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rider
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Topic: Polish Field Commanders - 17th century Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 05:31 |
Which of these is the greatest field commander of Poland? That means that no naval commander counts.
Edited by rider - 25-Aug-2006 at 06:14
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boody4
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 13:53 |
Without a doubt for me, my vote goes to King Jan III Sobieski.
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Keltoi
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:11 |
Reasons why?
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Mosquito
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:20 |
Lubomirsky was great untill betrayed. For sure he showned his mastership as commander in war against Russia, defeating all Russian armies but next he signed bad peace treaty with Russia just to have free back when leaded his army against king John Casimir.
Also Stephen Czarniecki proved his extraordinary skills on the battlefield.
As for Sobieski for sure he was a master in fighting Turks. He made many campaigns and won 2 major battles, first at Chocim and next in Vienna.
All mentioned commanders were good in the field and its really hard to say which one was the best.
Actually we can say that Lubomirski was better than king John Casimir because he leaded succesfull rebelion against this king.
Edited by Mosquito
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TJK
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:27 |
I think in the second half of XVII centaury Sobieski have really no
competitors. Podhajce, raid on the czambuls 1672 , Chocim, Vienna,
Parkany..
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Mosquito
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 15:03 |
Originally posted by TJK
I think in the second half of XVII centaury Sobieski have really no competitors. Podhajce, raid on the czambuls 1672 , Chocim, Vienna, Parkany.. |
Wasnt Lubomirski also very succesfull commander? His campaign against Russia was brillant. Can you say that if Lubomirski had such army like Sobieski at Chocim he wouldnt win as well?
What about Wisniowiecki and his fight against much larger Chmielnicki forces?
And Czarniecki also did great job in much harder situation and in much worse time.
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TJK
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 15:38 |
Lubomirski was very able commander indeed - battle of Cudnw is
masterpiece of strategy, however his tactical and strategic skill
could not be compared (in my opinion) with Sobieski. Lubomirski
together with Czarniecki were in first place the cavalry commanders,
the way they command the combined arms was a little obsolete. Thus they
were defeated by Swedish forces during the "Deluge" period.. Sobieski
has shown his great tactical skill as cavalry commander mainly during
the raid of czambules when in other battles he prove to be able to use
combined arms..
With Wiśniowiecki we have no data ..he have command (as general
commander) only quite unnumerous corps..I think with his tactical skill
he was equal to the Janusz Radziwiłł.
Great webiste about Jarema:
http://www.jarema.art.pl/
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Mosquito
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 15:55 |
And what do you think about king John Casimir and his military skills?
As you know im not an expert on 17th century so i value your opinion on these matters. Altough im not an expert and cant compare my knowledge about this period with yours, i have read some articles about him. In general i have learned that he wasnt an enthusiast of polish-lithuanian army and prefered to rely on foreign mercenary troops, especially infantry. He was also well educated in military strategy and tactics. Was battle of Beresteczko his achievemnt or some other commander stayed behind it?
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TJK
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 16:14 |
I think we should give credit to the Johanes Cassimirus for this battle..this was his idea of the "western type formation" used at Beresteczko ( advised by Zygmunt Przyjemski and Christoff Houvaldt). Generally I think he was able commander but not the great..Victory at Beresteczko should not blanke off the defeats at Zborowo, Żwaniec, Warsaw and finally Mątwy...
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boody4
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Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 19:05 |
Well, I'll be honest, I've only read two history books on Poland . I haven't been as lucky as native Poles who get to have their extremely interesting history lessons . I chose Sobieski because I haven't really heard of the reputations of the others as marshals and because of, I think, one of Poland's greatest victories: The Battle of Vienna.
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rider
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Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 03:16 |
Originally posted by TJK
With Wiśniowiecki we have no data ..he have command (as general commander) only quite unnumerous corps..I think with his tactical skill he was equal to the Janusz Radziwiłł. |
Well, have you ever heard of Zbaraz- Wisniowiecki held there the Tartars and Cossacks back with maybe 10,000 men a force of 10 or 15 times greater, he made many fierce battles with Chmielnicki and won them. And then came the forces of Jan II Kazimierz and won of the enemy finally.
Polish forces retreated to the fortified camp of Zbaraz (10 July to 25 August 1649) where a relatively small force of some 9,000 Polish troops held back the entire might of Chmielniecki and the Khan for over six weeks.
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TJK
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Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:33 |
have you ever heard of Zbaraz |
I would say it's rather strange question..when I have two Wisniowiecki biografies on my bookshelf.
Zbaraz was a siege (an you have asked about field commander)..
he made many fierce battles with Chmielnicki and won them.. |
Inaccurate. Wisniowiecki have repulsed many Cossack's storms and was succesful during some sallys otside the fortification but it still far from winning many battle with Chmielnicki...
And then came the forces of Jan II Kazimierz and won of the enemy finally. |
Absolutely untrue ! Chmielnicki have split the army and marched with main corps towards Jan Kazimierz, then he ambused polish forces near the Zborw. Only bribery of Crimean Khan by polish chancellor Jerzy Ossolińki have rescued polish army from destruction.
BTW I think Wisniowiecki was really good - he have palyed great role during battle of Ochmatw as well as at Beresteczko (he have commnaded left polish wing). The defence of Zabaraż is also mainly his credit...however IMO he could not be compared with Sobieski, Chodkiewicz or Koniecpolski..
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rider
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Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:49 |
ah, almost the same...
sorry.
and field commanders, now i count wisniowiecki as one of them too...
and from few points all battles were sieges, for they built fortifications
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cavalry4ever
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 12:23 |
I would like to mention Hetman Zolkiewski in the Kluszyn
battle against Russians.
His army of 6,800 was stuck between two Russian armies: one
with 8,000 men and other with 35,000 men. Even Napoleon would have some
misgivings about starting battle under these circumstances. Zolkiewski attacked
the smaller force and forced them to seek refuge in a nearby fortified town and
left some minimal forces to keep enemy inside fortifications, then turned his main
force against bigger army of 35,000 and managed to defeat them, then came back
to finish the smaller Russian and mercenary force. This was one of the battles
involving Polish Hussars. Hussar losses were very minimal (about 100).
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Mosquito
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 14:40 |
Afcourse you are right and we all know who Zolkiewski was and what battles he has won but here we were debating about polish field commanders of late XVII century.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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cavalry4ever
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 16:09 |
Originally posted by Mosquito
Afcourse you are right and we all know who Zolkiewski
was and what battles he has won but here we were debating about polish
field commanders of late XVII century. |
Sorry guys. I had several windows open and did not pay attention to the header.
I looked at names only and some of these commanders accomplishements span the century.
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cavalry4ever
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Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 18:04 |
I looked at this list and have one comment: All great
military leaders from this list will be dead by the end of century. Some of
them were already the great leaders in the first half of century. Some of these
leaders were better that any of their European counterparts. What is
interesting is that this list doesnt contain any leaders that could lead Poland
military into the next century. In any country, such end of century list would contain also next century leaders as
well. It would be interesting to open discussion on XVIII century Poland.
It is very interesting to see the decline of a great empire. Lubomirski is probably the sign of things to
come. Another thing, you are dealing with history that is not well known for
many of readers yet they may want to follow these discussions, could you
provide more dates?
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Surenas
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Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 05:51 |
Hello all,
in your opinion which of these commanders was the best at handling cavalry?
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rider
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 02:57 |
MAybe SObieski was most familiar with cavalry, although if you were a Polish general then you had to be good at handling cavalry.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 11:14 |
Rider is right. Most of them were much better commanders of cavalry than infantry.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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