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    Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:17
Originally posted by Ince

Does anyone know if the Kurdish words for father "Bova" and the word for Daughter "Keca" is iranian in origin? or is it from another langauge?
 
"Bova", "bav", "baw", "bab", "bawik", "bawig", etc. are derived from a common cosmopolitan root which is either "babe" or "pape" as a Proto Iranian form.
 
Kurmanji as well as Sorani "kec" are derived from Old Iranian "keyne" ~ "girl" which probably joins "-cit" with a dropped "-n-". In Sine Kurdish it is "kenishk" < "keine-cit-eke". Also Mazandarani "kija" ~ "girl" also is akin to "kec". Both "kec" as well as "kenishk" are pure Kurdish words.
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:29
Originally posted by Miller

Bova sounds like papa or baba the slang for father in many langugages I don't think that the actual word for father in Kurdish
 
 
Yes the original Kurdish word for father is "tate". There is also "piyak" which mainly means "man", "uncle", "father", but I am suspicious of it being derived from Old Persian "pita-ke".
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:33
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Miller is right about the Kurdish word for "father", that is similar to Luri "Boa" and Arabic "Baba" but the word for daughter, as I mentioned in this thread: Kurds are German?:

In Greek gyne means "woman" but in Kurdish that is jin/zjin, in Persian zan and Slavic zena but in Germanic that is kwen/ken (English queen), so like several other words, "g" has been changed to "k" in the Germanic languages, but does "ken" mean "woman" in the Iranian languages too?

The original Hewrami/Gorani word for "daughter" is "Kenacha" ("Ken"=woman + diminutive suffix "cha"), that is similar to Sistani Kenja (Young girl, daughter), Tati/Talysh Kina (little gril, daughter), Gilaki/Mazandarani Kija (daughter), Bojnurdi Khorasani Kechek, Sorani Kizj, ...

 
Brother, the mentioned Iranian words in sense of "girl" or "daughter", are derived from Old Iranian "kayna" which is not related to Germanic "kwen", Greek "gyne", or Kurdish "jhin", Russian "jhena", and Persian "zan".
 
Nonetheless I may maintain your idea of a specific connection between Kurds and Germans since the term "German" might resemble native Scythian name for "Cimmerians" which is "Kerm" and could be traced in modern Kurdish national names such as "Kurmanj", "Kirmanj" (contrary to the conventional theory that considers Kurmanj to be Kurd-manj; since original "kir-" changes into "kur-" in Northern Kurdish "kirm" > "kurm" ~ "worm"; this is why Zaza speakers and Sorani speaking Kurds refer to themselves as "Kirmanj" or pronounce the term in that way and not "Kurmanj" as opposed to Northern Kurdish speaking Kurds).


Edited by Quaere Verum - 15-Jun-2010 at 11:37
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think Kurdish Dayi is certainly the same as Persian Daie but it never means "mother" but "a female servant who feeds milk to a baby instead of mother", am I right?
 
 
dairy Look up dairy at Dictionary.com
late 13c., from Anglo-Fr. -erie suffix affixed to M.E. daie (in daie maid "dairymaid"), from O.E. dæge "kneader of bread, housekeeper, female servant" (see dey (1)). The native word was dey-house.
 
 
dey (1) Look up dey at Dictionary.com
O.E. dæge "female servant, housekeeper, maid," from P.Gmc. *daigjon
 
You are right, Kurdish "dayk", "dayan", "diya", "de", "daye", "dallig", etc. share the same root as Persian "daye".
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:44
Originally posted by Ince


It could be Dayik is similar to Persian one and some Kurds claim the words comes from the Hurrians, but I cannot find a online langauge list for Hurrian, I am not sure about it. 

Also many Kurds have different or multiple words for many things.  In the Kurmanji langauge depends on the location of the speaker, for example nearly all Ser means head but also in some, my family also use "Kura" for head and it also means son Kur.  I have even heard my family members refer to mom as Alek as well.  Also Dot means daughter of a uncle/aunt in my familys Kurmanji.
 
Kurdish "dayik" is for sure a cognate of Persian "daye" however they both got different meanings. Hurrian influence on Kurdish is much more noticeable in case of Kurdish being an ergative language.
 
"Kure" and "alek" are really interesting words, I had not heard of them before, may I know where are you exactly from brother?
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 11:49
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The Germanic word for head is "Kulla" (g->k), the Persian word is "Sar" (g->s & l->r) but "Kalle" is also used (Kula means hat), that is really interesting that the Kurdish word is "Kura" (just l->r), that is similar to Persian "Kura" which means "colt" (just l->r) and of course "child" (Germanic Kult), like Kurdish "Kur".

 
If I am not mistaken Persian "kolah" has the same Indo-European root as "color". And yes Kurdish "kur" has the same root as Persian "korre" ~ "colt".
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Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

"Tou" is certainly used more than "Shoma", in fact "Shoma" is plural but also formal singular. You probably know that "Shoma" comes from Avestan "Yushma".
There is a state (more like a region or province, but with its own hereditary sultan, we being a confederal monarchy) called Perak, in Malaysia, just to the south of another state named Kedah. The people there use 'koma', in their own local colloquial dialect, for the plural  'you'. I wonder if that had any link with the Persian 'shoma'.
 
Or maybe that 'koma' could have been a local adaptation of the Arabic 'kum' ('you').
 
Persian "shoma" follows Middle Persian "shuma" which itself is derived from Parthian "ashmah", the last word a cognate of Avestan "yushmahka" akin to English "you", if I am not mistaken.


Edited by Quaere Verum - 15-Jun-2010 at 11:52
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:06
Originally posted by Zazagiyan

2. Such a language as "Gorani" doesn't exist in fact. Gorani is only a synonym for a tribe. In the western linguistic they use "Gorani" for the "Hewrami" language. In Kurdistan only Kelhuri- and Leki-Speakers call their language "Gorani".

 
Nope brother, it does exist. The rich body of Kurdish folklor peoties over Southern Kurdish areas are written in this language. A variety of Gorani language is still spoken in Hewraman region. Other related dialects include Kakei, Bajelan,  as well as Siwendi.
 

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

4. It is true, that Kurdish observed many Southwest Iranian influences while Zazaki conserved more Northwestiranian louds. Example:
 
"dil" in Kurdish is from Southwestiranian:

Avesta: zerdeye, Parthian: zird, Middle Persian: dil, Old Persian: *drd

Its a southwest-process to convert the Old Iranian "z"-louds into "d".

 
For this instance the original Kurdish word is still preserved "zirk"/"zirg"/"zik"/"zig". However in most dialects it has adopted a new meaning "belly". As the Persian "del" also means both "heart" and "belly".
 

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

There are also other Southwestiranian examples for Kurdish, as example the numbers "deh" and "sê" are loaned, the pure Northwestiranian words are in Zazaki: des and hîrê.

Parthian: hrê, Middle Persian: sî, Avesta 0ri, Old Persian: chî

Parthian: des, Middle Persian: deh, Avesta: dese, Old Persian: de0e

 
Yes Kirmanji Kurdish cardinal numbers are heavily influenced by Middle Persian.
 

Originally posted by Zazagiyan

Turkish "baba" is directly loaned from Persian.
 
I disagree. It could be derived from Arabic "baba". Nevertheless "baba"/"papa" and "mama" are believed to have a world wide distribution, where even a Southern African language such as Zulu has "ubaba" for "father". 


Edited by Quaere Verum - 15-Jun-2010 at 12:57
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:07
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

I have not heard of "vizhidan" (if you mean so by "vijdan") as a verb approved by Persian Academy of Language. Nevertheless I am pretty sure about "vizheh" in sense of "special" and as an official counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" which is still widely used in conversational Persian. "Gozideh" as I have already affirmed is of Persian origin (from Middle Persian "wizidan") but "vizheh" can by no means be speculated Persian since Old Iranian "k" > "c" is reflected as "z" in New Persian as well as Middle Persian (e.g. rauca > roz / ruz ~ day; haca > az ~ from; kaina-ca > kaniz ~ maiden), and the ancient "v" turns into either "b" or "g" in New Persian (e.g. vata > bad; waran > baran; vafra > barf; varaza > goraz; vinas > gonah; vitara > gozar; vahrka > gorg). "Vizheh" represents non-Persian characteristics by "v" as well as "zh"; whilst "gozideh" is a pure Persian word. 
 
There are different sound changes, it is certainly true that "zh/ch" sounds have been mostly changed to "z" in modern Persian, probably because the absence of these sounds in Arabic, modern Persian word "gozidan" comes from Middle Persian vichitan, the proto-IE origin is *weik- which means "to choose, to sacrify", but "k" sound could be also changed to "j" sound, so Persian vijin (to weed out) and vija (unmixed, special) could be from the same proto-IE origin.
 
Another word that you mentioned is kaniz, we know proto-IE *gen/*gna (woman, wife) has been changed to zhan in the Middle Persian and then zan in modern Persian, but proto-IE "g" is changed to "k" in Germanic, so Persian kana, like Swedish kona (woman) and Egnlish queen, has also the same origin, therefore "kana"+diminutive suffix "cha" is changed to "kaniz" in modern Persian, not "zaniz".


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Jun-2010 at 12:08
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:16
Originally posted by Ince


Many Kurmanji words are prounoced similar to Persian, like Xwastin,Bahran,Buhara,dil..ect. 

Even in the circle of my family for example, they prounce I as Az like Persian, where as majority of Kurds say Ez.
 
Brother, Kirmanji Kurdish (including all three dialects) is basically different from Persian at all. Words such as "xwestin" with a present stem of "xwez-" as opposed to Persian "xasten" with "xah-" attest the idea. Also I am afraid but the last time that any Persian speaking person used a word akin to Latin "ego" for "I" was about Achaemenid period when Persians used to pronounce it as "edem"! Middle Persian definitely lacks this word. Kurmanji Kurdish "ez", "es", or "az" shows the Northwestern character of Kurdish language:
 
Proto Iranian: dz
 
Northwestern: z
 
Southwestern: d
 
 
Originally posted by Ince


Also I have seen that diagram by Prof. Dr. Jost Gippert before, I find odd that he puts Kurmanji/Sorani as coming from Middle-Persian?
 
It is absolutely an absurd idea to speculate Kurdish to be derived from Middle Persian. 
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
There are different sound changes, it is certainly true that "zh/ch" sounds have been mostly changed to "z" in modern Persian, probably because the absence of these sounds in Arabic, modern Persian word "gozidan" comes from Middle Persian vichitan, the proto-IE origin is *weik- which means "to choose, to sacrify", but "k" sound could be also changed to "j" sound, so Persian vijin (to weed out) and vija (unmixed, special) could be from the same proto-IE origin.
 
Firstly I have to let you know that "vicitan" is an incorrect orthography, as McKenzie in his last Middle Persian dictionary affirms it must be pronounced and spelled "wizidan", despite the Aramaic spelling. Just recall "Hezarvash" words which were written in Aramaic language but read as their Iranian counterparts. By the way no need to think of a direct Indo-European origin which would already refute current linguistic rules for Persian, while there are examples such as Kurdish "wijhin" from the same root as Persian "goziden". "Vizhe" is indisputably a Northern Iranian loan, most likely a Northeastern one.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Another word that you mentioned is kaniz, we know proto-IE *gen/*gna (woman, wife) has been changed to zhan in the Middle Persian and then zan in modern Persian, but proto-IE "g" is changed to "k" in Germanic, so Persian kana, like Swedish kona (woman) and Egnlish queen, has also the same origin, therefore "kana"+diminutive suffix "cha" is changed to "kaniz" in modern Persian, not "zaniz".
 
It is exactly "zan" in the Middle Persian. "Zhan" is Parthian. I do not think so about Persian "kaniz" since it obviously matches Avestan "kaina" as Kurdish "kenishk", "kec", Mazandarani "kija", etc. do. Meantime we find the same root as Germanic "kwen" for "woman" in Avesta as "jan".


Edited by Quaere Verum - 15-Jun-2010 at 12:26
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 12:29
Originally posted by Aijn

I am not a language expert, surely not an expert of Indo-Iranian languages, thou I wonder which one is the oldest or looks the oldest. By which one I mostly mean Avestan and Sanskrit. Also, which European languages look most similar to ancient Iranian? 

 
To my ken, Slavic languages share the most similarties with Iranian languages.
 
A few examples:
 
Kurdish "jhin" (pronounced "zhen"), Russian "zhenika" ~ "woman", but English "queen" from the same root.
 
Kurdish "zan", Russian "zena" ~ "know", but German "kennen" as a cognate of them both.
 
Persian "seg", Polish "suka" ~ "dog", but German "hund" in the same sense as well as from the same Indo-European root.


Edited by Quaere Verum - 15-Jun-2010 at 12:40
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Posts: 550 		  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 16:34
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince


It could be Dayik is similar to Persian one and some Kurds claim the words comes from the Hurrians, but I cannot find a online langauge list for Hurrian, I am not sure about it. 

Also many Kurds have different or multiple words for many things.  In the Kurmanji langauge depends on the location of the speaker, for example nearly all Ser means head but also in some, my family also use "Kura" for head and it also means son Kur.  I have even heard my family members refer to mom as Alek as well.  Also Dot means daughter of a uncle/aunt in my familys Kurmanji.
 
Kurdish "dayik" is for sure a cognate of Persian "daye" however they both got different meanings. Hurrian influence on Kurdish is much more noticeable in case of Kurdish being an ergative language.
 
"Kure" and "alek" are really interesting words, I had not heard of them before, may I know where are you exactly from brother?


Thanks for all your replys, interesting posts.

I was born in Malatya.  My parents do use Kur,Kure for head at times.  For example my dad used it in this way "Kure bosha" "Head empty".  For Alek, I have heard my mum reffer to my grandmother as Alek and hardly ever used Daye. 
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Posts: 550 		  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2010 at 16:45
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince


Many Kurmanji words are prounoced similar to Persian, like Xwastin,Bahran,Buhara,dil..ect. 

Even in the circle of my family for example, they prounce I as Az like Persian, where as majority of Kurds say Ez.
 
Brother, Kirmanji Kurdish (including all three dialects) is basically different from Persian at all. Words such as "xwestin" with a present stem of "xwez-" as opposed to Persian "xasten" with "xah-" attest the idea. Also I am afraid but the last time that any Persian speaking person used a word akin to Latin "ego" for "I" was about Achaemenid period when Persians used to pronounce it as "edem"! Middle Persian definitely lacks this word. Kurmanji Kurdish "ez", "es", or "az" shows the Northwestern character of Kurdish language:
 
Proto Iranian: dz
 
Northwestern: z
 
Southwestern: d
 
 
Originally posted by Ince


Also I have seen that diagram by Prof. Dr. Jost Gippert before, I find odd that he puts Kurmanji/Sorani as coming from Middle-Persian?
 
It is absolutely an absurd idea to speculate Kurdish to be derived from Middle Persian. 


On the diagram, it shows that Kurdish leaning towards/Shaping with Persian since the ancient times and separated after Middle-Persian.   Maybe be I am understanding the diagram wrong.

On the similar words between Kurdish and Persian.  Like I said on a previous post, my kurdish is not very good but ok.  At times I can pick up many words at times more then I can gorani. 

I try and watch some Persian clips on Youtube to see how much I can pick up.  For example in this video I find it easier to understand many words, but some Persian speakers are more harder to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgfs-ssDhM&feature=related
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Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince

In farsi go/gone means raftan.  In Kurmanji it's haran/cun but raftan also has similar meaning.  I asked my mother what Raftan means, she said it means someone whos gone quickly I am not sure if all Kurmanji speaks have the same. 
 
In Northern Kirmanji Kurdish or "Kurmanji" it is "herin" and "cun" for "to go". Both have nothing to do with Persian "reften". This Persian verb is found in Central Kirmanji Kurdish so-called "Sorani" "riwin" ~ "to go" which is used along with "cun". Kurmanji "herin" has the same root as Sogdian "xer-" ~ "to go", but the most interesting point is about "cun" (Southern Kurdish "cin") which retains Old Iranian "c-" in "ciyev" ~ "to go". In all Middle as well as Modern Iranian language this verb has changed into "shew" ( c > sh), except for ancient Scythian languages, Ossetian (modern Scythian), and Kurdish which preserve original "c". Its Persian cognate is "shoden".
 
Northern Kurmanji "rewend" which means "migration" is akin to Persian verb "reften".


In Kurmanji Runaway "Revan/Revin" which might be similar to Persian Reften/Reftun.

That was the word that I found similar to Persians.


Edited by Ince - 16-Jun-2010 at 03:35
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Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince

This because of the way Gorani/Zazaki pronounce words, Kurmanji and Sorani pronounce many words more similar to Persian.
 
I have to disagree. Gorani (Hewrami) speakers absolutely sound the same as Sorani and Southern Kurdish speakers, while Zaza speakers often remind me, as a native Sorani speaker, of Northern Kurdish speakers, namely Kurmanji speakers.

Originally posted by Ince

So this theory that Kurmanji originated more further south might have merit to it.It might also rule out the Corduene as the ancestors of the Kurds. As not much information is known about them or wether they even spoke a Iranian language.  Plus Corduene/Gorduene was most part of it's history was not under Persian control.
 
I am sorry but no one could take such theories for granted on account of one's personal perceptions. 
 

Originally posted by Ince

What about the name Kurd? where did it originated.
 
It is probably has something to do with a Hurrian background. Hurrians spoke an ergative language as well as they are believed to be originated from Caucasia. Goergians also refer to themselves as "Kartveli" which could resemble "Kartox" (older form of "Kurd") at the first sight. But as a matter of fact the etymology of "Kurd" is still obscure.
 
Originally posted by Ince

Some people claim the Modern term, poped up after the fall of the Sassanids. During the Sassanids, the term Kurd was used to describe Nomads,
 
It is not reasonable. In the oldest Middle Persian document in reach, namely "Karnamag-i Ardashir Babegan" the term "Kurd" is directly and obviously indicated as a group of people. Also Ferdowsi, the Iranian poet who is well-known for recovering Sassanid facts in his post-Islamic works, explicitly distinguishes Kurds as a unique ethnicity, and not "Nomadic peoples in general".  
 
Originally posted by Ince

so how did all the current Kurdish tribes be known as Kurds?  Could the Medes that lived in the regions that Kurds live today have been Kurdified? maybe the name changed gradually.  As it is also written that Arabs used to refer to the regions where Kurds lived as Kurds as well.  It could of been a social label that grew to describe everyone in the region.
 
To me it was the pre-Iranian people, namely Hurrians, who got Aryanified by Medes as well as Cimmerian Scythians (as you can find a very strong Scythian impact on todays Kirmanji Kurdish langauge). Possibly since the first non-Persian people against which Arabs had to bump, were Kurds thus they gradually referred to all non-Persian peoples of Iran as "Kurds" for a while. For example they also have referred to ancient Daylamites as "Kurds of Gilan" whilst they were by no means a nomadic people.


Similar to what happend with Jamaica.  The name Jamaica was given by the native indians and the current people who live in Jamaica only have a small fraction of native indian ancestory and no culturel and linguistic ties to the native indians i think?. 

The Medes were not the first Aryan that came to where Kurds live, their was also the Mittani.  Their are even Kurdish tribes that are called "Mattini/Milani/Milli" and tribe by the name of "Sindi" as the Mittani are believed to have been Sindis from India.

Also, I have read people dissmising the claim that the Kurds that lived in the Fars and with the Sassanids were not related to todays Kurds maybe to distance any connection between Kurds and Sassanids?.  For example here http://www.kavehfarrokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/origins-of-kurds-in-preislamic-iran.pdf 

That was where I read that word Kurd in pre-islamic iran was reffered to as Nomads and Sheppards.


Edited by Ince - 16-Jun-2010 at 04:59
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Originally posted by Ince



Thanks for all your replys, interesting posts.

I was born in Malatya.  My parents do use Kur,Kure for head at times.  For example my dad used it in this way "Kure bosha" "Head empty".  For Alek, I have heard my mum reffer to my grandmother as Alek and hardly ever used Daye. 
 
My pleasure bro. I see, Eastern Kurmanji subdialects such as that of Meleti seem pretty interesting in terms of vocabulary. I have already committed both "kure" and "alek" to my memory in order to hunt up their etymologies.  
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Originally posted by Ince



On the diagram, it shows that Kurdish leaning towards/Shaping with Persian since the ancient times and separated after Middle-Persian.   Maybe be I am understanding the diagram wrong.
 
Kurdish and Persian are both Iranian languages, it means that they both are diverged from a unique point once upon a time. That unique point is referred to as "Proto Iranian language" or simply "Old Iranian language". The first divergence occurs when Old Iranian language splits into either "Northern" and "Southern" languages. Then we got another divergence in terms of being "Eastern" and "Western", and thus there appear "Northwestern", "Northeastern", "Southwestern", and "Southeastern" Iranian languages. The current "Kirmanji Kurdish" language is a blend, and not a mixture, of Mede (as a Northwestern) and Scythian (as a Northeastern) languages. But there are a considerable number of Persian loans within Kirmanji Kurdish lexicon, but they cannot explain any linguistc inclinations or rules for Kurdish since they are merely borrowed words.
 
In the previous example, Proto Indo European "g" turns into "dz" in Old Iranian language. Then Northwestern Iranian languages change it to "z", while Southwesterns turn it into "d":
 
Latin: ego (I)
 
Old Iranian: edze
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): ez
 
Old Persian (Southwestern): edem
 
 
Latin: gnoscere (know)
 
Old Iranian: dzen
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): zan
 
Talyshi (Northwestern): zen
 
Persian (Southwestern): dan
 
Luri (Southwestern): dun
 
Kurdish, as a Northwestern Iranian language, doesnt lean toward Persian (Southwestern) at all. Let me elucidate it by other examples:
 
Old Iranian "zu" becomes in Northwestern languages (Median) as "zb", but Northeastern languages (Avestan) represent it as "zw" whilst Southwestern ones (Persian) should hold it as "z":
 
Old Iranian: hezue (language)
 
Avestan (Northeastern): hezwe
 
Mede (Northwestern): hezbe
 
Old Persian (Southwestern): hezene
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): ezman < hezban
 
Persian (Southwestern): zeban < zuwan (a loan from Parthian "uzwan")
 
Old Iranian "k" later changes into "c". In Kurdish it is preserved as "sh" which often turns into "jh" but in Persian it is preserved as "z":
 
Old Iranian: reike (pour)
 
Kurdish: rish, rijh
 
Persian: riz
 
 
Old Iranian: veke (say)
 
Kurdish: wish, bejh ("bejh" and "wejh" are possibly loans from Parthian "wajh")
 
Persian: avaz (in sense of "song")
 
 
Old Iranian: peke (cook)
 
Kurdish: pish, pejh
 
Persian: pez
 
 
Originally posted by Ince


On the similar words between Kurdish and Persian.  Like I said on a previous post, my kurdish is not very good but ok.  At times I can pick up many words at times more then I can gorani. 

I try and watch some Persian clips on Youtube to see how much I can pick up.  For example in this video I find it easier to understand many words, but some Persian speakers are more harder to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgfs-ssDhM&feature=related
 
Well the whole idea above is up to your listening skills, thus cannot be regarded as a fact. I bet you would understand nothing if you ever heard a Yazdi Persian speaker's words. Listening is not that much reliable text is. Wink
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Posts: 126 		  Quote Quaere Verum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 07:32
Originally posted by Ince



In Kurmanji Runaway "Revan/Revin" which might be similar to Persian Reften/Reftun.

That was the word that I found similar to Persians.
 
No bro. "Revin" is originally "remin" ( m > v change is common within Northern Kirmanji Kurdish; cam > cav ~ eye; nam > nav ~ name; etc.). And "remin" is akin to another Persian verb "remiden". As I said Sorani "riwin" and Kurmanji "rewend" are cognates of Persian "reften". Their ancient root is "rep-" if I am not mistaken.
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Posts: 550 		  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2010 at 07:42
Originally posted by Quaere Verum

Originally posted by Ince



On the diagram, it shows that Kurdish leaning towards/Shaping with Persian since the ancient times and separated after Middle-Persian.   Maybe be I am understanding the diagram wrong.
 
Kurdish and Persian are both Iranian languages, it means that they both are diverged from a unique point once upon a time. That unique point is referred to as "Proto Iranian language" or simply "Old Iranian language". The first divergence occurs when Old Iranian language splits into either "Northern" and "Southern" languages. Then we got another divergence in terms of being "Eastern" and "Western", and thus there appear "Northwestern", "Northeastern", "Southwestern", and "Southeastern" Iranian languages. The current "Kirmanji Kurdish" language is a blend, and not a mixture, of Mede (as a Northwestern) and Scythian (as a Northeastern) languages. But there are a considerable number of Persian loans within Kirmanji Kurdish lexicon, but they cannot explain any linguistc inclinations or rules for Kurdish since they are merely borrowed words.
 
In the previous example, Proto Indo European "g" turns into "dz" in Old Iranian language. Then Northwestern Iranian languages change it to "z", while Southwesterns turn it into "d":
 
Latin: ego (I)
 
Old Iranian: edze
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): ez
 
Old Persian (Southwestern): edem
 
 
Latin: gnoscere (know)
 
Old Iranian: dzen
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): zan
 
Talyshi (Northwestern): zen
 
Persian (Southwestern): dan
 
Luri (Southwestern): dun
 
Kurdish, as a Northwestern Iranian language, doesnt lean toward Persian (Southwestern) at all. Let me elucidate it by other examples:
 
Old Iranian "zu" becomes in Northwestern languages (Median) as "zb", but Northeastern languages (Avestan) represent it as "zw" whilst Southwestern ones (Persian) should hold it as "z":
 
Old Iranian: hezue (language)
 
Avestan (Northeastern): hezwe
 
Mede (Northwestern): hezbe
 
Old Persian (Southwestern): hezene
 
Kurdish (Northwestern): ezman < hezban
 
Persian (Southwestern): zeban < zuwan (a loan from Parthian "uzwan")
 
Old Iranian "k" later changes into "c". In Kurdish it is preserved as "sh" which often turns into "jh" but in Persian it is preserved as "z":
 
Old Iranian: reike (pour)
 
Kurdish: rish, rijh
 
Persian: riz
 
 
Old Iranian: veke (say)
 
Kurdish: wish, bejh ("bejh" and "wejh" are possibly loans from Parthian "wajh")
 
Persian: avaz (in sense of "song")
 
 
Old Iranian: peke (cook)
 
Kurdish: pish, pejh
 
Persian: pez
 
 
Originally posted by Ince


On the similar words between Kurdish and Persian.  Like I said on a previous post, my kurdish is not very good but ok.  At times I can pick up many words at times more then I can gorani. 

I try and watch some Persian clips on Youtube to see how much I can pick up.  For example in this video I find it easier to understand many words, but some Persian speakers are more harder to understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANgfs-ssDhM&feature=related
 
Well the whole idea above is up to your listening skills, thus cannot be regarded as a fact. I bet you would understand nothing if you ever heard a Yazdi Persian speaker's words. Listening is not that much reliable text is. Wink


Thanks for your reply.  I understand that their major differences between Kurmanji and Persian   The reason I say Kurmanji pronounce words similar to Persians is like the diagram below Kurmanji use Kh in words like Xwash Xwasin, and Zaza and South Kurds say wash and Wasin.   Zaza say Varan Kurmanji say Baran.  I am no linguastic expert but it is these similarties that I have noticed between Kurmanji and Persian.

I am not sure how correct the belows example are, I found them on Wikipedia.

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
*wvvb / gb / g
-
*weh1-nt-vātā-vābādbā
wind
*awer-vār-vārānbārānbārān
rain
*wekʷ-vāčvācāvāzbēj
sing, say
*weg'hvazaitivāz-bez-bez-
run
*wek-vāčvangbangbang, dang
voice
*wadh-vadveyvbayobuk
bride, wedding
*weren--varekbarrebarx
sheep
*w̯epvefr-vawr, vorbarfbefr
snow
*wen-veēn-vēn, vīnbīn-bīn-
see
*wīk'm̥tīvīsaitīvīstbistbist
twenty
*widhewovīthavavīyābīvebī
widow
*wei-vaeitiviyālbidbi
willow
*wes-vāstravāšgiyāhgiyā
grass
*wrdho-vard-vilgulgul
Flower
*wl̥kʷo-vēhrke-varggorggurg
wolf

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiKurmanciPersian
English
*k/*gz/sz/sz/sd/h
-
*k'erd-zerdeye-zerridildil
heart
*g'hol-zaranya-zerdzêrzar
gold
*g'no-zan-zan-zan-dān-
know
*g'emezamat-zamazavadāmād
groom
*eg'omezēmezez (min)ed- (man)
I
*bhrg'hberezantberzbilindboland
borough, high
*dek'm̥dasadesdehdah
ten

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
*gw / *kwj / čĵzž
-
*gwen-jainišĵenizanžın
woman
*gwhen-janĵin-zan-žen-
playing music, to beat
*gwiwo-jivĵiwiyayıšzīstanžıyan
live
*gwiwo-jivĵindezendezındi (loan)
alive
*sekw-uperhača-upairiĵorzabar- (bala)žor
up
*sekw-ndhero-hača-atharaĵêrzīržêr
down
*sekw-hača-ĵiaz/zeži
from
*leuk-reočah -roĵrūzrož
day
*wekw-vač-vaĵāvāzbêž
say, sing
*pekw-pač-pewĵ-paz-pêž
cook

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
ddbdd
-
*dhwer-dvaraberdarderi
door

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
trθrhrss
-
*trejesθrihrisese (loan)[6]
three
*trikomtθrisaitihrissisi (loan)[6]
thirty

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
*rg,*lg / *rdrz / rdrz / rrll
-
*bhrg'hberezantberzbolandbilind
borough, high
-herez-erzhil-hel
sprinkle, throw
--wurzlizalez
dash off, stand up, fly
*spleg'h-spērēzanserpezseporzsıpıl
spleen
-sered-, yareserresālsal
year
*k'erd-zerd-zerredildil
heart
*wrdho-verd-vılgulgul
rose

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
*swxvwx(u)x(w)
-
*swep-xvefne-witišxwābxew
sleep
-xveš-wešxošxweš
sweet
*swenh-xven-wend-xānd-xwend-
read
*swesorxveherwaxāharxweh
sister
-xver-werd-xord-xward-
swallow, eat

Indo-EuropeanAvestanZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
*mmmmv
-
*h1nomn̥namanamenāmnav
name
*sem-hama-āmnān(hāmīn)hāvīn
summer
*samos-hama-embazhambazheval
same

ZazakiPersianKurmanci
English
wtftt/wt/ft
-
hewthaftḥewt/heft
seven
kewtkaftket/kewt/keft
get in
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