Nice thread!
I learned some things. I read about the current condition of the Uighurs recently.

Originally posted by Xu Hua The independence movement of East Turkistan is merely a strategy of Russia Empire and USSR to weaken China. Remember, there are far more Turkic nations in Russia than in China. In 1870s, the Tsar supported Yaqub's Yatta Shahar Khanate in Xinjiang. Yaqub was an invader from Kokand Khanate. Notice that the Tsar had annexed the vast land of Central Asia where were the home of Turkic people. In 1940s, USSR became to support the independence movement of East Turkistan. In 1960s, when the relationship between USSR and PRC became worse, USSR agitated Uighurs, Kazaks, Uzbeks, Tatars to defect.   The independence movement is a pawn of world's big powers to weaken China.

Originally posted by calvo Originally posted by Sarmat12 Turks and Uighurs are still much closer to each other than Chinese and Japanese.   I could imagine so because: - Turks and Uighurs speak similar languages and can mostly understand each other without translation

AFAIK linguistics is the main thread. From what i know of the Turkic language  family,  it has remained 'largely' consistent relative to distance in both geography and time (of separation).  They may have distinct languages, but they're pretty close in comparison to other language groups.

Originally posted by calvo Originally posted by Sarmat12 Turks and Uighurs are still much closer to each other than Chinese and Japanese. - Turks and Uighurs speak similar languages and can mostly understand each other without translation

I don't really think that is true at all. I am studying Turkish right now and have been examining some of the differences/similiarities between Turkic languages and Turkish. You can probably understand some basic phrases such as "iyi aksamlar" (good afternoon) but I highly doubt somebody knowing only Turkish would be able to hold meaningful conversations in the Uyghur language. However as I am only studying Turkish and am not fluent in it... I really cannot say definitively.


Edited by ychennay - 24-Jan-2009 at 07:17

Ychennay I don't really think that is true at all. I am studying Turkish right now and have been examining some of the differences/similiarities between Turkic languages and Turkish. You can probably understand some basic phrases such as "iyi aksamlar" (good afternoon) but I highly doubt somebody knowing only Turkish would be able to hold meaningful conversations in the Uyghur language. However as I am only studying Turkish and am not fluent in it... I really cannot say definitively.

Listen to some Uygur Turkic
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=umMGVu2kYDU&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl4ZvlbrOhU&feature=related

As I said Turkic is a dialect continum, Turkish in Turkey merges with the Turkish spoken in Azerbaycan, Iran, Iraq with no clear distinction or boundry. This then happens with Turkmen of Turkmenistan. Khwarzemshah region of Ozbekistan/Turkmenistan is where this continues then into Eastern Turkistan/Xinjiang. Karakalpak is a continum to Kipchak to the North.

The closest main Turkic groups are Karluk/Chaghtay and Oghuz, this is due to historic regions, Karluk/Chaghtay was the lingua franca of Turkistan and most of the literature written was in this dialect, Oghuz was the lingua franca of the Ottoman Empire and had a strong presence in Azerbaycan/Northern Iran. These two had more interaction and influenced each other.

Kiphak remained most distant but there are exceptions, such as Crimean Tatar and Caucasus Turkic regions are like a blend between Kipchak/Oghuz.

Its not a Black and White issue, its mostly blurred and something inbetween.

""the Japanese are a predominantly Buddhist nation, while the Chinese are still mostly pagan.""

Umm, thats not true at all. Japan is quite none-thiest just like China. There are many people who worship the Buddha, but the same can be said of China.

Yeah, and Japanese also have the alphabets which Chinese have no clue about.

The Japanese use Hiragana and Katakana, both of which were phonetically modeled on Kanji characters. The point is, Japanese Kanji are mostly the same as Chinese kanji, and are mutually comprehensible, if a Chinese person walks to Japan, they can get around by just reading kanji, I've been there and done that. My Japanese friends have done the same thing in China. Yet a Turk can't do the same in Xinjiang. And I also know that from experience since I lived in Urumchi for 3 years, the people there are nothing like the Turks of Turkey other than the fact that they are both muslims and has a supposed common linguistic and historical origin.

Edited by honeybee - 31-Jan-2009 at 14:58

Dick I am bombarded with Uighur dance and music all around me, and I see little resemblance to the music or dances I hear in Turkey.

Just a little example.

Nadira - Hasret Çektim نادىرە ھەسرەت چەكتىم

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZbGmnOylM

Hasret Chektim

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fN7A7Yix4oE&feature=related

Same song, one sung in Turkey one in Eastern Turkistan/Xinjian.

There are similar and same instruments used, similar musical traditions and so on, claiming their is no resemblance is incorrect.

Dick Religion is only important to countries with strong religious traditions.

Religion can be so important that nations can be divided, like in Ireland.

It can be one of the factor which influence a peoples culture or identity as it can have effect on how society does certain things.

Dick  Language roots(not mutually comprehensible language, which the Uighurs and Turks don't share) are only important to linguists and modern ultranationalists, neither of which is important to China or Japan.

Language, religion, identity, culture etc are the factors which differentiate groups of human societies called nations, without them were all simply humans, therefore if were discussing ethnics or nations characteristics these are the important factors. Otherwise, were all pretty much the same and their is no point of further discussion.

Dick Bull. And you accuse me of not doing enough research? The Chinese and Japanese both have Buddhism and Zen. And both countries are mainly non-religious today.

Japanese also have Shintoism, Chinese have Taoism and being non-religous isn't a shared belief.

Even 60% of Japanese words has Chinese origin, and many modern Chinese word compounds have Japanese origin.

So you can understand Japanese can you.

Dick  Whether or not Uighurs share the same language family is a mute point, the point been that they and the Turks are mutually incomprehensible.

When you learn the language then you decide for yourself, there is a degree of mutual intellegibility between the two, if you knew either language you could get by in the other country, now I'm not saying they would be 100% fluent but would know enough to not be alienated and within a relatively short amount of time be more or less fluent after adjusting to the lexical differences.

Dick Chinese and Japanese both have Buddhism and atheism, so you are simply wrong on the religion part. As for linguistic group, thats only of interest to the linguists.

Atheism is not a shared religous tradition.
Japanese and Chinese lack the fundamental basics which unite ethnic groups, language, religion and they don't identify or have sympathies as being distant relatives either.

Basically, "you" believe Chinese and Japanese are virtually the same, that's fine, nationhood can be subjective but if we look at what can be discussed objectively, like language, religion and so on they are not as close as you make out.