Jews - race or religion
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
Forum Discription: All aspects of world history, especially topics that span across many regions or periods
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13748
Printed Date: 27-Apr-2024 at 15:26
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Topic: Jews - race or religion
Posted By: Balaam
Subject: Jews - race or religion
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 06:52
| This is a topic I have often thought about and have asked several people and looked at a few different websites and to me they are both a religion and race and to my personal opinion I believe they are a religion because you can convert into Judaism and such so I ask for your opinions on whether a Jew is somebody from a religion or a certain country. |
Replies:
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:18
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The Hebrew used to be a tribe (ethny in modern terms) but the genetic unity of such a tribe is gone for long. Historically we can be sur that there were at least two different types of Hebrews as soon as the third century BC. On the one hand the Hebrew in Palestine and on the other those abroad (Egypt and Greece mainly). It all changed in 70 AD when the Hebrew were fired by the Romans. Since then no genetic unity can be found in the jewish population. A quick look to a Falasha (from Ethiopia), an Ashkenaze (from Eastern Europe) or a Sefarate (from North African) (not to mention the Yemenite, the Iranian ect.) will prove you that there are few chance for them to have more than one common ancester. That said, the very definition of a race is for me quite un-clear. M. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Ahmed The Fighter
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:19
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I posted this long tme ago but I think I should post it again
------------- "May the eyes of cowards never sleep" Khalid Bin Walid 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 07:54
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Being a minority for so long I think they often are set apart. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 09:03
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Actually jews are a nation and jewism is their religion but there are some peoples who arent jew but belivs in jewism. Like old Hazar Türks or Karaimer Türks. ------------- |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:38
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But surely there is some kind of Genetic difference? I mean, modern Jews must still have SOME of the blood of the biblical hebrews? ------------- |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 10:39
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I once saw a program which tried to find a genetic component in Jewish people. There apparently is a tribe somewhere deep in Africa which is Jewish and have a long and interesting legend/oral history about how they got where they were.
Interestingly, they found one. Don't know if this is true, so don't burn me for it, but they found out that abou 90% of Jewish men with the name Cohen has a specific common gene. They said that people called Cohen have their ancestry in the ancient priest class of the Jewish people, and the gene had been passed on because the Jews did not mix a great deal with others through history. And they found the same gene in this African tribe.
I don't remember if they did cross-examination to see how common the gene was amongst non-Jewish people, so I have no idea how reliable their theory was.
Has anybody heard this theory as well? ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Maharbbal
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 11:19
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I've heard repetedly stories like this Aelgifu is refering to that Jews have a lot of genetic "specialties" suggesting they more or less all come from the same gene poll, namely the Hebrews. It is quite possible to an extend as they were culturally different from the rest of the populations they were living with. But the theory telling Cohen's name equals such or such gene is very problematic. Indeed as the name goes from father to son that would mean that, althought spread all over the world the Cohens manage to stay away during generations from any mixture is highly unlikely even if you consider that most Cohens were rabbis meaning highly religious and not likely to sleep around. Concerning the Cohens' wives one thing has to be said: beliving none or almost none of them staid faithful to their husband during over 3000 years is unrealistic when you know how beautyful Jewish girls tend to be. M. ------------- I am a free donkey! |
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 12:56
Yes, they are called the Lemba jews...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Digenis
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 15:27
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It's probable that Jews have some common genetical ancestry,since they -usually-didnt mix with locals. A sign for this ,is some -not few-genetical disease common among Jews. These are obviously not of course a "curse" from God (medieval times),or a sign of impurity(Nazis) ,but a sign that people with the same origin used to mix with each other- So,common defective genes combined more often cause genetical diseases. ------------- |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 19:04
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Not the all jews some of them different like karaimers. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 21:02
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My Aunts maiden name is Cohen. She's anglican, not any jewish ancestry in her. Otherwise, definitely a religion ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 04:32
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Whether there really is or ever was a Jewish race/ethnic group/tribe or not is irrelevant to the question.
The word 'Jew' is used to refer to someone alleged to belong to a genetic grouping. The word 'Jew' is also used to refer to someone holding a certain set of religious beliefs.
Like the word 'Sikh', it is therefore both a genetic term and a religious term. Whether the genetic group or the religion actually exist or not is irrelevant.
The word 'Lilliput' refers to a country and the word 'Lilliputian' to a race of people. That they are imaginary is irrelevant to the linguistic usage.
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Posted By: Balaam
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 09:46
| So the word 'Jew' is used to refer to both a race and religion, ah that has cleared up alot of things for me |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 05:07
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Once upon a time, of course, race and religion tended to be synonymous. You believed what your parents and family believed, which is what the rest of the tribe believed.
That's even true in the classical world, when at one time 'Greek', 'Persian', 'Roman' and 'Egyptian' all referred to peoples and to 'their' religions. I guess the two started to get separated in the aftermath of the Alexandrian empire, and during the Roman empire, especially after the adoption of Mithraism and Christianity, which were possibly the first two religions to profess themelves as being for all peoples.
(I won't argue that 'first' if someone comes up with something earlier.) ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 15:32
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The term jew is like a car that can also span out wings and begin to fly.
It has too be used relatively. ------------- |
Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 16:44
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They are the chosen ones, so they're a race (sarcasm).
------------- Vae victis! |
Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 17:10
Funny! (sarcasm). ------------- |
Posted By: Svantoretro
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 23:58
| As I understand it from an article written by a Jew, you are correct...it is both a race, and a religion. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 01:17
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Jews are caucasoids. Jews are also Negroids. So no its not a race.
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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 10:35
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As the man says,
Most Jews are Caucasoid, many Negroid, some Mongloid, quite a few mixed and who's to say there isn't the odd Australoid.
There is Baal teshuva Judaism, Haredi Judaism, Rabbinical Judaism, Liberal Judaism, Reform Judaism, Kabbalah, to name but a few.
I think the answer is, Judaism in neither 'a' race nor 'a' religeon. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 19:17
| jew's think race because themselves holy book's racist. |
Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 19:35
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That is true, the Old Testament is very racial supremacist ("We, God's 'Chosen People' have a right to rape, plunder, and murder other peoples as we wish.") However, most Jews are not racists.
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Posted By: PrznKonectoid
Date Posted: 07-Aug-2006 at 22:31
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The fact that some Jews are partially negroid is not in dispute, but by and large jews are Caucasiod. Even some of the Negroid jews retain partial Hebrew blood (like the Lemba).
As a people the Jews generally have tended not to mix with local populations, therefore retaining most of their genetics. Of course there has there been some intermixing, some genetic sharing, yeah. But that goes for any race, by and large the gene pool of most Jews (with a few exceptions) has remain limited and not much intermixing.
Of course various Jewish populations like the Ashkenazi and the Mizrahi, and the Sephardic have tended to slight genetic drift living apart for thousands of years, but these differences are disappearing in Israel where they are mixing once again. ------------- Want to know more on ancient Iran? http://www.parsaworld.com - http://www.parsaworld.com or join our forums FORUM |
Posted By: Nestorian
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 00:04
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Wouldn't the enemies of Israel love to define Judaism as a religion and not a race for their own purposes. sO WHAT is our definition of race then? Genetic commonality? My goodness, everyone is mixed and Israel is no exception, and yet, they are not a race? Plus, has anyone actually got a serious study on Jewish genetics studies? The Old Testament is a racist book?
Where does is it say rape is acceptable? Or plunder?
As for warfare, you have a point? Its not like the Old Testatment is the only religious book sanctioning war is it? And yet, it is seen as a racist book.
Despite the fact that Israel's greatest King, King David was not a pure Hebrew but a quarter Moabite...yes, a Moabite, another of Israel's enemies. And, according to the belief that Messiah will descend from King David, that means the Jewish Messiah is not purely Hebrew either.
Moreover, the Torah makes provision for war, and for peace as well. It only appears that way if you selectively read certain passages.
Look at it this way, a person selectively reading the Quran would think its a violent religion, but unless they read it in its entirety, they would not get an accurate picture. So to OghuzKhan, watch your comments....
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Posted By: askimayturan
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 01:39
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Judaism is a religion however, I believe that the lines have become blurry between religion and ethnicity. The term being Jewish has become a norm in our societies but in reality, it is not a ethnic term. The term Jewish can really only apply to one who is a Jew. But, with many terms used in our societies, the real meaning has become lost. In closing, I believe that being a Jew, is a religious ascribed term and being Jewish is not an ethnic title. Ultimately, many individuals do apply the term of Jewish to their ethnicity and there is definitely no harm in that. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 05:01
Good point declaring people in this debate should use scientific evidence not hypothesis and mysticism.
So you presumably base the claim King David existed on scientific evidence not mysticism too?
------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: reginathenative
Date Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:44
In my opinion, there is too much emphasis on what we are and what we should call ourselves.. yes in reality that is probably easy to say.. but would there be less wars??? would there be less chaos in the world?? if we didnt have such need for ethnic identity??? yes i know thats unrealistic.. but just think if there was less of that... i am considered DNA wise, at least 50 percent native indian.... but for me and like all others in the world.. the question of what i am seems to be important.. and yes im aware what we are is still important and an issue... Ultimately, for the people in the world who are Jews or Jewish.., im sure its a very important question.. And yes, I am proud to be able to say im at least 50 percent apache indian... proven by DNA testing... Just a thought..
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Posted By: The Chargemaster
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 05:40
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Jews - race or religion? Religion, but not a race. ------------- |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 21:44
In point of fact Israel is a 'nation/state' contextualy in 20th-21st century terms. Jews... perse... are not a nation.... but those who proscribe to Judaism ie. a religious belief sytem.
Earlier posters imo... are correct ethnicaly speaking or more properly ethnocentricaly ....'jews' do not exsist as a seperate race...ie. in biological terms ....caucasoid..mogoloid..negroid etc...........they may inndividualy be members of those classifcations but according to my understanding not a seperat one of their own.
many thousands are from different nations and places. That is not to say that at one time the jews of the past....and to a much lesser degree..the minuscule number that were sucessful in surviving thru the Roman and later times (that remained in Palestine and propogated their familal lines.... )couldn't claim an ethnic designation ie..Semitic..they could.....but as earlier pointed out thats long past.
And altho sometime confusing there is more to ethnicity and bio-racial types then meet the eye...it's also unfortunately a primary reason why there has been such tribulation imo in the past.
best
CV ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Timotheus
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 22:06
They are both. No need to make a false dichotomy 
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 07:34
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Jews defined post WW2, especially for immigration purposes by the State of Israel.----------If u can be gassed AS a jew, than u r a jew. Fair point. ------------- |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2006 at 10:27
nothing false about it...jews who live and practice their faith in Israeli are Israeli citzens and jewish ie. proscribers to that faith... as are jews living in America...proscribing to that faith...but they are not citzens of both nation states unless provided by law. Arabic-ethnic Israeli citizens who practice Islam in Israel are not jews...but they are Israeli's. As are christain Druze in another contex.. Christain... yet living as Lebabnese citizens....in a country that predominates Islamic citizens.
my advice and opinion is to be wary of misinterpreting states and the composition of their ethnic religious components with states .. themselves...in point of fact the only real such state imo... that can make this claim ...
less the Islamic states themselves... and even here there are exceptions..eg. minority christains and jews living in Syria.. IS ROME....and the Roman Catholic church.
------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Lorenzo
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 00:04
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the word hebrew means 'other side of the flood', referring to the Euphrates basin. that they have kept their ethnic, national, and religious identity throughout their diaspora as well as they have given the obsticles they have endured is unique in human history. ------------- you want truth? I'll give you truth- taco bell isn't real mexican food |