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Spartakus
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Joined: 22-Nov-2004
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Topic: Genocide of the Pontian Greeks Posted: 14-May-2006 at 15:00 |
Plz,stay on topic.Because if you do not,and this topic gets closed,i will promise you ,you will regret entering this site, both Hellens and Turks.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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xristar
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
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Posts: 1028
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:47 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
For the Greek speakers only, here is an "interesting" site regarding the Pontians ... no offense intended!
http://www.geocities.com/pontos10/index.html
Disclaimer: Greek nationalist beware that the site may contain offensive material to your ego, and if you believe you are too proud to handle it, please kindly refrain from visiting. The author takes no liabiltiy for any damage that can be incurred on your national ego. |
You got to be kidding! Did you check the bottom banner-link? It says 'find out the truth about Greek history'. I was curious what it would be. Then I saw the link was 'http://www.geocities.com./ bulgarmak/history_greek.htm', and realized there's no reason to go further. I won't comment arguable facts of recent history, where everyone can have his oppinion based on the numerous different sources. I'll stick to unarguable facts. It says things as ' Cyprus was never Greek'. Well, ok... ' Decendants of Kafres from Ethiopia the Greeks. Results of scientific research in Skopje based on DNA'. Not only its unhistorical, its also racist. ' Belasica 1014. The worst crime of world history'. Yeah, right. The fact that Basil let the Bulgarian prisoners live makes him actually much more humane than most of the medieval rulers, who would massacre any city they captured. ' The origin of the word Graikos (Greek). Ancient Slavic word meaning 'sinner' Oh, of course when the Romans were calling us Greeks the 'ancient slavs' were killing mammoths in Siberia, and building igloos with their bones. Of course then I went to the main page, to see the title 'Bulgarian human rights in Macedonia' and the joke was over. Its no fun to comment how a ultranationalist Bulgarian believes there's no such thing as Greece, and Greek nation. Pontos sector is actually minor to all the crap in this site. Really bad for your image, bg_turk, that you tried 'to break our ego' with such bullsh*t. What you do is to provoke us, and seriously, that's how the national egos are built. When you see Bulgarians provoking us in a such grotesk way, all you do is create a -wrong probably- despical of Bulgarians. And really, we Greeks do not have a bad oppinion for Bulgarians, at least as much as it seems Bulgarians have for us. (This oppinion I expressed is not only based on here. It's based by my general experience in historical forums for about 5 years. Bulgarians seem to hate us, I dare say more than the Turks. The Turks are perhaps too proud of their nation, that are blind some times to see the truth. But they do not hate us. I've seen many Bulgarians infiltrating threads only to accuse the Greeks. That's just sad).
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:26 |
Not Even My Name is the unforgettable story of Sano Halo's survival of the death march at age 10 that annihilated her family as told to her daughter, Thea and the poignant mother/ daughter pilgrimage to Turkey in search of Sano's home 70 years after her exile. Sano, a Pontic Greek from a mountain village near the Black Sea, also recounts her ancient, pastoral way of life in the Pontic Mountians.
The dreadful realization that something was amiss came little by little to Sano's village. Strangers began to inhabit the fields and forests, always watching from a distance like birds of prey. Turkish soldiers made periodic raids to seize men for slave labor in foul, lice-infested labor camps, where most died of disease, malnutrition and exposure. Then in the spring of 1920, Turkish soldiers pounded on doors with the butts of their rifles and shouted General Mustafa Kemal's (Ataturk) proclamation: "You are to leave this place. You are to take with you only what you can carry " On their death march, victims lay where they fell and buzzards hung above their heads. So ended the 3,000 year history of the Pontic Greeks in Turkey.
Stripped of everything she had ever held dear, even her name, at age 15 Sano was sold into marriage to a man who brought her to America. He was three times her age. Not Even My Name follows Sano's marriage, the raising of her ten children, and her transformation from an innocent girl who lived an ancient way of life in a remote place, to a nurturing mother and determined woman in twentieth-century New York City.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:17 |
I will not also tolerate to use any kind of Hellenic brutality during the Greco-Turkish war to mislead the conversation.Nothing can justify a genocide.Such behaviour shows only weakness in finding arguments.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
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Location: Greek Macedonia
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:12 |
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
LOL...so both armenians and greeks use the same picture to put Turks in the defendant'schair before the international community?
Do these crappy propagandalists really believe that the international community is so ignorant to belive them immediately?..Maybe they wanna benefit from previous opinious held about the Turks.Let us remember the very fact that sterotypes are more likely to be effective when they agree with the prevously held opinions.
The International community should be well aware of the fact that by the treaty of Lusanne in 1923,which was signed after The Turkish Independence of War,The Greek human beings themselves acknowledged the atrocities committed by the Pan-Hellenist army,which invaded Turkey after the First world war(1919-1922).
According to this treaty Hellas was in charge of compensation for the systematic burnings of cities in western Turkey and massacres committed against the Turks.
Due to the fact that the economy of Hellas was so weak that time after the war,Greece tried to alleviate it by giving Karaagac,some territory
Fabricating history is intellectual vandalism
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Thi photo came from the US National Geographic. So if you have any question from whom, where and what those appeared in the picture they will responce you.
As about the attrocities Greece (not genocide) as Democratic nation accepted and recognized as you said in the Lausagne Treaty.If happened any kind of genocide why turkish side never mention this in the Treauty ?
What about your nation.Why deny something that happened and recognized from many non-Greek sourses ?
And I am talking only for the Pontian Genocide and not the armenian according the AE forum rules.
Edited by akritas
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Spartakus
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:11 |
I brought link from wiki.Moreover,you do not understand ,do you?This picture shows the tactic used by the Turks for the ethnic cleansing of the Pontian Hellens.I do not know whether this specific image shows Armenians or Pontians Hellens,maybe they are Hellens,but the ethnic cleansing of more than 300.000 Hellens of Pontus is a fact,(i do not know about the Armenians) and the specific tactic,the Light Death ,was repeadetly used by Turks.
Beware that denying the Pontian Genocide is personal insult against me,a Hellen of Pontian origin,whose relatives are mostly from Pontus.I will not tolerate to use the Armenian behaviour as a mean to justify Turkish attrocities.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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The Guardian
Shogun
Joined: 12-Jul-2005
Location: United States
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Posts: 237
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:10 |
Greek Genocide? Bring it up to the UN, or the EU, we'll see what happens then.(or is this claim supported by enough documents to be brought up?)
Or has this subject already been brought up?
(so many "brought up" 's)
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It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.
&nb
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akritas
Chieftain
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Location: Greek Macedonia
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 14:03 |
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan
353.000 Greeks... murdered by Turks?
No necessary to discuss on a nonsense.
Does anyone know Mr.Nakratzas here?
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Yes I showed him recently as guest in the Turkish TV when spoke for Greek genocide to the Turks in 1919 as reaction of the Turkish media in Pontian genocide . Also you can buy these books from the Slanmacedonian Organization Uranio Toxo in Greece.
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bg_turk
Sultan
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 13:19 |
For the Greek speakers only, here is an "interesting" site regarding the Pontians ... no offense intended!
http://www.geocities.com/pontos10/index.html
Disclaimer: Greek nationalist beware that the site may contain offensive material to your ego, and if you believe you are too proud to handle it, please kindly refrain from visiting. The author takes no liabiltiy for any damage that can be incurred on your national ego.
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TheDiplomat
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 13:08 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Spartakus
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Isn't this picture used by Armenians?
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Here you can find the same image
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Image:Geno14.JPG
So whoever put this image here, answer please who are the people on the image? Who is the one lying here Turks, Greeks or Armenians - or maybe all of them?!
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LOL...so both armenians and greeks use the same picture to put Turks in the defendant'schair before the international community?
Do these crappy propagandalists really believe that the international community is so ignorant to belive them immediately?..Maybe they wanna benefit from previous opinious held about the Turks.Let us remember the very fact that sterotypes are more likely to be effective when they agree with the prevously held opinions.
The International community should be well aware of the fact that by the treaty of Lusanne in 1923,which was signed after The Turkish Independence of War,The Greek human beings themselves acknowledged the atrocities committed by the Pan-Hellenist army,which invaded Turkey after the First world war(1919-1922).
According to this treaty Hellas was in charge of compensation for the systematic burnings of cities in western Turkey and massacres committed against the Turks.
Due to the fact that the economy of Hellas was so weak that time after the war,Greece tried to alleviate it by giving Karaagac,some territory
Fabricating history is intellectual vandalism
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Jagatai Khan
Chieftain
Jeune Turc
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 12:57 |
353.000 Greeks... murdered by Turks?
No necessary to discuss on a nonsense.
Does anyone know Mr.Nakratzas here?
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bg_turk
Sultan
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 12:34 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Spartakus
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Isn't this picture used by Armenians?
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Here you can find the same image
http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Image:Geno14.JPG
So whoever put this image here, answer please who are the people on the image? Who is the one lying here Turks, Greeks or Armenians - or maybe all of them?!
Edited by bg_turk
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pegasusdi
Janissary
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Location: Turkey
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Posts: 28
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:58 |
'uninvited' imperilaism?? I have never heard of an invited imperialism
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imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
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Leonidas
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:55 |
Originally posted by pegasusdi
Moreover, let's not go into the debate of who are the
first victims of nationalizing policies because i am sure we would be
stuck at that point if we start to discuss emergence of
nationalism in the Balkans and its victims
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tut tut , to bring some context to that nationalism we have to include the uninvited imperialism with all its victims and subjects
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akritas
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:55 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
Good work akritas and Spartakus, i hope this thread's ok when i get back
I want to contribute to.
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Leonidas the investigation of genocide of Pontian Greeks from the Young Turks and Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) arrangement constituted a question taboo for the Greek historical and political science. The Greek-Turkish pact of friendship 1930, the simultaneous integration of Greece and Turkey in the NATO in 1952, but also simultaneously the called approach of two states, constituted points stations and for the Pontian question. They are these parameters that the Genocide of Hellenism of Pontos did not acquire the compurgation that it was imposed it acquires .
But when the Turkish PM ask from the Greeks to stop mention this issue because "disturb" he thinks that talk in his political partie funs!!!
On one side because the political climate did not allow is investigated the crime of mass murders of against Greeks, on the other side when this became after initiative of scientists and intellectual as minimal debt against the collective memory, faced a very hostile environment.
Greek Parliament publishes the book of professor Konstantinos Fotiadis, which argued the murders of 353000 Greeks in the Pontos the interval 1916-1923.The book is separated in 13 chapters which cover the history of Greeks of Pontos, the ethnological situation in the region, the Ottoman reforms and the Young Turks arrangement, that was turned against the Greeks program of Mustafa Kemal arrangement for the crimes in the Pontos. The book includes primary sources, the result of research of writer in government and owned files of former USSR, France, Germany, Great Britain, Austria, Italy, Vatican, Society of Nations and Greece, while is mentioned also rich bibliography in Greek and other languages.
Edited by akritas
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pegasusdi
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:44 |
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Originally posted by pegasusdi
but i
don't think it can be compared to a concentration camp.
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In fact it was much worse than in a typical concentration camp for
prisoners of war.These people(in the amele tamburu) had to face
thurst,hunger,abuse,torture and death in the most cruel ways.
Congratulations akritas for bringing this issue up!
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well, i didn't think that POW camps were meant by concentration camp
because it immediately reminded me of the concentration camps of
Jews in WWII since the issue is about genocide.
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imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
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pegasusdi
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:40 |
Originally posted by akritas
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Congratulations akritas for bringing this issue up!
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Also congratulations and thanks to the Turkish PM that arise
memories via his aggressive policy. US Ambassador Morgenthau's
said that the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea (policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks).
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Well, as a person who has studied some International Relations, i think
it is not fair to say that it is an agressive policy. History has
been a political tool especially in the couple of years regarding
Turkey and its relationship to EU. Thus, the reaction does not
seem to be quite irrelevant if we think about the context.
therefore, i don't think that Greek PM was very surprised to this
reaction.
Moreover, let's not go into the debate of who are the
first victims of nationalizing policies because i am sure we would be
stuck at that point if we start to discuss emergence of
nationalism in the Balkans and its victims
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imagination sets us free to be what we want to be
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akritas
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:32 |
Originally posted by RomiosArktos
Congratulations akritas for bringing this issue up!
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Also congratulations and thanks to the Turkish PM that arise memories via his aggressive policy. US Ambassador Morgenthau's said that the Greeks were the first victims of this nationalizing idea (policy of making Turkey exclusively the country of the Turks).
Germany has confronted its genocidal past and apologised to its victims for the crimes of World War Two. Turkey continues to refuse to follow the example of its traditional ally, preferring to deny any responsibility for the suffering and deaths of so many innocent people.
Edited by akritas
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bg_turk
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:26 |
Originally posted by akritas
Not invovle the Armenians in this thread bg_turk.
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But the image that you give is an image of Armenian deportations and it is presented as such by many Armenian sources. Shall I suppose then that the people on theimage are then both Pontian and Armenian. What does the national geographic article say?
I hope maybe Mamikon or ArmenianSurvival can clear this up, because I really do not have the time to search through Armenian webpages now but I am quite sure i have seen that same image there.
Edited by bg_turk
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Leonidas
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Posted: 14-May-2006 at 10:24 |
Good work akritas and Spartakus, i hope this thread's ok when i get back I want to contribute to.
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