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Topic ClosedEpirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
    Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:09
Originally posted by Yiannis

Achilefs (Achileus) Aspetios
 
Probably this is just a coincidence, but I will still write it.
 
Aq i leht, i shpejt
pronounce - Akhileht' Ispeit'
 
This albanian words mean Lightest and fastest
Now everybody can compare
In greek Achilefs is not pronounced with a strong K but with a glottalized K, and for this sound i used "kh"
 
we have
Akhilefs Aspetios V.S. Akhileht'Ispeit'
 
I thought they are very very similar. But still is up on everybody to analyse and to comment.
 
Addendum, in the Illiad Homerus referred to the Achilles well known speed.
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:26
Originally posted by Arbr Z

The ancient greeks used to divide their world in two parts, the hellenes, and the barbarians (the foreigners, those who didn't have greek culture and civilisation) the word gained other meanings with the time.
When I was talking about mixed populations, i didnt mean mixed like hellenes marrying illyrians etc. I mean  mixed like one region where you could line no clear border between the ethnicities. The hellenic tribes confined the illyrian ones and viceversa. The Epirus noble families gave their children greek education, and so they started hellenizing, but this dont mean that the populace hellenized entirely. Analogy: Alexander the Macedonian, which of course was educated as a greek and had a hellenic conscience, or Aristotle, one of the most known ancient greek philosophers (from macedonia), by their political opponents (among them a prominent oratorius) were denominated as barbarians, or semi-barbarians. I dont want to doubt about their being hellenes, but this is just to remind that Macedonia or Epirus never were totally greek, but only partially. In Epirus there was a strong Illyrian element (we cannot talk about minorities or majorities) and in Macedonia there was a strong thracian element. So, the people that came from this regions, even though they could be pureblood hellenes, could be labelled as "barbarians" or "semi-barbarians".

Many scholars agree that the majority of the ancient Greeks found difficult to see beyond the horizon of the city-state or to overcome the limitations that slavery and other facts of their life imposed upon their sight. That is to say, the ancient Greeks did not reach the picture of a world-society in which not only those who enjoy Hellenic culture, not only the wise, but all peoples, or at any rate all civilized peoples, have a place. These research findings explain why many ancient Greeks called the ancient Macedonians or Epirotans  uncivilized barbarians .

According Thucydides, Andriotis, Hatzidakis,Hammond and Wilkes, in the eyes of many ancient Greeks, the Macedonians, the Epirotes, as well as the Boeotians,Aetolians and the Thessalians were barbarian, uncivilized Greek tribes. Thus, Andriotis also argues that the designation barbarian was attributed by ancient writers to other uncivilized Greek tribes, as well, such as the Epirote tribe of Chaones (Thuc. 2.80) . Hatzidakis agrees on this asserting that as was the case with Macedonians, some included Macedonia and Epirus in Greece, while others did not. Thucydides speaks of the barbarian Chaones in B.80, while in 81 it is mentioned that the Thesprotians and the Molossi were also barbarians, according to Thucydides .

As i said the previous writers  (add also Wilcken) affirms that the term barbarian Macedonian or Epirotan  is not used in an ethnological sense, but with a derogatory cultural meaning. Admitting that, for some ancient Greeks, the Macedonians were an uncivilized Greek tribe, Hatzidakis says that for that reason many excluded certain tribes from the national community, for they were considered to be inferior compared with the general national civilization .

read and this

 
what Srabo mention for the meaning of the Barbarian.
 
As about the definition of the geographical place of the Epirus we must consider the era that we want to speak. E.g. in the past the East Epirus was a part of the Macedonia. The Thracian or the Illyrian Element is not to much strong according the archaelogical finds.Illyrian tomps we have find in North Albania but not in the South (North Epirus). Thracian elements we have found in the Thrace(Greece,Turkey and Bulgaria) but in Macedonia we have'nt find. There is influence like religion but not ito much in order to say strong

Edited by akritas - 02-Jun-2006 at 12:33
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:33
If we continue in this way, please explain me why the barbarian illyrians were not greeks?And what about the thracians or the italic tribes?We dont have documents of their language, as we don't have documents of the language fo macedonia and epirus.It is normal that the higher strata could use greek in some period.
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:40

We don't have only the language but and other facts that define one ancient civilization.Tombs, tumulus, weapons, artifacts, ceramic and many others archaeological foundings . Mycenaic type of tumulus we have found in Ephesus, Pella and Epirus. Illyrian tumulus or artifacts we have find in North Albania, Bosnia(Glamoc), Slovenia e.t.c.



Edited by akritas - 02-Jun-2006 at 12:40
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:53
Originally posted by akritas

We don't have only the language but and other facts that define one ancient civilization.Tombs, tumulus, weapons, artifacts, ceramic and many others archaeological foundings . Mycenaic type of tumulus we have found in Ephesus, Pella and Epirus. Illyrian tumulus or artifacts we have find in North Albania, Bosnia(Glamoc), Slovenia e.t.c.

 
Have you ever visited the antic city of Bylis, near Apollonia?Or the archaeological sites between Kora and Pogradec?(in the south of ohrid lake). Or the Dimalion and Antipatrea (in the berati region). Do you know what is an illyrian helm, and how does it differ from the greek helm?Do you know the differences between illyrian swords, knifes and spears and the greek ones?In albania you can see both of the types and compare them, I invite you to visit the national museum in Tirana, and even the archaeological museums in other cities of southern albania. Of course there was greek culture, we have found vases and amphores and also armours, but generally in the areas of Buthrotvm, Foinike, Apollonia and Dyrrachion. What about the Achiles coincidence, what do you think?
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 13:38
I think that we have problem how to understanding the historical boundaries of Epirus. Below is a map  according the Ptolemeus Geography.You can see the borders of Illyria, and Epirus.
 
 
 
 
 
The ancient city of Bullis is known that  residents were the Illyrian tribe of Bulliones. Dimmallum also is a region that belong in the ancient Illyrian Kingdon.
 
 
 
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 13:52
According this map Byllis falls in Epirus. And illyrian settlements were found in Korcca region, as well as near mount Tamaron (Tomorri). And as i mentioned before there are many illyrian archaeological remains and tumbs found in the Gjirokastra region. One of the known sites is near Saranda. As i already said, there were as well hellenic uttensiles and artifacts.They have been catallogued and are in the albanian museums (most of them in National Museum of Tirana). As i said, you can visit Tirana freely, you ll find warm hospitality, as albanians always welcomed visitors from all countries, specially neighbours (communism era excluded).
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:03
I have visited your country twice.The ones was in the Alia era.
Now in the topic. Can you tell me why all the modern writers (Wilkes,Hammond,Borza e.t.c.) segerate the Epirotans from the Illyrians and fit them  to the Greeks ?
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Posts: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:23
No, the word barbarian didn't mean non-Greek all the times. For instance Plato calls Lesbians as barbarian because he couldn't get their Aeolian dialect. After Thucydides the term mean "uncivilized" or peasant.

gods: Do you know that many Turks visis Saint george's monastir in Propontis to pray ?? They are not Greeks, right ??

This popylation's mixture is referred by Strabo: "what was undoubtely Greece is now habited by barbarians: Macedonia by Thracians ....." But the very word mixture means difference. So Macedonians weren't Thracians.

Achilefs name seems similar to those Albanian words because both Albanian and Greek are IE languages. If you Albanians had ANY written text OLDER than Homer poems with that name of Achhiles, we could believe that the name had Illyrian origin.

We have Macedonian names, toponyms and we have now Pella katadesmos. We do know that Macedonians spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. So, I think it is very stupid to argue about Macedonians' Greekness.






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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:28
Originally posted by akritas

I have visited your country twice.The ones was in the Alia era.
Now in the topic. Can you tell me why all the modern writers (Wilkes,Hammond,Borza e.t.c.) segerate the Epirotans from the Illyrians and fit them  to the Greeks ?
 
Alia was in communism eraConfused
 
Anyway, not all the modern historians, and not all the ancient historians. I am working on something right now, and I beg your pardon for not posting you links, but I will do later on. But you can search on google, history of ancient epirus, and you will see those who fit them to the hellenes, and those who segregate them from the hellenes.Anyway, I will also post my references later. Now, what do you think of what i wrote for Achilles?
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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:40
Originally posted by Arbr Z

The ancient greeks used to divide their world in two parts, the hellenes, and the barbarians (the foreigners, those who didn't have greek culture and civilisation) the word gained other meanings with the time.
When I was talking about mixed populations, i didnt mean mixed like hellenes marrying illyrians etc. I mean  mixed like one region where you could line no clear border between the ethnicities. The hellenic tribes confined the illyrian ones and viceversa. The Epirus noble families gave their children greek education, and so they started hellenizing, but this dont mean that the populace hellenized entirely. Analogy: Alexander the Macedonian, which of course was educated as a greek and had a hellenic conscience, or Aristotle, one of the most known ancient greek philosophers (from macedonia), by their political opponents (among them a prominent oratorius) were denominated as barbarians, or semi-barbarians. I dont want to doubt about their being hellenes, but this is just to remind that Macedonia or Epirus never were totally greek, but only partially. In Epirus there was a strong Illyrian element (we cannot talk about minorities or majorities) and in Macedonia there was a strong thracian element. So, the people that came from this regions, even though they could be pureblood hellenes, could be labelled as "barbarians" or "semi-barbarians".


How do you explain the fact that Aristoteles called Philip a barbarian when he burned down Stagira? They were both from Macedonia... There are other more accurate words for "foreigner", but a non-native speaker can't know that. Barbarian means also "ignorant" f.ex.

Hylding Thylander (Swedish Historian of the university of Frescati, Stockholm) writes about migrations of the proto-Hellinic tribes at the area of Epirus way before the indo-european invations. The Illyrians showed up around 4000 B.C and didn't settle directly in what was called Illyria. There's a big time gap there between the two civilizations. I do believe though in minorities, at least in the beginning of the formation of the Epirotan Kindoms. However, with the Illyrian migration southwest, it is possible(or maybe I should say certain) that Illyrian villages showed up here and there. They never created a Kindom at the area but I do believe they were coexisting peacefully with the rest of the populations. Why wouldn't be possible that many of them mixed with other tribes?

By they way...I should remind you that Olympiada, mother of Alexander teached him that he was descended of Achilleus, who became Alexanders role model. Many of the Epirotan/Macedonian Kings were not natives of the area but from the southern parts of Greece e.g Argos. That's a good reason why the Epirotans were one way or another Hellinized.

Now I'll remind you as well that the first settlers of Thrace were Cadmeians (a Graeco-Phoenician, proto-Hellinic tribe according to George Rawlingson),  followed some milleniums later by several groups of proto Anatolians (Indo-European Hellinic tribes). So Thracians though they were a mix of people, they're not at all unrelated to the rest of the Hellinic tribes.


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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:41

Proud Macedonian Istor, you who know IE languages, please tell me the meaning of Achilles Aspetios in greek, and inform me about other similarities in other IE languages.

I am not arguing about anyones greekness, and this topic is not on macedonia.The Pella Catadesmos, interesting indeed, but when did it date??Did you read the posts related to the helenization of the higher strata?
 
Regarding my modest comparative example on Achilles, i mentioned that I was comparing Modern Albanian to Archaic Greek (Yannis told me about the pronunciation). That is because we dont have documents on the illyrian language, and also from many other languages. But this doesnt mean that the languages who were documented later should not be taken into consideration.
 
And again, in the modern times everybody knows what nationallity he has. I know I am an albanian from south albania (northern-epirus), you know you are a greek-macedonian, and a slav-macedonian knows what he is. There is no need to decide on the nationality of the people who are still breathing. We are discussing about ancient people...
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:46
If proto-hellenic and hellenic came from phoenicia and anatolia, then how come dorians invaded greece from the north?Were the greeks coming from everywhere?
Which are the non indoeuropean elements in archaic greek language?
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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:53
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

We dont have documents of their language, as we don't have documents of the language fo macedonia and epirus.It is normal that the higher strata could use greek in some period.


Just a minute my friend...Now you stated something that you haven't ever heard about. We don't have Macedonian documents? We have more than enough...Coins, inscriptions, tombs you name it...

And about the first settlers of Epirus I mentioned before...The oldest findings are typical red-yellow keramics with pelasgian symbols like the Maiandros. Similar pelasgian art was found in the site of Sesklos and the Island of Thassos. These findings confirm Rawlingsons theories about the migration of the proto-Hellinic tribes (Pelasgians, Cadmeians). There's a continuity in the findings across all areas that tend to dissappear when we move north in non-hellinic ground. I wish I had more time to give you more details about the findings and the art...I'll be back cause it's really interresting.


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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:00
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

If proto-hellenic and hellenic came from phoenicia and anatolia, then how come dorians invaded greece from the north?Were the greeks coming from everywhere?
Which are the non indoeuropean elements in archaic greek language?


I hope this extract from George Rawlingson answers your question

" Of all the answers that had reached him, this pleased him far the best, for it seemed incredible that a mule should ever come to be king of the Medes, and so he concluded that the sovereignty would never depart from himself or his seed after him. Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the one being a Pelasgic the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, [1] they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus*. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.

The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic**, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians."

PS: In case you get confused with the terms...The inhabitants of Fthiotis were the first to call themselves hellenes.


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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:22
Arbez as I see I am not debate with links or generally with web sources. I gave a lot  of known writers as example for the origin of the Epirotans.I gave you archaelogical findings that also support my claim.I will wait yours.
Your  claiming  as about the connections of the  Albanian language with the archaic language born  from  a Greek writer naming Kollias (Arvanites and the Origin of the Greeks). His effort to connect your language with the archaic Greek via Pelasgian  in order to proove that Arvanites-Albanian-Greeks are the same collapse from several writers.
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Posts: 598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:34
Hey I mentioned an example and made a question. Saying that someone else collapsed is not an argument. So please tell me, do you find it a coincidence?
 
Regarding what you said, i know a land called Fthia, but not a land called fthiots.
 
In the paragraphe you quoted i noticed "the first being pelasgian and the second greek". But I am probably ignoring the fact that in ancient greek such words as barbarian, pelasgian etc had different meanings, and were referred to ignorants.
 
I believe it is impossible for a language to keep the same form through the centuries, so your author was wrong in this point. Ancient greek was not modern greek. It had words that now are not in use, and it had words that werent in use since 5th century BC.
 
The pelasgian walls and the pelasgian ceramic or terracotta is present all over albania and even kosova, this is for sure.
 
Anyway, it is a pleasure being part of this debate, you guys look really moderated and i like thisClapWink
It is true, this is interesting
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Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:50

According Herodotos Greeks and Pelasgians were diffrent nations (ethnoi) and spoke also diffrent languages. So any connection between them via the language is not sustain. Now if we accept that Linear A is Pelasgian then is diffrent from the Archaic Greek for two reasons. The first one is Linear  ** when the Greek one  is  the first complete C&V Alphabetic. With the assitance of the archaic Greek  the Linear B  beeing decipherment.When I say archaic Greek mean the Homeric and not the Classical (Dorian,Aeolian and Attica)

You mention coincidence. Below is a text written in English but the words are Greek.This is not mean that the English language came from the Greek.

These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic

I am glad also this kind of debate.Smile

I am almost 40, that's why I met the communism in the Balkan countries via traveling.
 
**edit


Edited by akritas - 02-Jun-2006 at 18:45
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Posts: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 17:12
Axilleus ( ending -eus is exclusively Greek), is from  a (=non, negative) and cheleion (= shield) =  who needs no shield. There are some other possible etymologies. Please do not attempt to make etymology if you haven't studied Greek and other IE language in depth. Aspetios is an adjective for Achilles and means aspetos that is who cannot be described by words = BIG, POWERFULL, STRONG ... The word aspetos is related to English speak.

Modern Greek word from cheleion is chelona (turtle).

Pella Katadsmos is as old as 350BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_Katadesmos

You are right about language and centuries. A Language cannot keep the same form for centuries. So, don't attempt to etymologize ancient Greek names with modern Albanian words.
I think that peoples who came in Greece from the south weren't proto-Greek. They just have been hellenized by time. All Greeks were living in Pindus before 2000 BC and then started the big migration to the south. First Ionians-Aeolians and then Dorians.

It's SlavoSkopians who argue about our Macedonians' Greekness.

I am glad too for there is an Albanian here to talk seriously with us, Greeks.


Edited by Istor the Macedonian - 02-Jun-2006 at 17:18
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Posts: 0 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 18:01
Now, as I have mentioned it before, the Illyrians were not a totally different ethnic culture, they had almost the same religion with the hellenes (probably using some different names for some of the gods). So, the Dodona oracle was a holy shrine for both entities.

i agree.
Epirus is also a very special area, and the tribes arrived there from the north they must have co-existed with Illyrian tribes.
Later on, the space where Greece is today was overpopulated, and colonized all directions.


Back to the topic, Epirus started to hellenize in the 5th century BC and this process continued.

just a though from me, since Epirus is the "ancient Greece" of the ancients, the culture evolution gap between them and the ancients of 500BC, is similar to the one ancients of 500BC have, with the modern ones nowadays.


But through the times it remained a land inhabitated by illyrians and hellenes, todays greek and albanians. There has never been an absolute border dividing those entities.

I agree. We can't generate maps with chalklines for the older times, especially the ancient times, when i doubt there was also border police. There were some areas of control only, anyone could come in or go as settlers.


His effort to connect your language with the archaic Greek via Pelasgian  in order to proove that Arvanites-Albanian-Greeks are the same collapse from several writers.

He has done a good work, saving interesting information for songs, language. Ofcourse with some mistakes, but every writer does. His result is what matters to me, that Albanians and Greeks are the closest related to each other groups of the Balkans. This ain't a new thing, introduced by this writer, but an ancient truth, that has to do with this very subject, Epirus as well.

It is known that because of similarity in behaviour and appearence, Greeks use the words "una fatsa, una raca" with the Italians. We should use this phrase 10 times more for the Albanians



Edited by Kotsos - 02-Jun-2006 at 18:15

nje faqe nje fare
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