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Posts: 217 		  Quote Rajput Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Aryan Indians
    Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 20:56
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

I am not denying that one or two Sikhs from Rajasthan are "Nordindid" - I've actually seen a picture of one with blue eyes to, I know that the odd one does exist. I just believe
 
Telde for the record that guy is not a sikh he's a rajput...he probably hasn't even seen a sikh in his whole life and the closest thing to a sikh he knows is sunny deol from the movie 'border'.  We don't think too highly of sikhs as the majority are jats and the jats themselves dont have a very honorable history regarding sikhism, many had deserted their Guru at the time of war (especially punjabi jats from Majha in bordering pakistan areas)
 
Originally posted by Hellenic

I have found Indians to be very inherently insecure people especially when it comes to the issue of colour, looks though I think this has more to do with religion than actual fact.
 
The hindu religion preaches equality it actually has alot to do with the brahmin monopoly on hinduism, which is slowly diminishing.  The sikhs are considered a 2nd class citizen in India hence why they had to leave the country.  But, if you think India is bad you need to catch a Flight to africa buddy, yea another thing Indians still have the might to woop your alexander arse back into helens loins so don't even think about venturing in here with those comments you cracker!  Dont you have something better to do like taking your wife to bellydance classes??


Edited by Rajput - 02-Jul-2006 at 11:17


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Posts: 97 		  Quote Vedam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 03:53

Teldeinduz

Uttar pradesh has apopulation of 180 million and has 9% Brahmins, the largest number. It is the hindu heartland, with varanasi, mathura ahyudya,
To find about kapoor just type it on wikipedia , or just type in Kapoor khatri on the net and you will get a million matrimonial sites or punjabi kapoor
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 04:12
Tele, the average pasthun has a skin color which is "light". Many of the men, look darker since they are often out in the sun. This is true of all caucasoids
Skin color  should always be taken on some unexposed part of the body.
 
I am sure they are light skinned Indians just as much as there are dark (Ulf Kirsten) Germans.
 
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Posts: 125 		  Quote RajputGirl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 15:19
I am not denying that one or two Sikhs from Rajasthan are "Nordindid" - I've actually seen a picture of one with blue eyes to, I know that the odd one does exist. I just believe
 
That man isn't Sikh.  People need to stop assuming that only Sikhs wear turbans. 
 
The Sikh turban and beard is different from the Rajput Hindus' turban and beard.
 
Here are some Sikh boys.  See the difference?   Their turbans aren't colorful like how the men in Rajasthan wear them, and their beards are tucked in. 
 
 
 
 
 
As far as Chitpavans are concerned, a lot of them look as Indian as they come, even if they do have "roots elsewhere."   Like Vedam said, having roots elsewhere don't matter anymore.  You're Indian at the end of the day. 
 
Sonali Bendre and Madhuri Dixit are Chitpavans. Look up their pictures.  They have dark hair, dark eyes, etc. 
 
 
typical indian noses
 
Um, what's your definition of a typical Indian nose?  Indians can pop out with any type of nose.   Even in my family, we have nasal variations.  Mind you, we're all of the same kin!   Tongue
 
 
 
 


Edited by RajputGirl - 01-Jul-2006 at 15:37
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 02:10
Originally posted by Vedam

Teldeinduz

Uttar pradesh has apopulation of 180 million and has 9% Brahmins, the largest number. It is the hindu heartland, with varanasi, mathura ahyudya,
 
Uttar Pradesh has 9% Brahmins in a population of 180 million..so what does that prove even if it's true (which it probably isnt, you have taken it from wiki, which is a bad source)
_________________________________________________
 
There are about 4 million Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh, and this is the greatest concentration of Brahmins in India (4% of India is Brahmin).
 
4% of a billion = 40 million Brahmins in India
 
About 10 percent of Indias priestly Brahmin caste lives there (Uttar Pradesh)
 
Number of Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh - 4 million, not 18 million according to you.
_____________________________________________
 
Of these 4 million a small proportion are Nordinidic so perhaps 2 or 4% which is 80,000. This is just for that Nordinidic class, which includes all colours of hair, eyes and skin.
 
In the end you're looking at perhaps 10,000 - 20,000 Uttar Pradesh Brahmins with the features you describe out of 180,000,000  (0.008%).
 
So, 0.008% of people from Uttar Pradesh look perhaps something like the person in the picture which constitutes 0.0016% of the Indian population. Even these figures are overestimates.
________________________________________________
 
Even if you consider 15,000 people in Uttar Pradesh to be like the person in the picture, how is this anything more than an aberration or an oddity in India?
 
Even the pictures show this. The Chaturvedis and Bharagavas are the two main Brahmin castes of Uttar Pradesh and none of the ones I see possess anything like those features you talk about
 
 
 
 
This is a picture with the title "An Acharya of the Mathura Chaturvedi Sanskrit Mahavidhyalaya drawing the Swastik symbol on the head of a disciple during the 'Janau' ceremony in Mathura on Thursday. PTI photo"
 
   
 
 
Kalyan Singh, Brahmin, from Aligarh district Uttar Pradesh, former chief minister Uttar Pradesh.
 
So how are any of these people remotely Nordinidic with the features you say? Mathura is Uttar Pradesh and they're Chaturvedi Brahmins. They are a more lighter skinned people in India, but they dont look to be anything near Nordinidic.
 
To find about kapoor just type it on wikipedia , or just type in Kapoor khatri on the net and you will get a million matrimonial sites or punjabi kapoor
  
 
Surnames arent really important at all. Khan is a common Pathan surname, but some people are so heavily mixed up with others, they look nothing like Pathans. Same applies to Kapoor. It's just a name, the fact is they lived in Peshawar for generations, and he called himself Pathan. You also do get non Muslim Pathans, for example, Jewish Pathans, and there's a couple of thousand Hindu and Sikh Pathans.
 
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 04:10
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 02:20
Originally posted by Sparten

Tele, the average pasthun has a skin color which is "light". Many of the men, look darker since they are often out in the sun. This is true of all caucasoids
Skin color  should always be taken on some unexposed part of the body.
 
Yeah, that's true Sparten. When I talk of light for Pashtuns I mean as light as Nordics, which is perhaps 5 to 15%. It's a lower estimate and the tan does make a difference in my judgement.
 
Pakistani cricket team is always a good indicator as it has a mixture of ethnicities. I think only two of them are Pathan, Younis Khan is from Mardan, Shahid Afridi from a bit further North I believe (Arshad Khan holds a Khan surname but has none of the features from what I can see. Whenever I search for Pathan on google I keep getting Irfan Pathan's pictures coming up!). Anyway, I think these two are a good representation of average Pathan colours and features..
 
 
 
 
I am sure they are light skinned Indians just as much as there are dark (Ulf Kirsten) Germans.
 
I'm pretty sure it's not on such a large scale as some are trying to make out.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 04:20
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 02:58
Originally posted by RajputGirl

 
That man isn't Sikh.  People need to stop assuming that only Sikhs wear turbans. 
 
The Sikh turban and beard is different from the Rajput Hindus' turban and beard.
 
Here are some Sikh boys.  See the difference?   Their turbans aren't colorful like how the men in Rajasthan wear them, and their beards are tucked in. 
 
 
 
 
I dont see why this has to be the case. You might be right, and I am not speaking with any knowledge on Sikh or Rajput dress code, but some Sikhs wear turbans, some Sikhs dont, some Sikhs wear a turban withthe hair knotted into a ball, there's many different styles. This Sikh has another style of turban
 
 
 
 
As far as Chitpavans are concerned, a lot of them look as Indian as they come, even if they do have "roots elsewhere."   Like Vedam said, having roots elsewhere don't matter anymore.  You're Indian at the end of the day. 
 
Sonali Bendre and Madhuri Dixit are Chitpavans. Look up their pictures.  They have dark hair, dark eyes, etc. 
 
I actually said that the majority of Chitpovans do have dark hair and dark eyes, typical Indobrachids, not Nordinidids.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 02:59
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Okay...well I'm just letting you know that you shouldn't have quickly assumed that man was Sikh. :)    When I said that he was from Rajasthan, it should have clicked that he was Rajput and not some Punjabi Sikh.  ;)
 
 
When I posted that girl's picture, I wasn't trying to imply that she looked Nordic, Afghan, or whatever.    Light eyes or having light skin doesn't make you magically look "un-Indian."  We know what our people look like, regardless how much variation there is among us. 
 
No offense, but what is up with the Pakistani obsession of looking Afghan or looking remotely anything like the people west of the sub-continental area?  I have never heard so much preoccupation with Afghans, Persians and Arabs until I moved to Chicago (which is dominantly Pakistani). 
 
surnames really aren't important at all
 
 I will agree that there are time where surnames don't accurately reflect someone's caste/ethnicity (name changes, remarriage/ adoption, inter-caste marriages, etc)    But from my experience, such cases don't happen too often.        Chances are that the overwhelming amount Kapoors are genuine Punjabis.    I don't hear the Kapoor sisters claiming any Pathan ancestry.    Do you have a source where this guy actually states, "I'm a Pathan."?
 
 
 
 


Edited by RajputGirl - 02-Jul-2006 at 05:36
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And, btw....An online site claims that MadhuBala is of Pathan descent, but she could easily pass for a legit North Indian.  To be honest, I was surprised that she was ethnically Pathan (if that site is right).
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 06:16
Originally posted by RajputGirl

 
No offense, but what is up with the Pakistani obsession of looking Afghan or looking remotely anything like the people west of the sub-continental area?  I have never heard so much preoccupation with Afghans, Persians and Arabs until I moved to Chicago (which is dominantly Pakistani). 
 
Well, I'm Afghan ethnicity which is also known as the Pathan ethnicity, so I would want to look like an Afghan/Pathan - there's about 20 million Afghans/Pathans in Pakistan, in fact Peshawar has the densest concentration of Pathans in the world, and Pakistan has the most Pathans in the world, so there should be at least 20 million Pakistanis wanting to look Afghan/Pathan else something is wrong. I cant say about Punjabi or Sindhi Pakistanis, but I never met one where it was so important to look Arab or Persian (raises the question what does an Arab or Persian look like). You should ask Omar al Hashim, he's a Sindhi, would be interesting LOL. People often mix me up with countries west of the subcontinent but I prefer it when someone guesses Pakistan.
 
Do you have a source where this guy actually states, "I'm a Pathan."?
 
In the other thread
 
, Film India (the renowned magazine of 30s, 40s and 50s) made an observation about Prithviraj Kapoor saying, There is no place in the films for uncouth brawny Pathans who think they can make it as actors. In his reply to Film India, Prithviraj said, Baburao, do not provoke this Pathan.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 08:09
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Posts: 97 		  Quote Vedam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 06:37
TeldeIndux you keep saying things that demand my response, are you playing a game with meSmile
You tell that Brahmins are 4% of U.P, and 10% of the whole Brahmin community and use  some Baptist Christian missionery link site.  Oh come on.Smile
Then you then deduce that Brahmins are 40 million.
U.P is the Hindu hartland with with many holy cities, add to this that 15% of Indians are from U.P and you think 4 million Brahmin total there. There is probably a million in Banaras.
Tell me what state would have the highest number of Brahmins Goa or Assam maybeSmile
Ok these are some facts that you cannot argue with.
In the 1931 census taken by the British there were 15 million Brahmins, this is in the Whole subcontinent, including Pakistan and Bangadesh and now after 75 years it is 40 million you think when the rest of the population has exploded  (the whole subcontinent has gone from 300 million in 1931 to 1300 million in 2006.
These are facts.
Secondly i never once said U.P Brahmins are Nordic, i just said you do find some fair haired fair eyed Indian in the Mountaineous parts.
With Kapoor they did  not live in Peshawar for generations, but only 1 or 2 they are originally from LLaypur (Faisalabad)
Yes you are correct Madhubala is Pathan, from U.P, (khan surname) if i took your line i would argue she must be HinduSmile also Shah rukh is as well from Delhi, not your blue eyed and fair typeSmile
They are Pathans but i couldn't tell you much more, i wouldn't presume to tell you as i think you are a Pathan, so you are the Ustad, yet you are telling me about my communties and how many there are and what number. I can only laugh 


Edited by Vedam - 02-Jul-2006 at 07:01
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 07:13
Originally posted by Vedam

TeldeIndux you keep saying things that demand my response, are you playing a game with meSmile
 
Dont respond then. I'm not forcing you to.
 
You tell that Brahmins are 4% of U.P, and 10% of the whole Brahmin community and use  some Baptist Christian missionery link site.  Oh come on.Smile 
 
I did a search for it and that's what I came up with. If you have the results of the 2001 census for Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh, then post the link, that would be better.
 
Then you then deduce that Brahmins are 40 million.
U.P is the Hindu hartland with with many holy cities, add to this that 15% of Indians are from U.P and you think 4 million Brahmin total there. There is probably a million in Banaras.
Tell me what state would have the highest number of Brahmins Goa or Assam maybeSmile
Ok these are some facts that you cannot argue with.
In the 1931 census taken by the British there were 15 million Brahmins, this is in the Whole subcontinent, including Pakistan and Bangadesh and now after 75 years it is 40 million you think when the rest of the population has exploded  (the whole subcontinent has gone from 300 million in 1931 to 1300 million in 2006.
 
I'm not saying you're wrong. If you have links besides wiki, then those might be correct. I found one which said that, I'll probably find another which says another thing, so unless you have the census data I doubt anyone will know. But it's not really important. I dont see what the number of Brahmins in Uttar Pradesh has to do with anything, as most of them just look slightly fairer than the average Indian. You can post pictures of the neighbourhood though if you like..
 
These are facts.
Secondly i never once said U.P Brahmins are Nordic, i just said you do find some fair haired fair eyed Indian in the Mountaineous parts.
 
UP Brahmins arent Nordic in the slightest. A couple might be Nordinidic..How many Brahmins live in the mountains would you say?
 
With Kapoor they did  not live in Peshawar for generations, but only 1 or 2 they are originally from LLaypur (Faisalabad)
 
Lol, they lived for at least 3-4 generations there, and most likely more, there was a job going at a police station for 1 generation in Llayapur, the link is in the other thread.
 
They are Pathans but i couldn't tell you much more, i wouldn't presume to tell you as i think you are a Pathan, so you are the Ustad, yet you are telling me about my communties and how many there are and what number. I can only laugh 
 
Dont know what this means.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 07:55
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 09:08
Originally posted by RajputGirl

No offense, but what is up with the Pakistani obsession of looking Afghan or looking remotely anything like the people west of the sub-continental area?  I have never heard so much preoccupation with Afghans, Persians and Arabs until I moved to Chicago (which is dominantly Pakistani). 
 
1) West of the Indus, is west of the Sub Continental area.
2) Both Tele and I are Pathan, or more accuratly Pashtun.
 
As for surnames, I should clear up the confusion about "Khan". All it means is "belongs to". So Shahid Khan Afridi, means Shahid of the Afridi tribe. It is used on its own for a surname as well (indeed mine is also Khan), but its use does not signify pashtun ancestry.
  Tele, whats a pakistani doing in Paraguay?
 
 
 
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Teldeinduz you are adamant about Hindu pathans. Telling me with such authority.
 
All hindus belong to one of the 4 varnas, you can only be born a hindu.
Brahmins (Priest)
Kshatriya(Warrior) including Khatri and Rajput
Vaisyas (Traders)
Sudra (labourers)
 
So tell me what Varna do these Hindu Pathans belong to that you speak ofSmile
 
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Originally posted by Sparten

Tele, whats a pakistani doing in Paraguay?
 
I'm not really in Paraguay..It was a random strike Cool 
 
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This is Ustad Amjad Ali Khan of the Bangash tribe of Pashtuns (My dad knows him personally)  I dont get it...I can show you Indians as fair or fairer then him.  BTW his sons, who are fairer then him in person, have the same skin tone as me so what is your point ? 

 


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Originally posted by Teldeinduz

Well, I'm Afghan ethnicity which is also known as the Pathan ethnicity, so I would want to look like an Afghan/Pathan 
 
Let me get this straight, you're an Afghan...?  What is your tribal affiliation from both your mothers and your fathers side?  I have known about half-dozen afghans and let me tell you they'd beat you to pulp if you told them you're an afghan/pathan or whatever, they hate pathans and say that they're punjab mixbreeds!
 
Originally posted by Sparten

Tele, whats a pakistani doing in Paraguay?
 
He's from somewhere in Europe.


Edited by Rajput - 02-Jul-2006 at 09:32


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Originally posted by Vedam

Teldeinduz you are adamant about Hindu pathans. Telling me with such authority.
 
All hindus belong to one of the 4 varnas, you can only be born a hindu.
Brahmins (Priest)
Kshatriya(Warrior) including Khatri and Rajput
Vaisyas (Traders)
Sudra (labourers)
 
So tell me what Varna do these Hindu Pathans belong to that you speak ofSmile
 
Why cant a Pathan work as a labourer or a trader, or even a priest? What do you mean you can only be born a Hindu? Are you saying that people havent converted to Hinduism in the past?

Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 09:31
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 09:37
Originally posted by Rajput

 
Let me get this straight, you're an Afghan...?  What is your tribal affiliation from both your mothers and your fathers side?  I have known about half-dozen afghans and let me tell you they'd beat you to pulp if you told them you're an afghan/pathan or whatever, they hate pathans and say that they're punjab mixbreeds!
 
You're not too bright, so until you turn the bulb on, there's no point responding to jibberish when you dont even know the origin and meaning of the word "Pathan".
 
PS Is this you?
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 02-Jul-2006 at 09:38
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Posts: 97 		  Quote Vedam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 09:41
No people have converted in the past as Hindus but they were whole large groups who were put in the into a varna, so for example the Kusanas and Sythians  may have become Rajputs and their Priests Brahmins,  but this was when there was a state of Influx in society.
But now you cannot be Priest for example unless you are a Brahmin.
It is like the Jewisg religion which is also a people/various tribes
I do not dispute that Hindus in the NWF call themselves Pathans but they are Hindkho Pathans or called Punjabi Pathans because they speak HAVE ABSORBED THE CULTURE, BUT THEY ARE NOT TRUE PATHANS. They do not trace themselves to the certain various ancstors that Pathans will have.
Hope this clears it up.   
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