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Asawar Hazaraspa
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Topic: Just how could Persia lose to Greece? Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 11:59 |
As we know that horsed units such as cavalry played a significant role in the military culture of early Iranics, Achamenids were no exception but as we understood of the accounts of battles such as Guagamala as an example of the late Achaemenid, apart from the nature of a disorderly army composed of mercenaries, although cavalry were important, we see no brilliance as from the part of the cavalry. Comparing this with the quoted cavalry brilliance of the Parthians and Sassanids in many Roman accounts we can conclude that Achaemenids didn't pay heed to this matter like Parthians for instance. Another mysterious point is the defeat of the Darius I at hands of Scythians, this also to some extent shows that Scythians were superior in terms of employing cavalry and Achaemenids somehow receded from this old Iranian tradition of warmongering. (also considering the fact that one of the main reasons of their defeat was fighting in the enemy's ground far away from supplies and home). The importance of this is despite Macedo-Greek warfare development which was a substantial factor in defeating Achaemenids, Phalanx regiments actually faced major problems fighting Parni (Parthian) and Scythian cavalry especially their horse-archers, whose fighting style was more Iranian than Achaemenids, the thing which led in the overthrowing of the two Macedo-Greek Kingdoms in eatern lands of Alexander's empire (i.e. Seleucid empire and the powerful Greek Bactrian kingdom).
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Ardashir
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Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 13:48 |
I think the internal fightings and rivalries between various Perso-Median officers, princes, etc played a vital role in the defeat of the Achamaneids. Also it should be noted that Philip's new military tactics (phalanx) were really important. Actually the Macedonians defeated the Greeks and occupied Greece before their victories over the Persians. Thus I would say, Macedonian military was superior to both Greek and Persian military. Don't forget that in the early battles of Alex, there were more Greek mercenaries on Darius' army then on Macedonain's army.
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 16:47 |
Another thing to keep in mind is that Alexanders men were trained in pankration
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Yiannis
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Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 20:01 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Another thing to keep in mind is that Alexanders men were trained in pankration |
I'm not aware of that. Any sources?
Even if they were, how would that help them in battle?
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 00:50 |
Here you go
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:27 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Here you go
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating |
And lightly armoured men are much more mobile and respond to attacks more easily.
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:27 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Here you go
It would help a lot in battle do you think they just swung their weapons at each other? you win a lot faster if you get in close punch the guy, throw him down and then stab him and on the lightly armored persians it would be devestating |
And lightly armoured men are more mobile and respond to attacks more easily.
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What is the officer problem?
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:36 |
But if you can't get through the phalangites armor (one of the greeks biggest advantages) there's no point, besides the persians didn't have pankration
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:37 |
Yeah but you can't get through the greeks armor, which was one of the greeks biggest advantages, and the persiand didn't have pankration
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:40 |
yeah but you can't get through the greeks armor which was one of the greeks biggest advantages, and the persians didn't have pankration
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 02:33 |
Lighter armoured men can defeat heavily armoured men. Take a look at the crusades for an example. The lighter armoured Muslim cavalry and infantry defeated many heavily armoured crusaders. There are numerous instances where the lighter Persian army defeated heavier Greek troops.
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 02:59 |
Yes I know that however there are also a lot of instances where the heavily armored man won like Alexanders men light troops and samurai are not the be all and end all of armies
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:04 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Yes I know that however there are also a lot of instances where the heavily armored man won like Alexanders men light troops and samurai are not the be all and end all of armies |
Heavy, medium, and light armour all has its advantages and disadvantages, but I would not say the Greeks had an advantage because they had heavy armour.
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:08 |
Read about thermopylae, read about the pelopenniasian wars, read about every conflict between the greeks and persians
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:14 |
I have, in fact this is one of my strongest areas, along with the conquests of Cyrus, Cambyses, and Darius.
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:17 |
Those were cool times dangerous as all get out but cool none the less
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:20 |
Certainly interesting, as with all eras of history.
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Darius of Parsa
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:26 |
Originally posted by TJK
There were many reasons..
Starting from the end of persian-greek war in the beginnig of V
centaury BC, Greeks have recognized their miltary system is superior to
the Persian..this was confirmed during the civil wars in Persia -
especially during the Cyrus the Younger expedition. Greek military
supriopriority was still not enough to conquer the whole Persian Empire
when the greeks was not united..It was also well known in Persopolis..
thus the principle of Persian rulers politics was to not admit that the
single Greek state will have the dominat position..this politics works
well in V and in first half of IV cenatury. This was however ruined
when the two brillant successive figures have occured in near Greece
area. Macedonian king Philip II have introduced the revolutionary
changes to the art of warfare and due to its impementation have
subordinated the whole Greece. Philip's son - Alexander have developed
his fahter's ideas as well in wafare as in ambitions.
Thus the main reasons were:
- the genius of greek/macedonians leaders
- the supriority of greek/macedonian warfare
- decentalization of Persian Empire
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You cannot pin Greek and Persian tactics against each other because there are too many differences.
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Seko
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Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 15:56 |
Guys don't turn this thread into another two man historical amusement show!
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Batu
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Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 22:04 |
Originally posted by jamshidi_f
PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS. |
here you are Khan.Its the Persian perspective of Alex-Persia wars
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A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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