey can lift their blockades on landlocked Armenia. And you called mamikon a propaganda spreader, he simply said there are 750,000 Azeri refugees (U.N. number) and 350,000 Armenian refugees (and counting the 1988 earthquake in Armenia, it has at least as many refugees as Azerbaijan). I'd say both countries suffered equally, but the point is, it all started when Azerbaijan impeded the rights of autonomous Karabagh, who was only defending itself from an illegal military occupation. Tell me, should the people of Karabagh have allowed the Azeri military to illegally occupy them? ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 02:15
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That`s the voice of the forcefull Turkey. But i don`t think that the armenian will/determination will be crushed so easy.
Infact Armenia lost 20% of her population because of blockades, and poor economy.I dont llike this, but turkey should do what she must.
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Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 03:13
Well, Bulgaria also was(and steel is) derelict/forsaken by many people. Novadays is very popular for the poor people to work somewhere in EU or in USA. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 11:28
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"Stay Strong Armenia, Resist and Newer bow to the tyrant neighbours!"
That's all lovely and everything but there is a problem, the tyrant is Armenia. Its Armenia who is the agressor, Armenia who is Ilegally occupying a chunk of another country and Armenia who has massacred tens of thousands of people and resulted in 1 million people loosing their homes. So the argument would make more sense if you wrote, Stay Strong Azerbaycan, resist and never bow to the tyrant Neighbours. Also Armenia is a tyrant to the people of the country, the ordinary Armenian is suffering because the wacko's ruling the country are incapable of planning for the future, looking after the people and doing anything to benefit the country. The only thing keeping Armenia on its feet is hatred against Turks, which isn't a very healthy way to live. Armenia can carry on all it likes but the longer this goes on the more it will loose because its Armenia and the 50% people who live below the poverty and hunger level who are suffering. Armenia is doing nothing to help its people, now you can call this whatever name you like but to the people suffering I think the best word is SELFISH NEGLECT. I'm with the poor Armenians who are made to suffer because of their countries ridiculously backwards politics. Oh ArmenianDude, so now Azerbaycan is responsible for causing Earthquakes whatever next.
This guy is trying to compare regugees caused because Armenia destroyed their towns and villages to refugees caused by an Earthquake. If that's the case, Turkey can blame its Earthquake on you, Japan can blame its Earthquakes on Korea, China can blame its Earthquakes on Japan. The audacity of it. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Artaxiad
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 13:25
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Bulldog, before calling Armenia a "tyrant neighbour", you have to understand why the Armenians of Karabagh had to defend their land in the first place. The root of the problem is certainly not Armenia nor Armenians... Learn about the progroms in Baku, Sumgait, Ganja (Kirovabad), etc. Learn about the one and only Referendum in Karabagh which was done in accordance with Soviet law, etc. The so-called "wacko"s ruling the country have to face neighbours such as Turkey and Azerbaijan, not neighbours like Austria or Luxembourg. They have to face isolation due to the blockade imposed by both of its Turkic neighbours. And they (the Armenian people) have to thrive in a country which doesn't even have a trade route via the sea and is basically made of mountains. As the Chargemaster said, if Armenians dismantle the Republic of Karabagh, Turkey and Azerbaijan would have more and more outlandish demands and they would keep the borders closed in order to pressure Armenia to fulfill those demands. If Armenians have learned anything throughout its years in or near the Ottoman Empire is that they could never trust Turkish governments, whether they present themselves as unruly barbarians, "Europeanized" Anatolians or pious Muslims because we all know that they are not. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:23
Defend their land by invading land that was exclusively populated by Azeri's and ethnically cleanse it from its indigensous population? That is not called defense it is an aggessive invasion, a true crime against humanity.
Believe me it is not in Turkey's interest to keep the borders closed. Because of the blockade previously prosperous regions in Eastern Turkey, such as the Kars region, are now stagnating, there is very strong pressue on the Turkish government to open the border. In fact Turkey is looking for every excuse to open the border, but given the Armenian intransigence, Turkey simply cannot justify the lifting of the blockade in front of the Turkish public, not when Azeri Turks are languishing in misery due to the Armenian occpation. Turkey simply cannot trade with a state which sponsors the illegal Karabakh regime and illegally occupies the properties of more than a million Azeri refugees.
And this from the trustworthy Armenians who have always sided with the Turk's enemies, backstabbed Turks at every opportunity that was presented to them, and that still have territorial pretentions towards at least three of their four neighbours. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 16:54
If Turkey is to be held responsible for refugees from more than 30 years ago, Serbia - for refugees from 10 years ago, it is only natural that Armenia be held responsible for her crimes too. Armenia simply cannot ask for exceptions and exemptions from international law.
I do not know what your sources for the 350,000 figures is, nor have I read about the destruction of Armenian historical sights (excepts from Armenian sources), but overall I agree with your drift. All I am asking for is that each and every crime be accounted for and corrected iby independet courts (like the ECHR in the case of Cyprus). I am all for the return and repropriation of Baku Armenians. A compromise win-win situation must be found for both Armenia and Azerbaijan. Armenia cannot insist on building her prosperity on the misery of millions of Azeri refugees.
Occupy them? The Azeri millitary never even came close to occupying Garabagh. Azerbaijan mostly relied on the Soviet central government for a solution, and was not prepared for a millitary confrontation. It was only after the Armenian practices of scorched earth and brutal attacks of civilian population, that the Azeris started the millitary buildup in order to prevent the unchecked Armenian expansion with the intention to acquire millitarily as much territory as possible regardless of the ethnic make-up of those territories. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 17:55
Agressive invasion would have been if they had reached Baku...make no mistake they very well could have, especially if Republic of Armenia was to help. Invading the land nearby Karabkh is called a buffer, and its to stop Azeries from barraging Stepanakert with missiles.
Are you kidding? The government of Turkey is demanding that Armenia drop the pressure due to the Armenian Genocide, and remove all of Armenian troops from Karabkh (that includes Karabakh troops)
Armenians have lived peacefully for 500 years under the Ottoman Empire without "stabbing anyone", come the Young Turks and more than a million of Armenians are murdered in a year.
surely, no one is except...so why doesnt Turkey make a good example and bring back its refugees from more than 30 years ago and then we can talk. Until then, your phrase above means absolutely nothing.
To remind, the European Parliament overwhelmingly adopted a resolution condemning the Azerbaijani government's destruction of the Armenian cemetery in Djulfa, a unique archaeological treasure located in the Nakhichevan autonomous republic administered by Azerbaijan. The resolution, which was approved by a vote of 85 to 5, noted that, "serious allegations have been raised about the involvement of the Azerbaijani authorities in the destruction of these monuments" and stressed that " Azerbaijan has not provided answers [on this matter to] the former special rapporteur of the United Nations." Based on these and other findings, the European Parliament strongly condemns the destruction of the Djulfa cemetery [] and demands that Azerbaijan allow missions dedicated to surveying and protecting the archaeological heritage on its territory, especially Armenian heritage []. The measure also asks Azerbaijan to allow a European Parliament delegation to visit the archaeological site at Djulfa. http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=16498 Thats an Armenian news site. It only gives the news concerning Armenia, and no opinions.
What would that be? by the way...who is making millions of dollars from the oil business, lets hope these poor people you speak of get some help from Azeri "rulers" who are too busy cramming dollars in their own pockets and calling for war, instead of solving their real problems.
I cant believe you are saying that. Then who do you think launched a massive invasion in 1992 under Iskender (the Grey Wolf defense minister of Azerbaijan). In 1991 both Armenia and Azerbaijan received hundreds of heavy vehicles including BTRs and the related. Note Armenia, not Karabakh. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 18:52
The only precondition for the normalization of relations is that Armenia respects the soveregnity of Azerbiajan and recognzies the territorial integrity of Turkey. The Armenian insistance and obessession with labelling the events of 1915 has never been a precondition for the normalization of the relations, and it cannot be because it would run counter to the Turkish thesis that the isssue should be left to the historians, and not the politicians or the states.
Source: http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=26485&archive=1
Wonderful! Just a while ago you accused Bulldog for posting from "propaganda" websites, and now you are yourself quoting from the very moutpiece of Armenian-propaganda (which often writes in rather bad English and has thousands of Turk-bashing articles). Is that the best you can find? I would have expected you to quote directly from the European Parliament.
I agree. I too believe that Azerbiajan (along with Armenia) is in serious need of democratic reforms. But this does not absolve Armenia from her responsibility for her crimes against Azeri civilians.
Source: Undeclared War: The Nagorn- Karabakh Conflict Reconsidered Svante E. Cornell Journal of South Asian and Middle Eastern Studies Vol. XX, No. 4, Summer 1997 ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:02
Source: Armenia and Azerbaijan: Thinking a Way out of Karabakh Latin & Sunny MIDDLE EAST POLICY, VOL. VII, NO. 1, OCTOBER 1999 ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 19:17
Source: Latin & Sunny. Now contrast these sporadic acts of revenge by disgruntled Azeri refugees, with the methodogical and systematic cleansing and scorched earth policy implemented in the occupied territories by the Armenians. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |