Persian did lost even in the Middle Persian phase the old iranian pronome for "I".
Old Indoeuropean *egHom will be in Old Iranian *ezem, in Avesta ezêm, in Old Persian it will be because of the typical z > d change "edem". But in Middle Persian there was using "ân" for "I" and todays Persian use only "men" for it, which has the meaning of "me".
The same process has made Central Kurdish (Sorani) and Southern Kurdish, they also don't know "ez" for "I", they use "min".
Persian "ez" (in their alphabet: az) means "from", it shares the same root as Kurdish "ji", which was in Parthian "ej", in Avesta "hechâ".
Persian did lost even in the Middle Persian phase the old iranian pronome for "I".
Old Indoeuropean *egHom will be in Old Iranian *ezem, in Avesta ezêm, in Old Persian it will be because of the typical z > d change "edem". But in Middle Persian there was using "ân" for "I" and todays Persian use only "men" for it, which has the meaning of "me".
The same process has made Central Kurdish (Sorani) and Southern Kurdish, they also don't know "ez" for "I", they use "min".
Persian "ez" (in their alphabet: az) means "from", it shares the same root as Kurdish "ji", which was in Parthian "ej", in Avesta "hechâ".
Thanks for the info heval. You seem to have a good understanding of the Iranian Languages. Do you by any chance know anything about Kurdish having some Hurrian langauge elements in it? I've read this claim by Kurds and would like to know what part of Kurdish has Hurrian elements. It looks as if Kurdish ia mainly all Iranic with some outside influence by Arabic mainly due to Islam and Armenian but that is little. Also has Kurmanji in anway influenced Zaza or Zaza on Kurmanji? they have been living close to eachother for a long time.
My great grand father on my mother side was Zaza, who I never met as I am 17. But no one on my mother side can speak any Zaza only Kurmanji.
Persian did lost even in the Middle Persian phase the old iranian pronome for "I".
Old Indoeuropean *egHom will be in Old Iranian *ezem, in Avesta ezêm, in Old Persian it will be because of the typical z > d change "edem". But in Middle Persian there was using "ân" for "I" and todays Persian use only "men" for it, which has the meaning of "me".
The same process has made Central Kurdish (Sorani) and Southern Kurdish, they also don't know "ez" for "I", they use "min".
Persian "ez" (in their alphabet: az) means "from", it shares the same root as Kurdish "ji", which was in Parthian "ej", in Avesta "hechâ".
About Persian language, you should certainly consider Germanic sound changes too, for example as I said in another thread we know proto-IE "g" is changed to "k" in Germanic but "s/z" in Iranian, so English cold from proto IE *gol, is changed to Iranian sard, but what is the Persian word for English cool? Persian kool also means "cold/cool", you probably know the meaning of Persian words: koolak, kooran, ...
Or from the proto-IE *gala (head), there is the Iranian word sar but in Persian kalla also means "head" and kula means "hat":
Proto-Germanic:*kulla-z, *kull=
Meaning:head, head-like object
IE etymology:
Old Norse:koll-r m. `runder Gipfel; Kopf, Schädel'
Dutch:kol m. `wite vlek op het voorhoofd', dial. `voorhofd'
Middle Low German:kol, kolle `Kopf, oberster Teil von Pflanzen'
About proto-IE *egho that you mentioned, we know in Germanic it has been changed to ekha or ikha (Old High German ih and Modern German ich), Persian ekho or kho has the same origin too, in Modern Persian there are khoish (خویش) "self", khod (خود) "ego", ...
Most likely from some 1400 years ago, simultaneously by introduction of Islam. From a conventional linguistic viewpoint Persian language, from that point on, is referred to as "New Persian".
Originally posted by Ince
How much of it is outside influenced.
Stranger impacts are somehow restricted to Arabic as well as Turkic/Mongolian influences, of which the first one's strenght is considerable.
Originally posted by Ince
Did the Turkic control of Iran have any linguastic influence on the Iranian langauges?
For sure it did. As far as I know no Iranian language has scaped Turkic defilement in terms of linguistics.
Originally posted by Ince
Did the Iranians of Parthia and Sassanid era all spoke a closer langauge to eachother?
Iranian languages in those periods were certainly much closer compared to nowadays, but in fact there were also differences at the time.
Vast majorities of foreign loaned words in Persian have a native Persian synonym in modern Persian.
It is not exactly so. We are better to say "the majority of loanwords in Persian have an Iranian synonym in modern Persian." For exmple as a matter of fact the only counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" ~ "special" in New Persian is "vizheh", which is exactly a loan borrowed from a Northeastern Iranian language and, if I am not mistaken, is a akin to another New Persian word "gozideh", this time a pure Persian word in senses of "selected" or "elite".
you can hardly find a large book like the Persian book of Shahnameh of Ferdosi with almost no non-Persian words in other languages
A significant number of non-Arabic words within Ferdowsi's Shahnameh are particularly of Northeastern Iranian origin, mostly Sogdian (e.g. vizheh, aghaz, etc.). Nonetheless they would be still more sensible choices rather than Arabic loans, since they are of Iranian origin anyways.
I have noticed that the word for name in farsi is "Esmeh" it sounds very similar to Turkish and Arabic word for name. Other iranian languages use Nam or Nav.
There are two forms of Persian in effect. Official Persian and Colloquial Persian. The later one is used by Persian speakers in their daily life and is teemed with Arabic loans, one of them "esm" < "ism" ~ "name".
Does anyone have any info on the Kurdish dialects Gorani? It's origin? I just cannot understand hardly what a Gorani speaker says at all. I understand and speak Kurmanji a bit and can pretty much understand Sorani about the same as it does not have big difference to Kurmanji.
Gorani Kurdish holds a very vague background up to now. It is referred to a body of dialects such as Hewrami, Kakei, Bajelan, as well as classical poetry so-called "Gorani" (which "Gorani Kurdish" is named after it). From a linguistic viewpoint it, Gorani Kurdish, is a language. Along with Kirmanji Kurdish (comprised of Kurmanji-Northern, Sorani-Central, and Kirmajhi-Southern dialects). Most likely it is due to a later Parthian impact on Kurdish, which has ushered into appearance of Zaza and Gorani languages, two Northwestern Iranian languages which are spoken by 10% of Kurds.
i am speaking kalhor dialect which is very near or simmilar to gorani . sandjabi and ghalkhni which are south kurdish tribes dialects and near to sorani dialect spoken in iraqi kurdestan.
no wonder that you do not understand south kurdish dialects.
we may understand kurmanji , but speaking kurmanji even hawrami and zaza is impossible for me .
the south kurdish dialects are very mixed or if not drived from sasanid (pahlavi language) origin, because the region where we lived was in the heart of sasanid empire.(between biseton and ctisfon)
well the present day "Gorani" tribe around Kirmanshan, speak a variety of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish and not Gorani Kurdish, in effect. This is why you might find it close to Kelhuri, which is the major subdialect of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish. By the way Southern Kurdish dialects are by no means derived from any specific origin unless Kurdish. Despite the Persian influence which is discernable in any Kurdish dialects, Southern Kirmanji Kurdish is basically different comapred to Zoroastrian Persian (or Middle Persian), the language of Sassanid dynasty. Since Kurdish is a Northwestern Iranian language and Persian is a Southwestern one:
Old Iranian : Southern Kurdish : Middle Persian : New Persian : Meaning
(I romanized Old Iranian, Middle Persian, and New Persian definition in Kurdish Latin Alphabet)
Kirmanji Kurdish dialects have diverged throughout history because Kurds ironically lack a standard language so far, therefore Kirmanji Kurdish (Northern, Central, and Southern dialects) speakers would hardly comprehend each other in the first bump into each other. Nonetheless they could easily arrange to deal with it on their own initiative since their vernaculars (the three main dialects)are linguistically dialects of a unique language.
Whiles doing more research on the Kurdish languages I found this.
"In fact, the current thinking is that the Kurdish language Kurmanji originated in southern Iran, while Zazaki, Kirmancki and Gurani originated in northern Iran (McKenzie, 1961: 68-86; Minorsky, 1964: 13-14 and Izady 1988: 23 "
It, the current belief about Kirmanji Kurdish being originated in southern Iran, is based on a linguistic theory issued by McKeznie, and is refutable since McKenzie himself comes with the confession that his knowledge is almost nothing about Southern Kirmanji dialect. A dialect whose lexicon explicitly refutes the linguistic conculsions inferred by McKenzie in his article on origins of Kurdish.
Originally posted by Ince
"The present state of Kurdological knowledge allows, at least roughly, drawing the approximate borders of the areas where the main ethnic core of the speakers of the contemporary Kurdish dialects was formed. The most argued hypothesis on the localisation of the ethnic territory of the Kurds remains D. N. Mackenzie’s theory, proposed in the early 1960s (Mackenzie 1961). Developing the ideas of P. Tedesco (1921: 255) and regarding the common phonetic isoglosses shared by Kurdish, Per- sian, and Baluchi (*-r- > -s-, *dw- > d-, *y- > -, *w- > b-/g-), D. N. Mac- kenzie concluded that the speakers of these three languages may have once been in closer contact. He has tried to reconstruct the alleged Persian-Kurdish-Baluchi linguistic unity presumably in the central parts of Iran. According to his theory, the Persians (or Proto-Persians) occu- pied the province of Fars in the south-west (proceeding from the as- sumption that the Achaemenids spoke Persian), the Baluchis (Proto- Baluchis) inhabited the central areas of Western Iran, and the Kurds (Proto-Kurds), in the wording of G. Windfuhr (1975: 459), lived either in north-west Luristan or in the province of Isfahan."
"Thus, it is beyond doubt that, as was noted above, Kurdish, as a North-Western dialect, has been shaped in a South-Western environ- ment and, what is more important, the area of its formation was situ- ated in a far geographical distance from the Caspian region and Atur- patakan. In other words, the most probable option for an ethnic terri- tory of the speakers of Kurdish remains the northern areas of Fars in Iran, as suggested by Mackenzie. But when did the Kurdish migrations to the north begin, particularly to the territories they currently occupy? And what were the peripéteia of this demographic displacement? "
Professor Garnik Asatrian (Yerevan University) (2009).
Could this be true? It will turn the current theory of the origins of the Kurds upside down. That Kurmanji and Sorani originated further south Iran, more near Lurs?.
Besides the aforsaid linguistic insufficiency, there is also no historical materials to back up such a theory. Lurs already live next to Kurds, and the greatest tribe of them namely Bakhtiary used to consider themselves as ethnic "Kurds", since their largest city "Shahr-e Kord" witnesses. There had been confederations of Kurdish and Luri (southwestern speakers) tribes during the last 20 centuries, which could have caused a stronger Southwestern Iranian imapct on Kirmanji Kurdish, besides Persian influence.
then we have a group of language called LEKI spoken in many cities like , sahane, kangavar , hersin , nahavand upp to hamadan surounding cities of kermanshah, leki is so near kurdish that easily could be understood by kurdi speaking people rather than farsi speaking and why many times it is classified as a kurdish dialect.
Leki is exactly a subdialect of Southern Kirmanji Kurdish. The only major difference between Leki and other Southern Kurdish varieties is the durative maker "me-" (mekem, mecim, mewshim, etc.) which is a Middle Persian loan via Gorani Kurdish. While the other Kurdish subdialects got "di-", "de-", or "e-". But a simple glance at the verb stems confirms the Kurdishness of Leki:
Leki : Southern Kurdish : Gorani (Hewrami) : Persian : Meaning
mecim : ecim : melu : mirevem : I go
mewshim : ewshim : macu : miguyem : I say
mewnim : ewnim : moynu : mibinem : I see
mekem : ekem : mekeru : mikonem : I do
bico : bicu : bilu : boro : go (imperative)
bush : bush : wace : begu : say!
bike : bike : kere : bokon : do!
(Southern Kurdish examples from Koliyayi; Persian examples are romanized in Kurdish Latin alphabet)
Even a comarison between Leki and a remote and diverged Kurdish subdialect such as one those of Northern Kurdish (Kurmanji) subdialects could tell on its, Leki', Kurdishness:
Leki : Kurmanji : Meaning
mecim : dicim : I go
mewshim : dibejhim : I say
mewnim : dibinim : I see
mekem : dikem : I do
bico : bice : go (imperative)
bush : bejhe : say!
bike : bike : do!
Originally posted by kalhur
the leks sometime they call themselves Lek and sometime kurd too it depends to their mood!!
People are free to call themselves at their will, nonetheless the reality stays unchanged.
Vast majorities of foreign loaned words in Persian have a native Persian synonym in modern Persian.
It is not exactly so. We are better to say "the majority of loanwords in Persian have an Iranian synonym in modern Persian." For exmple as a matter of fact the only counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" ~ "special" in New Persian is "vizheh", which is exactly a loan borrowed from a Northeastern Iranian language and, if I am not mistaken, is a akin to another New Persian word "gozideh", this time a pure Persian word in senses of "selected" or "elite".
Persian "gozidan" and "vijdan" have probably the same origin, the second one can be also explained by the Germanic sound changes, it can be compared with Dutch wijden: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wijden
Het Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam is gewijd aan het werk van Van Gogh en zijn tijdgenoten.[1] — The Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam is dedicated to the work of Van Gogh and his contemporaries.
This because of the way Gorani/Zazaki pronounce words, Kurmanji and Sorani pronounce many words more similar to Persian.
I have to disagree. Gorani (Hewrami) speakers absolutely sound the same as Sorani and Southern Kurdish speakers, while Zaza speakers often remind me, as a native Sorani speaker, of Northern Kurdish speakers, namely Kurmanji speakers.
Originally posted by Ince
So this theory that Kurmanji originated more further south might have merit to it.It might also rule out the Corduene as the ancestors of the Kurds. As not much information is known about them or wether they even spoke a Iranian language. Plus Corduene/Gorduene was most part of it's history was not under Persian control.
I am sorry but no one could take such theories for granted on account of one's personal perceptions.
Originally posted by Ince
What about the name Kurd? where did it originated.
It is probably has something to do with a Hurrian background. Hurrians spoke an ergative language as well as they are believed to be originated from Caucasia. Goergians also refer to themselves as "Kartveli" which could resemble "Kartox" (older form of "Kurd") at the first sight. But as a matter of fact the etymology of "Kurd" is still obscure.
Originally posted by Ince
Some people claim the Modern term, poped up after the fall of the Sassanids. During the Sassanids, the term Kurd was used to describe Nomads,
It is not reasonable. In the oldest Middle Persian document in reach, namely "Karnamag-i Ardashir Babegan" the term "Kurd" is directly and obviously indicated as a group of people. Also Ferdowsi, the Iranian poet who is well-known for recovering Sassanid facts in his post-Islamic works, explicitly distinguishes Kurds as a unique ethnicity, and not "Nomadic peoples in general".
Originally posted by Ince
so how did all the current Kurdish tribes be known as Kurds? Could the Medes that lived in the regions that Kurds live today have been Kurdified? maybe the name changed gradually. As it is also written that Arabs used to refer to the regions where Kurds lived as Kurds as well. It could of been a social label that grew to describe everyone in the region.
To me it was the pre-Iranian people, namely Hurrians, who got Aryanified by Medes as well as Cimmerian Scythians (as you can find a very strong Scythian impact on todays Kirmanji Kurdish langauge). Possibly since the first non-Persian people against which Arabs had to bump, were Kurds thus they gradually referred to all non-Persian peoples of Iran as "Kurds" for a while. For example they also have referred to ancient Daylamites as "Kurds of Gilan" whilst they were by no means a nomadic people.
in New Persian is "vizheh", which is exactly a loan borrowed from a Northeastern Iranian language and, if I am not mistaken, is a akin to another New Persian word "gozideh".
Persian "gozidan" and "vijdan" have probably the same origin
I have not heard of "vizhidan" (if you mean so by "vijdan") as a verb approved by Persian Academy of Language. Nevertheless I am pretty sure about "vizheh" in sense of "special" and as an official counterpart for Arabic "makhsus" which is still widely used in conversational Persian. "Gozideh" as I have already affirmed is of Persian origin (from Middle Persian "wizidan") but "vizheh" can by no means be speculated Persian since Old Iranian "k" > "c" is reflected as "z" in New Persian as well as Middle Persian (e.g. rauca > roz / ruz ~ day; haca > az ~ from; kaina-ca > kaniz ~ maiden), and the ancient "v" turns into either "b" or "g" in New Persian (e.g. vata > bad; waran > baran; vafra > barf; varaza > goraz; vinas > gonah; vitara > gozar; vahrka > gorg). "Vizheh" represents non-Persian characteristics by "v" as well as "zh"; whilst "gozideh" is a pure Persian word.
I read once somewhere that it might of been Gord, it was changed Kurd because Arabs can't pronounce G so they used K instead, the same way for Parsi/Farsi. But it seems unlikey tho.
Some claim that Sassanids has names that were similar to Kurdish words, I cannot understand my self and doubt it as well. Maybe you can.
Erdeshīr Ezdigirt Źnoshīrewan Erdewan
It is originally "gurd" and recorded in Parthian texts for first time in meaning of "braveheart" or "hero". So that it antedates Sassanians. Since there is no specific Iranian etymology for "gurd" thus we could give it a whirl that it might be coined after the name of a people, Kurds, with a little sound change. Also many original "k" sounds are pronounced as "g" in Parthian. Another example in this sense could be Georgian "gimer" ~ "hero" which is after Cimmerians.
By the way Sassanians were, as Karnamagi Ardashiri Babagan asseverates, a Persian tribe who lived amongst Kurds during the so-called bestial reign of Alexander's successors.
in our tribe the names are very much like old sasanides. both men and women.
goudars. yamasp ,tamasp. ardawan, sasan,( dara , iredj . esfandiar, fariborz,shapour, hoshang, dariush, kayghobad , kayvan, kamran and women irandokht, torandokt, porandokht,shirin , my grand mother's name was arezoo and my mother irandokht) these last names inside parantes is all the names in my own family and many of relatives have very old iranic names like the late uncle azarbarzin!! khan
Such forenames are also shared with Persians, Lurs, Gilakis, etc. these are typical Iranian names. They cannot imply any specific linguistic connection, since Southern Kurdish speakers from Iraq (Khanaqin, Kut, Mandali) as well those immigrants that live in a linguistic enclave in Anatolia, Turkey (Hayman Shex Bizini Kurdish) do not share those aformentioned names in the same degree as Iranian Kurds do.
kurmanji spoken in northern parts of iraq and turkey is much more near to persian than south kurdish dialect, exemple
farsi
khadane be zabane kordi(it is writen khvandan in persian like kurmani ,but spoken khandan!!!)
kurmanji
kvandena va zemana kordi.
my dialect.
xwenin wa zwanie kordi
Kurmanji (Northern Kirmanji Kurdish) could be speculated closer to Persian only in terms of changing ancient "v" into either "b" or "g", whilst its grammar is specifically purer than those of Southern and Central Kirmanji Kurdish dialects.
By the way I think your given examples need to be emended:
Persian: xanden be zabane Kordi (~ reading in Kurdish language)
Northern Kirmanji: xwendin bi zimane / ezmane Kurdi
Southern Kirmanji: xwenin we ziwane Kurdi
Both Southern and Northern Kurdish "xwen-" are better preserved compared to Persian "xan-" when we consider the Old Iranian root "hven-".
Also Southern Kurdish "we" is a distorted from of "be" which itself is derived from "pe". In some Kurmanji dialects still they use "pi" instead of "bi". Also in the bulk of Kirmanji Kurdish dialects when it joins "-i" becomes "pe" like Sorani "be min bejhe" ~ "tell to me", "wutim pet" ~ "I told you".
Southern Kurdish as well as some Central (like Senendeji) and even Northern Kurdish (like Serhedi) word for "language", "zuwan", is a Middle Persian loan "zuwan" > New Persian "zeban". While most Northern Kurdish as well as Central Kurdish subdialects represent "ziman" or "ezman" which exquisitly tells on an earlier form of "ezban" and reflects a specific Mede sound-group "-zb-" (hezbe ~ language) as opposed to Avestan "-zw-" (hezwe ~ language).
In farsi go/gone means raftan. In Kurmanji it's haran/cun but raftan also has similar meaning. I asked my mother what Raftan means, she said it means someone whos gone quickly I am not sure if all Kurmanji speaks have the same.
In Northern Kirmanji Kurdish or "Kurmanji" it is "herin" and "cun" for "to go". Both have nothing to do with Persian "reften". This Persian verb is found in Central Kirmanji Kurdish so-called "Sorani" "riwin" ~ "to go" which is used along with "cun". Kurmanji "herin" has the same root as Sogdian "xer-" ~ "to go", but the most interesting point is about "cun" (Southern Kurdish "cin") which retains Old Iranian "c-" in "ciyev" ~ "to go". In all Middle as well as Modern Iranian language this verb has changed into "shew" ( c > sh), except for ancient Scythian languages, Ossetian (modern Scythian), and Kurdish which preserve original "c". Its Persian cognate is "shoden".
Northern Kurmanji "rewend" which means "migration" is akin to Persian verb "reften".
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