Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
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Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
Posted By: akritas
Subject: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 19:52
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Ancient writers make a very clear segeration between Illyrians and Epirotans.I begin with Strabo The remainder of Europe consists of the country which is between the Ister and the encircling sea, beginning at the recess of the Adriatic and extending as far as the Sacred Mouth of the Ister. In this country are Greece and the tribes of the Macedonians and of the Epeirotes, and all those tribes above them whose countries reach to the Ister and to the seas on either side, both the Adriatic and the Pontic — to the Adriatic, the Illyrian tribes, and to the other sea as far as the Propontis and the Hellespont, the Thracian tribes and whatever Scythian or Celtic tribes are intermingled with them. and And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes. Strabo segerated the Illyrian tribes from the Epirotans Tribes. Except Strabo that make a clearly segeration between Epirotans and Illyrians there some others proofs that show these axiomatic truths are truths recognized by the simplest order of reasoning ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 21:40
They could be athird group, united to Greeks by latter history and partial assimilation. Just an idea to divert... 
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NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 22:24
In agreement with this, here is what Aristotle wrote in his work Meteorologica: Greek text: "...ἀλλ’ ὥσπερ ὁ καλούμενος ἐπὶ Δευκαλίωνος κατακλυσμό ς· καὶ γὰρ οὗτος περὶ τὸν Ἑλληνικὸν ἐγένετο τόπον μάλιστα, καὶ τούτου περὶ τὴν Ἑλλάδα τὴν ἀρχαίαν. αὕτη δ’ ἐστὶν ἡ περὶ Δωδώνην καὶ τὸν Ἀχελῷον· οὗτος γὰρ πολλαχοῦ τὸ ῥεῦμα μεταβέβληκ εν· ᾤκουν γὰρ οἱ Σελλοὶ ἐνταῦθα καὶ οἱ καλούμενοι τότε μὲν Γραικοὶ νῦν δ’ Ἕλληνες..." Translation: "The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes." Also keep in mind that the oracle at Dodona was the oldest Hellenic oracle and in terms of importance for ancient Greeks it was second only to the oracle at Delphi. ------------- 
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 04:25
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Is known that before the archaelogical findinings in Dodona in the end of the 18th cent Epirotans considered from the majority of the Greeks as Hellenized Illyrian tribes. So your idea is good. That's is my point of this thread.To hear any opposite oppinion -------------
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Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 04:48
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The Epirotans were Greeks and especially the Mollosians were relatives
of the Dorian Macedonians.There is no doubt about their being Greeks. Only in northern Epirus,present day southern Albania were there Greek tribes of Pelasgian origin like the Haones who were speaking both their Greek dialect and possibly an Illyrian dialect.The Haones and the Dassarites must have been billinguals. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 11:20
But the question would be: Dodona, while surely going back several centuries more, dates its oldest buildings from 350 BCE only. Greek ethnicity has been the dominat one in Greece since at least 1600 BCE. How do you fill that gap? The Molosses or Epirotes could still be a non-Greek tribe that was Hellenized in the course of centuries. Moreover, I think that some have suggested a simmilar origin for Dorians themselves: Urnfields tribes that became Hellenized. The fact tat Dorians practiced funerary cremation could help this viewpoint. So, after all, Dorian presence in Epirus by itself doesn't seem to prove the Hellenicity of this region. I feel that Greeks tend "naturally" to see their country as a continuous thing since the shadows of Prehistory. And that's basically correct, as History only starts when Greeks are solidly stabilished and the names of Pelasges, Leleges, Curetes, Trojans and others are but a shadowy memory. But, on the other hand, it's also quite clear that the Bronze and Early Iron Ages' processes in Greece, including ethnogenesis and possible submission and assimilation of other peoples, are far from settled. So one may consider Epirotan origins in this general lack of definition. Epirotans were Greeks in the 3rd century BCE and before... but how long before? When did they become Greeks? As soon as the other Greeks, in the early or middle 2nd milennium? Before? Later? The question is nt wether they were Greeks but since when? -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 12:28
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 18:27
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I'm just curious. I wonder if the temple, as it stood before 2000 BCE, when it was an oracle of Gaia was Greek (understood as Greek-speaker) or it was pre-Hellenic. A cult centered on Gaia rather talks of pre-IE times, when a cult to a Mother Godess was very apparent in both the Balcans and Central Europe, as well as in the Near East and probably in most other places from India to the Atlantic. To me the transfer to Zeus is probably the very sign of Hellenization, understood as assimilation of the pre-IE natives into the IE-speaking Greek culture. I'm not very sure about the dates of IE (Greek-speaker) infiltration in the different regions of Greece but they seem to start pretty early maybe c. 2000 BCE too. Of course Epirus, being mountainous and economically secondary, had a god chance of evading the first waves and be assimilated later and in a less intense way. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 18:37
| Zeus worshipped at the oracle of Dodona was also called Pelasgios(=Pelasgian).So maybe there is really a connection with pre-IE natives,or maybe the term pelasgian when used by the Greeks of the classical era meant just something very very old. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 14:38
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Achilles offers sacrifice to Zeus and calls him: "Äßá ôçò Äùäþíçò, ðñùôïêýâåñíå, ðåëáóãéêÝ ðïõ ìÝíåéò ìáêñéÜ, ôçí ðáãåñÞ áöåíôåýïíôáò Äùäþíç, êáé ôñïãýñá ÷áìïêïéôÜìåíïé áíéöôüðïäïé, æïõí ïé Óåëëïß, ïé äéêïß óïõ ðñïöÞôåò..." Meaning:"Zeus of Dodona, Pelasgic one, who lives afar ruling in cold Dodona and there live the Selloi, your prophets, sleeping on the ground and never washing their feet...". Greek heroes often consult Dodona before they start their endeavors and we see that from mythical times, such as the Argonautic journey or Kreon at the war described at 7 epi Thivas. Some attribute the term (H)ellenas to the Selli (Elloi). Selloi, does not only mean the priests but also the residents of the Dodona area. The prophets were also called "Tomouroi", meaning "hyde-keepers". They were also called "Xamaikoites", (those who sleep on the ground) and apparently there was a whole sect of priests, with different ranks and priestesses also. One of their obligations was celibacy. Apparently similar arrangements existed in Vedic India at the time. Coincidence or common origin, is had to be determined. Maju, your input to this issue would be greatly appreciated as you have more knowledge than me on the matter. The priests had to be in contact with the earth, that was the reason why they slept on the ground and had to walk barefoot and not wash their feet in order to keep this link. Zeus, in one of his forms, was worshipped as "Chthonic" (of the earth) and was linked to the growth of crops and fruits of the earth. Dione was considered either as a female representation of Zeus or as his wife and was also chthonic. The decadence of the Oracle started after the unfortunate advise that the priests gave to the Athenians, regarding their disastrous Sicilian expedition, although the priests attributed the disaster to the misconception of the prophecy. The death blow was delivered by the Aetolian general Dorimachos, who destroyed it to punish the Epirotes, for entering the Achaen/Macedonian alliance. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 17:05
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I think that Indo-Europe connections are not only Indo-European but many seem rather pre-IE, belonging rather to the Neolithic era, before IEs enter the scene. The Cthonic and Matristic forms of religion seem to belong to that age - wich seems to have left many reminders in Greek mythology, among others. I'm inclined to see in this one of the many connections of Greece with its own pre-Greek (pre-IE) period - of course it's open to interpretation. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 17:47
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Ancient Epirus, was a region of somewhat uncertain ethnic definition and various movements of populations. While it is certain for example by modern historians, that the Epirote royal houses, most notably the royal house of Molossis, had an greek genealogy, going back to Achilles, there are raised a few doubts over the ethnicity of the different Epirote groups/ethnes residing on Epirus region. However there are certain tribes who were “ilyrrizein“ as ancient historians claim, meaning were speaking ilyrrian, the vast majority of populations involved, evidentially seem to have been Greek-speakers, with first of all, Molossians. Eventhough they were not universally regarded as “Greeks” but were labeled by a few sources as “barbarians”, (i.e Thucydides), on the other hand they never were called Illyrians. The label “barbarian” could be explained perhaps by underlining their ’uncivilized’ culture - according to other greeks - in comparison with the general national civilization, which made the rest of Greeks to view Epirotes with a derogatory cultural view and a huge difference in their organization as they were organized in tribal groups called 'ethne' which were made up from smaller tribes (phylae) compared with the city-states of Greece. Of course here we have to examine the ancient sources and archaeological findings that could easily give us a wider view of the ethnicity of Epirotes and their royal houses. For example, Pindar, obviously sang to the Molossians in Greek, which would be unlikeable if Molossians couldnt speak Greek. Another case, worthy of mention, is the one of Kleisthenes, tyrant of Sikyon. At the begining of 6th Century, Kleisthenes, wished to find a husband for his daughter Agariste (he made the proclamation at Olympia, where presumably only Greeks were present) and one of the suitors was the Molossian Alkon, who is mentioned without a patronymic. Alkon could be easily a member of the royal house - even a King of Molossis, but this is not certain. If the case is that Alkon was one normal (non-royal) Molossian citizen, then we have a plain proof that Molossians, not members of royal house, were considered Greek by Greeks. If not, its the tip of the iceberg that members of the Royal house of Molossis (members of this royal house were among others, Olympias, the mother of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus) were undoubtely Greek in the eyes of Greeks. By the 5th century, we find Themistocles seeking refuge at the court of a Molossian King Admetus, having no problem to communicate and later we know that Tharyps - Admetus son - had been educated in Athens and brought new customs to his people. In reference to archaeological findings, the conclusive evidence is in the decrees of the Molossian state, c. 369 BC which are entirely Greek in language, onomastics and tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. Furthermore these decrees were deposited at Dodona (perhaps the most famous Greek oracle and under Molossian control since the early fifth century) and they are Greek incriptions written not in a learned artificial language but in a nothern Greek dialect. Considering this, It would be again safe to conclude that Molossians were greek-speakers. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecateaus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimiotae, we can say with confidence that these tribes were greek-speaking too, as it is incoceivable that such a cluster included tribes speaking different languages. Furthermore inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellenistic period but nevertheless Scylax, describing the region around 380, put the southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that Chaones didnt speak Illyrian. In addition the acceptance of Chaones into the Epirote Alliance in 330 suggests strongly that they were also greek-speaking. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 09:31
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http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D126 - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus%3At ext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D6%3Achapter%3D126 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text.jsp?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=6:chapter=127 - From http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=1000080" target=gazetteer>Italy came Smindyrides of http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Sybaris , son of Hippocrates, the most luxurious liver of his day (and http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Sybaris was then at the height of its prosperity), and Damasus of http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Siris , son of that Amyris who was called the Wise. [2] These came from http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=1000080" target=gazetteer>Italy ; from the Ionian Gulf, Amphimnestus son of Epistrophus, an Epidamnian; he was from the Ionian Gulf. From http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=7002678" target=gazetteer>Aetolia came Males, the brother of that Titormus who surpassed all the Greeks in strength, and fled from the sight of men to the farthest parts of the Aetolian land. [3] From the http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=7017076" target=gazetteer>Peloponnese came Leocedes, son of Phidon the tyrant of http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Argos , that Phidon who made weights and measures for the Peloponnesians1 and acted more arrogantly than any other Greek; he drove out the Elean contest-directors and held the contests at http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Olympia himself. This man's son now came, and Amiantus, an Arcadian from http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Trapezus , son of Lycurgus; and an Azenian from the town of Paeus, Laphanes, son of that Euphorion who, as the Arcadian tale relates, gave lodging to the Dioscuri, and ever since kept open house for all men; and Onomastus from http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Elis , son of Agaeus. [4] These came from the http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=7017076" target=gazetteer>Peloponnese itself; from Athens Megacles, son of that Alcmeon who visited Croesus, and also Hippocleides son of Tisandrus, who surpassed the Athenians in wealth and looks. From http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=" target=gazetteer>Eretria , which at that time was prosperous, came Lysanias; he was the only man from http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=7002677" target=gazetteer>Euboea . From http://www.getty.edu/vow/TGNFullDisplay?find=&place=&nation=&english=Y&subjectid=7001399" target=gazetteer>Thessaly came a Scopad, Diactorides of Crannon; and from the Molossians, Alcon. From the book of "Royal genealogies" around the world, written in 19th C.
Conclusion is that as early as 580 B.C, it is obvious the Molossian king was considered Greek and his country a part of Hellas, as he was invited and participated as suitor, in a limited "only-for-Greeks" assembly. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 15:37
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The oldest archaelogical evidence that show the Greekness of the Epirotans was a Prehistoric vase as also and the tumulus consrtuction. Kantharos-shaped cup from grave 5 of tumulus A at Merope-Pogonion (district of Ioannina). Traces of black paint are preserved on the lower part of the body (h. 0,184 m.).Tumulus are built in the classical mucenean (as called) and found not only in Epirus but also and in Macedonia. Both are dated to the end of the 11th or the beginning of the 10th century B.C. Here a map of the Dodona
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 10:17
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I've got some material on this matter by Hilding Thylander [Swedish humanistic institution]. He
starts his book "The greek world" with a study on the pre-indoeuropean
cultures of Greece. "Back in 1958, new excavations were made in
Biotia, Elis (Fthiotida), Epirus, the Ionian Islands and Thessali. It's
clear that those lands were inhabited by Hellinic tribes before 20 000 B.C". His statements agree with George Rawlinson theories. Rawlinson has made a great research based also in the sayings of Herodotus: This one is important...His report on the Cadmeians: The Cadmeians were the Graeco-Phoenician race (their name merely signifying "the Easterns"), who in the ante-Trojan times, occupied the country which was afterwards called Boeotia. Hence the Greek tragedians, in plays of which ancient Thebes is the scene, invariably speak of the Thebans. Now read the extract from his research about the Early Greeks: Of all the answers that had reached him, this pleased him far the best, for it seemed incredible that a mule should ever come to be king of the Medes, and so he concluded that the sovereignty would never depart from himself or his seed after him. Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the one being a Pelasgic the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, [1] they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus*. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians. Since Cadmeians and Pelasgians are considered a pre-indoeuropean tribes that could fill the time gap we were talking about. Since those two tribes arrived that early at the cental parts of Greece, it wouldn't be that difficult to get to Epirus. From Dryopis the access to epirus is quite easy through the mountains of Oiti. However, I don't know if Epirus had a friendly climate by that time Thylander is talking about, since when those two tribes arrived, Europe was still going through it's last ice age. Epirus is no doubt a cold place. Anyhow, the inhabitants of Phtiotis moved to Pindus according to Rawlinson and called themselves Macedni (Macedonians). Pindus is a natural border between Macedonia and Epirus which means that it's very easy for the Macedni to move to the greater areas of Epirus. Just some thoughts... -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:40
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Since we are refering to an area of th Balkans, this may be of interest to readers here ... I just saw on the Discovery Channel's Daily Planet that Amateur archaeologist Semir Osmanagic recently announced that he has uncovered proof that a four-sided hill in the town of Visoko, Bosnia, is an ancient manmade structure. Web searches has found more info on it but you can draw your own conclusions. http://www.bosnianpyramid.com/index_files/Excavations.html ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 06:10
I've seen that too. However, nobody can deside about it's exact age. And the question is "Is it a real pyramid?". It looks more like a mountain formed in that shape. A similar mountain was found in Peloponisos and ofcourse people started saying it was 30000, 200000, 1 000 000 years old etc. In the end it was prooved that the pyramid was a naturaly formed mountain (extremely well shaped though) where people had created tombs within it. Those pyramid things in the Balcans make people a bit too excited...don't know. Pyramids do exist in the Balcans but why are the real pyramids smaller if they were built in the bronse age? Why did they stop making them? Why did the Mychenean style of tombs get more popular? -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 06:45
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Ancient Epirotans lived in area that has nothing to do with the region that found the Bosnian pyramids. So I think we are out of the topic -------------
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Posted By: Skanderbeg
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 11:13
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All this sounds tooooooooo greek to me... For greeks everything else is greek. Why are greeks so fixed with "making" everything greek??????? Perhaps if some of the ancient writers wrote about AMerica than greeks would say that Greeks were there too and that Indian tribes are greek too!! Perhaps if asked an Epirotans I wonder what his/her answer would be. All the best
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 13:42
May I see your argyments Dear Skanderbeg that fall down the Greek one? Obviously you are Albanian and support that Epirotans were Illyrians.
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Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 17:57
You are showing your ignorance now!!!  There are theories(  ) here in Greece
according to which the native tribes of the Americas like the Navaho
for example were in fact Greeks.The name comes from the Greek word
navayos which means castaway!You should have known that before talking
about the Epirotans! |
Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 18:02
| The Epirotan noblemen just like the Macedonians participated in the olympic games,unlike the Illyrians who were never invited to participate.This shows that the Epirotans were Greeks. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 04:18
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Hmm, i think though I posted information from an American historian. Haven't seen any posts where someone called Pappadopoulos (or any Greek surname) states that Epirotans were Greeks. I know that Albanians believes Epirotans were Illyrians. However, Albanians say the Etruscs were Illyrian (without even knowing what defines the Etruscan tribe) and some other extremists believe that Italians (even Sisely) was Illyrian. I'm sure that the northern parts of Epirus had Illyrian minorities but that doesn't make Epirotans Illyrian. You will hear similar things from Greek scientologists but in the same way you should ignore their wacky theories, you should ignore Albanian extremists claiming every single part of europe. As for the Navajo thing, yes the word makes sence and I've read that the natives of Peru and Bolivia use the same greek words like "poa", "panida" etc. However, I don't believe these things. It's a damn coinsidence yeah but many of those theories are based in the story of Atlantis or Scientology. I think everyone on this forum can live without it. Let's make discussions based on respectful scientific sources, from people that have devoted their lives in history. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 05:18
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Just like Macedonia, Epirus was inhabited by several tribes; some of them were Greek beyond any doubt. Molossians, Selloi, Hellenes, Grakoi, ... were Greek. Now, was ANY of non-Greek tribes ever lived in Epirus called by ANYONE as (ethnic) Epirotan ? If yes, then we shall consider the term Epirotan as geographic, if not then Epirotans were Greek. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 14-May-2006 at 06:40
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Well done Istor!
------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 08:35
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Well this looks a bit confusing. I dont'believe Epirotes were albanians, and I dont'believe illyrians were albanians. Albanians hereditated much of their today culture from some tribes of the two mentioned areas (illyria and epirus). Regarding Epirus, i believe it was a geographical area inhabitated by various tribes. Some of the tribes showed more similarities to the hellenic words, some other could have illyrian elements in their culture. The Mollosian and the Chaonian tribe name could be explained by modern albanian Mollë - apple and Ka - bull, but this is just a theory.
The dividing line between the Gheg (northern albanian) dialect and the Tosk (southern albanian) falls exactly where Illyria bordered ancient Epirus. That line follows the Roman Via Egnatia (name related to alb.E gjata-the long) or the Shkumbini (lat.Scampinus from alb. shkëmb - rock) river. The differences between the dialects are not very strong, but still it is curious the fact that they border in the same place where Illyria bordered Epirus. Probably this reflects something.
Anyway, dont want to hurt nobodys nationalistic feelings ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 10:47
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I agree with you Arber that Epirus was a geographic term just like Macedonia or Ionia. Molossians were a Greek tribe, I don't doubt about it. To explain ancient peoples' names with modern words-languages is wrong. Egnatius was a Roman co-emperor or something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Egnatius http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia Maybe it reflects the northest limit of Greek Language expantion. :) I refer to Jirecek line. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 11:33
I dont believe Jirecek was alive in the times of Illyria and Epirus
Just kidding
Now more seriously, I have to say that from the illyrian language all that is left are some few words, and most of them are onomastic, toponimic etc. So maybe the tribes name can be explained from the modern language, that should be deriving from the old one. As you probably know the faith of the antic illyrians was similar to that of the hellenes, thracians, celts or romans, which means politheistic and pagan european. That religion was very naturalistic, there was a god linked to almost every natural phenomena. So when we consider this fact we can think that it might be possible for them to name themselves after the names of some "totems". Another tribe I would like to mention are the Encheleas. They were also living in what now can be called southern albania or northern epirus, or epirus. Their name is related to the albanian Ngjalë - eel (also the english eel has the same indoeuropean root). The first known king of the Encheleas (Or Enchelei, Enkelei, Enhelei etc) was Bardulis (Bardhyli), who fought the macedonian king Philip. Its name in albanian should mean white star (Bardhë - white + Ylli - star).
But with this I am not proving that epirotans were albanian or illyrian or greek. Some of the Epeirus tribes certainly were near the illyrian culture...
And another last thing, linguists and historians should study a bit more the links between albanian and greek (including archaic greek). Myself I found in the greek mythologic names and in the historic words some coincidences with albanian language. Probably this languages that lived close to each other for millenia share some common cultural ancestor, which could be closer than the proto-indo-european. The illyrians called themselves Iliri, and i heard the modern greeks calling themselves hellenes pronunciating it ilini. Now between iliri and ilini the difference u can find is only the r - n rotacism, that is commonly found in albanian between Tosk and Geg dialects. Can it be just a coincidence?I believe that these cultures (greek and albanian) could have been close to each other, if it was not for the religion (which came from the middle east...!) ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 13:00
 Interesting etymological analysis.! Modern Greeks pronounce "Elines". ------------- |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 14:17
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I think that Illyrians and Hellenes are tottaly diffrent terms not only as syntactic but also and phonetically. Except that both tribes spoken diffrent languages. Of course Epirotans and Macedonians had big influnce from them because were between the edycational Greeks and the barbarians neighboors. The latters of course have strong influence and from the Thracians specially after the Odrysian era.
Arber you are right as about the geographical meaning. As Istor said Hellas, Macedonia, Crete, Ionia, Epirus e.t.c. have only geographical meaning and not the ethnological meaning of the present era.
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 18:56
That's right! But in Epirus there were not tribes who had some similarities with the greek or the illyrian culture. Epirus was inhabited by greeks (mostly), illyrians and other tribes.
What is common between "Mollosian" and "Mollλ - apple"?
I think that Ghegs and Tosks have differences in terms of their phenotype too. Especially the Tosks are close to Greeks.
 ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 30-May-2006 at 19:27
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By the way, the pronounciation of our name "Hellenes", is "Ellines" (since the ancient times) as Digenis said and not "Ilini" (I've never heared it before). ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 06:19
accurately
 , Today 1/3 (30%) of greeks has Albanian bloods (Arvanitet, Albanian Chams, Albanian Labs) if you going in Chameria, Pelopenezia you can see there Albanians faces (Greekeziadet Albanians by force)dorian you must ask to your grandefather if you are albanian descend (if you are little lighter that your compatriot)
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 07:50
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When Dorian speak for similarities he doesn't mean anthropological or genetical events but for culrural thinks.
Where do you know that the 1/3 of the Greek population has Albanian blood ? You mention the arvanites when is known that either spoke a close relative language never accepted that have Albanian origin. Actually when said to theirs that are albanians is an insult for them!!! -------------
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 07:57
Actually I think Dorian's comment was meant the other way round
Please refrain from using stupid personal remarks that can be taken as an insult. It doesn't add to your argumentation, on the contrary you'll receive replies with similar context. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 09:43
Mr...Golden Blood,
1. your nickname shows how a racist you are
2. Albanian Chams are Albanians and not Greeks
3. Arvanites are not Albanians (if you say it to an Arvanite he'll got angry because this is one of the biggest frauds which unfortunately is very popular in Greece too)
4. geneological studies indicate that the greek people is pure
5. lay off my grandfather and go to find your roots ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 10:45
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Apparently this issue, regarding the epirotes, is still very fragile and it seems it could cause trouble. Just to clarify my point of view. Greeks and Albanians are culturally close, in the Indoeuropean point of view. I dont mean that greeks and albanians are the same or have the same origins, because if I say that people might get offended (and I dont understand why, but I guess because of religious historical character of this issue). I never said that Ellini or Ilirë is the same! You should keep in mind that 3 millenia passed since the archaic times of Homerus, and since that time the greek and the illyrian followed different paths, to become modern greek and albanian. My theory (better say hypothesis) is that in the era of the Illiad the Thracians, the Illyrians, the Macedonians and the Greeks were less differing parts of the same culture, lets say the pelasgian. But later, the Greek tribes, having a geographical position that favoured the commerce, left appart the bucolic pastoral lifes and started the "politic" life, or the life of the polis, which included commerce and travelling etc etc. The greeks came into contact with more developed cultures, like the egyptian etc, and their culture of course got affected. So lets say that the greek started getting more "civilised" (even though more appropriate should be became more "polite" as related to polis). But if we compare the languages, the archaic greek of Homerus and the albanian I am sure we could find some similarities. Now certainly that Homerus language is more related to modern greek, as its predecessory. I dont want to say that the antic greeks were the ancestors of the albanians, noway. I m just saying that between the greeks and the albanian there could be found a common origin, which can be nearer to the "historical era". Now, this is an issue that could be studied, but to do this we need a team of scientists who know albanian and greek culture, who have deep knowledge on the languages, and of the languages story. There were some albanian scientists who started working on this direction, and also some arvanites(greek). But for a more credible result we should have the work of scientist from both countries, as well as impartial ones(from other countries). I believe that studying this issue could be worthful scientifically talking.
Lets not tok about hellenised albanians or albanised greeks, and lets not talk about education v.s. barbarism. I dont believe this is a political forum, and i think that people should post here their logic, not their passions. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 12:55
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Your hypothesis is similar (almost the same) with the known book of Jacques. This hypothesis has a lot of gap and many un-historical truths. For example the Macedonians never mentioned in the Homeric poets. Mentioned other historical thinks such as Magnetes, -------------
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 14:55
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Homerus was a poet...he didn't need to mention historical places or people. In the historical scientific point of view it should be more accurate to analyse the linguistic data provided by the Illiad and the Odyssea. Now, I am sorry but I can't tell what the Epirotes were. This is not the aim of a debate, I believe the aim of this forum is to bring facts, data, hypothesis and theories. Confronting them we might get closer to the truth, but keep in mind, there is no absolute truth in history. So lets discuss the topic, and lets compare arguments. If you will feel happy I can say Epirotes were greek, are greek and will always be greek, and you know what, I can say also that the albanians never existed for real. But allow me to say it, it would be better if you studied greek and albanian and try to compare linguistically. Then your words could sound more scientific.
But it seems like you already have your answer, and are tired of this posts..
And regarding the "known book of Jacques" I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I haven't heard of it. What i posted before were facts that I ve noticed my self. But if this Jacques shares my point of view, probably I need to read that. Whats his name and the title of the book, please. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:30
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Homer mention a lot of historical places such as Pieria,Emathia and Magnetes.
The book is
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0899509320&id=VbZHnOjQiKsC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=Jacques,Albanians&sig=152UUUEgEdcsVQCn6fzyeJbcfPY - The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present by Edwin Jacques
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:45
Thank you! And another question to you, please tell me the title and author of the more credible, accurate history of the albanians, in your opinion. I mean the best of what you ve read or heard and with whom you agree mostly. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:59
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Very difficult question.Because I have to choose between Greeks and non-Greeks writers. In my personnal opinion I think Vickers books are the best. The Albanians and The Albania and the Jacques book the worst. As about the Greeks are several books.
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 16:35
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there is a new topic on this, but please feel free to post also the names of the greek historians. And I would like to know also why do you like them, what is their strong point. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 17:40
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Arber, welcome to the forum, there is a literature section you could ask this question so at the sametime this page could stay on topic ------------- |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 17:51
Dori, I already opened another forum. It is on modern history, and I thought it would be better there than on Literature. I am not interested just in the book or in the author. What I want to know is how the participants on this forum know Albania and its history.
Faleminderit për mirëseardhjen ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:21
Mr Dorian 1) first I am not racist I hate racist 2) ofcourse were/are Albanians but fact is ortodhoks chams are assimilated with time here. 3) It is Crap of year , Arvanitet are puro Albanian by antropology, linguistic.We (all the Albanians) used to be called "Arberesh" or "Arbanit" in the medevil period, the people that moved to Italy kept the original name, the people that moved to Greece changed the name a little bit because the "b" is "v" in Greek, so instead of Arbanite it came to be Arvanite.....and this all historian greeks and evropians know. 4) sure?  ok...5) good  God bless you!, good luck |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:24
| Arber Z cfare literatura po kerkon? ndoshta te ndihmoj diqka! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:53
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GoldenBlood can we stay in the topic please ?
If you want to open another issues there are another forum such the non-english or the Current affairs. -------------
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 06:42
1. yeah...
 2. I didn't get it
3. Have any anthropological research about Arvanites of Greece ever taken place? No. They were Greeks from the greater region of Epirus who spoke greek and albanian because of the coexistence with Albanians (or Illyrian elements in the long ago). Albanians and some Greeks consider the Greeks from Albania who came here recently to be Albanians too but they are foolish. Because Albanians don't accept that a lot of Greeks live in Albania while some Greeks (who are idiots) in Greece don't accept a Greek who was born in Albania, in Canada or in South Africa and speak another language along with the greek.
4. you can just surf in the internet
5. thanks!
Good luck dude! ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 08:02
Dorian you say again crap of craps
 , how old are you?where you learn whith arnavatit? ahahah and another funny you claim that vllach in Albania are greeks but you know in Greece live 350.000 Vllach when you stop their origins.
read here:
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html - http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/...arvanites.html (from Greek Web)
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coongreeks/ - http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coongreeks/ http://www.arbitalia.it/ - http://www.arbitalia.it/ (here Arbanitet or Arbresh from Italy)
http://www.arnavutum.com - www.arnavutum.com (Arnavut from Turkey)
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 08:26
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@GoldenBlood -Can you provide any sources about ancient Epirus and Illyria?I think thats the point of the topic and not nationalistic flamme-wars. -Plz try keeping a level on the discussion (we can keep our crap for the WC..ok ?) -My grandma is Vlah. Go tell her she is not Greek and you ll escape with bruises on your right eye .  ------------- |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:09
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Goldenblood and Dorian read the www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6512 - AE Code of Conduct and restrain from personal attacks. Moreover the topic is about ancient Epirotans not about modern Greeks and Albanians. Back to the topic now. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:42
Fully agree with Perseas. Regarding the ancient Epirotans, as all of you might know, ancient writers/historians provide contradictory facts. Now we should analyse all the data, the linguistic (toponyms, onomastic etc), the archaeologic and the historic documents. Of course in ancient Epirus there were centers of hellenistic culture, the colonies. But there were also other cities, and we know some of the tribes. We should establish a border for Epirus, and then we should analyse the tribes, as they were not the same ethnically and culturally talking.
But just to be clear, they were not modern greek, nor modern albanian, so there is no place for "clever" nationalism here! ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 13:31
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Why doesn't anybody mention that Epirus means "continent"? It is not a modern toponym like Emathia etc. Also check this: Etymology of the word "Greek" "O.E. Crecas (pl.), early Gmc. borrowing from L. Græci "the Hellenes," from Gk. Grakoi. Aristotle, who was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellenes"Meteorologica" I.xiv) wrote that it was the name originally used by Illyrians for the Dorians in Epirus, from Graii, native name of the people of Epirus. " The text is from Oxfords online etymology dictionary. No propaganda sites here or clever nationalism like someone correctly mentioned http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Greek&searchmode=none -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 14:54
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The Vlachs have nothing to do with the topic and the vlachs of Greece are latinized Greeks. Back to the topic.. Epirus was the first home of the Greeks from where they were spread in whole Greece. In Epirus there was the second most famous oracle of ancient Greece, Dodona. From Epirus and a local tribe the name "Greeks" derived. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 16:57
I think you wanted to say Hellenic culture instead of Hellenistic culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic
------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 09:39
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We are being a bit "closeminded". I believe that in Epirus the Hellenic civilisation confined with the illyrian, and, as in all border areas of the world, the populace was mixed (there were hellenes and illyrians). This seems logical, because, as all of you know, Thucydides in the 5th cent.BC referred to the epirotes as barbarians, which means non-hellenic, or at least mixed population. Now, as I have mentioned it before, the Illyrians were not a totally different ethnic culture, they had almost the same religion with the hellenes (probably using some different names for some of the gods). So, the Dodona oracle was a holy shrine for both entities. Hellenic documents mention also mount Tamaron (Tomorri) as one of the oldest holy places. That mount is still the destination of thousands of pilgrims from all albanian regions and from all the religions in the 22-27august of every year. People sacrify lambs and calfs there, and while they eat the meat, they live the heart and the livers untouched. The costume is very pagan.
Back to the topic, Epirus started to hellenize in the 5th century BC and this process continued. But through the times it remained a land inhabitated by illyrians and hellenes, todays greek and albanians. There has never been an absolute border dividing those entities.
A question to the greek fellows of the forum, how do we write and pronounce Achilles Aspetius in ancient greek (please use latin letters, because I still havent learn the greek ones).
Thank you in advance! ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 09:51
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Achilefs (Achileus) Aspetios ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 10:30
Sure they were mixed populations as well. The thing is that the Illyrian minorities got a Hellinic identity. Don't forget that minorities in all the city states existed. Lydians, Egyptians, Phrygians, Armenians, Assyrians etc did a lot of trading and settled across those kindoms/states. The above minorities though were not considered foreign for some reason. Some people just got a toponymic "surname" along with a greek name e.g "X of Thebes" could be someone of egyptian descend etc. As for the term barbaric it's missinterpreted often. Barbaric could be an insult, a non civilized person or a person that missbehaves (The term is still used in modern Greek sometimes). The Aetolians for example who were a Hellinic tribe descending from Aetolos (descendand of Deucalion), were called barbarians by the Athenians because they were bellicose. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 11:40
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The ancient greeks used to divide their world in two parts, the hellenes, and the barbarians (the foreigners, those who didn't have greek culture and civilisation) the word gained other meanings with the time.
When I was talking about mixed populations, i didnt mean mixed like hellenes marrying illyrians etc. I mean mixed like one region where you could line no clear border between the ethnicities. The hellenic tribes confined the illyrian ones and viceversa. The Epirus noble families gave their children greek education, and so they started hellenizing, but this dont mean that the populace hellenized entirely. Analogy: Alexander the Macedonian, which of course was educated as a greek and had a hellenic conscience, or Aristotle, one of the most known ancient greek philosophers (from macedonia), by their political opponents (among them a prominent oratorius) were denominated as barbarians, or semi-barbarians. I dont want to doubt about their being hellenes, but this is just to remind that Macedonia or Epirus never were totally greek, but only partially. In Epirus there was a strong Illyrian element (we cannot talk about minorities or majorities) and in Macedonia there was a strong thracian element. So, the people that came from this regions, even though they could be pureblood hellenes, could be labelled as "barbarians" or "semi-barbarians". ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:09
Probably this is just a coincidence, but I will still write it.
Aq i lehtë, i shpejtë
pronounce - Akhileht' Ispeit'
This albanian words mean Lightest and fastest
Now everybody can compare
In greek Achilefs is not pronounced with a strong K but with a glottalized K, and for this sound i used "kh"
we have
Akhilefs Aspetios V.S. Akhileht'Ispeit'
I thought they are very very similar. But still is up on everybody to analyse and to comment.
Addendum, in the Illiad Homerus referred to the Achilles well known speed. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:26
Many scholars agree that the majority of the ancient Greeks found difficult to see beyond the horizon of the city-state or to overcome the limitations that slavery and other facts of their life imposed upon their sight. That is to say, the ancient Greeks did not reach the picture of a world-society in which not only those who enjoy Hellenic culture, not only the wise, but all peoples, or at any rate all civilized peoples, have a place. These research findings explain why many ancient Greeks called the ancient Macedonians or Epirotans uncivilized barbarians . According Thucydides, Andriotis, Hatzidakis,Hammond and Wilkes, in the eyes of many ancient Greeks, the Macedonians, the Epirotes, as well as the Boeotians,Aetolians and the Thessalians were barbarian, uncivilized Greek tribes. Thus, Andriotis also argues that the designation barbarian was attributed by ancient writers to other uncivilized Greek tribes, as well, such as the Epirote tribe of Chaones (Thuc. 2.80) . Hatzidakis agrees on this asserting that as was the case with Macedonians, some included Macedonia and Epirus in Greece, while others did not. Thucydides speaks of the barbarian Chaones in B.80, while in 81 it is mentioned that the Thesprotians and the Molossi were also barbarians, according to Thucydides . As i said the previous writers (add also Wilcken) affirms that the term barbarian Macedonian or Epirotan is not used in an ethnological sense, but with a derogatory cultural meaning. Admitting that, for some ancient Greeks, the Macedonians were an uncivilized Greek tribe, Hatzidakis says that for that reason many excluded certain tribes from the national community, for they were considered to be inferior compared with the general national civilization . read and this http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/general-greek-history/79-word-barbarian-ancient-greek-linguistic.html - The word barbarian in the Ancient Greek Linguistic
what Srabo mention for the meaning of the Barbarian.
As about the definition of the geographical place of the Epirus we must consider the era that we want to speak. E.g. in the past the East Epirus was a part of the Macedonia. The Thracian or the Illyrian Element is not to much strong according the archaelogical finds.Illyrian tomps we have find in North Albania but not in the South (North Epirus). Thracian elements we have found in the Thrace(Greece,Turkey and Bulgaria) but in Macedonia we have'nt find. There is influence like religion but not ito much in order to say strong
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:33
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If we continue in this way, please explain me why the barbarian illyrians were not greeks?And what about the thracians or the italic tribes?We dont have documents of their language, as we don't have documents of the language fo macedonia and epirus.It is normal that the higher strata could use greek in some period. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:40
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We don't have only the language but and other facts that define one ancient civilization.Tombs, tumulus, weapons, artifacts, ceramic and many others archaeological foundings . Mycenaic type of tumulus we have found in Ephesus, Pella and Epirus. Illyrian tumulus or artifacts we have find in North Albania, Bosnia(Glamoc), Slovenia e.t.c. -------------
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 12:53
Have you ever visited the antic city of Bylis, near Apollonia?Or the archaeological sites between Korça and Pogradec?(in the south of ohrid lake). Or the Dimalion and Antipatrea (in the berati region). Do you know what is an illyrian helm, and how does it differ from the greek helm?Do you know the differences between illyrian swords, knifes and spears and the greek ones?In albania you can see both of the types and compare them, I invite you to visit the national museum in Tirana, and even the archaeological museums in other cities of southern albania. Of course there was greek culture, we have found vases and amphores and also armours, but generally in the areas of Buthrotvm, Foinike, Apollonia and Dyrrachion. What about the Achiles coincidence, what do you think? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 13:38
I think that we have problem how to understanding the historical boundaries of Epirus. Below is a map according the Ptolemeus Geography.You can see the borders of Illyria, and Epirus.
 The ancient city of Bullis is known that residents were the Illyrian tribe of Bulliones. Dimmallum also is a region that belong in the ancient Illyrian Kingdon.
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 13:52
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According this map Byllis falls in Epirus. And illyrian settlements were found in Korcca region, as well as near mount Tamaron (Tomorri). And as i mentioned before there are many illyrian archaeological remains and tumbs found in the Gjirokastra region. One of the known sites is near Saranda. As i already said, there were as well hellenic uttensiles and artifacts.They have been catallogued and are in the albanian museums (most of them in National Museum of Tirana). As i said, you can visit Tirana freely, you ll find warm hospitality, as albanians always welcomed visitors from all countries, specially neighbours (communism era excluded). ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:03
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I have visited your country twice.The ones was in the Alia era.
Now in the topic. Can you tell me why all the modern writers (Wilkes,Hammond,Borza e.t.c.) segerate the Epirotans from the Illyrians and fit them to the Greeks ? -------------
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Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:23
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No, the word barbarian didn't mean non-Greek all the times. For instance Plato calls Lesbians as barbarian because he couldn't get their Aeolian dialect. After Thucydides the term mean "uncivilized" or peasant. gods: Do you know that many Turks visis Saint george's monastir in Propontis to pray ?? They are not Greeks, right ?? This popylation's mixture is referred by Strabo: "what was undoubtely Greece is now habited by barbarians: Macedonia by Thracians ....." But the very word mixture means difference. So Macedonians weren't Thracians. Achilefs name seems similar to those Albanian words because both Albanian and Greek are IE languages. If you Albanians had ANY written text OLDER than Homer poems with that name of Achhiles, we could believe that the name had Illyrian origin. We have Macedonian names, toponyms and we have now Pella katadesmos. We do know that Macedonians spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World. So, I think it is very stupid to argue about Macedonians' Greekness. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:28
Alia was in communism era
 Anyway, not all the modern historians, and not all the ancient historians. I am working on something right now, and I beg your pardon for not posting you links, but I will do later on. But you can search on google, history of ancient epirus, and you will see those who fit them to the hellenes, and those who segregate them from the hellenes.Anyway, I will also post my references later. Now, what do you think of what i wrote for Achilles? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:40
How do you explain the fact that Aristoteles called Philip a barbarian when he burned down Stagira? They were both from Macedonia... There are other more accurate words for "foreigner", but a non-native speaker can't know that. Barbarian means also "ignorant" f.ex. Hylding Thylander (Swedish Historian of the university of Frescati, Stockholm) writes about migrations of the proto-Hellinic tribes at the area of Epirus way before the indo-european invations. The Illyrians showed up around 4000 B.C and didn't settle directly in what was called Illyria. There's a big time gap there between the two civilizations. I do believe though in minorities, at least in the beginning of the formation of the Epirotan Kindoms. However, with the Illyrian migration southwest, it is possible(or maybe I should say certain) that Illyrian villages showed up here and there. They never created a Kindom at the area but I do believe they were coexisting peacefully with the rest of the populations. Why wouldn't be possible that many of them mixed with other tribes? By they way...I should remind you that Olympiada, mother of Alexander teached him that he was descended of Achilleus, who became Alexanders role model. Many of the Epirotan/Macedonian Kings were not natives of the area but from the southern parts of Greece e.g Argos. That's a good reason why the Epirotans were one way or another Hellinized. Now I'll remind you as well that the first settlers of Thrace were Cadmeians (a Graeco-Phoenician, proto-Hellinic tribe according to George Rawlingson), followed some milleniums later by several groups of proto Anatolians (Indo-European Hellinic tribes). So Thracians though they were a mix of people, they're not at all unrelated to the rest of the Hellinic tribes. -------------
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:41
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Proud Macedonian Istor, you who know IE languages, please tell me the meaning of Achilles Aspetios in greek, and inform me about other similarities in other IE languages. I am not arguing about anyones greekness, and this topic is not on macedonia.The Pella Catadesmos, interesting indeed, but when did it date??Did you read the posts related to the helenization of the higher strata?
Regarding my modest comparative example on Achilles, i mentioned that I was comparing Modern Albanian to Archaic Greek (Yannis told me about the pronunciation). That is because we dont have documents on the illyrian language, and also from many other languages. But this doesnt mean that the languages who were documented later should not be taken into consideration.
And again, in the modern times everybody knows what nationallity he has. I know I am an albanian from south albania (northern-epirus), you know you are a greek-macedonian, and a slav-macedonian knows what he is. There is no need to decide on the nationality of the people who are still breathing. We are discussing about ancient people... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:46
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If proto-hellenic and hellenic came from phoenicia and anatolia, then how come dorians invaded greece from the north?Were the greeks coming from everywhere?
Which are the non indoeuropean elements in archaic greek language? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 14:53
Just a minute my friend...Now you stated something that you haven't ever heard about. We don't have Macedonian documents? We have more than enough...Coins, inscriptions, tombs you name it... And about the first settlers of Epirus I mentioned before...The oldest findings are typical red-yellow keramics with pelasgian symbols like the Maiandros. Similar pelasgian art was found in the site of Sesklos and the Island of Thassos. These findings confirm Rawlingsons theories about the migration of the proto-Hellinic tribes (Pelasgians, Cadmeians). There's a continuity in the findings across all areas that tend to dissappear when we move north in non-hellinic ground. I wish I had more time to give you more details about the findings and the art...I'll be back cause it's really interresting. -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:00
I hope this extract from George Rawlingson answers your question " Of all the answers that had reached him, this pleased him far the best, for it seemed incredible that a mule should ever come to be king of the Medes, and so he concluded that the sovereignty would never depart from himself or his seed after him. Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the one being a Pelasgic the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, [1] they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus*. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians. The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic**, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians." PS: In case you get confused with the terms...The inhabitants of Fthiotis were the first to call themselves hellenes. -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:22
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Arbez as I see I am not debate with links or generally with web sources. I gave a lot of known writers as example for the origin of the Epirotans.I gave you archaelogical findings that also support my claim.I will wait yours.
Your claiming as about the connections of the Albanian language with the archaic language born from a Greek writer naming Kollias (Arvanites and the Origin of the Greeks). His effort to connect your language with the archaic Greek via Pelasgian in order to proove that Arvanites-Albanian-Greeks are the same collapse from several writers. -------------
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:34
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Hey I mentioned an example and made a question. Saying that someone else collapsed is not an argument. So please tell me, do you find it a coincidence?
Regarding what you said, i know a land called Fthia, but not a land called fthiots.
In the paragraphe you quoted i noticed "the first being pelasgian and the second greek". But I am probably ignoring the fact that in ancient greek such words as barbarian, pelasgian etc had different meanings, and were referred to ignorants.
I believe it is impossible for a language to keep the same form through the centuries, so your author was wrong in this point. Ancient greek was not modern greek. It had words that now are not in use, and it had words that werent in use since 5th century BC.
The pelasgian walls and the pelasgian ceramic or terracotta is present all over albania and even kosova, this is for sure.
Anyway, it is a pleasure being part of this debate, you guys look really moderated and i like this
  It is true, this is interesting ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 15:50
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According Herodotos Greeks and Pelasgians were diffrent nations (ethnoi) and spoke also diffrent languages. So any connection between them via the language is not sustain. Now if we accept that Linear A is Pelasgian then is diffrent from the Archaic Greek for two reasons. The first one is Linear ** when the Greek one is the first complete C&V Alphabetic. With the assitance of the archaic Greek the Linear B beeing decipherment.When I say archaic Greek mean the Homeric and not the Classical (Dorian,Aeolian and Attica) You mention coincidence. Below is a text written in English but the words are Greek.This is not mean that the English language came from the Greek. These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic
I am glad also this kind of debate. I am almost 40, that's why I met the communism in the Balkan countries via traveling.
**edit
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Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 17:12
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Axilleus ( ending -eus is exclusively Greek), is from a (=non, negative) and cheleion (= shield) = who needs no shield. There are some other possible etymologies. Please do not attempt to make etymology if you haven't studied Greek and other IE language in depth. Aspetios is an adjective for Achilles and means aspetos that is who cannot be described by words = BIG, POWERFULL, STRONG ... The word aspetos is related to English speak. Modern Greek word from cheleion is chelona (turtle). Pella Katadsmos is as old as 350BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_Katadesmos You are right about language and centuries. A Language cannot keep the same form for centuries. So, don't attempt to etymologize ancient Greek names with modern Albanian words. I think that peoples who came in Greece from the south weren't proto-Greek. They just have been hellenized by time. All Greeks were living in Pindus before 2000 BC and then started the big migration to the south. First Ionians-Aeolians and then Dorians. It's SlavoSkopians who argue about our Macedonians' Greekness. I am glad too for there is an Albanian here to talk seriously with us, Greeks. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Kotsos
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 18:01
i agree. Epirus is also a very special area, and the tribes arrived there from the north they must have co-existed with Illyrian tribes. Later on, the space where Greece is today was overpopulated, and colonized all directions.
just a though from me, since Epirus is the "ancient Greece" of the ancients, the culture evolution gap between them and the ancients of 500BC, is similar to the one ancients of 500BC have, with the modern ones nowadays.
I agree. We can't generate maps with chalklines for the older times, especially the ancient times, when i doubt there was also border police. There were some areas of control only, anyone could come in or go as settlers.
He has done a good work, saving interesting information for songs, language. Ofcourse with some mistakes, but every writer does. His result is what matters to me, that Albanians and Greeks are the closest related to each other groups of the Balkans. This ain't a new thing, introduced by this writer, but an ancient truth, that has to do with this very subject, Epirus as well. It is known that because of similarity in behaviour and appearence, Greeks use the words "una fatsa, una raca" with the Italians. We should use this phrase 10 times more for the Albanians ------------- 
nje faqe nje fare |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 18:58
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well guys, i agree with some things that you said and i disagree with some others, but i guess this is the human nature. Now, I am proud to discuss with you too, you made me login at this time, (here is 5 am). I just came home, and I cant provide you literature right now, but Istor, believe me, I know some 5 IE languages, and I am planning to learn greek also. Now, as you can notice, even between you we can find some disagreement (greek tribes came from south, north or east?)You shouldnt blame each other, you really love your country as i do. This is one of the best qualities a man should have (one of the worst is hating the others country). The historical problems usually cause disagreement because we can never be sure of our arguments and we can never know if something is 100% true or not. Different authors write different things, old documents are contradictory sometimes, and we cant do nothing else but to stick to our view and confront our arguments. If it was that easy to find what the epirotans were, we wouldnt be here discussing endlessly from a century at least.
Regarding the english words, i know they are of greek origin, or better say borrowed from french and latin who in their time borrowed from greek. But the albanian words i brought are not borrowed from other languages, they find their cognates in other IE languages, but not in our neighboring languages. But perhaps the ethymology you provided is the right one (this is also one thing you can never be sure), anyway anybody who will read that will judge .......Aspetios is something you cant translate .......... I will provide some more "coincidences"... I am curious, and this forum is the paradise of the curious people. The inscriptions on the tombs, coins etc, of course, were in greek, but I wanted to say that if I am not wrong they belong to the 5thcentury or later, and in that time we are not talking anymore about process of genesis for a ethnicity, at least not in the balkans.
Hoping you wont mind, now I ll go to sleep.Will be back tomorrow
 Here you got another guess from me, it doesnt come from Kollias, it is mine
Eschylles called the pelasgians Gegenes or Gegenoi. It meant "born from the earth". The northern Albanians, known for preserving some very old elements of their culture, due to the isolation in the mountain areas, are called Geg'. They call their land Gegeni (in standart albanian would be Gegeri). Is it still a coincidence?
Gegenoi - Gegeni
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 04:04
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Aspetios is something that I can't understand. Something close enouph is the word Aspetos that mean exorbitant,vast and expressionless -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 05:59
My Author happens to be George Rawlingson. I suppose anyone into history knows him just like a sports interrested person knows who Diego Maradona was. Don't know if the first man translating herodotus to English is that wrong. Rawlingson didn't say "the language hasn't evolved", he said that it "hasn't changed". There's a difference. His point is that it keeps the same main structure. Now may I ask how you recognise Pelasgian ceramic since you're so sure? Give me its characteristics. Do you mean that Pelasgians reached Illyria? I know that some colonies were created up north for some periods but It was not in the same period we're talking about. Remember also that Illyrians migrated around 4000 B.C (and not directly to Illyria but near the shores of Danube)...Pelasgian ceramic stretches back a bit. And about Fthiotis, it's modern name is Fthiotida which is a province. Fthiotis is also known as Elli. It's capital is Lamia. -------------
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Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 09:50
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Arber, I think you shall tell us when did you find the word "aspetios". It is not in our dics. Yes Pelasgians are γηγενείς = native, birn by Earth. The word is composed by the words gee (ee= eta, earth) and genos (= born). Allow me a friendry advise with ALL respect. Etymology is not just similearity of sounds! Each Language has its own rules of evolution. These rules shall be studied carefulle and applied more carefully when making etymology! I 'll be glad if Geg is related to geegeneis; but I doubt ! ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 12:50
I dont understand your question, I am sorry. What do you mean?
I know that ethymology has its own rules, and I know that Geegeneis/Geegenoi is derived by those words. But Similarity, when occurs very often, means something!
Geegenois - Gegëni
Gegëni is called today the land of Ghegs, and their language (albanian dialect Gegënisht)
I dont mean that Geegenoi derives from Gegëni, probably the process should be inverted.
I will try to provide other "similarities" which coincide between this languages.
Still, the Pelasgians are a bit far from our potential knowledge, we know few things about them. Regarding the archaeological cultures in neolitic period you can find some interesting maps in wikipedia (neolitic europe)
I know that wikipedia is not a very credible source, but i dont think they will invent fake maps for neolithic people, the nationalistic mental illness cant go that far.
As i wrote in PM to some of the fellows interested in this debate, I am preparing a material with pictures of pelasgian ceramica and archaeological data, and i will post it here.
The cyclopean walls, referred to as pelasgic walls, are one of the signs of pelasgian presence. This walls made of enormous stones are found in northern albania (shkoder, kruje, zgerdhesh etc) as well as in central and southern albania (in many ancient sites)
You can admire the size of those rocks even in athens. Now, dont ask me if I can understand when a wall is cyclopean, and when it isnt, please.
I would have another question, if it would not bother.
From where derives the meaning of "Larissa", the fortified hills of ancient sites? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 13:08
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I think he means where and from whom this word mentioned ? -------------
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 13:14
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Why is Arber trying to relate anything with the Albanians? ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 13:40
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Well, just make a search on google for Achilles Aspetos, it is known that one of the names of Achilles was Aspetios, the Epirotans used to call him that way.
And, I am not trying to relate everything with albanian, but since the question is "Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?", I am trying to bring some curious facts. My opinion is that Illyrians and Hellenes were not very distant, and I am trying to prove that.
------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: logan
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 13:56
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Hi. Flipper Aristot.meteor.I.14. 352a33-352b4
Not all fortified hills were titled 'Larissa' but there are several like that of Argos, in Crete, Thessaly, Anatolia and others. The etymology is 'laas' = rock and 'risa' = root There is a partial mix up due to the two written forms of the same word. Strabo writes the word with a double 's' and suggests it to be of Pelasgic origin. But the earlier written form seen in Homer's Iliad 2.841 indicates that the original written form was with one 's'. If this is an attempt to suggest a Albanian linguistic connection, as far as I know "la" means 'leave', 'ri' means to live and 'sa' means 'up to' , 'how much' if we were to use the double 'ss', then 'ssa' in Albanian means to swear. No real meaning nor is 'ssa' really a word someone would use for the name of a city. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 14:07
Is diffrent to say Aspetios from the Aspetos.
 Aristonicus of Tarentum said that Achilles, when he lived among the young girls at the house of Lycomedes, was called Cercysera; he was also called Issa and Pyrrha and Aspetos and Prometheus.
source :Photius: Bibliotheca. Codices 186-222
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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 14:18
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Logan i tried to edit your post because its unreadable as it is with no success. Since something is wrong if you like copy paste the last paragraphs without aristoteles metereologika, into a new post. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 14:28
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I know that there is no K in Achiles. The soun is not ch like in cheese, that sound does not exist in english. I have heard that sound in greek words, as I have met greek people. In albania we write that sound "q", and in albanian the lightest would be "aq i lehtë" and it is pronounciated "ach i leht' "
And i know that he is referred as Aspetos, and i spelled it wrongly sometimes (pardon me for that).
La Ri and Sa or Ssa have no meaning in albanian
Life is Jetë, to live is Të jetosh,
Larissa or Larisa could probably be related to the Lart - Lartësi (tosk Larësi) meaning high place (like a rock, a hill or a mountain)
I didnt get much of your post, because it was formated strangely and my PC hardly deciphered it (I m at work, and i dont have a very good computer here) ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: logan
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 15:40
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No idea what went wrong with my previous post. Sorry about that.
I was thinking more of how its pronounced with a pause between the c and h and not how its used in english when saying words like 'cheese', 'child' or 'chill'. Even though the 'c' is non-existant when actually read, the use of 'c' is softer than the 'harder' 'k' and I find the combination 'ch' as read by many non-Hellenic speaks represents the 'χ' sound quite well.
"the barbarian of a thousand Chaonians, ...... - With the Chaonians came also some Thesprotians, like them without a king," Indicated foreign people rather than backward/'uncivilized'. Then obviously the Thessalians should have been considered foreigners since as Herodotus tells us 7.176 : "the Thessalians when these came from Thesprotia to dwell in the Aeolian land" But this was obviously not the case since the Thessalians were never considered foreign to the other Hellenic tribes, but instead always were considered kin. |
Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 16:08
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Artber dear, If you ask some Greeks they would tell you that the word "navaho", name of a region in Argentina, is from Greek word ναυαγός > nauagos > navagos (= castaway). Well, I love it as much as you love Geegeneis but I don't believe it! So, there is no word aspetios. Aspetos means what I said above. Ending -ss- is excelusively Greek but derived from older words. Ede-ss-a, Lari-ss-a, Alikarna-ss-os, Ieri-ss-os .... are Greek tranliteration of older names. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 16:25
My name is Arbër, not Aber
If you want you can check any albanian dictionary
. La means nothing, if not a specific musical sound (as in all the world). Ri has no sense (rri means I stay). Sa means "how many?", while sha (ssa) is a form of the verb to swear (it is not an offensive word). But this have no link with larissa, I already posted my opinion.
This is called interpretation (of somebody elses words). It is not a bad thing, it just decreasses the importance of a writen document
The point is that if we continue in this logic line I could say OK the epirotans were called barbarians because were undevelopped, not because of their non hellenic ethnicity. And the same was about the macedonians. So why wasnt it the same with the illyrians. They were undeveloped too, and untill a certain moment of the history were denominated as barbarians, together with the epirotans and the macedonians. But the illyrians, in difference from the others, for some specific reasons decided not to civilize and to remain "undeveloped" even after the 5th century. If they would civilize probably they would have greek writtings and participate in the hellenic games. We know that the macedonians and epirotans were greek, so why the illyrians werent?
But is better if we do not take this risk and do not interprete the words written clearly in old documents. As akritas and dorian posted before, it would be more efficient if we stick mostly to archaeological data (I am preparing something)or linguistic, because the documentation is a bit contradictory.
And to Istor
the navajos are a bit out of reach arent they?We are talking about neighbouring countries, not about daydreaming. And i do not love geegenois, larissa, or whatever written word, in greek albanian or any other languages. My love goes to the people and my passion goes to the logic (seems pathetic but thats it)
If I am bothering you with my posts, feel free to tell me... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 18:57
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Arber we are here to discuss.
All the members of this forum are not archeologists to have all the sources in mind and answer to each question you ask.
Greeks and Illyrians were related nations. The fact is that only southern Greeks were civilised.
But, I can't understand what's the point of all these questions about Achilles ("ch" of this name is pronounced like "h" in "hat" in the greek language), Larissa, gigenis ("gi" (earth) + "gignomai" (become, born)) etc. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 16:09
I do believe both civilizations were very close. Athropologists say Illyrians migrated from the north in the same time as the Celts. According to Polybius, Perseus had an interpreter when he wanted to form an Alliance with the Illyrians. "...in the deputation that Perseus, King of Macedonia, sent to the King of Illyria, in order to form an alliance with him against the Romans, a deputy of Illyrian descent also participated." This one is interresting though. Illyrians offered mercenary services to all the Greek cities. Except from texts etc, there're graves of soldiers in Greece were a small number of them weared Illyrian armour (helmet, shield etc). Except from their personal belongings, items that greeks used to leave in the graves were found, which means that those Illyrians who fell in the battle were burried like a greek soldier. I think that was an action of respect towards the Illyrian mercenaries. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 11:51
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I aggre with you,beacuse the illyrians, troyans,macedonians and epirotans, they were pelasges they speaks same language,and they were there before greks went there.The fact is on that,where alexander of macedonia did his wars together with illyrians and epirotans,he didn't take the soliders from greece(only 300) beacuse he didn't belive them,and is very known that his language wasn't greece language.where the greeks came on ballkan they findit there the mitology,but they taked that culture and moved forward with arts and philosophy.
you can find many of this facts on the book of Edwin jaqcues-albanians
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Posted By: apro282
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 17:06
The Illyrians did not speak Greek. Western Greek tribes always united against the Illyrians; infact Macedonians, Thessalians and Epirotans spoke Greek, worshipped the same Gods and claimed descentant from the same family branch as many other Hellenic tribes. As for the "Trojans"....they were MYTHICAL figures in Homer's Illiad....and even they spoke Greek, worshipped the same Gods and according to Homer were descented by the same family branch as the other Hellenes.
Regarding the Pelasgians: Hate to break it to you but being "Pelasgians" does not mean that Hellenic tribes were not descent from them. According to most ancient sources the Pelasgians were shown as being the direct ancestors of later Greek tribes. According to Homer the home district of the "pelasgians" was LARISSA and CRETE, and Homer goes one step further by telling us that they were part of the family branch which various Hellenic tribes claimed descent from. Herodotus says the Hellenes were not invaders, but descendents of Pelasgians. Also the Athenians held an ancient belief that they were the ony true heirs to the region hench their autochthonous nature and calling themselves "true Hellenes".
Wrong. Since Macedonians were Hellenes, your arguement above is mute since that means most of his army WAS made up of Greeks. BTW, why don't you look up to see who made up part of his elite cavalry units and why.
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 14:52
Maybe we should check out the fact that the Illyrians were the ones who called the Epirotans Greeks...Check Aristotle "Meteorologica". http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Greek&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Greek&searchmode=none O.E. Crecas (pl.), early Gmc. borrowing from L. Græci "the Hellenes," from Gk. Grakoi. Aristotle, who was the first to use Graikhos as equivalent to Hellenes ("Meteorologica" I.xiv) wrote that it was the name originally used by Illyrians for the Dorians in Epirus, from Graii, native name of the people of Epirus -------------
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