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    Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 07:45
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince



In Kurmanji Runaway "Revan/Revin" which might be similar to Persian Reften/Reftun.

That was the word that I found similar to Persians.
 
No bro. "Revin" is originally "remin" ( m > v change is common within Northern Kirmanji Kurdish; cam > cav ~ eye; nam > nav ~ name; etc.). And "remin" is akin to another Persian verb "remiden". As I said Sorani "riwin" and Kurmanji "rewend" are cognates of Persian "reften". Their ancient root is "rep-" if I am not mistaken.


Thanks interesting, my intial thought was the connection to Persian Reften when I first heard it. :)
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Originally posted by Ince



Similar to what happend with Jamaica.  The name Jamaica was given by the native indians and the current people who live in Jamaica only have a small fraction of native indian ancestory and no culturel and linguistic ties to the native indians i think?.
 
Unfortunately I have no idea about Jamaicans.
 
Originally posted by Ince

 

The Medes were not the first Aryan that came to where Kurds live, their was also the Mittani.  Their are even Kurdish tribes that are called "Mattini/Milani/Milli" and tribe by the name of "Sindi" as the Mittani are believed to have been Sindis from India.
 
Well as a matter of fact, a little is known about Mitanni language. Nonetheless the bulk of original Kurdish words appear to be either of Mede or Scythian origin. And its ergative characteristic (as a grammatical feature) is referred to a Hurrian background. By the I believe Medes entered the area simultaneously (some 1000 to 2000 years BC). Nonetheless they stablished their own kingdom 700 years BC.  

 
Originally posted by Ince

  Also, I have read people dissmising the claim that the Kurds that lived in the Fars and with the Sassanids were not related to todays Kurds maybe to distance any connection between Kurds and Sassanids?.  For example here http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/origins-of-kurds-in-preislamic-iran.pdf 

That was where I read that word Kurd in pre-islamic iran was reffered to as Nomads and Sheppards.
 
I think you have to read Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan it describes the history of Sassanid dynasty in their own words. Smile Just google it to find an English version of it. There you obviously face the word "Kurd" as a distinguished ethnic group amongst which Sassanian Persians used to live during the so-called bestial reign of Alexander's successors. As I explained before, to use the term "Kurd" for "Nomadic peoples" was a mistake done by early Arabic conquerers of Iran, and it is by no means restricted to "Nomads" since Arabs indicate Daylamites as "Kurds of Gilan" whilst Daylamites were for sure either rural or urban! But in case of using "Kurd" to describe "shepherds", yes I have already heard of such a usage in some modern Iranian languages including Sangsari (a Northwestern Iranian language spoken around Semnan) in which "kurd" is used along with "coppon" in sense of "shepherd". But it has nothing to do with the pretention that there was no specific ethnic group called "Kurd" in the pre-Islamic era, since the oldest Middle Persian text in reach, namely Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan is to discern an ethnic "Kurd" from a "shepherd" explicitly! Here you are:
 
 
My Middle Persian is not that much good but it says:
 
"And in the hardships due to Alexander, forefathers fleed and got hidden and went towards "Kurdish shepherds".
 
Source: Karnamagi Ardaxshiri Pabagan, Chapter i, sentence 6, romanization by David. N. McKenzie.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Quaere Verum - 16-Jun-2010 at 09:08
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 08:36
Originally posted by Ince


Thanks for your reply.  I understand that their major differences between Kurmanji and Persian   The reason I say Kurmanji pronounce words similar to Persians is like the diagram below Kurmanji use Kh in words like Xwash Xwasin, and Zaza and South Kurds say wash and Wasin.   Zaza say Varan Kurmanji say Baran.  I am no linguastic expert but it is these similarties that I have noticed between Kurmanji and Persian.

I am not sure how correct the belows example are, I found them on Wikipedia:
 
....
 
 
You're welcome. Well first of all as you already mentioned the given examples are from Wikipedia, which is unfortunately not a reliable source. Kirmanji Kurdish which is spoken by some 90% Kurd is not only a dialect such as "Kurmanji", but it has "three main dialects":
 
Northern Kirmanji also known as "Kurmanji"
 
Central Kirmanji also known as "Sorani"
 
Southern Kirmanji also known as "Kirmajhi", "Kelhuri", or "Southern Kurdish".
 
When you want to study Kirmanji Kurdish, you have to consider all dialects together. Otherwise any inferations or conlclusions would be incomprehensive and thus fatally refutable. Regarding to your examples about Kirmanji Kurdish initial "xw-" and "b-" as opposed to Zaza-Gorani "w-" and "v-", while Persian "x-" and "b-"; I have to describe the developments:
 
Kirmanji Kurdish "xw-" is frequently reflected in Southern Kirmanji as "hw-" as well as in various Central and Northern Kirmanji words. For example "xwastin" ~ "to want" in Southern Kirmanji is "hwasin", which is for sure far from Persian "xasten". Kurdish "xw-" / "hw-" is found in Old Iranian as "hv-". This "hv-" later changes into "xv-" and appears as "xw-" in the Middle Persian and then "x-" in New Persian. While Parthian changes it into "wh-" and then "wx-", which eventually appears as "w-" in Zaza-Gorani as well as Baluchi. But other Iranian langauges such as Sycthian preserve it as "hv-". This "hv-" becomes "hw-" in Kurdish and then under a common modern Iranian change in which "h" turns into "x", "hw-" becomes "xw-", nonetheless in many Kirmanji Kurdish (mostly Southern Kirmanji) words you may still notice original "hw-":
 
xwastin : hwasin (to want)
 
xwardin : hwardin (to eat)
 
xwe : ho (self, own)
 
xwer : hwer (sun)
 
xewn : hewn (dream)
 
xeftin : hweftin (to sleep)
 
 
But what about Zaza and Gorani Kurdish languages? Do they reall follow a development similar to Parthian or maybe they have borrowed "w-" examples via Parthian and their original development is similar to that of Kirmanji Kurdish? I think these examples may answer us:
 
Zaza : Hewrami (Gorani): Parthian : Meaning
 
werden : wardey : wxarden : to eat
 
wenden : wendey : wxenden : to read
 
wesh : wesh : wxesh : sweet
 
hewn : wene : wxemn : sleep
 
xo (<ho), ho : we, ho : wxed : self, own
 
- : hesure : wxesureg : father in law
 
- : wer, hor : wxer : sun
 
 
As you can see, however Gorani and Zaza examples match with Parthian "wx-" by "w-", but in a few examples they do not obey the same rule, and interestingly represent "hw-" development. It is worthy of mention that those Kirmanji Kurdish examples with "hw-" are taken from subdialects that are not spoken in vicinity of Zaza or Hewrami (Gorani) speaking areas. Anyways I am working on this stuff and God willing I will be about to issue it scientifically as soon as I finished the job.
 
By the way regarding to retention of ancient "v" in Kirmanji Kurdish, seemingly Northern and Central Kirmanji dialects tend to change it to either "b" or "g" while Southern Kirmanji exquisitly preserves it as "w". However Persian also changes Old Iranian "v" to either "b" or "g", but not all such words are borrowed from Persian or followed a Persian development exactly, since this tendency in Northern and Central Kurdish is due to Scythian influence:
 
Northern : Central : Southern : Persian : Old Iranian : Meaning
 
beraz : beraz : weraz : goraz : veraze : boar, pig
 
baran : baran : waran : baran : vare : rain
 
berf : befir, wefir : wefr, wer : berf : vefre : snow
 
buhar : behar : wehar : behar : vehare : spring
 
bihur : biwar, wigar : wiwar : gozer : vitere : passage
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Quaere Verum - 16-Jun-2010 at 08:46
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 08:51
Originally posted by Ince



Thanks interesting, my intial thought was the connection to Persian Reften when I first heard it. :)
 
Any time bro. Yes it is ok such a though is predictable. ;)
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Persian khod (xod) has not the same root as Germanic *ekon. It comes from Middle Persian xwet, which was in Old Iranian hvet and in Sanskrit svet, which are in relation with German "sich" and Englisch "self".    

Edited by Zazagiyan - 16-Jun-2010 at 09:01
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Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Firstly I have to let you know that "vicitan" is an incorrect orthography, as McKenzie in his last Middle Persian dictionary affirms it must be pronounced and spelled "wizidan", despite the Aramaic spelling.
 
He could be wrong, I think you know about "vi-" prefix, like vididan (to visit, to inspect) and didan (to see), we still use the verb chidan (to pick) from Middle Persia citan.
 
 
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@Quaere Verum

And why my friend the Hewrams use for "sleep" werm and for "self" we? And Balochs use also this /w/ on this words?

This shows definitely, that Zazaki loaned "hewn" and "xo" from an other iranic language. "Xo" is most likely loaned from Persian "xod". This "ho" what you indicated exists only in a few Dersim-dialects and is only produced by Armenian sound influence.

95 % of the Zazas use xo or the deformed versions xui, xu.

- : hesure : wxesureg : father in law

Why you falsify Zazaki?! It is in all dialects vıstıri and it can has both masculine and feminine.

Example: vıstıriyê mı = my father in law, vıstıriya mı = my mother in law.

And this comes according to Paul Ludwig from a proto-form *visa+duxter. In Tati as example means "visite" "husbands sister".

And this forms come according to him from Pahlavi-form "wisduxt".

Here my evidence:

http://zazaki.de/englisch/articels/Paul-1998-Zaza.pdf

Where your neutral iranistic evidences Emanoel??

And your these to assimilate Zazaki in to Kurdish is confuted.

Zazaki doesn't come from Proto Kurdish, it's like Balochi and Hewrami from the historical Hyrkan-region, this are the facts my friend. Also Jost Gippert, the most important Iranist in the world see it suchwise.



Edited by Zazagiyan - 16-Jun-2010 at 09:48
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Firstly I have to let you know that "vicitan" is an incorrect orthography, as McKenzie in his last Middle Persian dictionary affirms it must be pronounced and spelled "wizidan", despite the Aramaic spelling.
 
He could be wrong, I think you know about "vi-" prefix, like vididan (to visit, to inspect) and didan (to see), we still use the verb chidan (to pick) from Middle Persia citan.
 
 
 
All due respect D. N. McKenzie is a peerless linguist in terms of studying Middle Persian up to now. If I am not mistaken its Aramaic orthography is "wycytn" which according to McKenzie's dictionary should be read "wizidan". This is the only way to explain how come further we get New Persian "gozidan" (w > g).

 

By the way I have not heard of "vididan" at all.    
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 10:34
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

@Quaere Verum

And why my friend the Hewrams use for "sleep" werm and for "self" we? And Balochs use also this /w/ on this words?

Firstly Hewrami "werm" is of an irrelevant origin compared to Parthian "wxemn" which is akin to Hewrami "wene" ("siesta").
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

This shows definitely, that Zazaki loaned "hewn" and "xo" from an other iranic language. "Xo" is most likely loaned from Persian "xod". This "ho" what you indicated exists only in a few Dersim-dialects and is only produced by Armenian sound influence.
 
And definitely from which Iranian language they are supposed to be borrowed?! To associate "ho" with any Armenian influence is practically senseless. Regardless of the fact that Zaza itself holds a tendency to change "h" to "x"; where even "humay" becomes "xumay" (dialectally), while no other Iranian language has changed the initial "h" in "homa", "homay", "homayun", etc. to "x".

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

95 % of the Zazas use xo or the deformed versions xui, xu.

Also the bulk of Kirmanji speaking Kurds use "dil" for "heart", nonetheless the original words "zirk"/"zik" are still in effect. Usage degree of a word doesnt change any linguistic facts in an unexceptional manner.
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

- : hesure : wxesureg : father in law

Why you falsify Zazaki?! It is in all dialects vıstıri and it can has both masculine and feminine.

Example: vıstıriyê mı = my father in law, vıstıriya mı = my mother in law.

And this comes according to Paul Ludwig from a proto-form *visa+duxter. In Tati as example means "visite" "husbands sister".

And this forms come according to him from Pahlavi-form "wisduxt".

Here my evidence:

http://zazaki.de/englisch/articels/Paul-1998-Zaza.pdf

 
Why are you that much prejudice when you bump against undesirable facts?! Or maybe you do not know that Zaza "vistewre" (akin to Tati "visite"*) is not related to Kirmanji Kurdish "hosure", Hewrami "hesure", Persian "xesur", and Avestan "hvesure*"?! It is really paradoxical as well as ironic because furthermore you yourself admit that "vistewre" is probably akin to an ancient combination "vise-deuxtere*" which has nothing to do with Old Iranian "hvesure"!!  
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

Where your neutral iranistic evidences Emanoel??

And your these to assimilate Zazaki in to Kurdish is confuted.

 
It is your say-so.
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

Zazaki doesn't come from Proto Kurdish, it's like Balochi and Hewrami from the historical Hyrkan-region, this are the facts my friend. Also Jost Gippert, the most important Iranist in the world see it suchwise.
 
No matter who or how many think what, any theory is capable of getting refuted based on further inferations resulted from authentic materials.


Edited by Quaere Verum - 16-Jun-2010 at 10:45
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Originally posted by Zazagiyan

Persian khod (xod) has not the same root as Germanic *ekon. It comes from Middle Persian xwet, which was in Old Iranian hvet and in Sanskrit svet, which are in relation with German "sich" and Englisch "self".    
 
Sanksrit svet means "white" and English self comes from proto-Germanic *selbaz, I think you are talking about Sasnkrit sva, Avestan hva, Old Persian huva, Modern Persian ou (he/she), Old Church Slavonic svoji (his, her, its), Greek hos (he, she, it), ...
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Regardless of the fact that Zaza itself holds a tendency to change "h" to "x"; where even "humay" becomes "xumay" (dialectally), while no other Iranian language has changed the initial "h" in "homa", "homay", "homayun", etc. to "x".

Which region use instead of "homa" "xoma"?

And definitely from which Iranian language they are supposed to be borrowed?! To associate "ho" with any Armenian influence is practically senseless

Its only exists in a few Dersim regions. And this are dialects they are also changed b > v like "kitab > kitav".

Explain to me:

Why there is this /w/-loud in the totally old word "wahêr" for "owner" which comes from the "wxed"-steme for "self"! In Kurdish xwedî.

Why are you that much prejudice when you bump against undesirable facts?!

Sorry, i thought, you mean with hesure Zazaki, then later I've seen that you mean Hewrami.

There are not any evidences, that Zazaki, Hewrami and Balochi loaned this /w/ from Parthian. The grammer of Zazaki and Balochi shows also, that they are derivated from a Northwest-Iranian dialect which was Parthian near or which was Parthian itself.

While Kurdish is a Mix between Northwestiranian and Southwestiranian. All neutral linguists say this, why you don't accept this fact and will try to declare Zazaki to a mix between Kurmanji and Parthian, which is invalide.

There are loud laws in the linguistic and this shows, that Zazaki /w/ (or Caspian languages H) is Original Northwestiranian while Kurdish xw is from Southwestiranian orign. So what you want discuss? Zazaki is a northwestiranian languages with the northwestiranian /w/-loud.

You can ask the graves of the ancestors of the Zazas if Zazas loaned /w/ or not. LOL
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Sanksrit svet means "white" and English self comes from proto-Germanic *selbaz, I think you are talking about Sasnkrit sva, Avestan hva, Old Persian huva, Modern Persian ou (he/she), Old Church Slavonic svoji (his, her, its), Greek hos (he, she, it), ...

No, I'v meand it with /t/, /t/ is older. It was in Avesta hvet/xvet, in Middle Persian xwet, in Parthian wxed. In Sanskrit so far I know "svet". 

This *selbaz is comes according to Etymonline.com from the PIE *swe-steme.
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Originally posted by Zazagiyan

Which region use instead of "homa" "xoma"?

However it is an off-topic question but I do not know in which region exactly nonetheless according to this glossary they do use "Xuma" for "God" which is derived from "Humay" (no external sources are given there though):

 

http://diq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki-T%C4%B1rkiI

 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

And definitely from which Iranian language they are supposed to be borrowed?! To associate "ho" with any Armenian influence is practically senseless

Its only exists in a few Dersim regions. And this are dialects they are also changed b > v like "kitab > kitav".

Explain to me:

Why there is this /w/-loud in the totally old word "wahêr" for "owner" which comes from the "wxed"-steme for "self"! In Kurdish xwedî.

Sorry "b" > "v" change cannot implicate any disconfirmation to the authenticity of "ho" at all. It is not a matter of "wahér" probably as an ace, since most Old Iranian "hv-" containing words are reflected with "w-" in both Zaza and Gorani. But the question is how to explain "h(w)-" examples such as "ho", "hewn", "hor", "hesure", etc. whilst the current conclusions regarding to Zaza and Gorani languages have overlooked or probably failed to explain all such examples.
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

There are not any evidences, that Zazaki, Hewrami and Balochi loaned this /w/ from Parthian.

The aforementioned Zaza and Gorani words could theoretically serve as evidence, along with other materials which make a contradictory stuff out of pro-Parthian theory.
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

 
The grammer of Zazaki and Balochi shows also, that they are derivated from a Northwest-Iranian dialect which was Parthian near or which was Parthian itself.
 
I am afraid but Zaza grammar highly matches that of Northern Kirmanji. Also initial "w-" (in general not totally) for Old Iranian "hv-" is all Zaza and Baluchi have exclusively got in common.

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

While Kurdish is a Mix between Northwestiranian and Southwestiranian. All neutral linguists say this, why you don't accept this fact and will try to declare Zazaki to a mix between Kurmanji and Parthian, which is invalide.

This idea is based on McKenzie's belief which itself is resulted from an incomprehensive ken on Kirmanjí Kurdish language, as McKenzie himself asseverates he did have the faintest idea about Southern Kirmanji dialect. Nonetheless he also claims that retention of ancient "v" in this dialect is probably due to borrowing from Gorani, a probability which fails to match with realities of Southern Kirmanjí and Goraní indeed. Just a simple comparison between Hewramí and Southern Kirmanjí in this case could tell on it:

 

 
Southern Kirmanjí : Hewramí : Meaning

 

wefr : verwe : snow

 

wayem : vaham : almond

 

weraz : xuk : pig

 

wiz : narewen : wych-elm

 

wish : vac : say

 

wiwar : víyer : passage

 

wirsí : ewra : hungery

 
The above Kirmanjí words do not seem to be borrowed from their Goraní cognates and counterparts at all.
 
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

 
There are loud laws in the linguistic and this shows, that Zazaki /w/ (or Caspian languages H) is Original Northwestiranian while Kurdish xw is from Southwestiranian orign. So what you want discuss? Zazaki is a northwestiranian languages with the northwestiranian /w/-loud.
 
I wonder how come do you insist on current common theories while elsewhere uphold a verily uncommon theory of Hyrcanian?!
 
Also Kirmanjí Kurdish "xw-" is originally "hw-" as Southern dialect attests, thus it could be explained by a Scythian development. Nevertheless "ho-" is also confirmed in a Central Iranian dialect too. I am currently working on it.

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

You can ask the graves of the ancestors of the Zazas if Zazas loaned /w/ or not. LOL
 
 
Probably someone should blame them what for they did not write down any thing until 19th century so that there would be no dispute. Poor things suffered from illiteracy badly.
 
By the way, how come do you use the term "Zaza" as a historical ethnicity whilst as a matter of fact there is not even a single hint of such an ethnic term, but a Kurdish tribe, in the entire history of Middle East (particularly both Ottoman and Iranian historical accounts)? Are you making up some groundless historical demographic claims based on a theoretical linguistic ground?!!


Edited by Quaere Verum - 17-Jun-2010 at 00:28
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Originally posted by Quaere Verum

All due respect D. N. McKenzie is a peerless linguist in terms of studying Middle Persian up to now. If I am not mistaken its Aramaic orthography is "wycytn" which according to McKenzie's dictionary should be read "wizidan". This is the only way to explain how come further we get New Persian "gozidan" (w > g).

 

By the way I have not heard of "vididan" at all.    

 
I don't know why non-Persian speakers should say how we should pronounce our words!! Do you yourself think this word doesn't relate to "chidan"? Maybe he thought we should pronounce this word as "zidan"?! What about the Middle Persian word virextan (Modern Persian gorikhtan) which means "to run away", doesn't it relate to rextan "to leave, to go"? From proto-IE *leik "to leave" (Av. raexnah, Pers. rēxtan, Lith. likti, Ltv. likt, Ir. léicid/, Gm. līhan/leihen, Arm. լքանեմ (lkʿanem), Gk. λείπω (leipō), Skr. रिणक्ति (riṇakti) -> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots/l?ref=hanzuo.com)


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 16-Jun-2010 at 12:18
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Originally posted by Zazagiyan

No, I'v meand it with /t/, /t/ is older. It was in Avesta hvet/xvet, in Middle Persian xwet, in Parthian wxed. In Sanskrit so far I know "svet". 
 
What about Middle Persian xvish? This word in fact means "self" in Persian.
 
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

This *selbaz is comes according to Etymonline.com from the PIE *swe-steme.
 
Etymonline.com says: from base *s(w)e- "separate, apart" (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=self&searchmode=none), the Persian word is sava (separate, apart), Khorasani siva.
 
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
I don't know why non-Persian speakers should say how we should pronounce our words!!
 
 
I too agree that easterns are the best to run oriental studies. Although we cannot object western works just like that but thru rational reasonings.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Do you yourself think this word doesn't relate to "chidan"? Maybe he thought we should pronounce this word as "zidan"?!
 
 
Well for now I just see it similar to other New Persian verb "bixtan" (present stem "biz-) ~ "to sieve" which is related to  "wixtan" (with a present stem "wiz-") in Middle Persian. I do not know maybe Middle Persian "wizidian" is derived from the present stem "wiz-". Do you have any etymological accounts on "wizidan" being combined out of "wi-" + "chidan"?
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

What about the Middle Persian word virextan (Modern Persian gorikhtan) which means "to run away", doesn't it relate to rextan "to leave, to go"? From proto-IE *leik "to leave" (Av. raexnah, Pers. rēxtan, Lith. likti, Ltv. likt, Ir. léicid/, Gm. līhan/leihen, Arm. լքանեմ (lkʿanem), Gk. λείπω (leipō), Skr. रिणक्ति (riṇakti) -> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:List_of_Proto-Indo-European_roots/l?ref=hanzuo.com)
 
I certainly am aware of Middle Persian "wirextan" which its present stem is "wirez-" akin to New Persian "gorixtan" / "goriz-". The Old Iranian root is, if I am not wrong, "raika-*" which becomes rather "raeca-" in Avesta. Usually Old Iranian middle "-k-" first changes into "-c-" and later "-j-" > "-z-" in Southwestern Iranian languages.  
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The problem is that western linguists have defined a sound change rule for Iranian languages and want to explain all words by this rule, but the fact is that sound changes in the Iranian languages don't follow a specific law, or it is better to say there are many different sound changes in the Iranian languages, those linguists say Iranian, like Indian, Slavic, Baltic and etc, is a Satem language, but Latin, Greek, Germanic, Celtic, ... are Centum languages, one of main reason is that velar sound "k" has been shifted to sibilant "s" in these languages, of course about Germanic they say "k" has been changed to a similar voiceless glottal sound "h", so the Germanic word for Latin "Centum" and Avestan "Satem" is "Hund" (Hundred), but we see the number "ten" from PIE *dekm: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ten&searchmode=none O.S. tehan and Skt. dasa, Avestan dasa, Armenian tasn, Gk. deka, L. decem, O.C.S. deseti, Lith. desimt, O.Ir. deich, ... but the Persian word is also dah.
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Posts: 14 		  Quote Zazagiyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2010 at 08:11

@Cyrus

Because Old Persian loses the /s/-loud and changes into a Null-Loud.

So Avesta dasa becomes da0a (speak: daa). Then Middle Persian add this /h/ and makes "dah".
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2010 at 11:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The problem is that western linguists have defined a sound change rule for Iranian languages and want to explain all words by this rule, but the fact is that sound changes in the Iranian languages don't follow a specific law, or it is better to say there are many different sound changes in the Iranian languages, those linguists say Iranian, like Indian, Slavic, Baltic and etc, is a Satem language, but Latin, Greek, Germanic, Celtic, ... are Centum languages, one of main reason is that velar sound "k" has been shifted to sibilant "s" in these languages, of course about Germanic they say "k" has been changed to a similar voiceless glottal sound "h", so the Germanic word for Latin "Centum" and Avestan "Satem" is "Hund" (Hundred), but we see the number "ten" from PIE *dekm: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ten&searchmode=none O.S. tehan and Skt. dasa, Avestan dasa, Armenian tasn, Gk. deka, L. decem, O.C.S. deseti, Lith. desimt, O.Ir. deich, ... but the Persian word is also dah.
 
I do agree at all. Maybe even a considerable amount of their theories be wrong. Specially those that concern non-European languages. After all they are theories and for sure they are capable of getting refuted or revised in a reasonable manner at any time.
 
Well as far as I know PIE "k" usually changes into  P.Germanic "kh" which later is reflected mostly as "h" in related Germanic languages due to a very plausible "kh" > "h" change. For example PIE "kwon*" ~ "dog" > PGermanic "khundas*", German "Hund" and English "hound" or as you truly mentioned PIE "dekm*" which becomes "tekhan*" in PGermanic and then German "zehn" and English "ten" (with dropping middle "-h-"). But if I am not gonna be mistaken, you have got them bro. I mean there had to be "khunda*" instead of "hunda*" as they suggested for PGermanic cognate of PIE "kmtom*". I do not know maybe they imply a difference between "k" in "dekm*" or "kwon*" and that "k" of "kmtom*"? Do you have any idea regarding this?

 

 

By the way there is already a suggestion for Persian "h" as a result from Old Iranian "s": this ancient sound "s" changes to "th" in Old Persian (as Old Persian texts witness) and later, most likely under a Parthian influence, Southwestern dialects including Persian varieties into either "h" or "t".  
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Posts: 550 		  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2010 at 05:45
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince



Similar to what happend with Jamaica.  The name Jamaica was given by the native indians and the current people who live in Jamaica only have a small fraction of native indian ancestory and no culturel and linguistic ties to the native indians i think?.
 
Unfortunately I have no idea about Jamaicans.
 
Originally posted by Ince

 

The Medes were not the first Aryan that came to where Kurds live, their was also the Mittani.  Their are even Kurdish tribes that are called "Mattini/Milani/Milli" and tribe by the name of "Sindi" as the Mittani are believed to have been Sindis from India.
 
Well as a matter of fact, a little is known about Mitanni language. Nonetheless the bulk of original Kurdish words appear to be either of Mede or Scythian origin. And its ergative characteristic (as a grammatical feature) is referred to a Hurrian background. By the I believe Medes entered the area simultaneously (some 1000 to 2000 years BC). Nonetheless they stablished their own kingdom 700 years BC.  

 
Originally posted by Ince

  Also, I have read people dissmising the claim that the Kurds that lived in the Fars and with the Sassanids were not related to todays Kurds maybe to distance any connection between Kurds and Sassanids?.  For example here http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/origins-of-kurds-in-preislamic-iran.pdf 

That was where I read that word Kurd in pre-islamic iran was reffered to as Nomads and Sheppards.
 
I think you have to read Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan it describes the history of Sassanid dynasty in their own words. Smile Just google it to find an English version of it. There you obviously face the word "Kurd" as a distinguished ethnic group amongst which Sassanian Persians used to live during the so-called bestial reign of Alexander's successors. As I explained before, to use the term "Kurd" for "Nomadic peoples" was a mistake done by early Arabic conquerers of Iran, and it is by no means restricted to "Nomads" since Arabs indicate Daylamites as "Kurds of Gilan" whilst Daylamites were for sure either rural or urban! But in case of using "Kurd" to describe "shepherds", yes I have already heard of such a usage in some modern Iranian languages including Sangsari (a Northwestern Iranian language spoken around Semnan) in which "kurd" is used along with "coppon" in sense of "shepherd". But it has nothing to do with the pretention that there was no specific ethnic group called "Kurd" in the pre-Islamic era, since the oldest Middle Persian text in reach, namely Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan is to discern an ethnic "Kurd" from a "shepherd" explicitly! Here you are:
 
 
My Middle Persian is not that much good but it says:
 
"And in the hardships due to Alexander, forefathers fleed and got hidden and went towards "Kurdish shepherds".
 
Source: Karnamagi Ardaxshiri Pabagan, Chapter i, sentence 6, romanization by David. N. McKenzie.
 
 
 
 


I cannot seem to find the english version to read it. Is that same book that says Ardashir 1 was half a Kurd?. 

What about the Kurds of Anatolia? They were seperated from the Sassanids multiple times for long periods.  Did the Kurds of Anatolia always live in central to east Anatolia or were they moved more recently?  I know that Kurds that live in west Anatlolia were moved their by the ottomans.  Then the Cordune come in, some believe the Cordune were droven out/assimilated by the modern day Kurds who came from West Iran.  As not much is known about them like what langauge they spoke. 
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