Iranian Languages
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28259
Printed Date: 15-Jun-2024 at 20:16
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Topic: Iranian Languages
Posted By: Ince
Subject: Iranian Languages
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 06:21
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When did the modern Iranian languages evolve? How much of it is outside influenced. Did the Turkic control of Iran have any linguastic influence on the Iranian langauges? Did the Iranians of Parthia and Sassanid era all spoke a closer langauge to eachother? |
Replies:
Posted By: SonOfIran
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 17:50
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Well, Persian began evolving ever since the creation of Old Persian (Achaemenids) to Middle Persian (Parthians/Sassanids) to New Persian (modern day Iran). The exact same language that was spoken by the Sassanids is currently being used in Afghanistan (Dari).
Turkic languages have had very little linguistic influence on Persian; Persian has had a large impact on Turkish, though.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 12:00
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If you cansider modern Persian, Turkic languages have certainly had a strong influence on our language, it can be said at least one half of modern Persians words have Turkic, Arabic and Mongolic origins, of course it is not difficult to distinguish these words from otiginal Persian words, for example we know there is no q (ق) sound in Persian, so all words in Persian with sound have either Turkic or Arabic origin, of course Turkic word seems to be much more, if you just open the "Q" sections of a Persian dictionary then you will find hundreds Turkic words, like Qab "Plate, Dish", Qablama "Steam-tight", Qabuq "Skin", Qaen "Brother of husband", ...
About Ashkani Pahlavi and Sassanid Pahlavi, these are really similar to each other and modern Persian-speaking people can understand both languages, of course there are some differences between these languages, for example this is trilingual (Greek, Parthian and Persian) inscription of Ardashir I, the founder of Sassanid empire, in Naghsh-i-Rustam:
Ashkani Pahlavi (Pathian):
Patkar im mazdyazn bagh Artaxshathr, shahan shah Aryan, ki chihr azh yaztan, puhr bagh Papak shah.
Sassanid Pahlavi (Middle Persian):
Patkar in mazdyasn bagh Artaxshathr, shahan shah Iran, ke chithr hach yazdan, pus bagh Papak shah.
Modern Persian:
In Peykar khodaygan mazdiasn Ardashir, shahanshah-e Iran, ke chehr az yazdan, pesar-e khodaygan Babak shah [ast].
English:
This is the worshipper of Mazda the lord Ardashir, the king of kings of Iran, whose face resembles that of God and is the son of the lord Papak Shah. ------------- 
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Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 13:26
That statement is a bit misleading. Modern Persian seems to be somewhat unique in this regard. Since a single word can be expressed with synonyms from European, Middle Eastern, and central Asia languages along with original Persian word itself. Vast majorities of foreign loaned words in Persian have a native Persian synonym in modern Persian. This could be because the language has been around for a long time and has been used in a location, which is a cross road |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 20:16
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That is a good mention, you can hardly find a large book like the Persian book of Shahnameh of Ferdosi with almost no non-Persian words in other languages, even in modern times there are some people like Dr. Kazzazi (his website: http://www.kazzazi.com - http://www.kazzazi.com ) who can speak Persian without using any non-Persian words, of course it can't be denied that some loanwords are easier to say than original Persian words, for example there was certainly a Persian word for "restaurant" but that was "khordipazkhanag" (place for eating food). -------------
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2010 at 06:27
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Thanks for everyones reply, I have noticed that Turkish has many Persian words. I use to wonder why Turkish use to have so many Kurdish words like Xosh,Her Kez,Chare..ect then I found out that it was influenced by Persian. I have noticed that the word for name in farsi is "Esmeh" it sounds very similar to Turkish and Arabic word for name. Other iranian languages use Nam or Nav. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-Apr-2010 at 15:53
| Does anyone have any info on the Kurdish dialects Gorani? It's origin? I just cannot understand hardly what a Gorani speaker says at all. I understand and speak Kurmanji a bit and can pretty much understand Sorani about the same as it does not have big difference to Kurmanji. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 13:35
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i am speaking kalhor dialect which is very near or simmilar to gorani . sandjabi and ghalkhni which are south kurdish tribes dialects and near to sorani dialect spoken in iraqi kurdestan. no wonder that you do not understand south kurdish dialects. we may understand kurmanji , but speaking kurmanji even hawrami and zaza is impossible for me . the south kurdish dialects are very mixed or if not drived from sasanid (pahlavi language) origin, because the region where we lived was in the heart of sasanid empire.(between biseton and ctisfon)
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 15:59
For me I think it is the accent and they way they pronounce words that makes the difference. at times I can pick up more of a what Persian speaker says. I my self can understand Kuramnji ok not great. but I cannot speak it maybe some words at times. It's like I've forgot the language and get reminded when I hear it. Heres an example of Hawramani. Apart from maybe few words I cannot understand anything else. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GERJdZl5goo |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 16:18
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Also balochi is meant to be the closest langauge to Kurdish dialects yet I cannot understand anything they say. They speak in a Indian accent and I cannot make out any words they say. I can understand Tajik and Farsi much more better. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 16:57
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I found this and thought I post it on this thread. Note ş=Sh, ç=Ch Kurdish is Kurmanji/Sorani Persian : Kurdish : Zazakî : English şeb : şev/w : şewe : day rûz : roj : roce/roje/roze : day zêmêstan : zivistan/zimistan : zimistan : winter payîz : payîz : payîz : autumn fesl : werz : waxt : season sal : sal/sall : serre : year zeman/dem : dem/kat/sat/taw/tad : dem/taw : time dêrext : dar : dar : tree mah : heyv/mang/meh: aşme/menge : moon/month ebr : ewr/hewr : hewr : cloud gol : gûl : vil : flower kûh : çiya/kêw/şax/ko : ko : mountain ahen : asin/esin : asin : iron asiman : asman/ezman/siqa : asmên/ezmîn : sky roşenayî : ronî/ronakî/roşna : roştî/roşna : light berf : befr/berf/wefr : vewre : snow giyah/sebzê : giya/biheş : vaş : grass mêh : mij : mic : fog bad : b/wa : va : wind ab : av/w : aw(k) : water şo'lê/şerarê/azerexş : bilûske/birûsk : blosk : flame/lightening baran : b/waran : varan : rain berg : belg/welg : velg : leaf sêtarê : stêr/estêre/hes(t)are : estare/astare : star xaher : xweh/xweyşk/xwîsk : waye : sister nam : nav/naw/nam : name : name mader : dayk/mak/daye/mader : maye : mother pêder : bav/bab/bawk/piyar : pî : father merd : mêrd/piyaw : ca-mêrd êzdêvac : zewac/marî : zewac : marriage bîve : bî/bîwe : viye : widow cevan : cûwan/ciwan : genc : young damad : zava/zawa/zama : zama : sun-in-law dozd : diz : dizd : thief zen : jin/jen : cênî/cinî mêhman : mêvan/mêman : mêman : guest merdom : merdim/mirov : merdûm/merdim/mordem zîr : jêr : cêr : under/below gam : gam/gav : gam : step çêşmê/xan : kanî : henî/hênî : well/spring kard : kard/kêrd : kardî kar : kar : kar : word/labor der : derî/derga : kê-ber pol : pird/pir : pird : bridge dêh/rûsta : gûnd/dê : dewe/deĝa rast : rast : rast : right çep : çep : çep :left şanê : şane : şane : comb balêş : balîf/baliş : balişna : pillow ca : cê/cêga/cih : ca : place şam : şîv/şîm : şamî : dinner esel/engêbîn : hengwên/hengîv : hemgên : honey gendom : genim : genim : wheat nana : nan : nan : bread sîb : sêv/w : saye : apple gûşt : goşt : goşt : meat şîr : şîr : şît : milk ard : ard/ar : ardî : flour mast : mast : mast : yogurt ser : ser : ser : head şêpêş : espije : espije/espize : louse kolyê : gûrçik/gûrçîle : velik : kidney zeban: ziman/ziwan//zûwan : ziwan/zûwan/zon dendan : didan/dan/diyan : dindan : tooth leb : lêv/lêw/lîp : lew : lip dest : dest : dest : hand xûn : xwîn/xwêyn : gonî : blood ebrû : birow/birû : birûy/bûrî : eye-brow ostoxan : este/heste/hêstik : este : bone gûş : gwê/gwêyşke/gûh/goşke : goş : ear dom : dû/dûv/dûçke/dim : dim/dimoçik/doçik : tail rû/sûret : rû/bîç : rî : face sengîn (geran) : giran : giran : heavy xerab : xirab/w : xirab/v : dickey/bad teng : teng/tenik : teng : tight/narrow por : pirr : pirr : full xoş : xweş : weş : fine/sweet kohen/kohnê : kevn/kewn/kewne : khan : antique sebok : sivik/sewk : sivik/senik : light/slight merîz/naxoş : nexweş : neweş : ill amade : amade : amade : ready tarîk : tarî/tarîk/darîk : tarî : dark azad : azad : azad : free germ : germ : germ : worm serd : sar/serd/soll : serd : cold têşnê : tî/tînî/tînig : têşan : thirsty dur : dur : dur : far dêraz : dirêj : derg : long bolend : berz/bilind : berz : tall nezdîk : nêzîk : nezdî : near tenha : tenê/tenya : teyna : alone nîmê : nîv/nîwe/nîme : nême : half tazê/nô : nû/nûwe/noy/new : newe : new gorosnê : birsî/birçî/wirsî : vêşan : hungry tû/der : le/de/li/di/ne : de : in arê : erê/ê/ey : eya : yes ba : be/bi : be : with xod : xwe/xo : xwi/xo/ho baxod : bixwe/bexo : bexo : (with) itself çend : çend : çend/çand : how much çêra : çima/çira/boçî/perçî : çira : why kêy : kengê/key/ken : key : when ber : ber/wer : ver : fore/front bî : bê : bê : without hest : heye/hes : est : it exists ne : na/ne/no : ne : no solh/aştî : aştî : aştî : peace yad (bîr) : bîr/wîr : vîrî : remembrance dêl : dill (zill) : zerre : heart kes : kes : kes : someone/person bûsê/maç : paç/maç/mûç : baç : kiss sahêb : xawen : wayir : possessor/owner xoda : xwedê/xûday/xwa : hûmay : God ceng : şerr/ceng : ceng : war sêda/bang : deng/bang : veng : voice soal (pors) : pirs : pers : question dam : dav/daw/dam : dame : snare şerm : şerm : şerm : shame xab : xewn/xew : hewn : sleep dorûĝ : direw : zûrî : lie qesem/sogend : sond/at (?) : sond : swear bes : bes : bes : enough bar : bar : bar : burden sêfîd : sipî : sipê/sipî : white siyah : reş/siye : siya : black qêrmêz/sorx : sûr/sor : sûr : red zerd : zerd/zer : zerd : yellow zerr : zêrr : zerrn : gold noqrê (sîm) : zîv/sîm : sêm : sîlvêr gav : ga/gaw : ga : cow xer : ker : her : donkey boz : bizin : bize : goat berrê : berx/werek : verek : goatling mîş : mî/pez/mêş : miye/mêş : sheep gorg : gûr/gûrg/werg : verg : wolf cûcêtîĝî : jûjî/jûşk : jûje/cûce : hedgehog mar : mar : mar : snake esp (ester) : esp/hesp/ester mûş : mişk : merre : mouse esp (ester) : esp/hesp/ester : estor : horse mahî : masî : mase : fish gorbê : kitik/pişik/pisî : pising : cat morĝ : mamir/mirîşk/kerg : kerge : hen kûrmûş : koremişk : herremûşk : mole rûbah : rovî/rêvî : lûwe : fox xûk : beraz/xûk/xwîg : xozî : pig xêrs : hirç/hirş/wirç : heş : bear yêk : yek/êk/ye : yew/yo/jû : one do : du/didu : di/didi : two sê : sê : hirê : three çahar : çwar/çar : çar : four penc : pênc/penc : panc : five şîş : şeş : şeş :six heft : heft/hewt : hewt : seven heşt : heşt/heyşt : heşt/heyşt : eight noh : neh/now : new : nine deh : deh/de : des : ten kerden : kirin/kirdin : kerdene : to do morden : mirin/mirdin : merdene : to die xasten : xwastin/wîstin : wastene : to want bordan : birin/birdin : berdene : to carry avorden : anîn/hênan/awirdin : ardene : to bring ameden : hatin : amayene : to come gêrêften : girtin : girewtene/gûretene : to take xanden : xwendin : wendene : to read dûşîden : dotin : ditene : to milk borîden : birrîn : birrnayene : to cut gêryê kerden (gêrîsten) : giryîn/girîn : bermayene : to cry nêvêşten : nûsîn/nivîsîn : nûştene : to write manden : man : mendene : to remain daden : dan/dayîn : dayene : to give koşten : kûştin : kiştene : to kill sûxten : şewitin/sûçyan : veşayene : to burn gerdîden : gerryan/gorîn : vurnayene : to turn into forûxten : firotin : rotene : to sell xaranden/xarîden : xurandin/xûrîn : hûryayene : to itch nûşîden (aşamîden) : vexwarîn/hellqorrîn : şimitene : to drink bûden/şoden : bûn/bûyîn/bîn : biyene : to become/to be fehmîden : fehm kirdin/têgeyştin : fehm kerdene : to understand nêşêsten : rû nîstin/da nîştin : ro niştene : to sit/ sit down poxten : pehtin/kûllyan : potene : to cook danêsten : zanîn/zanistin : zanayene/zanitene : to know |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 14:50
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Whiles doing more research on the Kurdish languages I found this. "In fact, the current thinking is that the Kurdish language Kurmanji originated in southern Iran, while Zazaki, Kirmancki and Gurani originated in northern Iran (McKenzie, 1961: 68-86; Minorsky, 1964: 13-14 and Izady 1988: 23 "
Professor Garnik Asatrian (Yerevan University) (2009). Could this be true? It will turn the current theory of the origins of the Kurds upside down. That Kurmanji and Sorani originated further south Iran, more near Lurs?. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 18:01
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Ince actually the first place which is called geografically kordestan in iran is the kordestan province in iran with the city of sanandaj as center, this place has been always called kordestan upp to our days,
the kurdish language is one of the most richest language in dialects. from one village to another sometime you may need a translator  there are so many dialects and often in these dialects either the differene is on pronociation of words or the word which have been taken from nearby civilisations like persian and arab and turcs maybe , i find something very intersting that kurmanji dialect is some how more near to persian language than sorani and other south dialects like min own kalhori dialect. hawramani and gorani and kalhori are more different some time very difficult for outsider to prononse or understand and feyli which is spoken in eilam province is very near to lori in words, but gramatically much more kurdish and different from actuall lori spoken in lorestan province in fars bakhtiari and tribes around isfahan, then we have a group of language called LEKI spoken in many cities like , sahane, kangavar , hersin , nahavand upp to hamadan surounding cities of kermanshah, leki is so near kurdish that easily could be understood by kurdi speaking people rather than farsi speaking and why many times it is classified as a kurdish dialect. the leks sometime they call themselves Lek and sometime kurd too it depends to their mood!! i discover one funny and intresting thing when i saw an old text in old pahlawi language that i can understand the text more easily , because of my kalhori dialect than my knowledge in modern farsi  . it seems the southern kurdi dialects are more near to pahlwi language than modern farsi and another intersting thing was i could understand some words and even meanings in pashto language when i saw news from afghanistan on tv!! |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 18:36
That was one of the most oddest things I noticed. I can understand a Farsi speaker just as much as I can a Gorani. At times I can pick up more words from a Farsi speaker. This because of the way Gorani/Zazaki pronounce words, Kurmanji and Sorani pronounce many words more similar to Persian. So this theory that Kurmanji originated more further south might have merit to it. It might also rule out the Corduene as the ancestors of the Kurds. As not much information is known about them or wether they even spoke a Iranian language. Plus Corduene/Gorduene was most part of it's history was not under Persian control. What about the name Kurd? where did it originated. Some people claim the Modern term, poped up after the fall of the Sassanids. During the Sassanids, the term Kurd was used to describe Nomads, so how did all the current Kurdish tribes be known as Kurds? Could the Medes that lived in the regions that Kurds live today have been Kurdified? maybe the name changed gradually. As it is also written that Arabs used to refer to the regions where Kurds lived as Kurds as well. It could of been a social label that grew to describe everyone in the region. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 18:58
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it has so many different speculation about the origin of name kurd. one was the explanation of our litrature teacher att school was this:. that is might reffering to word GORD in pahlawi language which means warrior as we know in my region the southern kurdish tribes were very close to sasanide and they were presented as cavalay force and that our tribe kalhor is often called tribe of bavandi or bavandpour. our region was called bavandpori. there are people in mazandaran province which are speaking a dialect which is very close to ours and it is said they have same origin as us ( house of bavand sasani), they are bavandi( a people of sasanide origin) sasanides had kermanshah as capital, but some of sasanides after arab invasion moved to mazandaran and organised a resistance there - i am not historien scholar like the gentlemen in thise history site and not studied history i don't know how right or wrong is these things. in languages i am speaking from my own observation only because i lived in many different places and was forced to learn their languages.
one other explanation was the name of different tribes orginated from figurative on their banner when they were presnted in sasanide army , like goran( 2 deers) and ghalkhani (ghalkhan means scheild) and kalhor which means KAL= wild goat and HUR (sun) they had and wild goat and sun on their flag. this is true about turcs too like aq. quionlu och qara quionlu . white sheep and black sheep turkish tribes it seems people got called after the figuratives on their banner.
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 19:14
I read once somewhere that it might of been Gord, it was changed Kurd because Arabs can't pronounce G so they used K instead, the same way for Parsi/Farsi. But it seems unlikey tho. Some claim that Sassanids has names that were similar to Kurdish words, I cannot understand my self and doubt it as well. Maybe you can. Erdeshīr Ezdigirt Źnoshīrewan Erdewan |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 19:38
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in our tribe the names are very much like old sasanides. both men and women. goudars. yamasp ,tamasp. ardawan, sasan,( dara , iredj . esfandiar, fariborz,shapour, hoshang, dariush, kayghobad , kayvan, kamran and women irandokht, torandokt, porandokht,shirin , my grand mother's name was arezoo and my mother irandokht
) these last names inside parantes is all the names in my own family and many of relatives have very old iranic names like the late uncle azarbarzin!! khan |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 14:00
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kurmanji spoken in northern parts of iraq and turkey is much more near to persian than south kurdish dialect, exemple farsi khadane be zabane kordi(it is writen khvandan in persian like kurmani ,but spoken khandan!!!) kurmanji kvandena va zemana kordi. my dialect. xwenin wa zwanie kordi
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 16:24
Kurmanji is believed to have originated near the Luristan and Isfahan provance and shares many similarties with the Persian dialect. Actually Sorani is little more closer to Persian, but Kurmanji does a have a few words that are similar that Sorani does not. My theory is that the Kurmanji speakers migrated to north to Anatolia during or after the Sassanids. The term Kurd was most likely adopeted by the the Kurds after the fall of the Sassanids, as the word Kurd meant Nomadic tribes,Iranian tribes during the Sassanid era. In the Mazandarani language it means Sheppard, maybe the region was called Kurd and Median tribes came together do to similarties and adopted the name Kurd. Also it is strange that Kurmanji shares similarties with Persian, yet majortiy of the time after fall of the Sassanids they were out of Persian control. So I doubt the Corduene were ancestors of the Kurds as they were very unfriendly towards Persia and was mostly under Roman/Byzantine control. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:06
| In farsi go/gone means raftan. In Kurmanji it's haran/cun but raftan also has similar meaning. I asked my mother what Raftan means, she said it means someone whos gone quickly I am not sure if all Kurmanji speaks have the same. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:09
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Hey kalhur, heres a Zaza song. See if you can understand much. I can only pick up a few words and the Zaza only live a few miles from my village I was born in. http://www.youtube.com/user/Garudaa#p/f/0/fVjL_muy6vM - http://www.youtube.com/user/Garudaa#p/f/0/fVjL_muy6vM |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:28
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ha ha not much i could understand, but when sewan perwer singing i understand nearly 90%. try masod azizi on you tube he is singing in kalhuri , then tell me how much you understand of his songs
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:36
I can pick up many words. I can understand Sorani more but I can pick up a lot of words tho. it might be the accent difference. I have a hard time understanding Gorani,Hawramni. My Kurdish is not great that either, I can barely speak it. but can understand it Ok but not all. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:49
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Hey Kalhur. Heres Sivan Perwer singing in Zaza. I did not know what Xime Xime meant, I asked my mother she said it means something like "What do you mean". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj45NH9EMcs |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 17:51
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we had a very odd dialect in my tribe, but i love it. i understand very much gorani and hawaramani too. i love dialect of senna and hawrami . they have very talented musician like mez-her xaleqi he is absolutely my favourite. kamkaran,too and rojan also and many many others. i listen asmuch to kurdish music and some time more than persian. and kurmanji only few i know like sewan perwer i understand his songs very well. it is real fun to listen to music of different kurdish dialects
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:02
I listen to a lot of Kurdish music as well. I don't understand Gorani and Hawrmani much but I still like the music. I even listen to some Persian music as it sounds familiar as well. Heres a few Kurmanji songs that are my favs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yfKrjFZBU (I know some persians who like this and can understand some of it) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwGHlR2qVM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG6TkbsNb04 |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:12
| i can't open your web links any longer please writh the name i can search on youtube |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:21
Here you go Diyar - Serin Serin Diyar - Leyla Kurdish Music- Agir Ketyê Dilemin (Izzet Yildizhan) |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:35
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Kalhur, you should see this, Kuramnji Comedy kurmanji comedy part1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6WzxmvMavY |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:39
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agir ketye dilimen haha wa kalhuri bood
ager kaftie wa deli men shirin nawie duywate mene= my daughter's name is shirin. ha ha |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:45
| we may should ask cyrus for making a music corner for all iranian and iranic folklores and songs. from every corner of iran and kurdestan, afganestan . tajikestan . uzbakestan azari, kavkas . it would be very nice ! |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2010 at 18:48
I don't think he will do that as this is a history forum. But it would be good tho. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2010 at 16:59
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Does anyone know if the Kurdish words for father "Bova" and the word for Daughter "Keca" is iranian in origin? or is it from another langauge?
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 10:10
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Tajik girls are beautiful, I think. Don't know bout their music. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 13:58
Bova sounds like papa or baba the slang for father in many langugages I don't think that the actual word for father in Kurdish |
Posted By: Miller
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 13:59
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR1kQxhC01M&sns=em |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 14:03
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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 14:43
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what about this nice uzbaki song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOL614AifXc
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 01-May-2010 at 16:54
It is the word for father in Kurdish, in Kuramanji and Sorani and I think Gorani as well. It's actually Bov but some say Bova. Could of been from the Hurrians, some claim Kurdish has some influence from the Hurrian language. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-May-2010 at 10:40
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I think Miller is right about the Kurdish word for "father", that is similar to Luri "Boa" and Arabic "Baba" but the word for daughter, as I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28346 - Kurds are German? : In Greek gyne means "woman" but in Kurdish that is jin/zjin, in Persian zan and Slavic zena but in Germanic that is kwen/ken (English queen), so like several other words, "g" has been changed to "k" in the Germanic languages, but does "ken" mean "woman" in the Iranian languages too? The original Hewrami/Gorani word for "daughter" is "Kenacha" ("Ken"=woman + diminutive suffix "cha"), that is similar to Sistani Kenja (Young girl, daughter), Tati/Talysh Kina (little gril, daughter), Gilaki/Mazandarani Kija (daughter), Bojnurdi Khorasani Kechek, Sorani Kizj, ... -------------
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 03-May-2010 at 20:03
In kurmanji daughter is Keche/Dot and mother is Dayi/Dayik and Uncle is Mam. Kurds claim, Kurdish has alot of Hurrian words like the word for mother is Hurrian in origin. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-May-2010 at 22:13
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I think Kurdish Dayi is certainly the same as Persian Daie but it never means "mother" but "a female servant who feeds milk to a baby instead of mother", am I right?
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dairy&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dairy&searchmode=none
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dey - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dey
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-May-2010 at 22:51
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This is really interesting that Iranians consider "Daie, aziztar az Madar" (Daie, dearer than Mother), for example about the Prophet Muhammad, you can compare Halimah, his Daie, to Aminah, his mother or Barakah, his foster mother in the Iranian view, maybe for this reason some Iranian people call their Mother, both "Madar" and "Daie". -------------
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 02:45
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I need the Persian translation for 'Beautiful Sister'. I'd prefer a short, punchy version if available.
My own amateur efforts using various online dictionaries have yielded me 'Ziba Baji'. Would that be the correct phrase? Or is there a better one?
Also, if anyone can give me the Persian translations for 'Huntress', 'Princess' and 'Warrioress' (i.e. female warrior), that would be great.
Also, a question: was Persian spoken to any significant extent in Constantinople and/or the rest of the empire of Byzantium - maybe as an alternative to Greek, perhaps among certain sections of the people - during the early to middle 11th century? That would be around the time of Emperor Basil II. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 05:23
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"Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba Baji" is an Azeri phrase, the Persian word for sister is "Xahar", another word is "Hamshire" which originally means "milk shared", so can mean both brother and sister but it is mostly used for "sister".
There is no suffix, like English -ess, which forms nouns denoting female gender in the Modern Persian language, of course the suffix -dokht can be used form some words, like "Shahdokht" (daughter of the king) for "Princess".
It seems to be possible, especially in the 11th century when Persian literature and poetry reached its zenith. -------------
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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 13:52
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when i listen to turkish music from turkey i can notice that there are huge amount of persian words used. is this connection is due to having a persian speaking minority in turkey before the ughus migration or the turkish spoken by oghus were already so deeply mixed with persian from the begining before migration to actual trkey? for exemple the uzbak language is so mixed with persian that there are many persian words in nearly every sentence
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 15:58
It could be Dayik is similar to Persian one and some Kurds claim the words comes from the Hurrians, but I cannot find a online langauge list for Hurrian, I am not sure about it. Also many Kurds have different or multiple words for many things. In the Kurmanji langauge depends on the location of the speaker, for example nearly all Ser means head but also in some, my family also use "Kura" for head and it also means son Kur. I have even heard my family members refer to mom as Alek as well. Also Dot means daughter of a uncle/aunt in my familys Kurmanji. ------------- |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:09
I noticed that as well. I can speak Turkish and pickup the ones that are similar to Kurdish and know that they were Persian inluenced. for example "Her kez ne dede" "What did everyone say" ------------- |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:17
Cyrus, Tu and Shoma mean you in Farsi, are both used or is Shoma used more? ------------- |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 16:30
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Kalhur listen to Mahsun Kirmizigul, his a Kurdish born singer in Turkey, his very big in Turkey and also Ibrahim Tatlises who is half arab and Kurd and is the biggest music star in Turkey ever. Then their is also Ahmet Kaya who was born in my city of Malatya and was exiled , because he supported the Kurdish cause and died in 2000, before he had spoken out about the Kurdish problem, he was one of the biggest selling artists in Turkey. Heres Mahsun Kirmizigul, the song was released in the mid 90s and he wrote it abot the Kuirds, and it means "The friendship song" and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQrBmJ-9PPk Heres him singing in Kurdish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40BJS2cxm5Y Heres Ahmet Kaya, he wrote this song about the Kurdish struggle and songs title means "As we cry" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU0qlBOyP8w This is my fav Ahmet Kaya song, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvBqMKvSl3Y ------------- |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 17:13
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the titlte mahsun kirmizigul = gule ghermeze mahzun in persian the sad red rose in english . only the tittle itself is speaking about the influence of persian in turkish and turkish in persian, in my kalhur dialect the word "dyoat " is used for girl unlike kech in sorani and " kele" oer "kapol" is used for head. mother --- mameg or dayeg
father .... baweg brother.... bra sister----- xwaisheg uncle from father side---- mamoo uncle from mother side .... xaloo son ---- kor daughter---- dyuat man---- piyay woman---- jen |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 04-May-2010 at 17:28
Those are similar to Kurmanji in Turkey, Baweg but we say Bav/Bove and sister is xweh And the word for Uncles are the same, and ,son Kur,brother Bira, women Jin ------------- |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 02:54
Thanx, Cyr. So I could use 'Ziba Baji' then, I guess. Actually, I sort of made up the combination myself after obtaining, separately, the terms for 'beautiful' and 'sister'. It's for a little story I'm writing. So 'Baji' would also mean 'sister' in Turkmen then, right? Since Turkmen is also a Turkic language.
'Xahar' would be pronounced in Persian as 'Khahar', wouldn't it? As in 'Haxamanesh' = 'Hakhamanesh', right? ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 09:36
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""Ziba" means "beautiful" but "Baji" is a Turkic word, I think "Ziba
Baji" is an Azeri phrase"- There is nothing as "ziba" in Azeri Turkish. Its "gözel/gözəl". Bacı indeed means sister. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 09:45
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Hurrian is a very old language, even proabably older than proto-Indo-European language, for example I had mentioned in another thread that the proto-IE word *bhurgh (tower) has a Hurro-Urartian origin, so Middle Persian burg, Armenian burgn and proto-Germanic *burg come from this word, of course similar words can be seen in the Semitic languages too, like Aramaic burgin and Arabic burj.
Kurds lived in region where ancient Gutians, who were probably a Germanic people, lived, I had said that there was no "L" sound in the old Iranian languages, so it has been usually changed to "R", for example Latin gelu (Cold) has been changed to English Cold (g->k) and Persian/Kurdish Sard (g->s & l->r). The Germanic word for head is "Kulla" (g->k), the Persian word is "Sar" (g->s & l->r) but "Kalle" is also used (Kula means hat), that is really interesting that the Kurdish word is "Kura" (just l->r), that is similar to Persian "Kura" which means "colt" (just l->r) and of course "child" (Germanic Kult), like Kurdish "Kur". -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 10:13
"Tou" is certainly used more than "Shoma", in fact "Shoma" is plural but also formal singular. You probably know that "Shoma" comes from Avestan "Yushma". -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 10:45
I just know "Baji" is certainly a Turkic word, so it could be used in the different Turkic languages, about "Xahar", you are right it is pronounced as "Khahar" but is spelled as "Khwahar". -------------
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Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 11:23
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"So I could use 'Ziba Baji' then" Dardania, in Azeri Turkish, its "gözəl bacı". Opposite to what Cyrus says, "ziba baji" is not an Azeri phrase, as there is nothing as "ziba" in Azeri Turkish. |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 17:31
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Cheers then, guys. Great stuff. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 05-May-2010 at 17:41
There is a state (more like a region or province, but with its own hereditary sultan, we being a confederal monarchy) called Perak, in Malaysia, just to the south of another state named Kedah. The people there use 'koma', in their own local colloquial dialect, for the plural 'you'. I wonder if that had any link with the Persian 'shoma'.
Or maybe that 'koma' could have been a local adaptation of the Arabic 'kum' ('you'). ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 00:14
Are you really an Azeri?! Do you want to say there isn't any Persian loan word in Azeri language? Do you know "azeri.org" website?!
http://azeri.org/Azeri/az_english/81_folder/81_articles/81_storenames.html - http://azeri.org/Azeri/az_english/81_folder/81_articles/81_storenames.html
Where's the Azeri?
Trends Among Store Signs in Baku
Female Names Often stores are given female names. One such store is the fashionable women's boutique named Ziba (66 Nizami). Ziba is a common female name of Persian etymology meaning "beautiful". -------------
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 03:06
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Cool.
Now, the next stage of the problem, how do I modify my story to make the name (a nickname, actually) 'Ziba Baji' sound like a plausible one for my heroine-to-be.
Maybe I could make the little boy (her friend's son) who calls her by that name as half-Persian, half-Turkmen, or something like that.  ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 06:18
please be very careful do not try to combine any azari turkish and persian without studying it's meaning in turkish in turkey!!! , sometime the same word despite being nice in azari can have a very bad significant in turkish in turkey!!!! once i was in a party and anewly arrived azari friend of mine asked if anyone could speak azari with him and the only guest who was turkish speaking was osman efendi from turkey!!! i introduced them a few minute later i saw osman face red  and i asked him if he enjoy speaking turkish with my azari friend.he answered to the hell no i asked why and he told me how could you bring this man to the party with you? i asked what is wrong ? he answered: your friend has no honour!!! all his family even mother and sisters and brothers are working hard!!! at a brothel they own i told him i know his family they don't need to do so they own a little factory not a brothel!!! the word KARKHANEH in iran means factory and in turkey a brothel
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 08:57
 That is Karkhane (House of Work), everyone can work there!  -------------
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 18:06
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It's like in England, if I recall correctly, if you say a girl is 'on the game' then she's in that 'job', i.e. the world's oldest 'profession'. You know. 'Good time girl' is another expression. In the US, I think, 'the biz' means the pornographic movie industry, and if you say a girl is 'in the biz', then she's like working as a porno movie actress.
In England, a 'bird' in local slang means a 'girl'. If you say 'she's my bird', it means 'she's my girlfriend'. So, when I was chatting around in a Yahoo Chatroom once, n there was a chatter named 'BigBirdNol', I thought it was like a big sized girl (maybe named Nol, or Nolan or something similar), which sort of fitted in precisely with my taste in wimmen
.So, I sort of made a little friendly-naughty 'pass' at her. Well, I had to be the macho ladies' man then, didn't I?
Soon afterward, I somehow realised that 'bird' in local American slang actually means 'dikk'. Good Gosh! So the chatter was actually a guy, n his name actually meant 'BigDikkAndAll'! So, I sort of had to quickly scramble n make drastic adjustments to the tone of my chat talk, before he started thinkin that I was gay n that I fancied him! Holy mackerel ... Stone me!
Ok, I won't use the term 'Karkhaneh' then. Maybe 'Khazneh' would be a safer place to work in
 .BTW, that chapter of my story, where I'll be using the mixed Persian-Turkic expression 'Ziba Baji' (my own invention) as an affectionate kiddy phrase to mean 'Beautiful Sister', is set in 11th century Constantinople. So, perhaps, I won't need to worry so much about those slangish alternative meanings. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 19:59
Poor sod. Your Osman Efendi, I mean. He's not such a skilful party goer, I don't think. Going red in the face so easily? Naaahhhh. He should be more emotionally resilient, if he's to ever enjoy being at a party. He's too emotionally fragile to be a proper party guy.
 If I were him, I would have stayed as calm and steady as possible all the time, and kept a pleasant sense of humour always. Cool as ice, smooth as silk, charming as a prince. Way to go, man!
Just imagine it, if I was as easily ruffled as your Osman Efendi, n your Azeri friend was a beautiful young lady, n you introduced her to me.
Then I would have so easily lost her as a potential lady friend. What a shame! What a loss!
If it was me, I would have exploited n manipulated n shaped the conversation, whatever the tone of it initially, to get closer n closer to the girl. N closer n closer. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 02:12
The poor osman was schocked, because my Azari friend had told him with PRIDE that his mother was adminstrator of that buisness he coulden't understand how a guy could be so proud of such a mother and a sister working hard in the same karkhaneh.sorry my azari friend was a very viril guy no way to imagin him as a girl- friend unless in a night mare
there are many similar cases . here in Sweden a tös means a little sweet young girl , but in norway means a woman in biz and sweden and norway have been even same country not long ago separated from each other. it is amazing that same word can have such a different meaning!!!!
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 05:29
Never knew that the Gutians were German, I once read they were Iranians and always thought they were Iranian. The Mittani also lived where the kurds live and they are believed to have been Indo-Aryans. Their is still a Kurdish tribe by the Name of Mattin that exists today. ------------- |
Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 07:58
Did I say there is no Persian loan words in Azeri Turkish? Beautiful is equal: Gözəl not ziba. |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 09-May-2010 at 17:41
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What does 'Mittani' mean in Persian? Some guys say 'Mada' (Medea) could be related to 'Mittani'. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 09-May-2010 at 21:05
Would 'Mardunisa' sound like a reasonable name for a Persian lady? ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: Zazagiyan
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 12:01
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Hi guys, i am self a Northern Zaza from Dêrsim and have found this forum by Google. I have collected in the last years a lot of knowledge about Iranian langauges. My English is not very vell, so there can come mistakes in my postings. Some corrections and facts: 1. Parthian was not a persian dialect. It was a northerwest-iranian language (you can notice this on the louds) as Median, Kurdish, Zazaki, Balochi and Caspian while Middle Persian (Pahlavi) was classifical Southwestiranian as Old Persian and New Persian. Look to this cards of Prof. Dr. Jost Gippert: http://zazaki.de/deutsch/stammbaumiranischesprachen-geradlinig.htm - http://zazaki.de/deutsch/stammbaumiranischesprachen-geradlinig.htm http://zazaki.de/deutsch/stammbaumiranischesprachen-querbeziehung.htm - http://zazaki.de/deutsch/stammbaumiranischesprachen-querbeziehung.htm 2. Such a language as "Gorani" doesn't exist in fact. Gorani is only a synonym for a tribe. In the western linguistic they use "Gorani" for the "Hewrami" language. In Kurdistan only Kelhuri- and Leki-Speakers call their language "Gorani". The right names of this languages are "Southern Kurdish" and "Hewrami". Dialects of Southern Kurdish:
3. Esm in Persian comes from Arabic "ism", look to: http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=isim - http://www.nisanyansozluk.com/?k=isim The pure arian word for "name" in in Persian "nâm". Persian tends to convert i-louds into e (in Kurdish and Zazaki: ê). 4. It is true, that Kurdish observed many Southwest Iranian influences while Zazaki conserved more Northwestiranian louds. Example: "dil" in Kurdish is from Southwestiranian: Avesta: zerdeye, Parthian: zird, Middle Persian: dil, Old Persian: *drd Its a southwest-process to convert the Old Iranian "z"-louds into "d". So "dest" in all northwestern languages is Persian too, Avesta: zeste, Old Persian: deste. Other example for this z-d-seperation: Avesta: zân-, Old Persian: dân- "to know" Avesta zerenye, Old Persian derenye "gold" Avesta "ezêm", Old Persian "edem" "I [pronome]" And more.... There are also other Southwestiranian examples for Kurdish, as example the numbers "deh" and "sê" are loaned, the pure Northwestiranian words are in Zazaki: des and hîrê. Parthian: hrê, Middle Persian: sî, Avesta 0ri, Old Persian: chî Parthian: des, Middle Persian: deh, Avesta: dese, Old Persian: de0e Avesta represents in 99% of the cases the Proto-Iranian louds, as example was "dese" in Sanskrit with "s" too. 5. "bav, bavik" in Kurdish, "bab, baba" in Zazaki and "baba" in Persian share the same root: Pahlavi archaic form "pâpek" "kech" in Kurdish, "keyna" in Zazaki, "kenechal" in Hewrami come from: Avesta, Sanskrit: kenyâ, Pahlavi "kenîzek". Source: Paul Horn The similiraty with Turkish "kiz" is only accident. Such accidents can happen. Turkish "baba" is directly loaned from Persian. Do you have any questions about Zazaki? |
Posted By: Zazagiyan
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 13:25
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An arabic influence in Persian is as example: To put into the Null-Louds an "a" or "e", example: brâdar > barâdar stâre > setâre graftan > gereftan Roots: Avesta, Old Persian brâter Avesta: ster, Pahlavi: stârek Avesta, Old Persian: greb-, Pahlavi: greften PS: I write the Old and Middle iranian examples with the kurdish/zaza alphabet, which represents better the Proto-Indo-European developing to Arian. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2010 at 15:30
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"PS: I write the Old and Middle iranian examples with the kurdish/zaza alphabet, which represents better the Proto-Indo-European developing to Arian."
You meant of course to write "aryan" or "Iranian" did you not? Arian, in Europe, etc., means but a version of Christianity! Or, maybe you have other ideas? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Zazagiyan
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:01
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Yes, I mean "Aryan". I favor to write "Arian" without "y", because with that you can see better the root-words, "arî" + Plural ending "ân". Old Iranian: arî+ânâm The root word is arî, "y" came only because of the vowels and "î" became swallowed. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2010 at 14:40
Welcome Bira to the forum. I have key interest in Kurdish langauge and it's history. I have also noticed that Kurmanji leans towards Persian. Some people claim this similarties took place during the Parthian/Sassanids times and other say the similarties started long before that, when the two groups were in much closer contact, which shaped the similarties. Heres something I found that try to explain it but I am sure how reliable it is, quote from Professor Garnik Asatrian (Yerevan University) (2009)
Many Kurmanji words are prounoced similar to Persian, like Xwastin,Bahran,Buhara,dil..ect. I can pick up many words from a Persian speaker and some sentances here and their, but that depends on the speaker as some Persians I have very hard time understanding anything. Some one had mentioned on this forum that Kurdish was closer to Tajik dialect of Persian rather then Farsi, which I find odd as Tajiks live further away on the other side. Even in the circle of my family for example, they prounce I as Az like Persian, where as majority of Kurds say Ez. Also I have seen that diagram by Prof. Dr. Jost Gippert before, I find odd that he puts Kurmanji/Sorani as coming from Middle-Persian? ------------- |
Posted By: Aijn
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 00:20
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I am not a language expert, surely not an expert of Indo-Iranian languages, thou I wonder which one is the oldest or looks the oldest. By which one I mostly mean Avestan and Sanskrit. Also, which European languages look most similar to ancient Iranian? |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2010 at 02:19
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The oldest Iranian language is Gathic language, and I think Germanic Gothic language is the most similar European language to it. -------------
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Posted By: Zazagiyan
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 12:28
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No no Bira, the card of Jost Gippert confirms only your sight, that the connection between Persian and Kurdish is older as expected. Lets look to the card better: http://zazaki.de/deutsch/stammbaumiranischesprachen-geradlinig.htm From the above sight: The black line goes in Kurdish 1. first to Middle Persian 2. then it contacts with Old Persian 3. then with Southwest-Iranian and 4. then it contacts with the line of Northwestiranian. "Az" in Persian means "from" (is in relation with Kurdish ji), Persian did lost the Pronome for "ez" and use today "man" (Kurdish alphabet: men), which comes from the Obliquus form "my, mine". Like in Sorani, where they use "min" for "I". |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2010 at 16:50
Ok thanks for the info about the diagram. I always thought Az meant the same as Ez in both langauges as in I, maybe Cyrus_Shamiri can tell us? ------------- |
Posted By: Aijn
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 11:11
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Nice diagram dude. Is there something on the internet about these Gathic people and their language? I couldn't find much. if(_AF2$.TOP==1){document.write(" |
Posted By: Zazagiyan
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 14:37
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@Ince Persian did lost even in the Middle Persian phase the old iranian pronome for "I". Old Indoeuropean *egHom will be in Old Iranian *ezem, in Avesta ezêm, in Old Persian it will be because of the typical z > d change "edem". But in Middle Persian there was using "ân" for "I" and todays Persian use only "men" for it, which has the meaning of "me". The same process has made Central Kurdish (Sorani) and Southern Kurdish, they also don't know "ez" for "I", they use "min". Persian "ez" (in their alphabet: az) means "from", it shares the same root as Kurdish "ji", which was in Parthian "ej", in Avesta "hechâ". |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2010 at 18:20
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May,I just ask a question?
Why did all of the above letters change both their character, or their meanining? It all seems rather contrived?, at least to me! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2010 at 15:34
Thanks for the info heval. You seem to have a good understanding of the Iranian Languages. Do you by any chance know anything about Kurdish having some Hurrian langauge elements in it? I've read this claim by Kurds and would like to know what part of Kurdish has Hurrian elements. It looks as if Kurdish ia mainly all Iranic with some outside influence by Arabic mainly due to Islam and Armenian but that is little. Also has Kurmanji in anway influenced Zaza or Zaza on Kurmanji? they have been living close to eachother for a long time. My great grand father on my mother side was Zaza, who I never met as I am 17. But no one on my mother side can speak any Zaza only Kurmanji. ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 14-Jun-2010 at 06:39
About Persian language, you should certainly consider Germanic sound changes too, for example as I said in another thread we know proto-IE "g" is changed to "k" in Germanic but "s/z" in Iranian, so English cold from proto IE *gol, is changed to Iranian sard, but what is the Persian word for English cool? Persian kool also means "cold/cool", you probably know the meaning of Persian words: koolak, kooran, ...
Or from the proto-IE *gala (head), there is the Iranian word sar but in Persian kalla also means "head" and kula means "hat":
Proto-Germanic: *kulla-z, *kull=
Meaning: head, head-like object
IE etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=+286&root=config">
  Old Norse: koll-r m. `runder Gipfel; Kopf, Schädel'
Old English: { coll `heuvel, hoogte' }
Middle Dutch: col, colle; (Kiliaen) kolle-bloeme `anemoon'
Dutch: kol m. `wite vlek op het voorhoofd', dial. `voorhofd'
Middle Low German: kol, kolle `Kopf, oberster Teil von Pflanzen'
About proto-IE *egho that you mentioned, we know in Germanic it has been changed to ekha or ikha (Old High German ih and Modern German ich), Persian ekho or kho has the same origin too, in Modern Persian there are khoish (خویش) "self", khod (خود) "ego", ... -------------
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Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:14
Most likely from some 1400 years ago, simultaneously by introduction of Islam. From a conventional linguistic viewpoint Persian language, from that point on, is referred to as "New Persian".
Stranger impacts are somehow restricted to Arabic as well as Turkic/Mongolian influences, of which the first one's strenght is considerable.
For sure it did. As far as I know no Iranian language has scaped Turkic defilement in terms of linguistics.
Iranian languages in those periods were certainly much closer compared to nowadays, but in fact there were also differences at the time. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:24
It is not exactly so. We are better to say "the majority of loanwords in Persian have an Iranian synonym in modern Persian." For exmple as a matter of fact the only counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" ~ "special" in New Persian is "vizheh", which is exactly a loan borrowed from a Northeastern Iranian language and, if I am not mistaken, is a akin to another New Persian word "gozideh", this time a pure Persian word in senses of "selected" or "elite". ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:29
A significant number of non-Arabic words within Ferdowsi's Shahnameh are particularly of Northeastern Iranian origin, mostly Sogdian (e.g. vizheh, aghaz, etc.). Nonetheless they would be still more sensible choices rather than Arabic loans, since they are of Iranian origin anyways. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:34
There are two forms of Persian in effect. Official Persian and Colloquial Persian. The later one is used by Persian speakers in their daily life and is teemed with Arabic loans, one of them "esm" < "ism" ~ "name". ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 08:44
Gorani Kurdish holds a very vague background up to now. It is referred to a body of dialects such as Hewrami, Kakei, Bajelan, as well as classical poetry so-called "Gorani" (which "Gorani Kurdish" is named after it). From a linguistic viewpoint it, Gorani Kurdish, is a language. Along with Kirmanji Kurdish (comprised of Kurmanji-Northern, Sorani-Central, and Kirmajhi-Southern dialects). Most likely it is due to a later Parthian impact on Kurdish, which has ushered into appearance of Zaza and Gorani languages, two Northwestern Iranian languages which are spoken by 10% of Kurds. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 09:01
well the present day "Gorani" tribe around Kirmanshan, speak a variety of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish and not Gorani Kurdish, in effect. This is why you might find it close to Kelhuri, which is the major subdialect of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish. By the way Southern Kurdish dialects are by no means derived from any specific origin unless Kurdish. Despite the Persian influence which is discernable in any Kurdish dialects, Southern Kirmanji Kurdish is basically different comapred to Zoroastrian Persian (or Middle Persian), the language of Sassanid dynasty. Since Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian language and Persian is a Southwestern one:
Old Iranian : Southern Kurdish : Middle Persian : New Persian : Meaning
reoce : rujh : roz : ruz : day
hverite : hwardin (also "xwardin") : xwerden : xorden : to eat
hvesure : hosure : xosur : pederzen : father in law
siveke : sipolle (mainly use a Persian loan "se") : seg : seg : dog
dzen : zanisin : danesten : danesten (conversationally "dunesten") : to know
dzemeter : zama : damat : damad (dumad) : bridegroom
vedue* : wewi : beyug : erus : bride
(I romanized Old Iranian, Middle Persian, and New Persian definition in Kurdish Latin Alphabet)
Kirmanji Kurdish dialects have diverged throughout history because Kurds ironically lack a standard language so far, therefore Kirmanji Kurdish (Northern, Central, and Southern dialects) speakers would hardly comprehend each other in the first bump into each other. Nonetheless they could easily arrange to deal with it on their own initiative since their vernaculars (the three main dialects)are linguistically dialects of a unique language.
------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 09:15
It, the current belief about Kirmanji Kurdish being originated in southern Iran, is based on a linguistic theory issued by McKeznie, and is refutable since McKenzie himself comes with the confession that his knowledge is almost nothing about Southern Kirmanji dialect. A dialect whose lexicon explicitly refutes the linguistic conculsions inferred by McKenzie in his article on origins of Kurdish.
Besides the aforsaid linguistic insufficiency, there is also no historical materials to back up such a theory. Lurs already live next to Kurds, and the greatest tribe of them namely Bakhtiary used to consider themselves as ethnic "Kurds", since their largest city "Shahr-e Kord" witnesses. There had been confederations of Kurdish and Luri (southwestern speakers) tribes during the last 20 centuries, which could have caused a stronger Southwestern Iranian imapct on Kirmanji Kurdish, besides Persian influence.
------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 09:31
Leki is exactly a subdialect of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish. The only major difference between Leki and other Southern Kurdish varieties is the durative maker "me-" (mekem, mecim, mewshim, etc.) which is a Middle Persian loan via Gorani Kurdish. While the other Kurdish subdialects got "di-", "de-", or "e-". But a simple glance at the verb stems confirms the Kurdishness of Leki:
Leki : Southern Kurdish : Gorani (Hewrami) : Persian : Meaning
mecim : ecim : melu : mirevem : I go
mewshim : ewshim : macu : miguyem : I say
mewnim : ewnim : moynu : mibinem : I see
mekem : ekem : mekeru : mikonem : I do
bico : bicu : bilu : boro : go (imperative)
bush : bush : wace : begu : say!
bike : bike : kere : bokon : do!
(Southern Kurdish examples from Koliyayi; Persian examples are romanized in Kurdish Latin alphabet)
Even a comarison between Leki and a remote and diverged Kurdish subdialect such as one those of Northern Kurdish (Kurmanji) subdialects could tell on its, Leki', Kurdishness:
Leki : Kurmanji : Meaning
mecim : dicim : I go
mewshim : dibejhim : I say
mewnim : dibinim : I see
mekem : dikem : I do
bico : bice : go (imperative)
bush : bejhe : say!
bike : bike : do!
People are free to call themselves at their will, nonetheless the reality stays unchanged.
------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 09:38
Persian "gozidan" and "vijdan" have probably the same origin, the second one can be also explained by the Germanic sound changes, it can be compared with Dutch wijden: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijden - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijden
wijden ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Dutch_parts_of_speech#Verbs - weak in -d)
Or Swedish viga: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/devote - devote something for a specific purpose
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Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 09:55
I have to disagree. Gorani (Hewrami) speakers absolutely sound the same as Sorani and Southern Kurdish speakers, while Zaza speakers often remind me, as a native Sorani speaker, of Northern Kurdish speakers, namely Kurmanji speakers.
I am sorry but no one could take such theories for granted on account of one's personal perceptions.
It is probably has something to do with a Hurrian background. Hurrians spoke an ergative language as well as they are believed to be originated from Caucasia. Goergians also refer to themselves as "Kartveli" which could resemble "Kartox" (older form of "Kurd") at the first sight. But as a matter of fact the etymology of "Kurd" is still obscure.
It is not reasonable. In the oldest Middle Persian document in reach, namely "Karnamag-i Ardashir Babegan" the term "Kurd" is directly and obviously indicated as a group of people. Also Ferdowsi, the Iranian poet who is well-known for recovering Sassanid facts in his post-Islamic works, explicitly distinguishes Kurds as a unique ethnicity, and not "Nomadic peoples in general".
To me it was the pre-Iranian people, namely Hurrians, who got Aryanified by Medes as well as Cimmerian Scythians (as you can find a very strong Scythian impact on todays Kirmanji Kurdish langauge). Possibly since the first non-Persian people against which Arabs had to bump, were Kurds thus they gradually referred to all non-Persian peoples of Iran as "Kurds" for a while. For example they also have referred to ancient Daylamites as "Kurds of Gilan" whilst they were by no means a nomadic people. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 10:13
I have not heard of "vizhidan" (if you mean so by "vijdan") as a verb approved by Persian Academy of Language. Nevertheless I am pretty sure about "vizheh" in sense of "special" and as an official counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" which is still widely used in conversational Persian. "Gozideh" as I have already affirmed is of Persian origin (from Middle Persian "wizidan") but "vizheh" can by no means be speculated Persian since Old Iranian "k" > "c" is reflected as "z" in New Persian as well as Middle Persian (e.g. rauca > roz / ruz ~ day; haca > az ~ from; kaina-ca > kaniz ~ maiden), and the ancient "v" turns into either "b" or "g" in New Persian (e.g. vata > bad; waran > baran; vafra > barf; varaza > goraz; vinas > gonah; vitara > gozar; vahrka > gorg). "Vizheh" represents non-Persian characteristics by "v" as well as "zh"; whilst "gozideh" is a pure Persian word. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 10:28
It is originally "gurd" and recorded in Parthian texts for first time in meaning of "braveheart" or "hero". So that it antedates Sassanians. Since there is no specific Iranian etymology for "gurd" thus we could give it a whirl that it might be coined after the name of a people, Kurds, with a little sound change. Also many original "k" sounds are pronounced as "g" in Parthian. Another example in this sense could be Georgian "gimer" ~ "hero" which is after Cimmerians.
By the way Sassanians were, as Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan asseverates, a Persian tribe who lived amongst Kurds during the so-called bestial reign of Alexander's successors. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 10:51
Such forenames are also shared with Persians, Lurs, Gilakis, etc. these are typical Iranian names. They cannot imply any specific linguistic connection, since Southern Kurdish speakers from Iraq (Khanaqin, Kut, Mandali) as well those immigrants that live in a linguistic enclave in Anatolia, Turkey (Hayman Shex Bizini Kurdish) do not share those aformentioned names in the same degree as Iranian Kurds do. ------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:03
Kurmanji (Northern Kirmanji Kurdish) could be speculated closer to Persian only in terms of changing ancient "v" into either "b" or "g", whilst its grammar is specifically purer than those of Southern and Central Kirmanji Kurdish dialects.
By the way I think your given examples need to be emended:
Persian: xanden be zabane Kordi (~ reading in Kurdish language)
Northern Kirmanji: xwendin bi zimane / ezmane Kurdi
Southern Kirmanji: xwenin we ziwane Kurdi
Both Southern and Northern Kurdish "xwen-" are better preserved compared to Persian "xan-" when we consider the Old Iranian root "hven-".
Also Southern Kurdish "we" is a distorted from of "be" which itself is derived from "pe". In some Kurmanji dialects still they use "pi" instead of "bi". Also in the bulk of Kirmanji Kurdish dialects when it joins "-i" becomes "pe" like Sorani "be min bejhe" ~ "tell to me", "wutim pet" ~ "I told you".
Southern Kurdish as well as some Central (like Senendeji) and even Northern Kurdish (like Serhedi) word for "language", "zuwan", is a Middle Persian loan "zuwan" > New Persian "zeban". While most Northern Kurdish as well as Central Kurdish subdialects represent "ziman" or "ezman" which exquisitly tells on an earlier form of "ezban" and reflects a specific Mede sound-group "-zb-" (hezbe ~ language) as opposed to Avestan "-zw-" (hezwe ~ language).
------------- Blessed are the meek |
Posted By: Quaere Verum
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:12
In Northern Kirmanji Kurdish or "Kurmanji" it is "herin" and "cun" for "to go". Both have nothing to do with Persian "reften". This Persian verb is found in Central Kirmanji Kurdish so-called "Sorani" "riwin" ~ "to go" which is used along with "cun". Kurmanji "herin" has the same root as Sogdian "xer-" ~ "to go", but the most interesting point is about "cun" (Southern Kurdish "cin") which retains Old Iranian "c-" in "ciyev" ~ "to go". In all Middle as well as Modern Iranian language this verb has changed into "shew" ( c > sh), except for ancient Scythian languages, Ossetian (modern Scythian), and Kurdish which preserve original "c". Its Persian cognate is "shoden".
Northern Kurmanji "rewend" which means "migration" is akin to Persian verb "reften". ------------- Blessed are the meek |