Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

1421: The Year China Discovered America?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Tobodai View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Antarctica
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4310
  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 1421: The Year China Discovered America?
    Posted: 04-Dec-2004 at 19:43

the Chinese easily had the technolgy to do it, in fact Zheng He's ships were far larger and more advanced than any contemporary European ship, however, there is NO evidence, and Im sorry, Im not gonna believe the house is haunted until I see a ghost myself.

Also from the Ming perspective, why send ships across the vast empty pacific?  it made more sense for Zheng to go where he went: to the west, from Africa to Mecca, at least he knew there would be markets there.

"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
Back to Top
demon View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Brazil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1185
  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 18:28

the Chinese easily had the technolgy to do it, in fact Zheng He's ships were far larger and more advanced than any contemporary European ship, however, there is NO evidence, and Im sorry, Im not gonna believe the house is haunted until I see a ghost myself.

Also from the Ming perspective, why send ships across the vast empty pacific?  it made more sense for Zheng to go where he went: to the west, from Africa to Mecca, at least he knew there would be markets there.

Damn...I actually feel some sympathy for those few Chinese who still claim China did explore NA.  But Menzie should have had some very concrete evidence to support him...like a huge shipwreck in california or something. 

Tobodai had just mentioned a great point.  Zheng Ho was a Muslim...and Muslims have a mandatory trip to Mecca if I'm correct (at least those who can afford it).  And so, it's logical for him to visit the West. 

But the East?

Grrr..
Back to Top
coolstorm View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 02:46

"But the East?"

the main point of his trip was not to visit mecca but to serve the emperor.

he also visited indonesia, africa, india and lots of places not related to his religion.

saying that he went for religious purposes instead of serving the emperor is wrong.

Back to Top
demon View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Brazil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1185
  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2004 at 18:55

"But the East?"

the main point of his trip was not to visit mecca but to serve the emperor.

he also visited indonesia, africa, india and lots of places not related to his religion.

saying that he went for religious purposes instead of serving the emperor is wrong.

Ummm.. I didn't completely claim that Zheng Ho wanted to visit west at his will, nor completely because of religion.  Just that he had the fact in his mind as he journeyed on.

Grrr..
Back to Top
coolstorm View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2004
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 08:56

"I didn't completely claim "

so what did you "PARTIALLY" claim? i like ur wording sometimes. from "monster" bow to not claiming "completely". it's brought me lots of joys...

Back to Top
pytheas View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 14-Dec-2004
Location: Wales
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 130
  Quote pytheas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 13:12

As an archaeologist, I keep my proverbial ear to the proverbial ground and know for a fact that the Chinese landed on the coast of California in around the period in question. 

Reason 1:  There have been ships' anchors discovered off the coast of San Francisco by fishing vessels that pulled them aboard with their fishing nets.  Initial study stated that they appeared to be the same type used by Chinese warships, that in the 1420's doubled as trade vessels.  

Reason 2:Closer investigation--Carbon-14 dating and metallurgical testing was able to confirm the date and origin of the anchorheads to 14th century Chinese. 

My other concern thus far is that no one seems to have mentioned that the Scandinavians via Greenland and Iceland are known to have sailed along the coast of Labrador, Canada and archaeologists located and excavated a site known as Vinland (taken from the study of the Norse Sagas, that confirmed the Viking presence). 

Other factors in this discussion to be considered are:

1.  While dominant theory states that humans did not cross from the Old World to the New World until around 15-20,000 years ago holds, there are several sites that challenge the above theory.

    A.  A site in South America that was dated to 40,000 YBP (years before present) with stone tools.

   B.  Archaeologists, led by a professor, named Albert Goodyear from the University of South Carolina has conducted excavations and Carbon-14 dating on samples from the Topper site, located on the east coast of the state and has yielded dates of 30-50,0000 YBP.  The site includes stone tools. 

Now the obvious question now is not really when so much as how and where.  How did people populate the New World?  And where did they originate?  Mnay scholars have traditionally held to the Land Bridge theory, where hunter-gatherers crossed from Asia by way of a landbridge located between present-day Alaska and Siberia during a high point in the last great Ice Age, which left sea levels at an extreme low.  Many of the same scholars have scoffed at the notion that people could have crossed by simlar land bridges created (or at least produced larger islands to hop-scotch across) the North Atlantic. 

With the most recent data, scientists are having to rethink the possibility that people crossed over to the New World at various times, either via land bridges from Asia or island-hopping via Polynesia and Europe.  Many would also point to the discovery of human remains on the shores of the Columbia River in Washington State.  The skeletal remains included the skull.  The morphology of the skull displays more charateristically European features and raied questions as to the ethnicity of the man.  The other interest in the skelton in question were the results of carbon-14 dating which placed him at around 8,500 YBP and a large bifacial projectile point (stone spear point) embedded in the man's hip bone.  The skeleton is known as Kennewick Man.

Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.
Back to Top
Mangudai View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 368
  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 14:52
Well even if the chinese discovered America in the early 15th century (of which we have no proof yet) they didn't contribute to the history of the new world at all 
Back to Top
warhead View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 760
  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 12:36
I'm much less interested in discovering of America then the Gando Map that Menzie brought up. That seem to have sceintific evidence. Since the Guando shows the west coast of Africa fairly accurately, its possible that Zheng He's fleet had sailed around the Cape of Good Hope and into the West African coast for some distance before returning. While the Ming map SHOWS a drawing of teh Armada AT the cape of Good hope, it would seem the Ming fleet did reach the Cape of Good Hope at least.
Back to Top
Liang Jieming View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 30-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 65
  Quote Liang Jieming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 21:21
I'm interested in some of the things Menzies says is still there for study.  I still read his claims with disbelief but am curious all the same.  Why postulate and theorize when we can go examine his "proofs"?

Cape Verde Islands stelle which has been defaced by portuguese sailors but still show asiatic writings

Azores horseman statue which in European reports was destroyed by portuguese? (I think) when they got there.

Mounds on the beaches of the northern Bahamas near the Bimini stones.

Bimini stones dimensions.  Do they match old chinese measurements?

Newport tower dimensions.  Do they match old chinese measurements?

Don't need all to proof true.  Just even if one of these show enough evidence that they were Chinese in origin would show that if not Zhenghe, some other Chinese mariner reached round the cape.

Jieming
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DragonSeedLegacy
Back to Top
Christscrusader View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 13-Nov-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 22:26
Ok even if the Chinese sailor did land in North AMerica, it has little impact on China and its people.
Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
Back to Top
demon View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Brazil
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1185
  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 04:40

"I didn't completely claim "

so what did you "PARTIALLY" claim? i like ur wording sometimes. from "monster" bow to not claiming "completely". it's brought me lots of joys...

Ask your grammar teacher how does the subject of a phrase relate to its "verb". 

Mounds on the beaches of the northern Bahamas near the Bimini stones.

Bimini stones dimensions.  Do they match old chinese measurements?

That's awkward.  China must have either crossed the straight in argentina or cape of good hope to reach the carribeans.  Or of course, it could have spread by land or they could have walked there by land.  But then, it were the mayans who lived there in the first place...They who erected gargantuan piramids...who could explain for such measurements (remember that they had to have the correct proportions for their piramids). 

-----------

I have a daring Questions for you people who support Zeng ho.  I've recently read an article of this Carthaginian who circumnavigated africa in the time before Rome.  And this guy have mentioned this change in sun rise, due to the change in location created by being in a different zone(either north of equator or below).  Has Zheng Ho's trip ever mention such phenomenon?

Grrr..
Back to Top
vagabond View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 524
  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 16:12

The accomplishments of the Chinese fleet are admirable - but Menzies - in my mind - does damage to their reputation by dragging in such a long list of unproven and disproven myths. 

He lost me completely at that mention of the Newport Tower.  I have lived in Rhode Island for most of my life, and everyone here who has done any serious research on the topic knows that it was a colonial era windmill built by Benedict Arnold, an early governor of the colony (I believe he was an ancestor of the famous traitor of the same name).  His will (ca 1677) even lists the Tower, in which he says "My body I desire and appoint to be buried at ye North East corner of a parcell of ground containing three rod square being of and lying in my land in or near ye line or path from my dwelling house leading to my Stone built Wind-mill, in ye town of Newport"  http://www.bigbertis.com/mill/wilofgov.htm and http://www.redwoodlibrary.org/tower/arnold.htm lists a group of reference articles in which the Tower is listed as resembling one in Chesterton, England, where Arnold was raised.  This is the first historical mention of the tower that exists.  

I and many other locals assume that there would have been some prior mention of the tower had it existed before that time.  During his 1499 voyage, Amerigo Vespucci sailed into Narragansett Bay, but made no mention of the Tower, which would have been plainly visible to anyone entering the Bay.  In 1524, Verrazano recorded entering the Bay and trading with the Narragansett Indians, but made no mention of the Tower.  Dutch traders in the 1630's used the island now called Dutch Island as a trading post in Naragansett Bay - but made no mention of the Tower.  William Coddington founded the town of Newport in 1639, but there is no record of the Tower in early town documents.

If the rest of Menzies' scholarship is a bad as this - his premise rests on very shaky ground.



Edited by vagabond
In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
Back to Top
Turk View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 23-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103
  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 16:25

Just would like to say Zheng He was a Muslim and even went to Hajj...Great man.

And all this discussion about "who discovered America" is totally insulting and degrading towards Native Americans!

Back to Top
Christscrusader View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 13-Nov-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 00:29
Cool zheng he was a muslim, are you trying to share credit here with your muslim brother? This information does not add to the topic.
Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 07:33
Originally posted by Christscrusader

Cool zheng he was a muslim, are you trying to share credit here with your muslim brother? This information does not add to the topic.

This comment doesn't either.
Please don't stab at muslims at every occasion.
Back to Top
Cywr View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6003
  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 06:26

As an archaeologist, I keep my proverbial ear to the proverbial ground and know for a fact that the Chinese landed on the coast of California in around the period in question. 

Reason 1:  There have been ships' anchors discovered off the coast of San Francisco by fishing vessels that pulled them aboard with their fishing nets.  Initial study stated that they appeared to be the same type used by Chinese warships, that in the 1420's doubled as trade vessels.  

Reason 2:Closer investigation--Carbon-14 dating and metallurgical testing was able to confirm the date and origin of the anchorheads to 14th century Chinese. 

 

Those anchors are made of stone (the doughnut shaped ones i presume you are talking about), thus metalurgy is out.

You can't carbon date stuff that has been underwater.

AFAIK, they've been dated to fishing boats used by Chinese Americans/Mexicans (pre-independance Spanish Mexico rather) in the late 1700s and 1800s.

Cape Verde Islands stelle which has been defaced by portuguese sailors but still show asiatic writings

Malayalam (sp?) to be precise, from Indian sailors working on Portugese boats. And the Newport tower is too young.

 

Hmm, sorry about double spacing, am typing this on a different computer and i don't know why its doing that.

 



Edited by Cywr
Arrrgh!!"
Back to Top
cattus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1803
  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 06:30
I have seen footage of those anchors when pulled out. They looked all stone to me.

It would be interesting to see a picture of the chinese tower that resembles the Newport.
Back to Top
Christscrusader View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 13-Nov-2004
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 14:09

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Cool zheng he was a muslim, are you trying to share credit here with your muslim brother? This information does not add to the topic.

This comment doesn't either.
Please don't stab at muslims at every occasion.

This is not a stab at muslims. I was trying to get across that was Zheng He only a good man because he went to Hajj? That is not a good way to judge a man.

Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 10:29
Originally posted by Christscrusader

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli

Originally posted by Christscrusader

Cool zheng he was a muslim, are you trying to share credit here with your muslim brother? This information does not add to the topic.

This comment doesn't either.
Please don't stab at muslims at every occasion.

This is not a stab at muslims. I was trying to get across that was Zheng He only a good man because he went to Hajj? That is not a good way to judge a man.

You didn't say that.
 The way you said it looks very much like a stab at muslims.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2005 at 16:15

Any Chinese exploration of the new world could have been accomplished by sailing along the northern Pacific rim. People forget that you can sail from the Eurasia to the Americas and still stay along the coast. A feat that humans achieved 20-40 thousands of years ago.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.124 seconds.