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Balaam
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Topic: Jews - race or religion Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 06:52 |
This is a topic I have often thought about and have asked several people and looked at a few different websites and to me they are both a religion and race and to my personal opinion I believe they are a religion because you can convert into Judaism and such so I ask for your opinions on whether a Jew is somebody from a religion or a certain country.
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:18 |
The Hebrew used to be a tribe (ethny in modern terms) but the genetic unity of such a tribe is gone for long. Historically we can be sur that there were at least two different types of Hebrews as soon as the third century BC. On the one hand the Hebrew in Palestine and on the other those abroad (Egypt and Greece mainly). It all changed in 70 AD when the Hebrew were fired by the Romans.
Since then no genetic unity can be found in the jewish population. A quick look to a Falasha (from Ethiopia), an Ashkenaze (from Eastern Europe) or a Sefarate (from North African) (not to mention the Yemenite, the Iranian ect.) will prove you that there are few chance for them to have more than one common ancester.
That said, the very definition of a race is for me quite un-clear.
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:19 |
I posted this long tme ago but I think I should post it again
After jewish migration from Egypt to palastine(giant land) they established their kingdom of Israel in 1030 B.C. under Saul as a king.
then the kingdom flourished under David and his son Solomon(PBUT) the kingdom splited into tow part after Solomon death the northern part called Israel the southern calle Judah.
the Begining of jews suffer:-
the last kings of Israel paid tribute to Assyrians,the Assyrians destroyed the kingdom after the seige of Samaria 722-725 B.C,making Judah the sole remaining Hebrew kingdom.
The ten tribes were exiled to other parts of the Assyrian Empire and never heard from again in recorded history. A small group of people fled south to take refuge in Judah.
Kingdom of Judah lasted until 586 B.C,Jerusalem sacked twice the first in 597 B.C by Nebuchadrezzar after short rebelled king Jehoiachin took as prisonor with 1000 jews.
the second was the end of kingdom of Judah and the destruction of the Temple of Solomon,Daniel the prophet captured with 40000 jews.
In Roman era the First Jewish-Roamn war begun ,ended with the fall and destruction of Jerusalem.
In 115 the jews revolted in mesopotamia the revolt called kitos war ended with final Roman victory under emperor Trajan.
Bar Kokhbas revolt (132-135 CE) against the Roman Empire, also known as The Second Jewish-Roman War. was a second major rebellion by the Jews of Iudaea,Emperor Hadrian visited the ruins of Jerusalem. At first sympathetic towards the Jews, Hadrian promised to rebuild the city, but the Jews felt betrayed when they found out that his intentions were to rebuild the Jewish holiest city as a pagan metropolis, and a new pagan temple on the ruins of the Second Temple was to be dedicated to Jupiter.
After that the revolt begun and another dispora too.
Another massacre in the first Crusade,France ,Germany,Poland and the Spanish Inquisition.
and Adolf hitler's final solution which led to the Holocaust 1939-1945.
after all these wars,massacres,disporas,destruction and exiles do you think the jew as race still exist?
I don't think so and don't get me wrong, I think the jewish is a religion now like Islam or Christian have no limit for a race or special people.
As we see there are black jew,white,yellow and other then how we can say the jew is a race not a religion.
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:54 |
Being a minority for so long I think they often are set apart.
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erkut
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:03 |
Actually jews are a nation and jewism is their religion but there are some peoples who arent jew but belivs in jewism. Like old Hazar Trks or Karaimer Trks.
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Aster Thrax Eupator
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:38 |
But surely there is some kind of Genetic difference? I mean, modern Jews must still have SOME of the blood of the biblical hebrews?
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:39 |
I once saw a program which tried to find a genetic component in Jewish people. There apparently is a tribe somewhere deep in Africa which is Jewish and have a long and interesting legend/oral history about how they got where they were.
Interestingly, they found one. Don't know if this is true, so don't burn me for it, but they found out that abou 90% of Jewish men with the name Cohen has a specific common gene. They said that people called Cohen have their ancestry in the ancient priest class of the Jewish people, and the gene had been passed on because the Jews did not mix a great deal with others through history. And they found the same gene in this African tribe.
I don't remember if they did cross-examination to see how common the gene was amongst non-Jewish people, so I have no idea how reliable their theory was.
Has anybody heard this theory as well?
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 11:19 |
I've heard repetedly stories like this Aelgifu is refering to that Jews have a lot of genetic "specialties" suggesting they more or less all come from the same gene poll, namely the Hebrews. It is quite possible to an extend as they were culturally different from the rest of the populations they were living with. But the theory telling Cohen's name equals such or such gene is very problematic. Indeed as the name goes from father to son that would mean that, althought spread all over the world the Cohens manage to stay away during generations from any mixture is highly unlikely even if you consider that most Cohens were rabbis meaning highly religious and not likely to sleep around. Concerning the Cohens' wives one thing has to be said: beliving none or almost none of them staid faithful to their husband during over 3000 years is unrealistic when you know how beautyful Jewish girls tend to be.
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Decebal
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 12:56 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
I once saw a program which tried to find a genetic component in Jewish people. There apparently is a tribe somewhere deep in Africa which is Jewish and have a long and interesting legend/oral history about how they got where they were.
Interestingly, they found one. Don't know if this is true, so don't burn me for it, but they found out that abou 90% of Jewish men with the name Cohen has a specific common gene. They said that people called Cohen have their ancestry in the ancient priest class of the Jewish people, and the gene had been passed on because the Jews did not mix a great deal with others through history. And they found the same gene in this African tribe.
I don't remember if they did cross-examination to see how common the gene was amongst non-Jewish people, so I have no idea how reliable their theory was.
Has anybody heard this theory as well? |
Yes, they are called the Lemba jews...
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Digenis
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 15:27 |
It's probable that Jews have some common genetical ancestry,since they -usually-didnt mix with locals. A sign for this ,is some -not few-genetical disease common among Jews. These are obviously not of course a "curse" from God (medieval times),or a sign of impurity(Nazis) ,but a sign that people with the same origin used to mix with each other- So,common defective genes combined more often cause genetical diseases.
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erkut
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 19:04 |
Not the all jews some of them different like karaimers.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 21:02 |
My Aunts maiden name is Cohen.
She's anglican, not any jewish ancestry in her.
Otherwise, definitely a religion
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 03-Aug-2006 at 21:02
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 04:32 |
Whether there really is or ever was a Jewish race/ethnic group/tribe or not is irrelevant to the question.
The word 'Jew' is used to refer to someone alleged to belong to a genetic grouping. The word 'Jew' is also used to refer to someone holding a certain set of religious beliefs.
Like the word 'Sikh', it is therefore both a genetic term and a religious term. Whether the genetic group or the religion actually exist or not is irrelevant.
The word 'Lilliput' refers to a country and the word 'Lilliputian' to a race of people. That they are imaginary is irrelevant to the linguistic usage.
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Balaam
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Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 09:46 |
So the word 'Jew' is used to refer to both a race and religion, ah that has cleared up alot of things for me
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 05:07 |
Once upon a time, of course, race and religion tended to be synonymous. You believed what your parents and family believed, which is what the rest of the tribe believed.
That's even true in the classical world, when at one time 'Greek', 'Persian', 'Roman' and 'Egyptian' all referred to peoples and to 'their' religions. I guess the two started to get separated in the aftermath of the Alexandrian empire, and during the Roman empire, especially after the adoption of Mithraism and Christianity, which were possibly the first two religions to profess themelves as being for all peoples.
(I won't argue that 'first' if someone comes up with something earlier.)
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malizai_
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Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 15:32 |
The term jew is like a car that can also span out wings and begin to fly.
It has too be used relatively.
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Exarchus
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Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 16:44 |
They are the chosen ones, so they're a race (sarcasm).
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erkut
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Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 17:10 |
Originally posted by Exarchus
They are the chosen ones, so they're a race (sarcasm). |
Funny! (sarcasm).
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Svantoretro
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Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 23:58 |
As I understand it from an article written by a Jew, you are correct...it is both a race, and a religion.
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Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 01:17 |
Jews are caucasoids. Jews are also Negroids. So no its not a race.
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