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Bulldog
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Topic: Turkish words in your language Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 15:20 |
DayI has a pont, "Er" is a very Turkic word, man/Soldier, maybe Ask-er is an Arabic-Turkic word? like Ordu-bad is Turkic-Persian, Ordu being Turkic bad being Persian for town.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Hushyar
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Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 15:36 |
Originally posted by Day1
askar isnt arabic origin, ask- er, er actually means also a soldier but i believe with "ask" added it means weaponed soldier.
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Originally posted by Bulldog
DayI has a pont, "Er" is a very Turkic word, man/Soldier, maybe Ask-er is an Arabic-Turkic word? like Ordu-bad is Turkic-Persian, Ordu being Turkic bad being Persian for town.
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I am not linguistist, And I don't claim on having a special knowledge on Turkic languages, but 'askar(glotal 'ayn a very classical Semitic sound) is a very well known word in Arabic litreature, for example in 10th century, Motannabi famous Arab poet, in Azadodlleh Deylami court, has a Qasideh which praise Azadodlleh Buyyid Amir that destroyed Vahsudan Army Deylami Amir of Azarbaijan.
which says: nalta va mAnalta men mazrata vah sudhAn mANAla ra'yoho alfAsed ........ ........ ...... va layta yawmi fanA'a 'askarah va lam takon Daniyan va ShAhed
And Every day you destroy his Army , although you were not present there or seeing it.
older in 9th centry:
11th Imam of Shiis and father of 12th Imam of Shiis (Imam Mahdi)is Imam Hasan 'askari becasue most of times he was in jail in military camps.
Is it possible for anybody to show me a similar time that this word ('askar) has been used in Turkic litreature?
Originally posted by BullDog
DayI has a pont, "Er" is a very Turkic word, man/Soldier, maybe Ask-er is an Arabic-Turkic word?
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I can't accept that because Arabic language is different with persian and Turkish, in Arabic there is not preffix and suffix, foreign words that are borrowed can not combine with other words to produce compound words.so 'askar is completely Arabic or not.
And About er and 'askar, we have a similar Iranic word, Lashkar or Lashgar or Lashkir which has the same meaning of 'askar, And it has been used from PreIslamic era, So what can we say ? was that borrowed too? How?
Originally posted by Bulldog
like Ordu-bad is Turkic-Persian, Ordu being Turkic bad being Persian for town.
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Ordu might be from mongolian languages.
Bad Actually Abad if used as adjective means habitable,inhabited,cultivated if used as suffix means habitation. it has been derived from Ab which which means water in Persian.(Dehkhoda Dictionary which is the most trusted source in Persian language)
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Bulldog
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Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 16:15 |
Well "Er" has always been used as Soldier. Turks contributed alot of Millitary terms to other languages througout the ages but I
don't know about "Asker" you could be correct.
"Ordu" is Turkic, I don't know why you put Mongolian into the equation
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Hushyar
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Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 23:44 |
I said "might be" which does not refute possibility of Turkish origin, but word "ordu" has entered persian language in Ilkhanid times and from mongolian language. If Altaic Theory is correct, this word maybe common between two language groups, if it is not it may be borrowed, mongolian to Turkic languages or turkic to mongolian languages.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 10:30 |
Hushyar
but word "ordu" has entered persian language in Ilkhanid times and from mongolian language.
Aha I understand why you think its "Mongolian" now, however, it isn't, the Ilkhanids were Turkified from within, their soldiers were Turks and their clerks were Uygur Turks gradually after accepting Islam the ruling elite became more and more Turkified.
You could be correct about it being an "Altaic" word in this case it would be natural for both to use it. Maybe a Mongolian member can shed light on this.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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Hushyar
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Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 15:55 |
Well I don't want to enter the details of this discussion because here is a linguistic room and this discussion belongs to Post classical mddle east, I just summarize your points (As I got it)and try to answer it.
1)In ilkhanid time Turkic language(which one ?) was official in Iran. 2)The Ilkhanid were Turkified within 3)Teir soldiers were Turks 4)Their clerks were uighur 5)gradually after accepting Islam the ruling elite became more and more Turkified.
my answer:
1)In Ilkhanid Time (and 50 years after Temuchin Conquest and Holagu) there were two divani languages Persian and mongolian which was written in Uighur scripts This condition continued unitl ghazan khan when Mongolian was used only for communication with great kHan.
2)Ilkhanid khaqans and princes and nobles considered themselves mongols and spoke mongolian(they want to seperate themselves from others) having Changiz blood or belong to original tribes of olus of changiz khan was considered a great honour.
3)not all of them, actually some of the elite tribes like sulduz and jalayer and some others were mongols and had special place, but this is true that as time passed Turkic tribes dominated the military.
4)in the first 50 years of mongol domination(before Hulagu) and even in times of Hulagu Chinese and uighur experts were used along the local administrative system, but as time passed Iranian dominated the administrative system.(from Joveyni to sa'doddolleh to Rashideddin and others..)
5)Ruling elite always retained their mongolic identity until when the ilkhanid stopped and Abusa'id died.After that time in khorasan Sarbedaran sweeped any trace of mongols and in Azarbaijan, and Iraq, mongols and eastern turks were assimilated in oghuz culture.
in the end I just want to emphasis that in 13th century mongolian language was used along with persian in administrative system of Ilkhans. from that era many turkic and mongolian words entered in Persian.
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Tske
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Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:27 |
A vros nem biztos hogy turkish . hangok megvltznak. V_f R-L=fal falu
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Ignoring facts is criminal
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Tske
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Posted: 05-Oct-2006 at 17:30 |
Er could be UR Guardian (egyptian)
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Ignoring facts is criminal
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Qutuz
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Posted: 19-Oct-2006 at 20:49 |
Arabic has quite a lot of Turkish words I think, some of the more common ones are:
Basha (Pasha) Bey Effendi Abla (I think it means sister in Turkish?) Oodah (I think it means "room" in Turkish?)
There's others I'm not sure about. Does any Turkish speaker know if the word "Dulab" is from Turkish? It has two meanings in Arabic, one is "Wardrobe" and another is "Tyre".
However most of them are only used in the Arabic Vernaculars, and not in the formal/classical Arabic.
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DayI
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 13:57 |
Originally posted by Qutuz
Arabic has quite a lot of Turkish words I think, some of the more common ones are:
Basha (Pasha) Bey Effendi Abla (I think it means sister in Turkish?) Oodah (I think it means "room" in Turkish?)
There's others I'm not sure about. Does any Turkish speaker know if the word "Dulab" is from Turkish? It has two meanings in Arabic, one is "Wardrobe" and another is "Tyre".
However most of them are only used in the Arabic Vernaculars, and not in the formal/classical Arabic.
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dolab - dulab has the same meaning in Turkish as it has in arabic.
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Qutuz
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 14:24 |
Tashakur ederim DayI
Do you know if I was correct about "Oodah" being Turkish also?
And also do you know if Dolab originates from Turkish or is borrowed as well?
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The Gypo
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 17:35 |
Originally posted by Qutuz
Arabic has quite a lot of Turkish words I think, some of the more common ones are:
Basha (Pasha) Bey Effendi Abla (I think it means sister in Turkish?) Oodah (I think it means "room" in Turkish?)
There's others I'm not sure about. Does any Turkish speaker know if the word "Dulab" is from Turkish? It has two meanings in Arabic, one is "Wardrobe" and another is "Tyre".
However most of them are only used in the Arabic Vernaculars, and not in the formal/classical Arabic.
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yes, this was somewhat confusing for me when i heard a classic lebanese song a verse saying: dawalib e'seyara i asked my mum what it meant and she translated it into egyptian arabic: 3agal el 3arabeya...meaning the wheels of the cart/car...(3 representing ayn)
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Qutuz
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Posted: 20-Oct-2006 at 22:39 |
aywah huwa keda bil 3ameeyah masreeyah.
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The Gypo
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 00:59 |
yea...the general public would speak it as such
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Mordoth
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 05:54 |
in Bosnjak Language ;
Dzamija = Cami (Actually transformed into Turkish from Arabic )
Sokak = sokak ( street )
Seftalija = Brestva = (Peach)Seftali
Sandzak = Sancak ( Tug )
Secer = Seker ( Sugar )
Dugme = Dugme
Saraj = Saray ( Palace )
MAhalu = Mahalle ( District )
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If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|
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Qutuz
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 08:40 |
seker is also from Arabic (originally from Persian or Sanskrit though I think) Likewise Mahalle is from the Arabic Mahal meaning "a place".
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Tangriberdi
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Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 21:29 |
Originally posted by Mordoth
in Bosnjak Language ;
Dzamija = Cami (Actually transformed into Turkish from Arabic )
Sokak = sokak ( street )
Seftalija = Brestva = (Peach)Seftali
Sandzak = Sancak ( Tug )
Secer = Seker ( Sugar )
Dugme = Dugme
Saraj = Saray ( Palace )
MAhalu = Mahalle ( District )
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Dzamija is Arabic
Sokak is also Arabic
Seftalija is not Turkish /dunno from what language.
Sandzak is Turkic from the verb sanch-*
Secer is of Sanskrit
Saray is Persian
Mahalu is Arabic
Dugme is Turkic it is from the verb tug-*
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kilic
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Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 08:13 |
hello people, I am new, I trust your research skills. I have heard from a Norwegian barman ,who was reading a book about ottoman military that, the word bazooka comes from bashibozuk s in the ottoman military. But I could not find any supporting idea in the net about it. do you know anything about this?
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Mordoth
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Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 17:15 |
Since Turks taught those words ; It means , they are sent from Turkish into Bosniak language ..
Torba - Torba
Ovic - Oglu ( the son of )
e.g. I'm Markovic , the descends of Mark , Markoglu
bashibozuk
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If Electricity Comes from Electrons ; does Morality come from Morons :|
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 09:03 |
Originally posted by kilic
hello people, I am new, I trust your research skills. I have heard from a Norwegian barman ,who was reading a book about ottoman military that, the word bazooka comes from bashibozuk s in the ottoman military. But I could not find any supporting idea in the net about it.
do you know anything about this?
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Bazooka is a word invented by Robin 'Bazooka' Burns. Has nothing to do with bashibozuks.
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